All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 2

[misslane38]

It's really not.

I disagree. The analogy to DoFP is in no way applicable to the DCCU at this time. The X-Men universe was nearly 15 years into its run and, as far as I can tell, hasn't built anything meaningful onto its universe from the effects of the film's alterations to the timeline aside from Apocalypse, which wasn't well-received and progressed from the alteration point. It wasn't just small changes built into films that are supposed to take place later on in a timeline (i.e. post Justice League formation). It seemed to me that it just gave the matured X-Men universe a kind of happy ending (and new actors) before Logan stole that (the happy ending) away for the most part. It wasn't similar circumstances, in other words.

More importantly, I have yet to read a single convincing argument for why a soft reboot would be superior to the DCCU just moving on and evolving organically from its existing continuity. But agree to disagree, I guess?

 

[The Guard]

I think some version of CRISIS is the most likely larger scale storyline to be adapted. A scaled down version with the basics. The concept of the multiverse or the universe in peril could make for interesting stories.

I don't know that I'd want to see them directly try to use a storyline like Flashpoint to change things, though.

What really needs to be changed and cannot, as Miss Lane said, just evolve organically?

Pretty much any of the issues with these films can be solved moving forward, because most of the issues people have are with the films' structure and approach or the character elements themselves (like Batman's violence/killing and Superman's lack of cheerfulness), and these things can be fluid.

I don't think they need to directly address previous films all that much, and not many franchises do that anyway. A few nods here and there and some connective tissue will suffice.

I do think Batman and Superman will need to bury the hatchet regarding BVS, but Batman saving Martha and bringing together the League and holding the fort in Superman's absence will go a long way toward accomplishing that, and this can be accomplished in JUSTICE LEAGUE to clear the deck for future films. Batman is obviously trying to improve his own nature as a hero, so that's already in progress.

I really don't think they need a FLASHPOINT level event universe wide to fix things.

 

[Boy Scout]

I disagree. The analogy to DoFP is in no way applicable to the DCCU at this time.

You're overthinking this.

I used DOFP as just one example of the general public being familiar with, and accepting of, reboots. The fact that it was a well-received, in-continuity reboot that helped fix a lot of the problems with that universe is icing on the cake.

 

[The Guard]

But what comparable problems does the DCEU have that require that type of sci-fi "correction"?

 

[Boy Scout]

None that you'll agree with.

Though I never said it was required.

 

[idiot09]

This soft reboot BS came out of a i09's(or something) bloggers ass didnt it? LMAO.

 

[BH/HHH]

...yeah, I think that approach would be great. No denial of what's come previously, but an entirely new 'run' with completely new creative teams.

Agreed, new directors should be able to put there own spin on the characters just like new comic book writers/artists, etc. This is exactly what I wanted for Batman with TDKT but then Rises capped the series off, I guess what I'm saying is treat it like Bond in many ways but not necessarily changing actors (unless necessary). Just let the directors make the films they have to. If they want to reference something from a past film (could even be something as simple as Superman saying he had a funeral once or something) then fine but if it's a new story with no ties to the previous films I see no problems not mentioning anything or connecting to anything because just like comics this is a new chapter.

Just thinking say Vaughn (if he's doing MOS2) doesn't want to deal with how to bring back Clark Kent (if JL doesn't already). Maybe he will just set his film six months later with no explanation and he's back. Sure that would piss some people off but I'm not sure casual movie goers would care. Hack he could even do that but have a throw away line of dialogue mentioning Bruce's deep pockets or something.

Maybe Vaugn wants Superman to already have a Fortress of Solitude so he has one when the film starts. No explanation, these kinds of things wouldn't bother me and they'd allow for Vaugn to create a Superman film without having to really invest in the prior continuity.

I think there are ways for both fans of what the DCEU has done so far and those that are not to get what they want.

 

[idiot09]

I think fanboys worry too much about continuity. Just look at Logan. Mangold just said "***** that BS I am going to tell the story I want to tell my own way" and he did just that. Worked out great.

