All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 2

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No.

First, they're in the bathroom some time later when they discuss this, so they are now placing the event in the larger context of the world's reaction to Superman, not discussing that specific part of the event.

Second, that is simply not the way the English language works.

"Those men" means the group in question: IE, the men who died, or that group of men as a whole.

There is nothing inherent in his statement that excludes the warlord contextually, especially since the warlord/gunman was part of that group, which he refers to as "those men".

Why would Superman deny killing, and then forget to mention the single one of "those men" that he killed?
I'm sorry but "I didn't kill those men" is not the same as "I didn't kill anyone".

If, for example, Superman was pressed about the casualties from his fight with Zod and he said "I didn't kill those people" would that mean that he was denying that he did, in fact kill Zod later?

See, the warlord is separated from the other men by something rather obvious. There is obviously the matter of his location and the matter of the way he was dispatched. He was inside with Lois, so he was never shot and incinerated. He was "taken" by brute force, his fate/location is unknown. But Lois "knows" what happened to him.

So the warlord is not part of the group of men that Lois is inquiring about.

She is not asking what happened to the dead men. She knows. Everyone does. It is major news at that point. That is part of why the hearings are held; the mess that the conflict became.

Lois knows full well that he didn't do whatever happened, and now, because she is concerned about the mess that her investigation into the terrorists became, she wants to know what DID happen, which informs her character arc and investigation throughout the rest of the film.

She is referring to being concerned about Superman's involvement in the conflict, period. The "cost" she mentions is the unforseen consequences that his involvement can lead to (further explored with Jonathan Kent's analogy of the horses), and her concerns over the perception that the rest of the world has about Superman being unilaterally involved in these types of incidents.

Actually, I don't think she knows for sure. After dispatching the warlord, Superman just disappears, leaving Lois there to go through the bodies. This is even more abrupt in the TC where there is an inmediate cut to black after Superman does away with the guy. She knows Superman is a good man, but she can also see burned bodies lying around. A little suspect.

When Clark returns home it's like the first time they see each other since the event and all she knows for sure is what she saw on the news. Superman showed up, something happened, and then he left. She is a journalist. She may know Clark is good, but the whole thing seems iffy.

I mean there is a reason why Clark feels the need to say that he didn't kill those men, which again, doesn't really mean he didn't kill the warlord.

Meh.

There are plenty of ambiguous moments in other films where people don't assume the worst about a character.

You get these discussions on this point mostly because some posters have a hatred of a portrayal of Superman that has killed in the previous film, are hypersensitive about the issue and looking for any reason to condemn this version of the character further.

That, or they're literally just jumping to conclusions despite not having the info to draw those conclusions from a logical standpoint.

The people who believe this character is basically a decent human being who probably doesn't go around snapping necks and such don't seem to be insisting on the "he clearly killed that guy" interpretation of the sequence.

It has historically been those who have been the most vocal about Superman killing and it being poorly handled who jumped all over this sequence.

And hey, if you want to believe that he killed that guy, go right ahead. But your "feeling" is not tangible proof of something.

Or maybe this gets brought up because people think that the way the warlord is rather ambiguous and people have seen this Superman kill to save lives before.

Not sure why bring up my "feeling" or something. I am not saying Superman killed the guy. I'm saying that I can see why people think that he did.
 
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So the warlord is not part of the group of men that Lois is inquiring about.

Okay, this is the exact context, in the film, of Clark's statement and answer to Lois's question. Right before Clark says, "I didn't kill those men if that's what they think," we see the committee hearing featuring Kahina's testimony:

The women in the village heard a noise. Like the sky crack open. He came down, so many dead. Even worse came after. The government attacked. No mercy in the villages.

