BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - Part 307

[chintai80]

I watched it again just last week, I found out a friend of mine had never seen the Ultimate Edition, this needed to be corrected.

did your friend like it?

i notice my friends who are big into comic books or superhero movies mostly did not like bvs.
but the ones who are more GA types thought it wasn't bad at all.

 

[Da-Scribe]

did your friend like it?

i notice my friends who are big into comic books or superhero movies mostly did not like bvs.
but the ones who are more GA types thought it wasn't bad at all.

Same. I actually got into a debate with my ma about it, and she couldn't stand BvS. When I pressed her for an explanation, it was largely pretty visceral until I started talking her through the plot. We both realized that her main source of hatred was "evil" Batman. She just couldn't process a movie where Bats was so blinded by rage. I had her watch the UE with the view of Batman as a sympathetic villain and her view softened so much. That was really interesting to see.

 

[Aurakles]

did your friend like it?

i notice my friends who are big into comic books or superhero movies mostly did not like bvs.
but the ones who are more GA types thought it wasn't bad at all.

She did, though she liked the theatrical cut as well, not a comic reader though.

Most GA people I know think it's ok, comic readers do seem to be harsher on it.

 

[2kt09]

 

[Aurakles]

I've just been reminded that today is Zack Snyders birthday, so I'm going to put on my "All the Gods" t-shirt and watch my favourite film.

 

[Tg11]

This movie they could have made it so much better if marketing wasn't all over the place but also if there were not so many reshoots

 

[Erzengel]

The marketing didn’t keep this movie from doing well.

 

[the last son]

I was one of the people who hated this movie when it came out. I wanted batman to not kill and Superman to not die in his second appearance. Once I accepted all these this movie Has grown on me so much. I really enjoy it now. At least it took a chance to be different.

 

[Erzengel]

Batman v. Superman had the 4th highest weekend gross for the genre (at the time of its release) behind the first 2 Avengers and Iron Man 3.

As of today it has the 13th highest opening weekend domestic gross.

The other 12 movies ahead of it as well as #14 & 15 all went ahead to make $1B worldwide while BvS had a 69.1% decline in it's second week. That's not because of marketing.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

This movie they could have made it so much better if marketing wasn't all over the place but also if there were not so many reshoots

Uh... You have this mixed up with JL. Seriously... YOU DON'T HAVE TO POST NONSENSE JUST TO POST.

 

[-Arya-]

I initially enjoyed this movie but unfortunately as the years have gone by, I’ve hated it more and more. It was an all around mess and an example of how not to kick start a cinematic universe.

 

[Consona]

Happy 3rd anniversary, BvS!

 

[shinlyle]

Zack Snyder's Profane Tirade on Why His Batman Kills - IGN

I read this and figured it was worth a share. Reminds me why this movie just doesn't jibe with me. A Batman who murders, a Superman who is just...sad and hopeless, a Lex Luthor who is better off forgotten, and a Wonder Woman who...okay, she was awesome.

I like most of Snyder's stuff. Watchmen was, IMHO, great. Dawn of the Dead, 300, all fun films. Nothing genius or anything, but good films. After I first watched Man of Steel, I knew the road was going to be bumpy. I took my daughter to see it. I think she was about 5 at the time. I figured, it's a Superman movie. Watching her terrified at the destruction of Metropolis as Superman snapped Zod's neck, I realized this was doomed. Superman and Batman HAVE TO BE BETTER!

 

[Consona]

I took my daughter to see it. I think she was about 5 at the time. I figured, it's a Superman movie. Watching her terrified at the destruction of Metropolis as Superman snapped Zod's neck, I realized this was doomed. Superman and Batman HAVE TO BE BETTER!

Yea, that's the point.

 

[Aurakles]

Zack Snyder's Profane Tirade on Why His Batman Kills - IGN

I read this and figured it was worth a share. Reminds me why this movie just doesn't jibe with me. A Batman who murders, a Superman who is just...sad and hopeless, a Lex Luthor who is better off forgotten, and a Wonder Woman who...okay, she was awesome.

I like most of Snyder's stuff. Watchmen was, IMHO, great. Dawn of the Dead, 300, all fun films. Nothing genius or anything, but good films. After I first watched Man of Steel, I knew the road was going to be bumpy. I took my daughter to see it. I think she was about 5 at the time. I figured, it's a Superman movie. Watching her terrified at the destruction of Metropolis as Superman snapped Zod's neck, I realized this was doomed. Superman and Batman HAVE TO BE BETTER!

Zack Snyders films (apart from the Owl one) aren't for children, whereas all previous Superman films were. I can understand that you might have felt angry and perhaps betrayed by MOS.
It was made for a mature audience, perhaps the marketing should have made that clearer.

