All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 5

[MbJ]

I don't think anyone rejected the return to the Christopher Reeve version of Superman after Superman Returns. Audiences rejected a poor attempt of a Donner rehash that made Clark Kent/Superman a mute with 0% of the charisma that Reeve's Superman exuded. Man of Steel tried to go the other direction with a more serious attempt but at the same time still found a way to make the exact same mistake as Superman Returns in making Superman a mute with zero charisma and the personality of a doorknob. You can explore deep themes and all that stuff all the live long day but if your title character is written as poorly as he's been in the last few Superman movies audiences will continue to shun those portrayals because there's nothing to warm up to or root for.

That's what gets me. It feels like there are far more obvious reasons for the failure of the various films that WB somehow keeps missing. Superman 3 and 4 did not bomb because people suddenly hated a classic, iconic-style Superman. They failed because they were terrible movies (with the last one even being made on a shoestring budget). Same for Superman Returns. Its sin was not that Superman wasn't edgy enough. Its sin was being utterly boring.

There has been this consistent notion that audiences hate classic-style Superman and were demanding a grittier, bleaker take on the character, but it's just as likely (if not more so) that audiences just want a Superman movie they don't think sucks.

 

[misslane38]

I didn't really count, but I recall a number of directors expressed interest in Superman. I think there's also the studio and producers. They always try to swim on trends.

I thought the rumors were that directors kept turning down the opportunity to work on Superman. Look at the field right now. It doesn't look like anyone is chomping at the bit to get their hands on Superman. Vaughn's interest has been lip service at best. McQuarrie is angling for the job essentially at a friend's request. But there isn't any director of merit out there with a clear vision and passion for Superman. Even those who, like Vaughn, are mostly familiar with and attached to the Reeve version of the character aren't banging on WB's door to get their project produced. WB is basically giving away films like candy now. Where's the long line of up-and-coming young directors or masters of the craft seeking the green light?

 

[The Guard]

I don't think anyone rejected the return to the Christopher Reeve version of Superman after Superman Returns. Audiences rejected a poor attempt of a Donner rehash that made Clark Kent/Superman a mute with 0% of the charisma that Reeve's Superman exuded.

I mean I was on the boards. I watched it happen for years.

People went "You know, it'd be cool if they sort of redid this Donner element, and that Donner element", and then complained about it when it happened.

Audiences and about half the fans rejected Superman not punching anything. That was the main complaint...that, and his morals being too far out there (the kid, etc). They didn't want a straight drama.

Routh being a block of wood/Superman being mute wasn't the hot button issue at the time, as I recall. His charisma was actually praised in reviews and by many fans. It was Superman not kicking enough ass, and the threats not being cool enough. People were tired of Lex Luthor.

Guess what people wished for en masse, then? That's right. Superman VS Zod or Braniac. Massive fights and destruction.

Man of Steel tried to go the other direction with a more serious attempt but at the same time still found a way to make the exact same mistake as Superman Returns in making Superman a mute with zero charisma and the personality of a doorknob.

I don't remember people complaining that much about Routh's Superman unless they were addressing his acting. I actually recall the "alienation" element being praised pretty widely around here. A lot of people actually wanted to see more of that approach back then. To see an exploration of that, and Superman's place in the world, etc.

You can explore deep themes and all that stuff all the live long day but if your title character is written as poorly as he's been in the last few Superman movies audiences will continue to shun those portrayals because there's nothing to warm up to or root for.

I think everyone is aware that the character needs to be more likeable. WB clearly is.

 

[Superchan]

I just don't agree that it's so hard to please Superman fans. I think most of us agree that we want a lighter, more optimistic, and fun portrayal of Superman. The people that want a dark and gritty Superman are the people who think he needs to be fundamentally changed to be interesting. Those people aren't fans.

Agreed. All fans of all IPs are hard to please to a degree, but if you make a good movie about a particular IP the fans will come around. Most of us superman fans want a charismatic, optimistic, likable superman and instead we got a mopey, emo, dialogue challenged version and so we're dissatisfied.

With the more recent projects, a good vocal majority of them clamored for a return to the Chris Reeve Superman, rejected it after SUPERMAN RETURNS, then clamored for more a serious and violent Superman and films that explored the issues that the world would face if Superman existed, and then rejected that when they got it. There's a balance that needs to be struck with the character, and it's not as easy as it seems. Comics writers often report the same kinds of issues when they take on/handle the character.

SR was supposed to be the Chris Reeve superman but Routh's emo, mopey version was nothing like Chris Reeve's charming, likable take hence why the fans rejected it, so it shouldn't be concluded that people rejected a repeat of the Chris Reeve Superman but rather Singer's bastardization of it.
As for MOS, people didn't want a more violent superman movie but rather an action filled superman story to offset the snore fest that was SR and Snyder did deliver on the action but like Singer before him he also delivered an emo, mopey version with the charisma of a skunk and hence the fans rejected that version also.
Whether a superman movie is dark and introspective like SR and BvS or dark and violent like MOS or just light and fun like JL is irrelevant because it's never been about tone and that's something that Warners never got.
Making a good movie in general is a monumental task but said task becomes insurmountable if the filmmakers ignore the fundamental task of creating a likable, appealing character at the heart of it.

