BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 290

[NeoRanger]

you missed the symbolism in that? and you call yourself a Batfan?

It was a dream sequence and it represented the dark place Bruce fell into when his parents were killed and how becoming Batman brought him out of that place. I took "that dark place" to symbolize thoughts of suicide. Becoming Batman saved his life.

C'mon, don't be rude.

That aside, I interpreted the symbolism somewhat differently, but I always do with Batman; him running away from the funeral is running away from the pain he can't deal with and away from home, then dropping to the cave, underneath the surface world, where he finds something that helps him deal and provides a new home for him. That home, of course, isn't the cave itself, it's Batman. It's the moment he stops being Bruce and he becomes something else, darker, away from the light of the world above.

Why did they even fight Batman now? Because Lex had his mom? Why didn't Superman tell Batman about his mom after tossing him into the batsignal. Instead he says "Stay down, if I wanted it you'd be dead already." But thats something he would say if they were fighting because of an idealogical clashand he's trying to neutralize him. Why toss the guy you need help from into the batsignal?

He didn't tell him, because plot convenience. These tend to happen, they're a perfectly valid way to make movies and the best of them have them.

Why toss the guy into the Batsignal? It's a show of power. It's showing him that he can't win this and he should shut up and listen to him for a moment.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Why did they even fight Batman now? Because Lex had his mom? Why didn't Superman tell Batman about his mom after tossing him into the batsignal. Instead he says "Stay down, if I wanted it you'd be dead already." But thats something he would say if they were fighting because of an idealogical clashand he's trying to neutralize him. Why toss the guy you need help from into the batsignal?

Because he's torn - when he flies off after speaking to Lois, you can see that he's in two minds about what he's going there to do. Is he going there to ask for Bruce's help? Or is he going there to kill him?

Then when he arrives, he starts trying to tell him what's going on, but he just keeps being attacked. After throwing him into the bat signal, he's frustrated and that line is a reference to the fact he is using all his will power to stop himself from just doing what Lex wants and save his mother's life in the process.

The further into the fight he gets, the less he thinks this is a man who even WOULD help him, so he gives up trying to reason with him. He's saying things like 'your not a man'... you can see why Supes at this point, not knowing Bruce is actually a good guy down deep, gives up on trying to plead for his help and just focuses on trying to stop him.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

Without the threat on his mothers life, Superman would have gone to him, and taken him in to the police. There would have been no fight.

The only reason Batman was able to win is because Superman is fighting an internal battle of whether or not to kill him. It is because he is holding back and knows if he doesn't act, his mother will be killed.

Take that out of the equation, and there would have been no window for Bruce to get a shot in. Supes could have grabbed him at super speed, flew off with him and dumped him at the police station with his mask off.

Yeah but that would've been far more interesting I think. A Superman that goes after Batman to take him down without killing him no holds barred.

Seeing how Batman prepared for that. Thats what I thought the movie was gonna be about. Or the fight at least.

Your telling me there was no possible way for Supes to let Bats know his mom was in danger than engaging in a fistfight he knew he couldn't go all out in ?

Why not jus keep your distance and shout: "Hey bats, I really don't have time for this, Lex has my mom and wants me to kill you, wanna help me find her?"

Instead he fights him, why?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

See my above response.

 

[Cobblepot]

I think I just prefer a story where Superman and Batman are fighting because their idealogies clash. Where Batman wants to keep dealing with crime his way and provokex Superman to a duel to try and neutralize him.

If that was the case Superman would have easily gotten the upperhand. Now Superman doesn't want to fight Batman, he want's to reason with him and reluctantly fights in self defense. He's holding back, much like he always does in the comics. In TDKR he holds back because he doesn't want to fight Bruce, in Hush because he's mind controlled etc..

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

I guess what I'm saying is the whole ma Kent thing with the horrible pictures should've never been in it in the first place.

These two should fight because they disagree.

Because Bats thinks Supes is too powerful a threathm to the world. And because Supes thinks Bats is a dangerous vigilante.

 

[Charlatan]

Yeah but that would've been far more interesting I think. A Superman that goes after Batman to take him down without killing him no holds barred.

Seeing how Batman prepared for that. Thats what I thought the movie was gonna be about. Or the fight at least.