Kahina's testimony -- the testimony Clark is referring to in his conversation with Lois and the testimony she is referring to with her question -- includes not just the men in the village but everything that happened when the "sky crack[ed] open." And, seriously, do you think Clark wouldn't acknowledge the complexity of the situation? He wouldn't' say, "I did kill the guy who threatened you, but not those other people" to address any concerns? I don't think there's any doubt that Clark is saying he didn't kill anyone, including the warlord, and I think if he had killed someone that even the hearing wasn't about, he would acknowledge it to Lois. It seems very safe to conclude that he did not kill that warlord.
 
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This is the height of nitpicking.

The height of nitpicking would be something along the lines of when an actor is cast in an adaptation and people complain that they have the wrong eye color. This is a fundamental aspect of the story that's completely dropped even though realistically he should be mentioned at least once.

He's a plot device, why on Earth does it matter what process he went through afte the event?

It matters precisely because he's important to the plot, again he's the only other human survivor of the incident besides Lois. His testimony on the matter sounds pretty ****ing important to me.

Luthor's men seemed pretty thorough in wiping out those soldiers. Odds are that gunman either ended up dead at their hands, or unconscious and out of the way somewhere. Why does it matter?

Except there's nothing in the film to suggest that junior's goons did so. Junior was able to get his hands in a lot of different systems but not all of them so there's no guarantee that he could have even gotten to him even if he wanted to. He only got to the prisoners in Gotham because that city was so corrupt anyway.

As for testifying, he's a terrorist, and he wouldn't be the best witness as a result. Why would they bring him to the Senate meeting over using a seemingly innocent person like Kahina? Senator Finch was trying to put a human, innocent face on the conflict. Using a terrorist wouldn't be the best way to accomplish that.

There's literally nothing in the film to support the idea that Finch wanted an innocent face on this incident. Kahina's there because they think she's a witness and there's never any explicit statement about putting her there to gain sympathy. In fact Finch seemed like she was mostly interested in finding the objective truth about the situation and exploring some kind of realistic answer so Kal doesn't act like a reckless buffoon anymore.

Also for the warlord not necessarily being trustworthy? His character isn't well defined in the movie (like pretty much every other character) so while it's just as likely he could be a stereotypical terrorist type he could also be the more honorable freedom fighter type. And if you can't take someone's testimony as truth because they are a criminal and/or terrorist then I guess we'll just say that the whole Lau plotline in Dark Knight is null and void too, apparently.

The biggest thing that bugs me is the guy is never even mentioned again even though he is actually important, his testimony would be extremely valuable. My problems with the warlord on this specific path of reasoning could have actually been easily solved if they just included an extra line in the film where somebody says something along the lines of "We were going to have [x-name] testify but he died mysteriously in transport". Something as subtle as that would have been enough to suggest some link to junior's schemes or whatever but they drop this guy's story completely.

So it's either that the three screenwriters for this film didn't notice this problem at all (which is pretty likely considering the general incompetence on display) or that the warlord's heart actually stopped beating...
 
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So, we have Matt Reeves (probably) rewriting The Batman from scratch, and Matthew Vaughn potentially circling Superman to do the same thing...

Are we starting to see the stirrings of a soft reboot for both characters, and a move away from the Snyder narrative?
 
So, we have Matt Reeves (probably) rewriting The Batman from scratch, and Matthew Vaughn potentially circling Superman to do the same thing...

Are we starting to see the stirrings of a soft reboot for both characters, and a move away from the Snyder narrative?

Maybe soft reboots is a correct term, I think of it as more a next chapter. Like when a new creative team comes into the comics. What came before is still canon but the stories are fresh. I think that's how it should be anyway in all honesty.
 
So, we have Matt Reeves (probably) rewriting The Batman from scratch, and Matthew Vaughn potentially circling Superman to do the same thing...

Are we starting to see the stirrings of a soft reboot for both characters, and a move away from the Snyder narrative?

No, to put it simply IMO.
 
Maybe soft reboots is a correct term, I think of it as more a next chapter. Like when a new creative team comes into the comics. What came before is still canon but the stories are fresh. I think that's how it should be anyway in all honesty.

