BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - Part 306

[C. Lee]

Please do. Your endless and repeated attempts to make lame sex jokes about Lois and Superman is getting very old at this point.

There are many things that get old on here.....people having to make lame jokes about every thing posted....and people making novel length rebuttals on why they feel they aren't funny.

This is NOT a college class where you are presenting your term paper to get your PHD....it is NOT the Supreme Court where you are fighting for a person's life....it is a place for people to have FUN discussing people who dress up in outlandish clothes and do fantastic things.....

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I know that wasn't aimed at me but I haven't watched it since the cinema as I will only ever watch the Ultimate Cut now.

At the time I liked the theatrical (maybe I still would enjoy it) but I said even then there was stuff I wasn't happy with. The Ultimate Cut fixed a lot of the issues of the theatrical cut IMO. For me I'd rate them:

Theatrical Cut: 7-7.5/10
Ultimate Cut: 8.5/10

No problem.
Now I hope for batfreakforever's answer, and hopefully misslane adds her two cents.

 

[misslane38]

There are many things that get old on here.....people having to make lame jokes about every thing posted....and people making novel length rebuttals on why they feel they aren't funny.

This is NOT a college class where you are presenting your term paper to get your PHD....it is NOT the Supreme Court where you are fighting for a person's life....it is a place for people to have FUN discussing people who dress up in outlandish clothes and do fantastic things.....

The longest thing I wrote was three sentences long. The longest post I wrote in the past few days in this thread was 14 more words than what you just wrote. Thanks for the advice, though.

 

[BH/HHH]

 

[Samuron]

If there was ever a joke not to take seriously it's Niven's satirical essay on Superman's sex life. The only things it is good for is making fun of how seriously fanboys take realism in fantasy stories. .

I beg your pardon, but it seems to me that Niven's piece on the physical dynamics of Superman's sexuality isn't any more satirical than your extensive analyses on Batman's PTSD, which are themselves, IMO, prime examples of taking fantasy realism too seriously.

Sorry about all the commas; they were on sale.

 

[batfreakforever]

How do you view the theatrical release these days? Especially when compared to the version you love more?

I have only watched the theatrical once on blu ray since I got it. It just feels like an incomplete film knowing what beats and supbplots and even action were cut out.

In the ultimate cut the editing flows alot better. I like long movies but 3 hours just flew by.
It really now becomes a Batman v Superman film and not just a Batman film taking out Superman type film.

It needed more Clark and that is what the ultimate cut gave us. Little bits like calling his Mother on the phone for advice and the trip to Gotham. He could of just flown over as Superman then changed but he took the ferry like a human being as Clark and soaked in the surroundings of what our would has to offer. Its a short but nice moment that touched on his humanity.

Even things like the Batplane leaving with Martha Kent waving goodbye as she was picked up by the police.

And then there is the action bits with the few more extra punches and hits with both the Bats and Supes fight and the martha rescue fight scene.

Little bit more violence towards the end with Doomsday and him attacking the helicopters and you get to see the spike go through Superman now. The africa plot makes sense now. Its flows great. Again more action and tension.

Superman saving people after the capital bombing and seeing the body bags layed out.

And towards end we see the cities reaction and empty streets and then the scene with Bats and Luthor in jail.

There are lots more tiny bits here and there but I wont go into detail.

Overall I probably wont watch the theatrical again.

 

[batfreakforever]

If you watch the theatrical vs the ultimate cut you can really see why Superman fans might of felt screwed.
His death feels earned in the ultimate cut. He speaks to his mother and interacts with lois more too.

People say superman gets screwed in these films but this filmverse revolves around him.
Look:
Man of Steel was the origin of this Superman and the worlds reaction to him.

Batman v Superman is Bruce Waynes reaction to Superman appearence and destruction with Zod.
The worlds political reaction to Superman.
Wonder Womans reappearance into Mans world because of Superman fighting with Doomsday.
Then Superman's death affects Bruce in a way to decide to form the Justice League and find the other heros with Diana because Darkside is coming and now earth doesnt have its greatest protector.

