BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Par

[Clark-Kent]

Me too. I've scoffed at people who say things like "That movie was so bad that I just walked out of the theater!" before because it seems so over-dramatic (and who wants to waste $14 by walking out?!), but dammit, I will walk out if we get that awful story in live action.

The superman-Lois relationship in BvS was a highlight. I really hope they aren't setting that up so they can kill her to produce dictator supes.

Dictator Supes under Darkseid that gets defeated by JL. Imagine how that would go over.

 

[egg]

Dictator Supes under Darkseid that gets defeated by JL. Imagine how that would go over.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Me too. I've scoffed at people who say things like "That movie was so bad that I just walked out of the theater!" before because it seems so over-dramatic (and who wants to waste $14 by walking out?!), but dammit, I will walk out if we get that awful story in live action.

The superman-Lois relationship in BvS was a highlight. I really hope they aren't setting that up so they can kill her to produce dictator supes.

I certainly wouldn't want that, either. A friend of mine posits that the Knightmare sequence was kind of an alternate future. I hope that's the case, and we don't end up getting that, because I would not like that either. But they certainly have borrowed a lot from it in that Knightmare sequence. Supes even put his hand through Batman's chest like he did Joker in Injustice.

I like to think they have more sense than to actually go there, though.

 

[egg]

i figure they were setting up that after he dies, he comes back darker. probably is going to be under darkseid's control. people will notice superman doesn't seem quite right, and they have to figure out how to truly bring him back.

 

[MrsKent26]

I always took it as, trying to live up to the symbol they need him to be. He's always wearing a look of compassion and gentle humility, but not smiling. That's what I see, anyway. Henry does a lot with his eyes.

No homo.

He does! That's what I always say and it's a very good thing for this iteration.

Still, I want to see what he could do with more lines. Combine some inspiring/calming superman talk with that facial acting? Magic.

 

[Clark-Kent]

i figure they were setting up that after he dies, he comes back darker. probably is going to be under darkseid's control. people will notice superman doesn't seem quite right, and they have to figure out how to truly bring him back.

Superman already had to overcome the MOS mess. Imagine how bad it would be overcoming that he was being used as a weapon by Darkseid. "Guys you can trust me, I'm ok now! Just grumpy without my coffee today is all. Nobody is gonna die."

 

[Poni_Boy]

i figure they were setting up that after he dies, he comes back darker. probably is going to be under darkseid's control. people will notice superman doesn't seem quite right, and they have to figure out how to truly bring him back.

Yep. Which explains the "Lois is the key" thing. Pretty much what I'm expecting from JL part 1

 

[Clark-Kent]

He does! That's what I always say and it's a very good thing for this iteration.

Still, I want to see what he could do with more lines. Combine some inspiring/calming superman talk with that facial acting? Magic.

No doubt Cavill is great for the role. It's just a matter of the right material and direction to fully realize that greatness. Cavill, RDJ, and now Affleck I'd add are like perfect personifications. They just ALL need the right material.

 

[BatLobster]

The fact that Terrio said JL1 will be lighter in tone makes me think they won't progress the story into the Injustice timeline they hinted at, at least not in the next film.

However, I think that'll always be on the table. An Injustice story arc puts Batman into the main protagonist type of role, and we know how comfortable WB is with that.

Also, from a screenwriting perspective...you'd think the Knightmare vision has to get some sort of payoff at some point, otherwise it ends up feeling even more random. Then again, servicing anything in BvS may not be a huge priority anymore.

 

[MrsKent26]

I certainly wouldn't want that, either. A friend of mine posits that the Knightmare sequence was kind of an alternate future. I hope that's the case, and we don't end up getting that, because I would not like that either. But they certainly have borrowed a lot from it in that Knightmare sequence. Supes even put his hand through Batman's chest like he did Joker in Injustice.

I like to think they have more sense than to actually go there, though.

I'd like to think that too, but you were right when you said Snyder has no fear of "going there." It's both a good and a bad thing.

i figure they were setting up that after he dies, he comes back darker. probably is going to be under darkseid's control. people will notice superman doesn't seem quite right, and they have to figure out how to truly bring him back.

