All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 4

[misslane38]

For me heroes don’t spend quite that long ignoring what the other is saying/trying to say and beating the **** out of each other for nearly a whole film. I don’t need them to smile, I need their ‘genius’ intellect to kick in to at least basic mode.

Emotions override intellect all the time, and what exactly would intellect have done?

 

[Superchan]

This is why BvS is in my top 3 favorite superhero movie for carrying this strong message.

though for a lot of people it ain't heroism if it doesn't come with a smile.

If we're talking about BvS then heroism isn't about trying to murder someone in cold blood just because there is a 1% chance that said someone might turn bad.
If we're talking about BvS then heroism isn't about turning and running when things don't go your way like superman did when he went to the arctic or where ever the hell that was and started.... hallucinating (?) more of Pa Kent's crap monologues.
Also wasting time trying to beat the s**t out of someone even though one's mom is on the clock isn't just unheroic but plain stupid.

We don't need superman to perform heroic deeds with a smile but it would be nice for a character that is supposed to embody hope (Snyder's assertion and not just comic lore) to try and be uplifting while performing heroic acts instead of spewing out garbage dialogue like "no one stays good in this world".

 

[jmc]

This isn't real life. Superheroes are larger than life characters who are meant represent the best in humanity and inspire people. If you make it look like they don't give a ****, audiences won't give a **** either. People like heroes who have positive values.

 

[misslane38]

for a character that is supposed to embody hope (Snyder's assertion and not just comic lore) to try and be uplifting while performing heroic acts instead of spewing out garbage dialogue like "no one stays good in this world".

This isn't real life. Superheroes are larger than life characters who are meant represent the best in humanity and inspire people. If you make it look like they don't give a ****, audiences won't give a **** either. People like heroes who have positive values.

The most popular and beloved superhero of 2017. Our symbol of hope:

My mother was right. She said the world of men do not deserve you. They don't deserve our help, Steve.

None of the DCEU heroes have been portrayed as not caring. Clark cares but is trying to figure out how best to show it. Bruce cares but loses his way. His mindset and methods are misguided, and the film chastises him for this. He changes. Diana has a difficult time adjusting to the world -- its truths and traumas. She makes misguided decisions that cost lives. She abandons humanity, too. She loses hope.

 

[jmc]

And a few minutes later after that quote: 'They are everything you said, and so much more.' She abandoned hope in BvS, that was retconned in WW. That's why Wonder Woman is a stand alone film.

 

[Superchan]

And a few minutes later after that quote: 'They are everything you said, and so much more.' She abandoned hope in BvS, that was retconned in WW. That's why Wonder Woman is a stand alone film.

I honestly hope that going forward WB will stick to solos and do their best to retcon all the s**t that Snyder tried to shove down our throats starting with emo, dialogue challenged superman to psycho batman to the Joel Schumacher lex luthor to 'f**k humanity' wonderwoman and even dead Jimmy Olsen. And for an added bonus they should just kill off Lois Lame just for fun.

 

[misslane38]

And a few minutes later after that quote: 'They are everything you said, and so much more.' She abandoned hope in BvS, that was retconned in WW. That's why Wonder Woman is a stand alone film.

No, it wasn't abandoned in WW. Diana abandoned Steve after killing Ludendorff didn't cleanse humanity of its darkness. She's the reason he was on his own, and he's the reason she changed her mind about humanity. Her words to Ares are not her own: they are mirroring Steve's last words. So, not only did Diana's initial positive attitude come from her complete ignorance and naivete about the world, it's those exact same things that caused her to lose her faith so completely that she made Steve deal with the poison plot on his own initially at the moment when that worldview was challenged (i.e. when the spirit of war continued even after she killed Ludendorff whom she thought was Ares). Sure, she comes around, but it's not until she does that she has a mature view of the world and a mature heroism.

You chastise Superman for having doubts even though he doesn't permanently succumb to them. He undergoes a similar emotional journey post-Capitol bombing as Diana does post-Veld, and his doubts aren't even as total or as cynical as Diana's sentiments following the dud death of Ludendorff. Clark steps away from the world after the Capitol bombing because he is concerned Superman is doing more harm than good. He's thinking about how best to serve humanity; he's not abandoning it. Diana abandoned us. And, later, despite saying "No one stays good in this world," Superman immediately seeks out Bruce and apologizes to him. He doesn't resign himself to darkness or defeat. He never falls as far as Diana does in her disillusionment.

