All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 4

[jmc]

The only reason I gave a damn about Wonder Woman is because it's the only film that showed its hero in a positive light. That 5 mins of No Man's Land alone has more emotional resonance and heroism than anything the other films did combined. Any heroism in MoS is offset by Superman recklessness, any heroism in BvS is offset by its heroes looking like disinterested in doing good, any heroism in JL is offset by bland character development. Wonder Woman has the perfect balance of heroism, obstacles, character development, heart and positivity. I maintain it's going to be looked back on as favourably as what the original Superman movie was in 20 years time, as favourably as The Dark Knight, Spider Man and the first Avengers movie.

 

[MaceB]

Wonder Woman was a breathe of fresh air because the hero wasn't afraid to be, and to act, and to care like a hero should. No internal conflict; no brooding about her roll in the world... she didn't care what the world thought of her... She was confident in who she was. Throw a rock and you get a conflicted dark hero.... but an unashamed do-gooder action hero... now that's a throwback I can appreciate.

 

[misslane38]

You guys do realize WW was about how Diana's gung ho attitude came from naivete and ultimately was altered as a result of disillusionment that had her retreat for a century, right? She aided the Allies, yet they included Ares, and he manipulated her. At one point, she refuses to help Steve or humanity because of her mistaken beliefs. Only Steve's last words echoing in her mind ultimately sway her to a different outlook. WW's a lot more complex than you give it credit for. Likewise, Reeve's Superman gives up heroism for romantic love, caring more for himself than others. Be more accurate and honest about these portrayals.

 

[Flint Marko]

I don’t think Clark’s character was explored much in MOS. I think the idea of him was considered more interesting to the people involved.

Yeah, he was just as much of a cipher in MoS.

 

[misslane38]

Yeah, he was just as much of a cipher in MoS.

How is he a cipher? What don't you know about him that you feel you should know about him? What dimensions does he lack? How does his character lack complexity or roundness? How does he remain static or flat?

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I think you're mixing me up with someone else. I saw it around the time it came out and I basically remember coming away thinking that it was the same movie, just longer and slightly better than what I saw in theaters.

Truth be told I only watched it because there were a fair amount of users here whose opinion of the film dramatically improved once the extended cut was released. I didn't expect a drastic improvement but I was pretty disappointed to find that it was just as much of a slog. A more coherent slog, sure, but still a slog.

Like I said to misslane, the single best part of the UC is Clark calling his mom and waking her up in the middle of the night to ask why Pa never left Kansas. That right there is 100% what I need from this Superman: warmth. Real, genuine humanity and vulnerability. I don't need jokes, I don't need a smile, I just need something to grab on to other than him pouting while people talk at him.

Just say something interesting, please. In that moment he did, but it wound up on the cutting room floor.

Ah okay cool, thanks for your response.

 

[Patchwork Man]

How is he a cipher? What don't you know about him that you feel you should know about him? What dimensions does he lack? How does his character lack complexity or roundness? How does he remain static or flat?

Flint wants to see Clark wearing a milk moustache. t:

 

[jmc]

You guys do realize WW was about how Diana's gung ho attitude came from naivete and ultimately was altered as a result of disillusionment that had her retreat for a century, right? She aided the Allies, yet they included Ares, and he manipulated her. At one point, she refuses to help Steve or humanity because of her mistaken beliefs. Only Steve's last words echoing in her mind ultimately sway her to a different outlook. WW's a lot more complex than you give it credit for. Likewise, Reeve's Superman gives up heroism for romantic love, caring more for himself than others. Be more accurate and honest about these portrayals.

I choose not to give a **** about her portrayal in Bvs and JL. She's a hero in that movie and that's all that matters.

 

[BestGirl]

I think WW's final act is too messy for it to be considered a classic a la TDK, SM1, or The Avengers. It'll be remembered mostly for being the first superheroine movie and the first unproblematic DCEU film.

I choose not to give a **** about her portrayal in Bvs and JL. She's a hero in that movie and that's all that matters.

It still bugs me how Wondy's decision to step away from humanity is totally at odds with how inspired she was by Steve's death. Best to pretend BVS and JL never existed, I guess.

 

[Boy Scout]

I think WW will be considered a good, but overrated film twenty years from now. It’s one of those movies that was made at exactly the right time. I believe it would’ve always been considered a good film, but its cultural impact wouldn’t have been the same even five years ago (IMO). I don’t say any of that to take anything away from the movie’s success, but I don’t think you can ignore the circumstances around which the film was made.