...yeah, I think that approach would be great. No denial of what's come previously, but an entirely new 'run' with completely new creative teams.
 
So, we have Matt Reeves (probably) rewriting The Batman from scratch, and Matthew Vaughn potentially circling Superman to do the same thing...

Are we starting to see the stirrings of a soft reboot for both characters, and a move away from the Snyder narrative?

I think that's very likely, in some ways it seems like Johns is doing a pseudo "Rebirth" for the movies which I think is definitely the best course of action.

Personally I think a straight up DOFP style reboot would be preferable or at the very least something akin to DOFP but where the changes are ambiguous so the two different camps (the pro snyder movies and the anti snyder movies) can act like the movies did/did not happen at the same time and it wouldn't really matter either way.
 
Personally I think a straight up DOFP style reboot would be preferable or at the very least something akin to DOFP but where the changes are ambiguous so the two different camps (the pro snyder movies and the anti snyder movies) can act like the movies did/did not happen at the same time and it wouldn't really matter either way.
Around the time of JL2 and/or The Flash is a perfect time to do a CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS or FLASHPOINT style soft-boot while technically keeping the past narrative in-tact.
 
Around the time of JL2 and/or The Flash is a perfect time to do a CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS or FLASHPOINT style soft-boot while technically keeping the past narrative in-tact.

That sounds like a great idea. In fact, WB could use the COIE-esque movie to have cameos from the CW DC characters like Arrow or the Flash.
 
Around the time of JL2 and/or The Flash is a perfect time to do a CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS or FLASHPOINT style soft-boot while technically keeping the past narrative in-tact.

You think it'll make it that far? Reeves will be on The Batman, and Vaughn might be on Superman long before a JL2 or Flash movie, probably.
 
Around the time of JL2 and/or The Flash is a perfect time to do a CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS or FLASHPOINT style soft-boot while technically keeping the past narrative in-tact.

Actually I think something more along the lines of JLA Rock of Ages would be a better fit. Not a 1:1 adaptation mind you but something similar since they're already building up the new gods and they establish in that story that when the universe is in crisis, especially one that involves darkseid, it finds a way to warp reality/time in order to right itself from darkseid's corruption by using heroes as proxies. You could also use this as a way to retcon any aspect of the DCMU as is that people don't like and properly start fresh.
 
You think it'll make it that far? Reeves will be on The Batman, and Vaughn might be on Superman long before a JL2 or Flash movie, probably.
Well ideally if there were to take on such a grand task they'd have all their directors on the same page before moving forward. In which case even if the solo titles come before, they're all "leading" towards that inevitable timeline collapse handled by JL2/Flash.

Roven did recently mention future films would feature both flashbacks and flashforwards, so perhaps this is what they were alluding to. I have to believe someone at DC is putting it onto the table, especially Johns. The multiverse is such an integral component of the DC brand it had to have come up in the creative meetings. It's a convenient get-out-jail-free card too, as it's a built-in Deus Ex Machina.
 
Maybe soft reboots is a correct term, I think of it as more a next chapter. Like when a new creative team comes into the comics. What came before is still canon but the stories are fresh. I think that's how it should be anyway in all honesty.

I agree. It would be more like another chapter, and one that builds from the foundation of the past in an organic way. In other words, the changes some might describe as being anti-Snyder would really be what Snyder was building to from the start following his monomythic model. Furthermore, as Superman grows and changes, so does the world around him, creating a reciprocal and mutually beneficial relationship that would allow for a more mature Superman who's been tested, gained friends, and earned public support to express another side of himself and for the world to do so as well. It's an evolution rather than abrupt changes from status quo to status quo.

I also hope that the universe never does a Flashpoint or any other timeline or universe altering event. Those types of things are confusing for people, work best in comics or self-contained narratives, and are pointless and risky if the changes one seeks can be more easily attained through writing that creates change more organically rather than through contrived plot devices.
 
