All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 5

[FunkMiller]

Ah, I see. I understand now. You have a problem with using context for comprehension across the board. Because the way you have characterized my argument? Completely out of context.

I did not say the line is okay because it's how BvS portrayed Superman. I said the line means something different than what you are saying it means based on the context of the rest of the film. "No one stays good in this world." The rest of the film contextualizes the line as one that means that no one stays "all good" forever. And, it's true, as Bruce's final monologue explains: "We fight. We kill. We betray one another. But we can rebuild. We can do better. We will. We have to." BvS, as a film, is making the case that "good" is not a status quo that, once lost, cannot be recovered. Redemption is possible. What falls isn't fallen, as Bruce wrongly believed at the start of the film. Superman's "No one stays good in this world" is an acknowledgment that he may have to do something imperfect -- something that challenges his goodness. But he is not saying that no one can ever be good or find goodness again.

You cannot judge the meaning of the line out of the entire context of the film. It was not said in isolation. It was obviously said to contribute to an overall theme or thesis. And the film's overall theme or thesis is that what falls is not fallen. One may not "stay good," but one can always find one's way back to the light. Good is a conversation -- an ebb and flow -- and not a promise one can keep.

I do not have a problem with such a different interpretation of the character because Superman, in that moment, is no different than every other interpretation of the character. Every version of Superman does not believe that everyone can be good all the time. Every version of Superman does not believe that those that fall are fallen. In the recent Action Comics #1000 issue, Geoff Johns revisits the first issue of the comic in which Superman saved Lois from Butch, a criminal and a sexual harrasser. Superman reaches out to him because he believes that even though Butch has not stayed good, he can be good again. And, by the end of the comic, Butch seems like he's heading down a different path.

"No one stays good in the world" is an important and vital lesson for Superman and anyone to understand. Because no one does stay good. We may be born with a tabula rasa or an uncorrupted soul, but we will make mistakes. We will sin, fall, and do bad things. But those things do not have to set our fate. Not staying good does not mean staying bad. Which is to say that the point you were making was dead wrong because your point was that the line, and how it characterizes Superman, is apocryphal: it isn't something any Superman should think or say. It isn't something Superman should think or say if you only heard him say it out of context. When you look at the bigger picture, it puts his words into a broader context that changes the meaning you are ascribing to it.

I also want to point out that often when Superman killing Zod in Superman II is brought up, people say it's fine or works better because of the context of the whole movie's tone and reception. Likewise, Hippolyta is just as if not worse in her attitude toward Diana's heroism than the Kents, and Diana says incredibly pessimistic things about humanity, even essentially disowns it at one point, but there is no such uproar. In short, I think you're mistaken and unfair in your analytical approach.

 

[misslane38]

Great comeback. Whatever. Agree to disagree, I guess. Knowing how you hate going around in circles, I'll assume by these gifs that you're done with this conversation. If you want to talk to me more about this, do it via private message. Thank you.

 

[jondoe]

Ah, I see. I understand now. You have a problem with using context for comprehension across the board. Because the way you have characterized my argument? Completely out of context.

I did not say the line is okay because it's how BvS portrayed Superman. I said the line means something different than what you are saying it means based on the context of the rest of the film. "No one stays good in this world." The rest of the film contextualizes the line as one that means that no one stays "all good" forever. And, it's true, as Bruce's final monologue explains: "We fight. We kill. We betray one another. But we can rebuild. We can do better. We will. We have to." BvS, as a film, is making the case that "good" is not a status quo that, once lost, cannot be recovered. Redemption is possible. What falls isn't fallen, as Bruce wrongly believed at the start of the film. Superman's "No one stays good in this world" is an acknowledgment that he may have to do something imperfect -- something that challenges his goodness. But he is not saying that no one can ever be good or find goodness again.

You cannot judge the meaning of the line out of the entire context of the film. It was not said in isolation. It was obviously said to contribute to an overall theme or thesis. And the film's overall theme or thesis is that what falls is not fallen. One may not "stay good," but one can always find one's way back to the light. Good is a conversation -- an ebb and flow -- and not a promise one can keep.