Gotta admit, I don't like that either.

 

[matt47]

God damn it that suit is beautiful.

 

[egg]

Yep. Which explains the "Lois is the key" thing. Pretty much what I'm expecting from JL part 1

i agree. so probably in jl she is the only way to get superman back, and when she dies in jl he has lost himself to the darkness. so essentially the flash goes through time to get to the right part and ends up too early. he gives a warning while he comes through. likely he will find her in another time warp event, and they save lois the second time around which will then save superman or something like that.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

He does! That's what I always say and it's a very good thing for this iteration.

Still, I want to see what he could do with more lines. Combine some inspiring/calming superman talk with that facial acting? Magic.

Oh yeah, if he got to say some calming words while doing that thing he does, that'd be the perfectest Superman to ever Superman. I grew up with Chris Reeve's Superman, I liked SR okay but thought Routh wasn't quite right. Henry, Henry is the perfect Superman.

(As an aside, why is that smiley called mnm? It's clearly the 7Up Cool Spot! LOL!)

 

[Marvin]

He loves being Clark and resents being Superman. That's the vibe I get from these movies. He'd be much happier with no powers living a normal life. That's... just nonsensical for this character. It's the Bruce Wayne/Rachel Dawes dynamic cranked up to 11

Seems more like STM II actually. Only again, less selfish and more grounded.

i figure they were setting up that after he dies, he comes back darker. probably is going to be under darkseid's control. people will notice superman doesn't seem quite right, and they have to figure out how to truly bring him back.

Even if that makes logical organic sense, it might even be interesting...it simply doesn't matter. Quality has given way to preference at this point. Even lower reviews for it not being the superman, even if the pacing and acting and everything was supposedly on point. Everyonoe seemingly knows the source material, the easiest move is to just give it to them and make the money and take whatever victory that is artistically. It's far more sustainable, or atleast that's what the headlines will read as.

 

[Poni_Boy]

i agree. so probably in jl she is the only way to get superman back, and when she dies in jl he has lost himself to the darkness. so essentially the flash goes through time to get to the right part and ends up too early. he gives a warning while he comes through. likely he will find her in another time warp event, and they save lois the second time around which will then save superman or something like that.

I have a feeling she'll get killed off during the Darkseid invasion. Then, yeah, followed by what you said. It feels like that's exactly what they're doing. Then have "normal" Superman back for JL part 2 for the Darkseid fight

 

[The Shape]

Right. The scenes with Lois are fine. But those were few and far between. His best qualities have to be given a chance to shine outside of that relationship. It can't just be Lois against the world. I'm honest-to-God terrified that they're setting up some type of Injustice storyline. That may be the straw that breaks the camel's back for me.

And I think it will be easier and more natural for those qualities to be shown more often moving forward, now that Superman won't be getting **** on and attacked from all angles, as he was in BvS.

As for an Injustice-esque storyline, it seems like something that may or may not happen further down the line. I'm not super-opposed to it because BvS indicates that, if Superman ever does "turn" like that, it will be fueled by Darkseid (and also probably a pretty temporary plotline), whereas Superman just kind of snaps on his own in the Injustice game and everything goes bonkers.

Some of this relates to what we're talking about and some doesn't, but I really like what Mark Hughes had to say about the importance of Lois to Clark in BvS, and particularly how the Pa Kent vision relates to it.

The question is simple: will the cynical world change him (the way Batman was changed by it), or will he change the cynical world?

Clark leaves, to think and explore his own heart and worldview. A Superman forced to confront his idealism amid a cynical world is not an abandonment of the traditional characterization, it is a reinforcement of it. It shows that yes, Superman can have his beliefs and idealism challenged, and in the end even in the face of a world that doesn’t want to change Superman will refuse to give up on us. In Batman v Superman, he wonders about the consequences of his actions and whether it is possible to stand for absolute good when the outcomes can often inevitably created complicated side effects.

When Clark sees his human father, Jonathan Kent, we get a story about how faced with a rising flood threatening to wipe out the family, Jonathan helped dig a trench and block the floodwater’s path. He was a hero for those actions, he saved the family farm, but the digging redirected the floodwater to another farm and destroyed it. Remember that this is in Clark’s mind and memory, so when he asks his father if he ever got over the bad dreams about the unintended consequences, Clark already knows the answer, because this conversation is all about Clark talking to himself. His father says yes, he was able to live with the consequences of his actions because he found faith again when he met Martha.