Suiside Squad is another reaction to Superman's appearence and death.

The Justice League movie will deal with the aftermath and impact of Superman's death and hopefully realise that the Justice League cant do it without Superman. Be it earth greatest protectors and defeat the incoming threat in Justice League.

Woman Woman movie is set in the time before Superman's appearance so not mention of him.

Then the other films might deal with his reappearance. Who knows.

I see that this DCEU loves Superman and the films revolve around him in some way, shape or form.
All good.

 

[chintai80]

I have only watched the theatrical once on blu ray since I got it. It just feels like an incomplete film knowing what beats and supbplots and even action were cut out.

In the ultimate cut the editing flows alot better. I like long movies but 3 hours just flew by.
It really now becomes a Batman v Superman film and not just a Batman film taking out Superman type film.

It needed more Clark and that is what the ultimate cut gave us. Little bits like calling his Mother on the phone for advice and the trip to Gotham. He could of just flown over as Superman then changed but he took the ferry like a human being as Clark and soaked in the surroundings of what our would has to offer. Its a short but nice moment that touched on his humanity.

Even things like the Batplane leaving with Martha Kent waving goodbye as she was picked up by the police.

And then there is the action bits with the few more extra punches and hits with both the Bats and Supes fight and the martha rescue fight scene.

Little bit more violence towards the end with Doomsday and him attacking the helicopters and you get to see the spike go through Superman now. The africa plot makes sense now. Its flows great. Again more action and tension.

Superman saving people after the capital bombing and seeing the body bags layed out.

And towards end we see the cities reaction and empty streets and then the scene with Bats and Luthor in jail.

There are lots more tiny bits here and there but I wont go into detail.

Overall I probably wont watch the theatrical again.

I feel the same way about the extended cut.
i was super disappointed with the theatrical cut when I saw it the theaters.

But the re-added scenes with Clark, though small as they may seem, added so much more for me. These were important character moments that make his sacrifice at the end better earned.

It's almost a night and day difference for me between the TC and UC.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

People say superman gets screwed in these films but this filmverse revolves around him.
Look:
Man of Steel was the origin of this Superman and the worlds reaction to him.

Batman v Superman is Bruce Waynes reaction to Superman appearence and destruction with Zod.
The worlds political reaction to Superman.
Wonder Womans reappearance into Mans world because of Superman fighting with Doomsday.
Then Superman's death affects Bruce in a way to decide to form the Justice League and find the other heros with Diana because Darkside is coming and now earth doesnt have its greatest protector.

Suiside Squad is another reaction to Superman's appearence and death.

I see that this DCEU loves Superman and the films revolve around him in some way, shape or form.

Very nicely summed up

 

[batfreakforever]

Very nicely summed up

Thanks.

 

[batfreakforever]

I loved it too. It has flaws, yes, but it has so many positives that its one of my favorite comic book movies. My whole family loved it. While I saw it in the theater with friends, my parents saw it at home on TV. Even the theatrical cut they loved.

Anyway, I appreciate and respect that others don't feel the same way, and I enjoy finding others, like yourself, who liked it as I liked it.

Thanks. We are all here because our love for these characters in whatever way they are presented. Some like one way and some really love the other way while others hate a certain way. You win some you lose some. You pay your money and take your chances.
Dont lose sleep over others not liking your choice. Relax and put down whichever device your on and go and enjoy the film again and get more out of another viewing.
Take it easy on the forums.

 

[batfreakforever]

I feel the same way about the extended cut.
i was super disappointed with the theatrical cut when I saw it the theaters.

But the re-added scenes with Clark, though small as they may seem, added so much more for me. These were important character moments that make his sacrifice at the end better earned.

It's almost a night and day difference for me between the TC and UC.