Well ideally if there were to take on such a grand task they'd have all their directors on the same page before moving forward. In which case even if the solo titles come before, they're all "leading" towards that inevitable timeline collapse handled by JL2/Flash.

Roven did recently mention future films would feature both flashbacks and flashforwards, so perhaps this is what they were alluding to. I have to believe someone at DC is putting it onto the table, especially Johns. The multiverse is such an integral component of the DC brand it had to have come up in the creative meetings. It's a convenient get-out-jail-free card too, as it's a built-in Deus Ex Machina.

I think the only way the multiverse would be used wouldn't be to reboot anything in any way, but just to have fun with AU stories like Kingdom Come, Red Son, etc. They have no jail they are in need of getting out of using such extreme measures. I think there's no worse thing to do than to get people finally up to speed with these characters and this world only to force changes upon them that are either unnecessary or could easily be affected via organic writing techniques.
 
In an age of reboots, remakes, DOFP, and talking raccoons, I don't think anyone would find anything confusing or ridiculous about a Flashpoint/COIE-style reboot.
 
In an age of reboots, remakes, DOFP, and talking raccoons, I don't think anyone would find anything confusing or ridiculous about a Flashpoint/COIE-style reboot.

DoFP happened a good long while from the original X-Men franchise. The first X-Men movie was in 2000. DoFP was in 2014. I think after that amount of time the original audience has moved on, forgotten the finer details, and are more ready to move on to something new. With the DCEU, it's far too soon to mess around with that kind of thing.
 
Honestly, if they just did MOS2 and the Batman and didn't really reference the previous films, even with the same actors, I honestly wouldn't be upset.
 
Honestly, if they just did MOS2 and the Batman and didn't really reference the previous films, even with the same actors, I honestly wouldn't be upset.

That is what I think they will do. The old movies may still be canon but the new ones won't really acknowledge them. In many ways, it could be a reboot. I think post-Snyder movies will probably ignore the past movies. We just need to get through Justice League. I already know that movie will probably suck and be critically panned.

Starting 2018, they start fresh with the properties
 
Honestly, if they just did MOS2 and the Batman and didn't really reference the previous films, even with the same actors, I honestly wouldn't be upset.

I might be able to settle for something like that as long as Snyder and people like him are kept far, far away from this universe.
 
Honestly, if they just did MOS2 and the Batman and didn't really reference the previous films, even with the same actors, I honestly wouldn't be upset.
Indeed; they should just concentrate on making the best films they can, and not worry so much about creating a "universe".
 
DoFP happened a good long while from the original X-Men franchise. The first X-Men movie was in 2000. DoFP was in 2014. I think after that amount of time the original audience has moved on, forgotten the finer details, and are more ready to move on to something new. With the DCEU, it's far too soon to mess around with that kind of thing.

It's really not.

Honestly, if they just did MOS2 and the Batman and didn't really reference the previous films, even with the same actors, I honestly wouldn't be upset.

Same.
 
This is a fundamental aspect of the story that's completely dropped even though realistically he should be mentioned at least once.

No, it is not. The fundamental aspect of the story is the overall event, the mess it causes, and its impact on people's perceptions of Superman. That's what affects the story going forward. Superman traveling there to rescue Lois and confronting that gunman is merely the plot device that gets this larger fundamental storyline point into the movie.

It matters precisely because he's important to the plot, again he's the only other human survivor of the incident besides Lois. His testimony on the matter sounds pretty ****ing important to me.

He's really not important to the plot.

I think you're missing my point regarding his testimony...maybe I wasn't clear enough. When you put someone on the stand, at least in the American legal system, you want to make sure they are considered a credible witness so that their testimony on the record is not called into question later on. You do background checks, etc, to see if they have a history of criminal behavior, violent behavior, issues with responsibility, etc. If they have these types of issues, they are often not deemed a credible witness and most attorneys, Senators, etc, will not feel comfortable putting them on the stand. Someone with a criminal background, someone with a terrorist background...does not exactly fit into the category of a likely credible witness. It's not about whether they're actually going to tell the truth, it's about the perception surrounding that testimony.