What is this about? It’s pretty straightforward, really — Jonathan couldn’t refuse to act, to save his family, and he did so without any expectation that saving his family would create a flood of action elsewhere that harmed other people. The flood did that damage, not Jonathan, and all he could do – all any of us can do — is act to do good and save people when we see it. If we know possible consequences, then we must think through our actions and make sure to consider those consequences and how to either divert them or live with them and continue having faith. Love, and having a life to live that shows us why we must act to do good, helps us have faith in ourselves and in the world. Because however dark the world becomes, however hard it can be to accept consequences of our actions when we know we’re doing the right thing but the world will blame us for it, we can have someone who makes it all worthwhile, someone who represents the good we know exists in this world. And that good is always, always worth fighting for.

Superman knows he cannot give up, knows he must always act and use his powers for good, and knows that Lois is the love of his life and represents all of the people who do look to him as a symbol of hope and goodness in the world. It is a simple message, but it resonates as clearly to me as anything in the film. So he comes back, and his return coincides with Lex putting his final evil scheme into motion. Lois is thrown off the building, but Superman is already back in town and saves her. He has come back, and immediately his choice to return presents him with a final challenge to his idealism — his mother will die unless he kills Batman.

It seems an impossible choice, and he remarks that no one stays good in this world, but this is clearly not literal since we see his true intention is to convince Batman to help him. He never tries to kill Batman, making it clear by literally saying it out-loud. In the end, he will die trying to convince Batman to help save Martha, rather than do Lex Luthor’s bidding and murder a hero he (Superman) has finally come to understand as a good man being corrupted by a cynical world (something Superman has been struggling with himself, which is why he now understands Batman).

 

[Clark-Kent]

i agree. so probably in jl she is the only way to get superman back, and when she dies in jl he has lost himself to the darkness. so essentially the flash goes through time to get to the right part and ends up too early. he gives a warning while he comes through. likely he will find her in another time warp event, and they save lois the second time around which will then save superman or something like that.

I have a feeling she'll get killed off during the Darkseid invasion. Then, yeah, followed by what you said. It feels like that's exactly what they're doing. Then have "normal" Superman back for JL part 2 for the Darkseid fight

Well I feel early spoiled now. I suppose I should have been smart enough to piece that second part together that Flash screaming in BvS about being early involved him trying to fix what went wrong with her death. Well, and fix Superman so he can defeat Darkseid of course

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Superman already had to overcome the MOS mess. Imagine how bad it would be overcoming that he was being used as a weapon by Darkseid. "Guys you can trust me, I'm ok now! Just grumpy without my coffee today is all. Nobody is gonna die."

Yeah, if they went there it would totally destroy anything that these two films might have built for Superman. They'd be fools to do it.

The fact that Terrio said JL1 will be lighter in tone makes me think they won't progress the story into the Injustice timeline they hinted at, at least not in the next film.

That's right, that's a good sign.

However, I think that'll always be on the table. An Injustice story arc puts Batman into the main protagonist type of role, and we know how comfortable WB is with that.

Well, Batsy makes them the good money. They haven't really found the handle on Supes yet. That's true. But to throw Supes away in order to do it would be a huge mistake and would basically torpedo the DCEU, so I have to believe they aren't boneheaded enough to do that.

Also, from a screenwriting perspective...you'd think the Knightmare vision has to get some sort of payoff at some point, otherwise it ends up feeling even more random. Then again, servicing anything in BvS may not be a huge priority anymore.

On the one hand, yes, but remember Snyder added that in after the fact, so it doesn't mean there was a long-term plan. Also, Flash kept saying he was too soon. What if he even hit the wrong timeline?

Bottom line, given the reception to this movie, they've got to be looking at a long-term plan that gets them where they want to be. So yeah, even if there was any thought of doing Injustice, I certainly can't see them doing that now.

I'd like to think that too, but you were right when you said Snyder has no fear of "going there." It's both a good and a bad thing.