I do not have a problem with such a different interpretation of the character because Superman, in that moment, is no different than every other interpretation of the character. Every version of Superman does not believe that everyone can be good all the time. Every version of Superman does not believe that those that fall are fallen. In the recent Action Comics #1000 issue, Geoff Johns revisits the first issue of the comic in which Superman saved Lois from Butch, a criminal and a sexual harrasser. Superman reaches out to him because he believes that even though Butch has not stayed good, he can be good again. And, by the end of the comic, Butch seems like he's heading down a different path.

"No one stays good in the world" is an important and vital lesson for Superman and anyone to understand. Because no one does stay good. We may be born with a tabula rasa or an uncorrupted soul, but we will make mistakes. We will sin, fall, and do bad things. But those things do not have to set our fate. Not staying good does not mean staying bad. Which is to say that the point you were making was dead wrong because your point was that the line, and how it characterizes Superman, is apocryphal: it isn't something any Superman should think or say. It isn't something Superman should think or say if you only heard him say it out of context. When you look at the bigger picture, it puts his words into a broader context that changes the meaning you are ascribing to it.

I also want to point out that often when Superman killing Zod in Superman II is brought up, people say it's fine or works better because of the context of the whole movie's tone and reception. Likewise, Hippolyta is just as if not worse in her attitude toward Diana's heroism than the Kents, and Diana says incredibly pessimistic things about humanity, even essentially disowns it at one point, but there is no such uproar. In short, I think you're mistaken and unfair in your analytical approach. Characterization is made up of more than one line of dialogue, and in this case the line isn't even one that reflects poorly on Superman.

Help Me Find The Others like You.

 

[Superchan]

Okay... I'll go through this one more time.

I state that Superman would never say "No-one stays good in this world" as a criticism of the way the character is portrayed in Batman v Superman................

m1ll3r my friend, honest to god save your breath, there will always be a small number of fans who liked/loved BvS and Snyder's iteration of superman (well within their right) and you shouldn't even attempt to change that; just take solace in the fact that Snyder's iteration of the character failed miserably as did the rest of his DCEU plans and if we are going to see another outing with Cavill's superman then it won't be anything like the one we got in BvS.

 

[Astro13Zombie]

m1ll3r my friend, honest to god save your breath, there will always be a small number of fans who liked/loved BvS and Snyder's iteration of superman (well within their right) and you shouldn't even attempt to change that; just take solace in the fact that Snyder's iteration of the character failed miserably as did the rest of his DCEU plans and if we are going to see another outing with Cavill's superman then it won't be anything like the one we got in BvS.

Never thought I’d agree with one of your posts.

First time for everything

 

[unholyrevenger]

Help Me Find The Others like You.

I'm one of them.

 

[FunkMiller]

m1ll3r my friend, honest to god save your breath, there will always be a small number of fans who liked/loved BvS and Snyder's iteration of superman (well within their right) and you shouldn't even attempt to change that; just take solace in the fact that Snyder's iteration of the character failed miserably as did the rest of his DCEU plans and if we are going to see another outing with Cavill's superman then it won't be anything like the one we got in BvS.

I know. You’re absolutely right. I think I have a masochistic streak t:

 

[misslane38]

m1ll3r my friend, honest to god save your breath, there will always be a small number of fans who liked/loved BvS and Snyder's iteration of superman (well within their right) and you shouldn't even attempt to change that; just take solace in the fact that Snyder's iteration of the character failed miserably as did the rest of his DCEU plans and if we are going to see another outing with Cavill's superman then it won't be anything like the one we got in BvS.