If you view the ultimate cut as the original film and the theatrical cut as the alternate cut because thats really what it is then it also becomes a much better experience......to me anyway. You can see they had a goal/plan.
Good to see that you are not so disapointed with BvS now.
Enjoy!

 

[BH/HHH]

Yeah the Ultimate Cut really does deliver and it's weird how it's 3 hours long yet it feels so much quicker than the theatrical cut.

I think Superman got a little short changed in the theatrical whereas in the UC we see his full arc. It definitely helps that we see more of the Clark Kent stuff and even those extra moments after the capitol bombing. The death was definitely more earned in the UC which just gets better and better every time I watch it.

 

[shauner111]

Superman was fleshed out a little more and the scenes were placed in the right order in the UC. But that's about the only changes the UC has to offer IMO. I also think it's way too long and I felt the length compared to the theatrical. Which is normal since it's 30 minutes longer and the cuts aren't as abrupt as the theatrical cut.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Yeah the Ultimate Cut really does deliver and it's weird how it's 3 hours long yet it feels so much quicker than the theatrical cut.

I think Superman got a little short changed in the theatrical whereas in the UC we see his full arc. It definitely helps that we see more of the Clark Kent stuff and even those extra moments after the capitol bombing. The death was definitely more earned in the UC which just gets better and better every time I watch it.

Still haven't seen the UC and I don't think Supes was shortchanged in the TC.

 

[BH/HHH]

Still haven't seen the UC and I don't think Supes was shortchanged in the TC.

I think when you see the extra stuff in the UC you might change your mind. Some of his stuff that was cut should have been left in, especially the scenes of him saving people after the Capitol bombing.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Still haven't seen the UC and I don't think Supes was shortchanged in the TC.

Wait for the UC and you'll realize what we are talking about. Clark and Superman was represented much better in the UC. Superman's motivation are much clearer this time around. We also got quiet moments with Clark and his family that works beautifully in context of the situation at that time. BvS UC is a Superman movie first (we see Batman in Superman's world and not the other way around) and a better sequel to MOS in every possible way while the more I think about it, TC seems more like a Batfleck exhibition (not that I'm complaining tho).

 

[misslane38]

It's amazing how a 3 hour movie can still show so little about each character.

It's a film that has, as part of its premise, several characters working independently from each other in service of different goals, and the structure of the film is to draw each of them inevitably closer. It is much easier to service two protagonists and several supporting characters when those characters are sharing scenes together as dyads, triads, or larger combinations. When you add what I consider to be secondary characters like the media, government, and the public, then the narrative space is even more limited.

 

[TheFuture]

The ultimate cut only made me want to see a MOS sequel even more. Cavill did what he could with what he had but I'm convinced he can carry a film if his Superman is allowed to shine.

 

[The Joker]

I'd rather have less characters and more time with each character than a ton of characters that don't get properly developed.

Exactly. The UC did nothing to significantly improve the TC. It's just a longer version of a poor movie that slaps a band aid on a few minor issues.

 

[misslane38]

I'd rather have less characters and more time with each character than a ton of characters that don't get properly developed.

Then you are seriously limiting storytelling possibilities. BvS is a film about how people cope with feelings of powerlessness. Some become consumed with revenge driven by mental illness. Some seek to find hope in action and in putting faith in people and institutions to eventually do the right thing. Some seek conversation. Some seek truth. Some seek justice. Some seek control, and when that fails, then all out annihilation is on the table. The diversity and the range of the characters adds depth and complexity to the story that you simply would not get if you stripped down the cast and had many of them constantly in each other's orbit.

Even with the sprawling nature of the narrative, each character does get enough development to escape flat or static characterization. Each character in his or her own way, grows and changes in meaningful ways. BvS takes several characters through an existential crisis arc. Each are trying to find meaning and purpose in powerlessness, and by the end of the film, each character has either moved past this state to a new state of enlightenment or disillusionment. Proper character development has nothing to do with a character's tally of lines or screentime. A character can be on screen for ages and still remain unchanged or enigmatic.