Senator Finch is using the hearings as political leverage. She is attempting to draw attention to the issue by putting a very human, innocent face on people whose lives Superman has seemingly disrupted.

Putting a terrorist on the stand whose testimony based on his own direct involvement in an international incident would almost automatically be called into question would not accomplish that very well.

Nevermind that unless we actually saw him testify, it would be somewhat pointless to include him again in the story. If we DID see him testify, it would essentially be redundant, because in theory, from a story info standpoint, he'd be delivering the same info that has more emotional impact coming from Kahina, a seemingly innocent person, and who ties into the story better later on.

The movie is better served having an apparently innocent citizen give an emotional testimony about how her life and the lives of her village were affected.

Except there's nothing in the film to suggest that junior's goons did so.

We see "junior's goons" taking out the other terrorists, do we not? If he is in fact dead, it is entirely possible they might have killed him.

Junior was able to get his hands in a lot of different systems but not all of them so there's no guarantee that he could have even gotten to him even if he wanted to. He only got to the prisoners in Gotham because that city was so corrupt anyway.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. They were in a foreign country, right where the gunman was when Superman left off with him. They were right where they would need to be to kill him.

There's literally nothing in the film to support the idea that Finch wanted an innocent face on this incident. Kahina's there because they think she's a witness and there's never any explicit statement about putting her there to gain sympathy.

Except that she seemingly is an innocent face.

As I've pointed out, credibility is important in many such scenarios. Kahina, as a victim of the attacks, and as a seemingly innocent party, would appear to have credibility that a terrorist would not.

The fact that she gives an emotional testimony makes it fairly apparent that the goal of putting her up there is to gain the world's sympathy. Finch makes an emotional statement following it and capitalizes on this to move things to the next level of hearings.

In fact Finch seemed like she was mostly interested in finding the objective truth about the situation and exploring some kind of realistic answer so Kal doesn't act like a reckless buffoon anymore.

She is, but she still needed to be able to put an innocent, human face out there. It is a political move. Luthor tries to take advantage of this, since he knows it is Senator Finchs pet political project, and Finch reveals that she's not ALL about politics, but actually concerned with getting to the truth about Superman.

Also for the warlord not necessarily being trustworthy? His character isn't well defined in the movie (like pretty much every other character) so while it's just as likely he could be a stereotypical terrorist type he could also be the more honorable freedom fighter type.

It doesn't work that way. Unless you yourself are directly under investigation, you will likely not be called as any kind of character witness in this kind of scenario if you have a criminal or terrorist record.

Of course, according to some of you, Superman killed that guy, so how would he then be available to testify anyway?

And if you can't take someone's testimony as truth because they are a criminal and/or terrorist then I guess we'll just say that the whole Lau plotline in Dark Knight is null and void too, apparently.

That's different. Like I just said, sometimes when you yourself are under direct investigation and prosecution, you may have the option to testify. Lau himself is directly under investigation, has admitted to the crime he is being investigated for, has probably issued a sworn statement, and has made a deal to give up his associates. He is not serving as a character witness in an international incident.

The biggest thing that bugs me is the guy is never even mentioned again even though he is actually important, his testimony would be extremely valuable. My problems with the warlord on this specific path of reasoning could have actually been easily solved if they just included an extra line in the film where somebody says something along the lines of "We were going to have [x-name] testify but he died mysteriously in transport". Something as subtle as that would have been enough to suggest some link to junior's schemes or whatever but they drop this guy's story completely.

Why would they continue the story of a random thug?

I think the fact that you think that a line incluing "he died mysteriously in transport" is subtle may be part of the problem here.

So it's either that the three screenwriters for this film didn't notice this problem at all (which is pretty likely considering the general incompetence on display) or that the warlord's heart actually stopped beating...

This is not a problem. It is completely normal to dismiss plot devices after they are used.
 
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