I dont need every DCEU film to acknowledge all the movies before it and plant seeds for all the movies after it. Just tell the story you want to tell.

 

[misslane38]

You're overthinking this.

I used DOFP as just one example of the general public being familiar with, and accepting of, reboots. The fact that it was a well-received, in-continuity reboot that helped fix a lot of the problems with that universe is icing on the cake.

It being accepted was dependent on its unique features -- features that don't apply to the DCEU. What is the cost-benefit analysis here? Can changes occur through more conventional means? When would it happen? In what movie? If Flash does it, should it happen in or after his solo which is in limbo now? Does it make Vaughn's and Reeves' films pointless before they're even made, if retcons happen after? How do you imagine this working? Maybe instead of accusing me of over thinking, you should think it through. When I hear requests for a reboot via timeline or universe shuffling, this image comes to mind.

DoFP is also not an applicable example, in my opinion, because it is an example of the general public accepting a reboot at the end of a story. It is not a reboot fans of the franchise have to live with in any real way because there are not going to any films that are vastly affected by it. It wasn't a true reboot in that sense because the altered continuity did not reboot anything. When you soft reboot, you restart continuity with origins and narrative beats roughly intact while maintaining everything else. The X-Men films are not doing that at all. The "soft reboot" only gave the franchise a more idealistic coda. It fixed problems with the universe in order to bring that universe to a happily ever after ending. That kind of "soft reboot," of course, is guaranteed to be more accepted by the general public because all it is is a happily ever after with no consequences.

 

[misslane38]

Double post.

 

[BH/HHH]

I think fanboys worry too much about continuity. Just look at Logan. Mangold just said "***** that BS I am going to tell the story I want to tell my own way" and he did just that. Worked out great.

I dont need every DCEU film to acknowledge all the movies before it and plant seeds for all the movies after it. Just tell the story you want to tell.

Yeah that's what I was trying to say. You did it way faster haha

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

the problem with using that picture as analogy for a DCEU reboot is, that it's most certainly the other way round

see, the status quo is hte abomination, every change can just improve the product

 

[STARMAN]

Honestly, if they just did MOS2 and the Batman and didn't really reference the previous films, even with the same actors, I honestly wouldn't be upset.

I think that's the best way. The previous events are canon. But they can be referenced or ignored by the next director.

 

[Boy Scout]

It being accepted was dependent on its unique features -- features that don't apply to the DCEU. What is the cost-benefit analysis here? Can changes occur through more conventional means? When would it happen? In what movie? If Flash does it, should it happen in or after his solo which is in limbo now? Does it make Vaughn's and Reeves' films pointless before they're even made, if retcons happen after? How do you imagine this working? Maybe instead of accusing me of over thinking, you should think it through. When I hear requests for a reboot via timeline or universe shuffling, this image comes to mind.

DoFP is also not an applicable example, in my opinion, because it is an example of the general public accepting a reboot at the end of a story. It is not a reboot fans of the franchise have to live with in any real way because there are not going to any films that are vastly affected by it. It wasn't a true reboot in that sense because the altered continuity did not reboot anything. When you soft reboot, you restart continuity with origins and narrative beats roughly intact while maintaining everything else. The X-Men films are not doing that at all. The "soft reboot" only gave the franchise a more idealistic coda. It fixed problems with the universe in order to bring that universe to a happily ever after ending. That kind of "soft reboot," of course, is guaranteed to be more accepted by the general public because all it is is a happily ever after with no consequences.

Yeah, again, you're overthinking this. Let's do as you suggested and agree to disagree.

 

[idiot09]

I think that's the best way. The previous events are canon. But they can be referenced or ignored by the next director.

I agree. Let every new director not be shackled. Clearly Zack and co agree(even though WB may or may not) :

"Our philosophy, though, is it's filmmaker-driven. A lot of it comes from the idea of "do unto others." How would I feel if I was told, "Listen, this is your movie, but shoot it like we say"? It's not fun and cool, and I don't think you get the best work from everybody. To understand that, there is a bigger storyline, and let's all support that and not blow up the entire universe because you have an idea that you think is awesome but doesn't make sense with the bigger thing.