Look, I respect and admire all of the heroes of the DCEU Trinity because I see universal truths reflected in each of them. Neither of them is perfectly good nor perfectly hopeful. I just have such a difficult time understanding the double standards. Not only the double standards applied to Superman and Wonder Woman, but also the double standards applied to DCEU Superman and previous incarnations of the character.

 

[jmc]

Mirroring words that she believed in. The point is even when challenged, even when her worldview was completely destroyed she found enough hope and positivity to cling onto. That's what heroes do. They rise to the challenge, whether physical or emotional, and grow from the experience to become even better. That's a positive representation that people like to see. Her world view changed, but her optimism didn't, it merely shifted.

 

[Iceman]

Emotions override intellect all the time, and what exactly would intellect have done?

Batman and Superman had continual misunderstandings that went on for nearly the whole film. Batman was cutting Superman off and going into all out confrontation mode. His greatest detective skills might have led to him deducing the truth faster than nearly the end of the film. And after Supes had been cut off when trying to give pertinent information he should have decided - don’t lead in anymore, just get right to the facts (scream them from afar if necessary) rather than wasting valuable seconds saying things along the lines of - Bruce, you don’t understand.

Emotions can override intellect the first time they meet and even the 2nd in exceptional circumstances. After that I would either stop calling them heroes or just call them well intentioned dumbasses.

 

[misslane38]

Batman and Superman had continual misunderstandings that went on for nearly the whole film.

What misunderstandings? They both perceived the other as being a danger to others. Batman's belief was based on a mix of his PTSD and concern about the future threat Superman posed. There's no way to convince Batman that Superman won't be that threat one day. As for Superman, he didn't misunderstand. Batman did brand criminals, and one of those branded was put in critical condition as a result of an attack while in prison. He may have believed the second victim who died also died because of Batman, when it was Luthor who made that one happen. However, for Luthor's scheme to work Batman had to brand that man even though he already knew it put the first guy in the hospital. Batman did, so Luthor took advantage, and Superman wasn't wrong to think that Batman was out of line. He was in this movie.

Batman was cutting Superman off and going into all out confrontation mode. His greatest detective skills might have led to him deducing the truth faster than nearly the end of the film.

The truth wouldn't have mattered, because that's not what affected Batman enough to change in the end. Knowing Superman had lived a human life and had a human mother and girlfriend wouldn't have made a difference. What ultimately got through to him was a combination of factors happening all at once.

Superman has to say, "Save Martha. You're letting him kill Martha" to unsettle Batman, and it does because Batman's self-concept is wrapped up in the idea that he's a guy who doesn't let innocent people suffer like he did: he's not someone who lets Marthas die and Joe Chills win. He's not a villain. Hearing that an innocent named Martha needs help, he stops but still holds the spear in his hand. Once Lois is on the scene, more happens to get him to stand down. Lois puts herself in the path of danger, which makes Batman recall his own mother protecting him, and then Lois explains that Martha is Superman's mother. That, combined with everything else that happened previously, is what gets through and makes a difference. It's not just knowing that Clark has a human mother named Martha. Deduction wouldn't have helped in this case.

And after Supes had been cut off when trying to give pertinent information he should have decided - don’t lead in anymore, just get right to the facts (scream them from afar if necessary) rather than wasting valuable seconds saying things along the lines of - Bruce, you don’t understand.

Facts don't matter to Batman. He doesn't register them as facts or Superman as a reliable source of information.

Emotions can override intellect the first time they meet and even the 2nd in exceptional circumstances. After that I would either stop calling them heroes or just call them well intentioned dumbasses.

No, emotions don't work like that. Emotions always have the potential to override intellect, and intellect can't solve every problem including this one.

 

[Iceman]

What misunderstandings? They both perceived the other as being a danger to others. Batman's belief was based on a mix of his PTSD and concern about the future threat Superman posed. There's no way to convince Batman that Superman won't be that threat one day. As for Superman, he didn't misunderstand. Batman did brand criminals, and one of those branded was put in critical condition as a result of an attack while in prison. He may have believed the second victim who died also died because of Batman, when it was Luthor who made that one happen. However, for Luthor's scheme to work Batman had to brand that man even though he already knew it put the first guy in the hospital. Batman did, so Luthor took advantage, and Superman wasn't wrong to think that Batman was out of line. He was in this movie.



The truth wouldn't have mattered, because that's not what affected Batman enough to change in the end. Knowing Superman had lived a human life and had a human mother and girlfriend wouldn't have made a difference. What ultimately got through to him was a combination of factors happening all at once.