He may be on a bit of a leash now, though.

Gotta admit, I don't like that either.

Nor do I. I'm fine with what they've done with Superman so far, but to push him to the dark side in ANY capacity after two films of him not being a fully-formed Superman? That would kill it all. For me, and for the entire audience, and for Warner's once and for all.

 

[Wylie Times]

That's fair. Nobody said anyone has to like it. I just prefer intellectual honesty - like what you just used. Because that's real. You don't like his take, that's fair. That's legit. People calling it a crappy movie when what they mean is they didn't like it, that's what galls me. Because those aren't the same thing.

Maybe it's my background in art, because I was always taught in class that when you give somebody feedback on their work, you look at it with an eye to the rules that you have learned, and the skill on display, and you make sure to apply those fairly. That's how I try to approach these things.

Well here's the thing.

I actually enjoyed this much more than Man Of Steel, but I think this movie is way worse than Man of Steel from a technical standpoint.

From this movie I actually got some cool visuals and I thought Ben Affleck was great as Batman. The problems I have with the film is the bad script, the editing, and the bad CGI near the end.

To me Man of Steel was virtually joyless and also had a few script problems (Pa Kent's death, the way they handled Supes killing Zod), but overall it was a better made film and I can totally understand why other people like it.

Hell, I get why some people like Superman V Batman, but the film is VERY flawed. It's not the worst film ever made, it's not even the worst superhero film ever made. That's what's so frustrating to a lot of people, it could have been a very good movie with a few changes here and there. There' a good movie buried under a bad script and bad editing. I don't think it's all Snyder's fault, but he definitely deserves some of the blame along with the screenwriters and the execs at WB that clearly (IMO) meddled with this film.

The reason you see such long ongoing debates about this film is because people will complain about a plot hole or how something in the film doesn't work and 5 or 6 people will rush in and basically call the folks who made the criticism stupid ("You don't understand the movie", "You clearly weren't paying attention") or say they're nitpicking despite the fact that half of the people who saw the movie have the exact same complaints.

 

[Clark-Kent]

Well here's the thing.

I actually enjoyed this much more than Man Of Steel, but I think this movie is way worse than Man of Steel from a technical standpoint.

From this movie I actually got some cool visuals and I thought Ben Affleck was great as Batman. The problems I have with the film is the bad script, the editing, and the bad CGI near the end.

To me Man of Steel was virtually joyless and also had a few script problems (Pa Kent's death, the way they handled Supes killing Zod), but overall it was a better made film and I can totally understand why other people like it.

Hell, I get why some people like Superman V Batman, but the film is VERY flawed. It's not the worst film ever made, it's not even the worst superhero film ever made. That's what's so frustrating to a lot of people, it could have been a very good movie with a few changes here and there. There' a good movie buried under a bad script and bad editing. I don't think it's all Snyder's fault, but he definitely deserves some of the blame along with the screenwriters and the execs at WB that clearly (IMO) meddled with this film.

The reason you see such long ongoing debates about this film is because people will complain about a plot hole or how something in the film doesn't work and 5 or 6 people will rush in and basically call the folks who made the criticism stupid ("You don't understand the movie", "You clearly weren't paying attention") or say they're nitpicking despite the fact that half of the people who saw the movie have the exact same complaints.

Worthy observations

 

[MrsKent26]

Oh yeah, if he got to say some calming words while doing that thing he does, that'd be the perfectest Superman to ever Superman. I grew up with Chris Reeve's Superman, I liked SR okay but thought Routh wasn't quite right. Henry, Henry is the perfect Superman.

(As an aside, why is that smiley called mnm? It's clearly the 7Up Cool Spot! LOL!)

I agree. Which is why I really want good material for him now. Don't waste him, Snyder!

Even if that makes logical organic sense, it might even be interesting...it simply doesn't matter. Quality has given way to preference at this point. Even lower reviews for it not being the superman, even if the pacing and acting and everything was supposedly on point. Everyonoe seemingly knows the source material, the easiest move is to just give it to them and make the money and take whatever victory that is artistically. It's far more sustainable, or atleast that's what the headlines will read as.