I know. You’re absolutely right. I think I have a masochistic streak t:

I think I'll save this post and bring it out whenever you or Superchan try to rehash old Snyder (MoS, BvS) criticism. You know, to save you from yourselves (your masochism) because, as these posts prove, any further argument of that nature would be evidence of insecurity: it would be a sign that you are threatened that BvS has fans and can't take solace in its lack of success. Imagine what a relief it will be to put this business behind you for good.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Was there a way to deliver the same meaning without making Superman look so depressed and detached, uttering "no one stays good in this world"? No, I'm not saying to make him throw smiles on every occasion or any BS like that. People run with the word "hope" in the film but nobody ever radiates the actual hope. And Superman radiates misery. The most uplifting and hopeful part in the film is the grave. We're glad that Superman has finally found peace.

It just looked like an attempt to look as edgy and adult as possible. Very pretentious. The idea is there, but execution...

 

[Poppy]

What's happening with the Gotham City Sirens movie? I completely misunderstood and thought that Cathy Yan was hired to direct GSC but it's actually for Birds of Prey .

I've read several comments that claimed that BoF will have the GSC in it, but i don't understand why since I couldn't find any official sources to back it up.

I'm guessing that WB are prioritizing BoF to introduce Barbara and do next her solo movie. I'm not even sure the GSC movie is still happening .

 

[unholyrevenger]

Was there a way to deliver the same meaning without making Superman look so depressed and detached, uttering "no one stays good in this world"? No, I'm not saying to make him throw smiles on every occasion or any BS like that. People run with the word "hope" in the film but nobody ever radiates the actual hope. And Superman radiates misery. The most uplifting and hopeful part in the film is the grave. We're glad that Superman has finally found peace.

It just looked like an attempt to look as edgy and adult as possible. Very pretentious. The idea is there, but execution...

There in lies the problem. Most people confuse confidence, bravado, charisma and optimism as hope, you can't radiate hope. Think of it like this, at the end of Fury Road, the group isn't optimistic about their chances of getting through the war parties, canyon and back to the oasis, but they still do it because they have hope.

 

[Willi Berg]

What's happening with the Gotham City Sirens movie? I completely misunderstood and thought that Cathy Yan was hired to direct GSC but it's actually for Birds of Prey .

I've read several comments that claimed that BoF will have the GSC in it, but i don't understand why since I couldn't find any official sources to back it up.

I'm guessing that WB are prioritizing BoF to introduce Barbara and do next her solo movie. I'm not even sure the GSC movie is still happening .

I think it's about BOP being the priority and GCS being on the backburner for now. Firstly, David Ayer is going to make Bright 2 for Netflix, so isn't available for GCS. Then BOP has to be sorted out as to who will be featured. Apparently there are two versions of the script. Both feature Batgirl and Harley but the rest of the characters are different in the two versions. So I think once they figure out who will make up that movie then they can decide how to move forward with GCS, which might feature some of the same characters.

There is also the Harley vs. Joker movie that is being developed. That could also come after BOP and Suicide Squad 2 (SS2 most likely the movie after BOP.) These all feature Harley Quinn, which will mean a lot of her, then some of the same characters, so they go with what they can do now, actor and director availability etc. So these ones in development may or may not happen.

 

[Poppy]

Thank you for the informations.

I hope they can find an other director for GSC, a female would be nice.

And I can't believe the Harley/Joker movie is still happening, I thought they scrapped that idea.

 

[Mandon Knight]

The fact Ayer isn't available is frankly a god-send.

 

[Willi Berg]

The fact Ayer isn't available is frankly a god-send.

 

[OutOfBoose]

There in lies the problem. Most people confuse confidence, bravado, charisma and optimism as hope, you can't radiate hope. Think of it like this, at the end of Fury Road, the group isn't optimistic about their chances of getting through the war parties, canyon and back to the oasis, but they still do it because they have hope.

I meant hope figuratively. The scene didn't need bravado or showy confidence. But affection and determination to do things right would certainly help this version of Superman. Because after Pa Kent's rant and Lex's rant, leaving Superman in the state of submission and misery, and then execute idiot plot so the fight happens, and another idiot plot so Batman wins, then another idiot plot so they lose the spear so Superman can FINALLY die and don't bother Justice League, isn't satisfying in my eyes. And looks like not only in mine.