Your twlling me there was no possible way for Supes to let Bats know his mom was in danger than engaging in a fistfight he knew he could go all out in ?

Why not jus keep your distance and shout: "Hey bats, I really don't have time for this, Lex has my mom and wants me to kill you, wanna help me find her?"

Instead he fights him, why?

Because then people would be whining that there was no BvS fight in the film at all that's why. Also Bats would automatically believe this alien? He had seen visions of him becoming a tyrant. He had seen that metahuman telling him that he was right about "him" and he needed to stop him.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I guess what I'm saying is the whole ma Kent thing with the horrible pictures should've never been in it in the first place.

These two should fight because they disagree.

Because Bats thinks Supes is too powerful a threathm to the world. And because Supes thinks Bats is a dangerous vigilante.

If that's what you would have preferred, that's fine. That's your subjective opinion.

It's not a flaw of the film though.

 

[Hurm...]

I think I just prefer a story where Superman and Batman are fighting because their idealogies clash. Where Batman wants to keep dealing with crime his way and provokex Superman to a duel to try and neutralize him.

And Superman goes to Batman to fight him because he warned him not to go to the light.

Why did they even fight Batman now? Because Lex had his mom? Why didn't Superman tell Batman about his mom after tossing him into the batsignal. Instead he says "Stay down, if I wanted it you'd be dead already." But thats something he would say if they were fighting because of an idealogical clashand he's trying to neutralize him. Why toss the guy you need help from into the batsignal?

Exactly. Superman's logic: "Let me beat the **** out of him before I ask for his help." The fight was beyond stupid.

 

[Cobblepot]

I guess what I'm saying is the whole ma Kent thing with the horrible pictures should've never been in it in the first place.

These two should fight because they disagree.

Because Bats thinks Supes is too powerful a threathm to the world. And because Supes thinks Bats is a dangerous vigilante.

Superman never fought Batman (in the comics) by his own free will. Batman did and that's essentially what we've got.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Exactly. Superman's logic: "Let me beat the **** out of him before I ask for his help." The fight was beyond stupid.

Do you have any thoughts on my explanation for that?

 

[Charlatan]

Domestic Box Office $170,100,000Details
International Box Office $254,000,000Details
Worldwide Box Office $424,100,000

http://www.the-numbers.com/movie/Batman-v-Superman-Dawn-of-Justice#tab=summary

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

If that was the case Superman would have easily gotten the upperhand. Now Superman doesn't want to fight Batman, he want's to reason with him and reluctantly fights in self defense. He's holding back, much like he always does in the comics. In TDKR he holds back because he doesn't want to fight Bruce, in Hush because he's mind controlled etc..

Again, I think I was just interested in seeing a Superman going after Batman without holding back. And a Batman that has prepared for that. Is it Batgod? Maybe a little.

I just think the V in BvS should stand for more than: Look! We are physically fighting.

I had hoped it also stood for: I don't agree with your ways. You're a menace and I have to take you down no matter the cost.

 

[Cobblepot]

They could have easily made a good movie just out of that and save Doomsday for the stand alone Superman. What we got was different, but BvS wasn't a bad movie.

 

[Mjölnir]

It would have been cool if they fought for no real reason with no real stakes?

The Batsignal is how they knew where to find Batman at that point. How Luthor knew.

No, it would have been cool if they actually did want to take each other down. If the movie had followed through on Superman showing signs of wanting to take Batman down, rather than discarding them when the fight was about to happen (apparently they cut out stuff regarding that as well, and kept footage less relevant to the main plot).

Instead we lost intensity by Superman instead being forced to confront Batman, instead of wanting to take him down in a clash of ideologies. What's worse is that since Superman didn't want to fight him he could have so easily avoided it. Batman was zero threat to him so he could have tried to talk to him more, or even forced him to listen. Batman is less than a child to him.

Instead we get a fight that really starts because Superman is annoyed and eventually runs a human being he sees as no threat through a building. That made me lose my emotional connection to the fight, so it was just a cool thing when it could have been incredibly intense.

Superman never fought Batman (in the comics) by his own free will. Batman did and that's essentially what we've got.