 

[The Batman]

Blaming the fictional character for the short comings of the real people tasked with bringing him to the big screen.... Unbelievable

GL fans love pulling that kind of crap when they attempt to justify replacing Hal in a future film with someone else.

 

[Superchan]

I mean I was on the boards. I watched it happen for years.

People went "You know, it'd be cool if they sort of redid this Donner element, and that Donner element", and then complained about it when it happened.

Audiences and about half the fans rejected Superman not punching anything. That was the main complaint...that, and his morals being too far out there (the kid, etc). They didn't want a straight drama.

Routh being a block of wood/Superman being mute wasn't the hot button issue at the time, as I recall. His charisma was actually praised in reviews and by many fans. It was Superman not kicking enough ass, and the threats not being cool enough. People were tired of Lex Luthor.

Guess what people wished for en masse, then? That's right. Superman VS Zod or Braniac. Massive fights and destruction.


I don't remember people complaining that much about Routh's Superman unless they were addressing his acting. I actually recall the "alienation" element being praised pretty widely around here. A lot of people actually wanted to see more of that approach back then. To see an exploration of that, and Superman's place in the world, etc.

I think everyone is aware that the character needs to be more likeable. WB clearly is.

Just because the loudest complaint was the lack of action doesn't mean it was the only wide complaint.
I was on the boards as long as you have and yes you're right most people complained about the lack of action and how boring the film was but plenty of people also complained about how introspective superman was and how he was an ***hole for leaving without a word and how he was an even bigger ***hole for trying to break up a happy family and how he was a dead beat dad etc. Basically people complained that Superman's character sucked!
Lots of people also complained about how Routh wasn't given enough material to work with and how he was forced to imitate someone else's take and not being allowed to atleast bring something fresh to the character.
In many ways it's similar to the issue with Henry these days where people recognize that Cavill as an actor is charming and likable but was saddled with a director that sucked the life out of him.

Yeah, after SR people wanted more action and rightfully so but what they got was a mind numbing amount of it in MOS where the last act was pretty much one building crumbling after another with superman contributing to people's death as much as his opponent was.
To go back to the steak analogy it's like giving someone a raw piece of steak and when said person asks for the steak to be cooked alittle bit you give them an over-cooked, dry steak and when that person complains you put your hands up in the air and say 'I give up! you didn't like it raw and you didn't like it cooked, I can't win with you'.....how about making the steak medium rare or medium!! There is something called balance and yes i get the fact that balance is difficult to achieve but with 100's of millions of dollars and access to massive resources such a task shouldn't be made out to being as impossible as it was.

 

[STARMAN]

It's a mistake to blame the character instead of the creative teams. It was said Wonder Woman doesn't work onscreen or Captain American can't be done successfully in this day and age. It's an excuse for poor execution.

 

[FunkMiller]

It's a mistake to blame the character instead of the creative teams. It was said Wonder Woman doesn't work onscreen or Captain American can't be done successfully in this day and age. It's an excuse for poor execution.

Yes, well for some it’s more convenient and easier to blame the character, than it is the people responsible for making movies with him in it that suck.

 

[unholyrevenger]

Man of Steel tried to go the other direction with a more serious attempt but at the same time still found a way to make the exact same mistake as Superman Returns in making Superman a mute with zero charisma and the personality of a doorknob.

Worked for DCAU Superman, well angry Doorknob. The Problem isn't his personality. It's no one wants to see Supes go through the growing pains of learning to be Superman. MoS, BvS, Smallville all show that but with mostly negative reaction. StAS and Superman the movie just skip over that **** with a splash card that says "6 years later".

 

[Tg11]

My honest opinion of why DC cannot make a great Superman film is quite simply put the writers. I mean they obviously are not staying true to the source material well some of them do but at the same time I guess it is more or less because of the direction. However, Warner Brothers is a part no a very, very big part of the problem. It is more or less because of their PR team but also because of the fact that executives interfere a lot hence why DCEU fails every time in comparison to Marvel. Feige at least he knows what he's doing overseeing their universe while we do not have a Feige like figure at DC. If we did, our universe would actually succeed.

 

[unholyrevenger]

My honest opinion of why DC cannot make a great Superman film is quite simply put the writers. I mean they obviously are not staying true to the source material

Staying true to the source material doesn't really matter, the MCU is proof of that.

 

[Tg11]

Staying true to the source material doesn't really matter, the MCU is proof of that.

Yeah but at the same time they need a Feige in the DCEU and the DCEU obviously doesn't have that hence why we can't compete

 

[unholyrevenger]

Yeah but at the same time they need a Feige in the DCEU and the DCEU obviously doesn't have that hence why we can't compete

While i do agree the dceu needs a dude to lord over the directors and say "Stick to Formula", the only competition exists within the heads of fanboys.

 

[Tg11]

I guess you are right I can see your point

 

[ManWithNoName18]

While i do agree the dceu needs a dude to lord over the directors and say "Stick to Formula", the only competition exists within the heads of fanboys.