EDIT: The sequel, on the other hand...that one will probably be judged exclusively on its own merits.

 

[misslane38]

I choose not to give a **** about her portrayal in Bvs and JL. She's a hero in that movie and that's all that matters.

Notice how I didn't restrict my analysis to just BvS or JL, though. I said, "she refuses to help Steve or humanity because of her mistaken beliefs." Diana does that in the Wonder Woman film after she mistakenly kills Ludendorff believing he's Ares and is in despair that humanity is still engaging in warfare despite his death.

-If you believe that this war should stop if you want to stop it help me stop it right now. Because if you don't, there will be thousands more. Please, please come with me. I have to go. [...]
- Where is Diana?
- We are on our own.

So, if you want to reject BvS and JL, you'll have to reject WW too.

It still bugs me how Wondy's decision to step away from humanity is totally at odds with how inspired she was by Steve's death. Best to pretend BVS and JL never existed, I guess.

Also, jmc and BestGirl, Diana was a hero in BvS and JL too, just in a different way. I never said she wasn't a hero in those films. I said she was disillusioned from a state of utmost naivete. Before, Diana believed that humans were blameless victims under Ares' sway, and that it was Amazons' sacred duty to defend the world. She came to Man's World with that belief and charged ahead throughout the film showing most humans mercy because she believed they deserved it. The end of the film is the first time she has to shift her belief from helping humans because she believes it's her divine duty and they deserve it as blameless victims with no free will, to helping them because she believes in humans' inherent goodness and agency and thus their ability to choose love.

So that gung ho attitude of hers that is said to be liked so much in the film is one the film -- not BvS or JL -- has her lose by the end of it. It chastises her for it. She chose to kill Germans instead of the Allies because she decided the Allies deserved her protection; yet it was the Allies who were being supported by Ares in the form of Sir Patrick. Ares paid for and supported her, Steve, and his team's mission precisely to manipulate Diana and prime her for temptation. To be clear, if Steve inspires Diana to believe in humans and their capacity to love, then that implies that Diana didn't feel that way before.

It's also important to understand that Steve's inspiration wasn't about public superheroism. What Diana did, and what BvS and JL suggest she did, was serving humanity and supporting their free will to choose love by helping humans in the shadows. She wasn't a public symbol like Superman was. That doesn't mean that she wasn't heroic. She chose to step away from a hero who got her picture taken with her human allies because she believed that humans and gods should stand apart; so that humans would be free to make their own decisions. Like she said at the end of the the movie:

I used to want to save the world. To end war and bring peace to mankind; but then I glimpsed the darkness that lives within their light. I learned that inside every one of them there will always be both. A choice each must make for themselves — something no hero will ever defeat. And now I know that only Love can truly save the world.

Finally, having confidence and clarity isn't inherently a good thing. Bruce had both, if you'll recall, when he thought the right and heroic thing to do to protect Earth was to stop Superman, just as Diana thought she had to stop Ludendorff (Ares). Steve Trevor, like Jonathan Kent or Alfred Pennyworth, serve to provide an alternative point of view that challenges Diana, Clark, or Bruce respectively to consider other possibilities. Jonathan only warns Clark that revealing to humanity that aliens exist has the potential to destabilize the world. Look at how Diana reacted when her sense of the world came crashing down. Look at Zod's. Diana reacted with rage against humans, and Zod became angry and suicidal. He also, through his parable about saving his family farm only to flood the Lang farm, teaches Clark that sometimes doing one act of good might mean living with the nightmares that come from the unintended consequences.

There is nothing wrong with Superman, Wonder Woman, or any hero approaching heroism with enough wisdom to know that decisions aren't always easy to make and what is the best thing to do isn't always clear. There is this great quote in the film Darkest Hour about Winston Churchill that's earning accolades this film awards season which says, "You are strong because you are imperfect. You are wise because you have doubts." Churchill's wife says this to him when he needs encouragement. I think it suits the heroes of the DCEU quite well, and it's a valuable lesson to teach all of us.

 

[jmc]

Notice how I didn't restrict my analysis to just BvS or JL, though. I said, "she refuses to help Steve or humanity because of her mistaken beliefs." Diana does that in the Wonder Woman film after she mistakenly kills Ludendorff believing he's Ares and is in despair that humanity is still engaging in warfare despite his death.