My understanding of what Snyder is talking about is how Batman in BVS represented the US after 9/11. Because of the trauma, the fear and anger it generated the US did some terrible things. It became more suspicious, more ruthless, more cynical, just like Bruce. The damage was done by some kryptonians, Bruce blames all kryptonians. He persecutes innocents, acts without care for the collateral damage he may be causing.
Bruce even channels Dick Cheney when talking to Alfred.
Something that is capable of doing great things and can be a bastion of goodness lowers itself to cruelty.
But is not beyond redemption.
Batman finding his path again, says the the US can find it's path again, that it can do better.

 

[shinlyle]

Zack Snyders films (apart from the Owl one) aren't for children, whereas all previous Superman films were. I can understand that you might have felt angry and perhaps betrayed by MOS.
It was made for a mature audience, perhaps the marketing should have made that clearer.

My understanding of what Snyder is talking about is how Batman in BVS represented the US after 9/11. Because of the trauma, the fear and anger it generated the US did some terrible things. It became more suspicious, more ruthless, more cynical, just like Bruce. The damage was done by some kryptonians, Bruce blames all kryptonians. He persecutes innocents, acts without care for the collateral damage he may be causing.
Bruce even channels Dick Cheney when talking to Alfred.
Something that is capable of doing great things and can be a bastion of goodness lowers itself to cruelty.
But is not beyond redemption.
Batman finding his path again, says the the US can find it's path again, that it can do better.

My own personal opinion, any Superman ( or Spider-Man) film that you can't take a child to is a failure. Batman, I get that. BvS not being kid friendly doesn't bug me much, but Superman? Not so much. I expect Superman to be inspiring, and good to his core. That's what makes him Superman. I'm not a huge fan of the character nowadays because they always try to paint him with this conflicted nature or potential for moral ambiguity...and that's not Superman I'm not just talking about the movies, but in comics, that has been the case for years. Man of Steel's defining moment was him saving the busload of children. THAT was Superman. The scene where he let his dad die? FAIL. Him being unable to save his dad in the original from a heart attack is one thing. Him watching Pa Kent die because his dad waved him off, nope. Also, him destroying the tractor trailer because a guy was a jerk, nope. There was just so much wrong. You can allow him to have an awesome action sequence and even fight dark villains, but when he begins snapping necks and what-not, you lose.

For those who like to point out that he killed in Superman 2, the Richard Donner cut had him turn back time and re-imprison all three in the Phantom Zone, undoing their deaths and the destruction that followed. A cop-out, but it was a way to prevent death, which is kind of Superman's thing.

Just my two cents. Also, keep in mind I didn't HATE BvS, but the fact that it and JL effectively killed the Batman and Superman franchises for the time being says all we need to know about how the general public regarded them. For what it's worth, I really LIKED Justice League, and had it came out in a pre-Avengers world, it would have been something amazing! It's still not bad. It's just...not amazing.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[chintai80]

lol clark does go back to the diner and beats up that trucker at the end of superman 2.
i think that's worse than destroying a jerk's tractor trailer.
but then superman 2 did it with a light-hearted, comedic tone. so it gets a pass.

 

[jondoe]

For all the talk I've heard for 3 years about BVS being "convoluted" it actually is extremely easy to follow, especially in the Ultimate Cut version of the film. Complex should never be confused with convoluted. The story for BVS is complex. But these are the basics:

There are three main characters established in the opening 2 acts of BVS. Three. Bruce Wayne/Batman. Clark Kent/Superman. And Lex Luthor. Each has different goals and motivations, and different plans all running parallel with each others. Eventually these three storylines/characters converge with each other to form the crux of the main plot.

Lex Luthor: Wants to weoponize Kryptonite as a deterrent against Superman, or others like him. Motivations are tied to childhood trauma suffered at the hands of his father. Establishes contingencies in the event he fails. Full plan is revealed in the third act, where all loose ends come full circle.

Bruce Wayne/Batman: Is investigating a red herring code named "White Portuguese" under the guise of stopping a dirty bomb from entering Gotham. Is revealed later to be orchestrating a scheme to steal Kryptonite from Lex Luthor in order to exact a revenge plot against Superman, for the attack in Black Zero. Motivations are tied to loss of innocents, personal friends & family, and a jaded point of view centered around 20 years in Gotham.

Clark Kent/Superman: Is following up on an earlier attack on Lois in the desert. Stumbles upon a bigger story involving The Batman. Decides to investigate his tactics and stop his actions from causing more harm to the community. Is the target of both plans orchestrated by Lex and Bruce.

All while this is happening, there are two (2!) subplots involving Lois Lane and Diana Prince/Wonder Woman. Both tie back into the main story in organically woven ways, as Lois is the basis for the investigation into Luthors dealings (& the lynchpin that launches the entire plot) & Diana's appearance and investigation into a personal photograph ties back into Luthors plans to neutralize/eliminate metahuman threats, & she plays a vital role in the final climax of the film. So remind me again.....what's convoluted about any of this? Seems straightforward to me.