Well they tried Snyder Brain Trust, the Berg/Johns, now we got Hamada/Johns

third times charm?

 

[brandeezy89]

Yeah but at the same time they need a Feige in the DCEU and the DCEU obviously doesn't have that hence why we can't compete

Yeah but would be a Feige? A lot of people say Timm when he's never produced a live-action movie. Feige has been a producer on a bunch of Marvel films before the MCU was created and was a fanboy growing up.

There's literally no other producer in Hollywood that could be a Feige besides the man himself. Best case scenario would be for them to get a Producer in general who knows how to make movies work and has a great relationship with the studio (Ex. David Heyman). Pair him with someone who knows the source material, those two meet with writers and tell them what they can and cannot do (Cuts out polarizing decisions). Then directors who are interested meet with the writers, producer & comic source guy to come up with the best scripts.

Hopefully Hamada/Johns have this sort of mindset

 

[Tg11]

Yeah but would be a Feige? A lot of people say Timm when he's never produced a live-action movie. Feige has been a producer on a bunch of Marvel films before the MCU was created and was a fanboy growing up.

There's literally no other producer in Hollywood that could be a Feige besides the man himself. Best case scenario would be for them to get a Producer in general who knows how to make movies work and has a great relationship with the studio (Ex. David Heyman). Pair him with someone who knows the source material, those two meet with writers and tell them what they can and cannot do (Cuts out polarizing decisions). Then directors who are interested meet with the writers, producer & comic source guy to come up with the best scripts.

Yes and in doing that you install renewed hope within the DCEU

 

[C. Lee]

Staying true to the source material doesn't really matter, the MCU is proof of that.

In my mind....it's not so much "staying true" to the source as much as it is at least "being close" to the source.

To me....the Captain America of the MCU is pretty darn close to the source material, but the Superman from MoS and BvS was about as far away from it as you can get.

 

[unholyrevenger]

Well they tried Snyder Brain Trust, the Berg/Johns, now we got Hamada/Johns

third times charm?

feige isn't batting a 1000. He put out some bad movies before striking gold with Iron Man and he's dropped a couple of turds into the MCU, and a whole lotta medicority to tide him over between actual good movies. *haven't seen Infinity war yet.

 

[unholyrevenger]

To me....the Captain America of the MCU is pretty darn close to the source material, but the Superman from MoS and BvS was about as far away from it as you can get.

Why? because he was lost for the majority of his life? because he struggles with being Superman? Because he has his doubts about what he's doing is the right thing? because he struggles to uphold the ideals he tries to be the paragon of?

 

[Tg11]

Yeah and the closest thing to a Captain America in the DCEU is Wonder Woman and they managed to get that film done right all be it Diana's film is in World War 1 as opposed to World War 2 which is her true origin more or less

 

[samsnee]

DC is in a tough spot. They would probably reboot the whole thing if Wonder Woman hadn’t turned out to be such a huge success critically and financially. Not sure how you can continue building a universe when most of the foundation is still crumbling.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Probably why they're entertaining the idea of killing the crossovers off. They are on tough spot indeed. They could soft reboot and make JL 2 introduce a multiverse where our current league all die and lose to a foe in the beginning and we get introduced to the corrected universe JL. Be that with new cast members or whatever. Lol

 

[OutOfBoose]

I thought the rumors were that directors kept turning down the opportunity to work on Superman. Look at the field right now. It doesn't look like anyone is chomping at the bit to get their hands on Superman. Vaughn's interest has been lip service at best. McQuarrie is angling for the job essentially at a friend's request. But there isn't any director of merit out there with a clear vision and passion for Superman. Even those who, like Vaughn, are mostly familiar with and attached to the Reeve version of the character aren't banging on WB's door to get their project produced. WB is basically giving away films like candy now. Where's the long line of up-and-coming young directors or masters of the craft seeking the green light?

Do we often see people banging on a studio's door to direct a superhero movie overall? We usually learn about it post-fact when the deal is made or some obscure interviews where this or that director drops something like "would be cool".

I'm still not convinced that the problem is Superman the character. While people complain that they want to see this or that from a Superman movie, I think it still comes down to "how it's done" and not "what is being done", with some reservations.

 

[FunkMiller]

I thought the rumors were that directors kept turning down the opportunity to work on Superman. Look at the field right now. It doesn't look like anyone is chomping at the bit to get their hands on Superman. Vaughn's interest has been lip service at best. McQuarrie is angling for the job essentially at a friend's request. But there isn't any director of merit out there with a clear vision and passion for Superman. Even those who, like Vaughn, are mostly familiar with and attached to the Reeve version of the character aren't banging on WB's door to get their project produced. WB is basically giving away films like candy now. Where's the long line of up-and-coming young directors or masters of the craft seeking the green light?

Well now, it's almost as if the last guy did such a bad job that it's turned the Superman franchise into a poison chalice...

The same way nobody wanted to touch Batman for half a decade after B&R.

Don't worry. Once the dust settles, and the DCEU has rightly died the death it so richly deserves to, someone will want to take on Superman, much the same way Nolan did with Batman.

Because the problem isn't the character... it's the people making the movies.