The mandate is that we try and make the best movies we can. If you're making a Flash movie with Ezra Miller, it's like millennial Flash. It's going to be a little lighter than making a World War I epic with this feminist icon like Wonder Woman. The films do live in a united universe. I feel like the danger is — and I think that the studio would acknowledge this — when you start to mimic things like tone. Then, when you go to the movie, you pretty much know the experience you're going to have. Then it loses a point of view and starts to feel like it's made by a committee."

 

[Erzengel]

I like the continuity. I like the expanded universe in theory. As bad as I thought BvS and SS were, I liked seeing the Flash. I like seeing other heroes/villains in the universe. After 30 years of Batman, Superman and Spider-Man, it's nice to see they aren't alone. Does this cause problems? Yes. But I don't think it's asking for a formula for cold fusion.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I think fanboys worry too much about continuity. Just look at Logan. Mangold just said "***** that BS I am going to tell the story I want to tell my own way" and he did just that. Worked out great.

I dont need every DCEU film to acknowledge all the movies before it and plant seeds for all the movies after it. Just tell the story you want to tell.

That's true but if they did that, the same nitpickers would throw a hissy fit.

 

[Erzengel]

Adam Cozad (The Legend of Tarzan, Jack Ryan: Shadow Recruit) is currently negotiating to write the script.

Not exactly, 2 stellar writing credits, but anyone I guess can have a breakthrough.

 

[Boy Scout]

I like the continuity. I like the expanded universe in theory. As bad as I thought BvS and SS were, I liked seeing the Flash. I like seeing other heroes/villains in the universe. After 30 years of Batman, Superman and Spider-Man, it's nice to see they aren't alone. Does this cause problems? Yes. But I don't think it's asking for a formula for cold fusion.

Agreed. I think the positives of maintaining strong continuity outweigh the negatives.

 

[The Guard]

Not exactly, 2 stellar writing credits, but anyone I guess can have a breakthrough.

No, but the main takeaway for me is that the two films he's written are two more "traditionally structured" and more straightforward films, which people seem to want. He's worked on a moderately budgeted action film and a massively budgeted one, so maybe can find a middle ground in terms of setpieces, action, etc. He may just be doing the advance work on structural elements and handing it off to someone else.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

That's true but if they did that, the same nitpickers would throw a hissy fit.

I don't think anyone would be against just ignoring BvS and the other two garbage films

 

[misslane38]

Yeah, again, you're overthinking this. Let's do as you suggested and agree to disagree.

I'm not, but okay.

the problem with using that picture as analogy for a DCEU reboot is, that it's most certainly the other way round

see, the status quo is hte abomination, every change can just improve the product

You misunderstood. To me, the first painting (in the sequence I originally posted, not what's quoted above) represents the original or, in this case, the iconic characters and whatever nostalgic or ideal version that people want. The second one, even if I disagree with the assessment, is the DCEU to people: it's a degraded image that needs improvement. The third is the attempt to fix the problems with the second that only makes things worse. I don't disagree that changes could improve the DCEU. Just better storytelling and the organic evolution of the stories as they've already been playing out could do that. What I disagree with, then, is that a reboot is the right method of change. To me, it would ruin that which it attempts to fix.

 

[STARMAN]

It's tricky with screenwriters. Most of them have mixed track records and many of these big films have multiple writers, both credited and uncredited. It sounded like he wrote the first draft of Jack Ryan and other writers rewrote it.

There was an old HR article about how WB hired Cozad and Craig Brewer to write separate Tarzan scripts at the same time. WB merged them together. Cozad then worked with the director for the final touches.

 

[BH/HHH]

I agree. Let every new director not be shackled. Clearly Zack and co agree(even though WB may or may not) :

Maybe that's why I'm bored of the MCU approach. It all feels samey to me. Letting new filmmakers come in and put their own spin along with not been tied to loose plot threads feels like the best way to kerp things fresh.

 

[Boy Scout]

I don't think that's a fault of continuity, though. Marvel deliberately insists on things looking and feeling the same.