 

[Aurakles]

My own personal opinion, any Superman ( or Spider-Man) film that you can't take a child to is a failure. Batman, I get that. BvS not being kid friendly doesn't bug me much, but Superman? Not so much. I expect Superman to be inspiring, and good to his core. That's what makes him Superman. I'm not a huge fan of the character nowadays because they always try to paint him with this conflicted nature or potential for moral ambiguity...and that's not Superman I'm not just talking about the movies, but in comics, that has been the case for years. Man of Steel's defining moment was him saving the busload of children. THAT was Superman. The scene where he let his dad die? FAIL. Him being unable to save his dad in the original from a heart attack is one thing. Him watching Pa Kent die because his dad waved him off, nope. Also, him destroying the tractor trailer because a guy was a jerk, nope. There was just so much wrong. You can allow him to have an awesome action sequence and even fight dark villains, but when he begins snapping necks and what-not, you lose.

For those who like to point out that he killed in Superman 2, the Richard Donner cut had him turn back time and re-imprison all three in the Phantom Zone, undoing their deaths and the destruction that followed. A cop-out, but it was a way to prevent death, which is kind of Superman's thing.

Just my two cents. Also, keep in mind I didn't HATE BvS, but the fact that it and JL effectively killed the Batman and Superman franchises for the time being says all we need to know about how the general public regarded them. For what it's worth, I really LIKED Justice League, and had it came out in a pre-Avengers world, it would have been something amazing! It's still not bad. It's just...not amazing.

Sorry for the rant.

Rant away, that's what this place is for.

I can appreciate the idea that all Superman films should be accessible to children. It isn't my opinion, but I respect it.

Perhaps in the Donner cut he Superman didn't kill anyone, but in the theatrical cut he did. He happily allowed the deaths of three people who were no longer a threat.

I agree Superman should be good to the core, he should want to help others. However, knowing what is the right course of action isn't always easy. Many people who want nothing more than to help others, struggle to determine how they should do that, sometimes acts with good intentions have disasterous outcomes.
The deaths of Pa Kent and Zod were examples of the trolley problem, is it better to let one die to save many?
People constantly disagree on what "good" is. There are complex ethical questions we all have to face in life. I have no problem with Superman stories trying to tackle these questions in a mature way.

 

[shinlyle]

Rant away, that's what this place is for.

I can appreciate the idea that all Superman films should be accessible to children. It isn't my opinion, but I respect it.

Perhaps in the Donner cut he Superman didn't kill anyone, but in the theatrical cut he did. He happily allowed the deaths of three people who were no longer a threat.

I agree Superman should be good to the core, he should want to help others. However, knowing what is the right course of action isn't always easy. Many people who want nothing more than to help others, struggle to determine how they should do that, sometimes acts with good intentions have disasterous outcomes.
The deaths of Pa Kent and Zod were examples of the trolley problem, is it better to let one die to save many?
People constantly disagree on what "good" is. There are complex ethical questions we all have to face in life. I have no problem with Superman stories trying to tackle these questions in a mature way.

Well...I appreciate the civility...and your perspective on this. Well said.

 

[8ulk87]

I kinda dont get all the people who think they are entitled to things.

Who said a Superman movie MUST be suitable for kids ?

All this BS talk is mostly due to business and studios that force certain ratings for monetary reasons.
Snyder couldnt have an R rating thus people thought this movie is suitable for kids because its PG-13 when in fact the rating doesnt reflect the reality of it.

I understand this is an issue but then again you re hating the movie because it wasnt clear it was not suitable for kids and not because its actually not good.

Thats not fair at all.

And for those who actually insist the movie wasnt good i have this analysis for you which i found to be on point.



The movie BvS extended edition and MoS are awesome and if you dont like them you have bad taste or you have no clue what the movies are about or what Superman is about. I dont mean to bash anyone just stating my opinion.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Been meaning to watch the UC again lately but it’s getting the time to do it

 

[Cain]

I was one of the people who hated this movie when it came out. I wanted batman to not kill and Superman to not die in his second appearance. Once I accepted all these this movie Has grown on me so much. I really enjoy it now. At least it took a chance to be different.

I didn't hate it but did find myself non-plussed by the death of Superman walking out the cinema. It wasn't till the Ultimate Edition that I truly realized how much his death informed not only Bruce's redemption but the extent of Lex's cruelty as well. That realization made it one of my favorite Batman and Superman movies so far.

 

[Cain]

Ray Fisher (Cyborg) on BvS from reddit

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Ray Fisher (Cyborg) on BvS from reddit

Fisher has absolutely nailed my thoughts on the movie here. Everyone I have watched BvS I have noticed something new also, and I never got the complaints about making Superman's story 'bleak' and him doubting himself. Seeing stuff on the news about how you aren't making a difference despite no matter what you try would make anyone question if what they were doing was right.

But Superman comes through it, and I said in another thread Superman killing Doomsday and was him destroying the last, twisted and corrupted, living remnant of his home world (both worlds are mentioned throughout) and accepting his place finally and undoubtedly as Earth's protector.