-If you believe that this war should stop if you want to stop it help me stop it right now. Because if you don't, there will be thousands more. Please, please come with me. I have to go. [...]
- Where is Diana?
- We are on our own.

So, if you want to reject BvS and JL, you'll have to reject WW too.

I'll treat WW however the hell I want. if I want to consider WW like a stand alone movie and ignore her depictions in JL and BvS there's sweet **** all you can do to stop me from doing that.

 

[misslane38]

I'll treat WW however the **** I want.

Hypocritically? The second Diana saw the world as it is -- the truth of the Man's World in which Clark came of age -- she abandoned humanity, heroism, and hope. She cannot stop from repeating that we do not deserve her help. She has to stop herself from killing Maru, an act of mercy Superman instinctively offers Lex when he saves him from Doomsday. Diana was Wonder Woman when she was blind, naive, and simplistic. Her embrace of enlightened heroism came only after she was inspired by Steve Trevor.

 

[jmc]

You seem to not be understanding what I'm saying so I'll say it as clearly as I can. Wonder Woman is treated as a stand alone movie that isn't reliant on films before are after for its narrative to be understood. It has a character arc that shows growth by the end of the film that isn't contingent on you having understanding of anything else outside that story. I choose to ignore the other movies because they have no value in the experience for me with the character, and no amount of you trying to justify why I shouldn't do that is going to change my mind. I ignore movies all the time, the fourth Indiana Jones film, any of the Terminators movies after Terminator 2, and recently the Star Wars sequels, all because I feel those movies do a disservice to the films and characters that came before it. You are free to write as many paragraphs as you'd like calling me hypocritical, elitist, contradictory, whatever, I could care less, but no amount of that is going to change how I feel about Wonder Woman.

 

[misslane38]

You seem to not be understanding what I'm saying so I'll say it as clearly as I can. Wonder Woman is treated as a stand alone movie that isn't reliant on films before are after for its narrative to be understood. It has a character arc that shows growth by the end of the film that isn't contingent on you having understanding of anything else outside that story. I choose to ignore the other movies because they have no value in the experience for me with the character, and no amount of you trying to justify why I shouldn't do that is going to change my mind. I ignore movies all the time, the fourth Indiana Jones film, any of the Terminators movies after Terminator 2, and recently the Star Wars sequels, all because I feel those movies do a disservice to the films and characters that came before it. You are free to write as many paragraphs as you'd like calling me hypocritical, elitist, contradictory, whatever, I could care less, but no amount of that is going to change how I feel about Wonder Woman.

jmc, the only film I'm discussing is WW. My previous post was only referring to events and dialogue in WW. It's what Diana tells Steve after killing Ludendorff. The film you are ignoring is the only film you say you care about. It's maddening hypocrisy.

 

[Superchan]

Diana was far more heroic than mopey Clark when one compares their debut solo films side by side. Diana took it upon her self to act and help humanity unlike emo Clark who only decided to help when Zod threatened the planet and forced him to help.
In addition to that Diana was likable and charismatic because she had actual dialogue unlike poor and dialogue challenged Clark who could only emote through sad facial expressions.
Diana was successful in her debut solo because patty Jenkins set out to make a superhero movie while Zack Snyder set out to give us an attempt at a deconstructed superhero movie, which is why Diana was far more heroic in WW than she was in BvS .

 

[misslane38]

Diana was far more heroic than mopey Clark when one compares their debut solo films side by side. Diana took it upon her self to act and help humanity unlike emo Clark who only decided to help when Zod threatened the planet and forced him to help.
In addition to that Diana was likable and charismatic because she had actual dialogue unlike poor and dialogue challenged Clark who could only emote through sad facial expressions.
Diana was successful in her debut solo because patty Jenkins set out to make a superhero movie while Zack Snyder set out to give us an attempt at a deconstructed superhero movie, which is why Diana was far more heroic in WW than she was in BvS .

Diana was not more heroic. Clark saves people, including those who bullied him, when he was a teenager. Diana was still training in secret at the same point in her life. As an adult, Diana leaves home to save the world. As an adult, Clark leaves home and begins saving people as he searches for the truth about his origins. Both Diana and Clark come out of the shadows when they see themselves as the only hope for humanity against a global calamity. Clark comes forward because of Zod. Diana comes forward because of Ares.