 

[misslane38]

A lot of stuff happening, but what really matters, what we all really wanted to see, is barely in the movie.

I'm sorry, but "what we all really wanted to see" is not only subjective, but it is also irrelevant to character development or storytelling. A character isn't underdeveloped simply because the film didn't show you what you wanted to see. Characters are only underdeveloped if the film doesn't show you enough of what you need to see in order to understand the characters, their motivations, and how conflict and the resolution of conflict reveals whether a character has changed or remained static.

 

[The Joker]

3 hours is MORE THAN ENOUGH time to have a lot of great scenes with Bruce, Clark, Superman and Batman. For some reason i just feel i watched a whole lot of nothing. A lot of stuff happening, but what really matters, what we all really wanted to see, is barely in the movie.

I don't think JL is going to be any different, to be honest. It's a shame because there are very good actors and artists in general involved in this universe.

Nor do I with Zack Snyder directing.

 

[misslane38]

I'm ok with limiting THOSE storytelling possibilities. I prefer storytelling possibilities that focus on good characterization and good development of the main plot lines.

But you really haven't spelled out how BvS missed the mark in that regard other than you didn't get to see what you wanted to see.

Give me a movie with one villain and only Batman. Explore both personas. Focus on one interesting storyline. I guarantee you that you will have a much more interesting story than one with 4 or 5 superheroes and a couple of villains. You will care more about the characters involved and you will be more hooked on the story.

I don't think you can guarantee that. The story you are suggesting could be just as limited and poorly executed as you allege BvS is as a film.

To me the only fact here that matters is that Superman had enough time to say his mother was in danger. This is a fact. For some reason the writters decided that Superman, in that situation, wouldn't have made all the possible efforts to send the message as soon and as quick as possible, and i disagree with it. End of story.

To prove your point:

[YT]SsGpdzHTXtg[/YT]

To me the only fact here that matters is that Superman had enough time to say his mother was in danger. This is a fact. For some reason the writters decided that Superman, in that situation, wouldn't have made all the possible efforts to send the message as soon and as quick as possible, and i disagree with it. End of story.

The only fact that you think matters doesn't matter at all. The amount of time Superman had to say his mother is in danger is irrelevant because not only is it not clear that such information would have made a difference if delivered at any of the available moments, but it is also a conclusion you can draw only because you know what happens next. Superman doesn't know what happens next. He doesn't know that Batman will listen if he tells him his mother is in danger. He can't even get him to listen to apology or listen to him explain that Lex has set this whole thing up. If Batman hates Superman so much that he won't even listen to a word he says, then why would Superman believe that making a personal appeal for his mother's safety would make the difference? Your disagreement comes from your omniscience and foreknowledge of events. You are judging Superman for not knowing things he couldn't possibly know.

To prove your point:

[YT]SsGpdzHTXtg[/YT]

See my response above.

 

[misslane38]

I don't know how anyone can argue that he didn't have more than enough opportunities to say what he needed to say. It's a fact that he had, so this has no possible defense. All you can say is that he didn't care about his mother, or is too dumb to solve the issue. But the reality is that it is just bad writing. I don't see any other way to look at it.

No one is arguing that Superman didn't have time or opportunities to say more. I am arguing that Superman didn't know that continuing to try to explain would have made a difference. The idea that Superman didn't care about his mother is ludicrous. Superman didn't keep trying to talk to Batman because Batman had made it clear that talking wouldn't work! Superman was trying to resolve the issue the only way Batman seemed willing to resolve it, and in the quickest way possible. Too dumb? Insanity is to continue to do the same thing expecting a different result. Superman tried to talk to Batman, and Batman said he understood before and after demonstrating that he understood nothing but fists. Dumb is assuming that the guy who just disparaged your parents, and actually used them as another reason why you have to die, would be swayed by learning that your mother is danger.