Superman has to say, "Save Martha. You're letting him kill Martha" to unsettle Batman, and it does because Batman's self-concept is wrapped up in the idea that he's a guy who doesn't let innocent people suffer like he did: he's not someone who lets Marthas die and Joe Chills win. He's not a villain. Hearing that an innocent named Martha needs help, he stops but still holds the spear in his hand. Once Lois is on the scene, more happens to get him to stand down. Lois puts herself in the path of danger, which makes Batman recall his own mother protecting him, and then Lois explains that Martha is Superman's mother. That, combined with everything else that happened previously, is what gets through and makes a difference. It's not just knowing that Clark has a human mother named Martha. Deduction wouldn't have helped in this case.



Facts don't matter to Batman. He doesn't register them as facts or Superman as a reliable source of information.



No, emotions don't work like that. Emotions always have the potential to override intellect, and intellect can't solve every problem including this one.

What got through to Batman in the end involved a great deal of luck. If Supes had died before getting the chance to say what he did or if Lois hadn't got there in time to explain then he would have killed the guy and condemned his mother while helping the villain. Now if the villain had come across as having a mind that was capable of outwitting Batman that easily (like TDK Joker did, and how Lex Luthor should have come across), then it would have been easier for me to swallow.

Also keeping your emotions under control is part of growing up. Otherwise it wouldn't even be a crime for people to commit murders in the heat of passion when they catch their loved one cheating. Also a reason why most law-abiding adults don't fight people outside of self defence no matter if a family member has just died or their house has just burned down. Those with superpowers need to have an even tighter control of their emotions or a stray punch is going to result in tragedy.

 

[misslane38]

What got through to Batman in the end involved a great deal of luck. If Supes had died before getting the chance to say what he did or if Lois hadn't got there in time to explain then he would have killed the guy and condemned his mother while helping the villain. Now if the villain had come across as having a mind that was capable of outwitting Batman that easily (like TDK Joker did, and how Lex Luthor should have come across), then it would have been easier for me to swallow.

It's not luck, not really. It's what Tolkien would call eucatastrophe:

I coined the word 'eucatastrophe': the sudden happy turn in a story which pierces you with a joy that brings tears (which I argued it is the highest function of fairy-stories to produce). And I was there led to the view that it produces its peculiar effect because it is a sudden glimpse of Truth, your whole nature chained in material cause and effect, the chain of death, feels a sudden relief as if a major limb out of joint had suddenly snapped back. It perceives – if the story has literary 'truth' on the second plane (....) – that this is indeed how things really do work in the Great World for which our nature is made. And I concluded by saying that the Resurrection was the greatest 'eucatastrophe' possible in the greatest Fairy Story – and produces that essential emotion: Christian joy which produces tears because it is qualitatively so like sorrow, because it comes from those places where Joy and Sorrow are at one, reconciled, as selfishness and altruism are lost in Love.

It is a moment of grace. Bruce even shares his redemptive "Men are still good..." speech while juxtaposed with a performance of "Amazing Grace."

Amazing Grace, How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost, but now am found
T'was blind but now I see
T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear
And Grace, my fears relieved
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed

Also keeping your emotions under control is part of growing up. Otherwise it wouldn't even be a crime for people to commit murders in the heat of passion when they catch their loved one cheating. Also a reason why most law-abiding adults don't fight people outside of self defence no matter if a family member has just died or their house has just burned down. Those with superpowers need to have an even tighter control of their emotions or a stray punch is going to result in tragedy.

Come on, now. First, keeping your emotions under control is a sign of maturity, but you are either ignorant or naive if you think adults are not subject to mental illness or losing control. All adults lose control of their emotions from time to time. Second, Batman is not absolved of his actions because his PTSD influenced his homicidal crusade against Superman. His PTSD merely explains rather than excuses his inability to rationally engage with Superman until he was exposed to an emotional trigger that had a remedial effect similar to exposure therapy treatment. Finally, as I'm sure you are aware, Batman didn't kill Superman, so ultimately he was able to reign in his emotions.

 

[MbJ]

Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daley (Spider-Man: Homecoming) are the new Flashpoint directors.
http://variety.com/2018/dirt/news/f...-francis-daley-jonathan-goldstein-1202665854/

The studio approached Affleck to direct, but he said no.

 

[Frodo]

Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daley (Spider-Man: Homecoming) are the new Flashpoint directors.
http://variety.com/2018/dirt/news/f...-francis-daley-jonathan-goldstein-1202665854/

The studio approached Affleck to direct, but he said no.