It's more powerful if he wants to fight him and, more importantly, the movie started to build that up, only to not use it when it came down to fighting.

Superman didn't act on anyone's behalf when he told Batman to stop. The same should go for the footage that should have been in the movie, where he researches Batman. They had the foundation to make these guys fully locked in.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Again, I think I was just interested in seeing a Superman going after Batman without holding back. And a Batman that has prepared for that. Is it Batgod? Maybe a little.

I just think the V in BvS should stand for more than: Look! We are physically fighting.

I had hoped it also stood for: I don't agree with your ways. You're a menace and I have to take you down no matter the cost.

The thing is, in this incarnation, their 'ways' aren't as far apart as they might be in the comics.

I think a fight based on 'you shouldn't kill or hurt the bad guys' would have felt highly hypocritical.

 

[Rapunzel]

This is interesting- I just got the Art of the Film book today, and it says this about the knightmare sequence: "as Bruce Wayne's concerns about the alien known as Superman blossom into outright fears, they begin to trouble his sleep with terrifying visions of a hellish world utterly dominated by the Man of Steel. Benevolent protector no more, Superman has become a despot who demands absolute obedience from his earthling subjects. Batman and a few loyal followers in a desert bunker are all that remain to fight back against the regime of this power-mad god."

So...the knightmare isn't an alternate future? No mention of Darkseid either, so I guess Supes isn't working for him? Interesting that there's no mention of the parademons or omega symbol.

 

[The Guard]

It's clearly Darkseid related. There are Parademons and fire pits.

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

Superman never fought Batman (in the comics) by his own free will. Batman did and that's essentially what we've got.

Thats another thing, I don't like what Snyder picks to adopt and not to adopt from the comics.

If ever there was a story for Superman to want to at least engage in a fight with Batman it was this one, comics be damned.

Thats why I said earlier. If he had conviction, that this was a dangerous criminal that needs to be taken down, now that'd be something.

It just so double, all of it. I feel we never really got to see the pay off of all of Clark Kents investigating into the bat vigilante.

 

[Rapunzel]

Again, I think I was just interested in seeing a Superman going after Batman without holding back. And a Batman that has prepared for that. Is it Batgod? Maybe a little.

I just think the V in BvS should stand for more than: Look! We are physically fighting.

I had hoped it also stood for: I don't agree with your ways. You're a menace and I have to take you down no matter the cost.

Umm....you do understand Superman would NEVER fight Bats without holding back, right? Cause Bats would be dead in seconds. Supes is supposed to be a guy who uses his powers wisely. It would take a lot for him to get physical when he doesn't have to. You know, cause he's so strong nobody stands a chance.

 

[Rapunzel]

It's clearly Darkseid related. There are Parademons and fire pits.

Oh I know. Which is why I found it interesting that the book makes no mention of those aspects. It's obvious.

 

[The Guard]

I don't think many people here understand that the fight was not a logical one. For Batman, it was the result of his pain and grief and trauma. And he was the instigator. Superman tried to end it ASAP. The film couldn't make this much clearer.

 

[kguillou]

Come on guys. Lets be honest. Every single time superheroes fight each other its for contrived reasons. CW is gonna be contrived too. In the comic, Captain America and Ironman could have easily avoided the entire conflict by talking it out but because people wanna see them fight, Cap was stubborn and hard headed and Tony Stark was a jerk, so they had to fight.

I actually like how Supes was like " Bruce, calm your **** and listen to me!" Batman was the clear aggressor in the fight and Supes only fought back because he damn near had to to get him to listen.

 

[Kobra]

I was reading this Earth One comic, Volume 1 & 2 and it made me think: Damn, this is all we really need from a Batman story. We don't need him fighting monsters or Superman, or having a lot of people around him. At least i don't need that. I love these character driven stories that keep it centered in Batman and Bruce, but end up being very interesting and grounded. You get to spend a lot of time with these characters and Batman is presented with challenges that seem more natural for him to take on. Love it.

 

[Jumpman]

I don't think many people here understand that the fight was not a logical one. For Batman, it was the result of his pain and grief and trauma. And he was the instigator. Superman tried to end it ASAP. The film couldn't make this much clearer.

Exactly right.