The thing though...is that is doesn't make that much organic sense. Superman is down. He may not even be present for the initial formation of the JL, if Snyder's comments are any indication. They don't know him from Adam, at this point. Even batman has only known him for a short while (during most of that time, he wanted to kill supes). His personality isn't as fleshed out as it could be either. So what we're left with is a bunch of people who don't know superman trying to get him to act like his old self, whom they don't know. And the audience, who doesn't know him that well either, gets more time with a superman that is not acting like himself. He becomes a temporary villain and yet...we're supposed to believe he's the greatest (or so batman will claim when he tries to ban the league together to fight anti-supes).

Sorry, that was negative as all get-out. But I just really don't like this idea of brain-washed/controlled/sinister supes immediately following a movie for which one of the chief complaints was about superman's lack of character/dialogue.

 

[Supernova]

Injustice works simply as a what if 6 hour video game, not a feature film.

 

[The Shape]

He loves being Clark and resents being Superman. That's the vibe I get from these movies.

How does he resent being Superman?

He'd be much happier with no powers living a normal life.

This can be said of virtually any superhero. Whether or not they are shown as longing for a "normal" life, most of them don't exactly have it so easy as superheroes, do they? They go through tough **** that we don't/can't go through alone. That's why they're superheroes.

That's... just nonsensical for this character. It's the Bruce Wayne/Rachel Dawes dynamic cranked up to 11

It's actually nothing like that. Clark never once says or indicates that he wants to give up being Superman to be with Lois, or that he wants to give up being Superman at all for any reason. Struggling with the weight of a burden, questioning his role in society, feeling guilty that he can't save everyone -- not the same as desperately wanting to hang up his cape for a woman.

If anything, the film points to Lois being an inspiration for Clark to want to be Superman. Conversely, it's LOIS who wonders whether Clark can love her and also be Superman at the same time.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

The reason you see such long ongoing debates about this film is because people will complain about a plot hole or how something in the film doesn't work and 5 or 6 people will rush in and basically call the folks who made the criticism stupid ("You don't understand the movie", "You clearly weren't paying attention") or say they're nitpicking despite the fact that half of the people who saw the movie have the exact same complaints.

The trouble for me, and certain others with me, is that most of the complaints we've seen so far are pretty easily refuted as anything other than matters of personal preference. I had two or three worries with the film when I first saw it, and I can overlook them and enjoy the hell out of the movie, but I know those things are there. However all of my complaints could, possibly, be corrected by the extended cut. I will find out eventually. But the script, for instance, looks pretty solid to me. It's only obvious flaws, to me, are the fact that we don't know how Lex knows most of what he knows, and the JLA stuff seems out of place.

But the Knightmare sequence was Zack's addition, not Terrio's, and things like the placement of Wondy checking her email is a matter of the edit, and the missing info on how Lex knows stuff, could very easily be an artifact of the half-hour they cut out. Those are literally the ONLY issues I have with the movie. I haven't seen a single other complaint that comes down to anything other than personal taste.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I agree. Which is why I really want good material for him now. Don't waste him, Snyder!

Agreed, I really hope JLA Superman is a more fully-realized Superman.

The thing though...is that is doesn't make that much organic sense. Superman is down. He may not even be present for the initial formation of the JL, if Snyder's comments are any indication. They don't know him from Adam, at this point. Even batman has only known him for a short while (during most of that time, he wanted to kill supes). His personality isn't as fleshed out as it could be either. So what we're left with is a bunch of people who don't know superman trying to get him to act like his old self, whom they don't know. And the audience, who doesn't know him that well either, gets more time with a superman that is not acting like himself. He becomes a temporary villain and yet...we're supposed to believe he's the greatest (or so batman will claim when he tries to ban the league together to fight anti-supes).

Oh I think Marvin agrees with most of that, he said it would be interesting but ultimately he thinks it won't happen because Warners has to know it would be suicide to do it.

Sorry, that was negative as all get-out. But I just really don't like this idea of brain-washed/controlled/sinister supes immediately following a movie for which one of the chief complaints was about superman's lack of character/dialogue.

I think we're all with you on this one, and certainly no need to apologize in any case.