While I'm still very wary of the studio handling Flashpoint , SMHC was quite good and the type of humor in that certainly would fit well with Miller's version of the Flash.

We'll see if they let them tell the story the way they want to tell it or shove mandates down their throats.

 

[LaughterLives]

Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daley (Spider-Man: Homecoming) are the new Flashpoint directors.
http://variety.com/2018/dirt/news/f...-francis-daley-jonathan-goldstein-1202665854/

The studio approached Affleck to direct, but he said no.

hahahahahahahaha! The fact that they asked Affleck proves to me more than anything that they still have no idea what they hell they're doing.

 

[unholyrevenger]

Look, I respect and admire all of the heroes of the DCEU Trinity because I see universal truths reflected in each of them. Neither of them is perfectly good nor perfectly hopeful. I just have such a difficult time understanding the double standards. Not only the double standards applied to Superman and Wonder Woman, but also the double standards applied to DCEU Superman and previous incarnations of the character.

Double standards are just feeling and thus have no basis in rationality. Most dudes see some ladies making out they think it's hot. Most women see two dude makin out they are ambivalent to it. Having a rational conversation is impossible.

 

[unholyrevenger]

If we're talking about BvS then heroism isn't about trying to murder someone in cold blood just because there is a 1% chance that said someone might turn bad.
If we're talking about BvS then heroism isn't about turning and running when things don't go your way like superman did when he went to the arctic or where ever the hell that was and started.... hallucinating (?) more of Pa Kent's crap monologues.
Also wasting time trying to beat the s**t out of someone even though one's mom is on the clock isn't just unheroic but plain stupid.

We don't need superman to perform heroic deeds with a smile but it would be nice for a character that is supposed to embody hope (Snyder's assertion and not just comic lore) to try and be uplifting while performing heroic acts instead of spewing out garbage dialogue like "no one stays good in this world".

Nothing heroic or inspirational about losing your way and having the courage to step back onto the righteous path and hope your peers will take you back or accept you.

Nothing heroic or inspirational about caring about how much indirect damage you're causing with your decisions, or stopping to reflect on your past decisions and reaffirm your motivations for future decisions.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

If Ben (who for all intents and purposes is one foot out the door) couldn’t/no longer wanted to direct the Batman solo, why on god’s Green earth would he want to direct the Flashpoint movie?

Jesus, WB. Get it together.

 

[MbJ]

If Ben (who for all intents and purposes is one foot out the door) couldn’t/no longer wanted to direct the Batman solo, why on god’s Green earth would he want to direct the Flashpoint movie?

Jesus, WB. Get it together.

I'm guessing for the same reason the reports said they tried to initially keep Snyder on Justice League. They know Affleck leaving is gonna look bad.

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

Frosty from Collider

https://***********/colliderfrosty/status/953634466307588096

Been offline a lot the past 24 hours. Just heard people have been reporting Ben Affleck was offered Flashpoint. According to my sources that is absolutely not true.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

If Paul Thomas Anderson actually wants to make a Teen Titans film, my god. WB you better give that man the entire kingdom.

 

[Superchan]

Nothing heroic or inspirational about losing your way and having the courage to step back onto the righteous path and hope your peers will take you back or accept you.

Nothing heroic or inspirational about caring about how much indirect damage you're causing with your decisions, or stopping to reflect on your past decisions and reaffirm your motivations for future decisions.

I think you mean UN-heroic don't you?

 

[TheVileOne]

Nothing heroic or inspirational about losing your way and having the courage to step back onto the righteous path and hope your peers will take you back or accept you.

Nothing heroic or inspirational about caring about how much indirect damage you're causing with your decisions, or stopping to reflect on your past decisions and reaffirm your motivations for future decisions.

There's really not any of that in Justice League or Batman v Superman.

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

Justin Kroll from Variety

https://***********/krolljvar/status/953732482112700416

I don't really have time to debate or argue the Affleck element of my FLASHPOINT story, especially since the news is that Daley and Goldstein got the job.

All I'll say is Affleck was approached by WB about directing it in the last week and that's coming from people in his camp and from WB, so believe it, don't believe it, I honestly don't care. I've moved on to the next one

 

[Frodo]

Justin Kroll from Variety

https://***********/krolljvar/status/953732482112700416

I believe it. Affleck is the ex that WB can't get over , despite family, friends , and co-workers telling them to do so.