Moreover, Diana is not more heroic in WW than she is in BvS. In WW, Diana's naive approach to saving the world endangers lives. Her blind focus on Ludendorff and playing the part of fairy tale savior not only led to the destruction of Veld but also to the death of Steve Trevor. After Diana's foolish mission to kill "Ares" failed, she decided we didn't deserve her help. She decided the bigger mission to save Britain from Maru's poison gas and the end of any hope for armistice was not her mission any more.

- Why are they still fighting?
- Because maybe it's them! Maybe people aren't always good. Ares or no Ares. Maybe it's just, who they are.
- No.
- Diana, we can talk about this later. I need you to come with me.
- No, no!
- After everything I saw, it can't be! Can not be! They were killing each other. Killing people they cannot see. [...] She was right. My mother was right. She said the world of men do not deserve you. They don't deserve our help, Steve.

[...]

- Where is Diana?
- We are on our own.

We were on our own. Steve was on his own. A hero who abandons people who need her when they need her the most is not a hero at all. These were things that happened in Wonder Woman the movie, not in BvS, not in JL. Thankfully, Diana eventually finds her way back to heroism when she fully embraces Steve's point of view.

Diana's heroism does not surpass Clark's heroism simply because he is allegedly mopey. Heroism has nothing to do with likeability or charm. It does not have anything to do with introversion or extroversion. One can be melancholy and heroic.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

I’m also still pretty miffed that the robin suit didn’t play more of a role in either of these Snyder films. We couldn’t even get a name drop or anything. Just a three second stare from Bruce and never another reference to it. I’m pretty biased so of course I feel it should have played a bigger part in Bruce’s behavior in BvS. Remember the fake script going around for a while before the film’s release? even that had better characterization for Batman, and the Jason subplot was used pretty effectively in getting people to sympathize with this Batman.

Maybe it got scrapped along with other stuff Zack wanted to do before all his plans for thrown in the trash. It better be addressed in the solo film.

 

[Vlyse]

I was so excited about the Robin suit appearing in the BVS Comic-Con trailer. Its appearance there was heavily emphasized, only for, like you say, 3 seconds in the film.

After that disappointment, I thought there was a plan to address Jason Todd and the Batfamily in the Bat solo. But so much has changed since then. We received news of Affleck wanting to put Deathstroke in The Batman, then Nightwing and Batgirl were announced to headline their own movies, and now Reeves' has his own vision for a trilogy unbound by DCEU continuity.

 

[MbJ]

A good video discussing Hamada and how we got here.

[YT]gdYwaFgK0D4[/YT]

 

[2kt09]

A good video discussing Hamada and how we got here.

[YT]gdYwaFgK0D4[/YT]

Oh, I thought Johns was still co-producing. If he's only a consultant now, these upcoming "producer" creds obviously need to be updated.

 

[Skrilla31]

How is he a cipher? What don't you know about him that you feel you should know about him? What dimensions does he lack? How does his character lack complexity or roundness? How does he remain static or flat?

He barely even has much dialogue in the movie. In fact I'm not even sure he has more to say in this movie than Jor-El. But even then what little dialogue he has is almost entirely informed by the story, not any semblance of a personality.

The line about the lifesavers had personality but it felt like it came out of left field because it was already the middle of the movie and Clark hadn't been established as as witty guy.

 

[unholyrevenger]

Heroism has nothing to do with likeability or charm. It does not have anything to do with introversion or extroversion. One can be melancholy and heroic.

This is why BvS is in my top 3 favorite superhero movie for carrying this strong message.

though for a lot of people it ain't heroism if it doesn't come with a smile.

 

[Iceman]

This is why BvS is in my top 3 favorite superhero movie for carrying this strong message.

though for a lot of people it ain't heroism if it doesn't come with a smile.

For me heroes don’t spend quite that long ignoring what the other is saying/trying to say and beating the **** out of each other for nearly a whole film. I don’t need them to smile, I need their ‘genius’ intellect to kick in to at least basic mode.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Wonder Woman was a breathe of fresh air because the hero wasn't afraid to be, and to act, and to care like a hero should. No internal conflict; no brooding about her roll in the world... she didn't care what the world thought of her... She was confident in who she was. Throw a rock and you get a conflicted dark hero.... but an unashamed do-gooder action hero... now that's a throwback I can appreciate.

Until she decided that mankind wasn't worth it and took a break for nearly 100 years.