 

[WereCoyote]

So is the DCEU officially dead, or are they going to continue this fatally flawed universe. And if its dead, is there any chance they will reboot and course correct a shared DC Cinematic Universe soon?

 

[2kt09]

So is the DCEU officially dead, or are they going to continue this fatally flawed universe. And if it's dead, is there any chance they will reboot and course correct a shared DC Cinematic Universe soon?

Aquaman coming out this year.

 

[OutOfBoose]

They probably don't even know themselves yet.

 

[misslane38]

I meant hope figuratively. The scene didn't need bravado or showy confidence. But affection and determination to do things right would certainly help this version of Superman. Because after Pa Kent's rant and Lex's rant, leaving Superman in the state of submission and misery, and then execute idiot plot so the fight happens, and another idiot plot so Batman wins, then another idiot plot so they lose the spear so Superman can FINALLY die and don't bother Justice League, isn't satisfying in my eyes. And looks like not only in mine.

The film shows what real hope means by showing you what it looks like. Hope looks like someone who recognizes and feels the pain and suffering of life, yet continues to proceed as though things could be better. Superman does this by not immediately approaching Batman as though he is not worth reaching. He does this by apologizing to Bruce and asking for his help. He does this by trying this approach twice before adopting a non-lethal demonstration of force. He does this by using his last breaths to still try to get through to Bruce.

And, um, Pa Kent's rant? Pa Kent doesn't rant in the film at all. His memory tells Clark that it's worth fighting through the nightmares of life because love shines through all things. Pa Kent is teaching his son the true meaning of grace. The mercy Superman shows Lex in the scout ship, when he saves Lex from the fist of his abomination, you know the heart of his rant, is what reveals Superman to be a merciful, graceful, and hopeful character. When it comes to Superman, it is vital to be a symbol of hope. Someone whose actions show the world a better way and shows the world how to be better.

There's nothing more satisfying to me than to see Superman have the same human emotions as you and me, and for him to move forward with grace, mercy, and hope.

 

[Mandon Knight]

So is the DCEU officially dead, or are they going to continue this fatally flawed universe. And if its dead, is there any chance they will reboot and course correct a shared DC Cinematic Universe soon?

Depends which kack handed moron at WB is flicking the coin to decide heads or tails.

 

[OutOfBoose]

The film shows what real hope means by showing you what it looks like. Hope looks like someone who recognizes and feels the pain and suffering of life, yet continues to proceed as though things could be better. Superman does this by not immediately approaching Batman as though he is not worth reaching. He does this by apologizing to Bruce and asking for his help. He does this by trying this approach twice before adopting a non-lethal demonstration of force. He does this by using his last breaths to still try to get through to Bruce.

And, um, Pa Kent's rant? Pa Kent doesn't rant in the film at all. His memory tells Clark that it's worth fighting through the nightmares of life because love shines through all things. Pa Kent is teaching his son the true meaning of grace. The mercy Superman shows Lex in the scout ship, when he saves Lex from the fist of his abomination, you know the heart of his rant, is what reveals Superman to be a merciful, graceful, and hopeful character. When it comes to Superman, it is vital to be a symbol of hope. Someone whose actions show the world a better way and shows the world how to be better.

There's nothing more satisfying to me than to see Superman have the same human emotions as you and me, and for him to move forward with grace, mercy, and hope.

I'm well aware we see this film differently.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I think it's about BOP being the priority and GCS being on the backburner for now. Firstly, David Ayer is going to make Bright 2 for Netflix, so isn't available for GCS. Then BOP has to be sorted out as to who will be featured. Apparently there are two versions of the script. Both feature Batgirl and Harley but the rest of the characters are different in the two versions. So I think once they figure out who will make up that movie then they can decide how to move forward with GCS, which might feature some of the same characters.

Thanks for the update - I'd been wondering about BoP

So is the DCEU officially dead, or are they going to continue this fatally flawed universe. And if its dead, is there any chance they will reboot and course correct a shared DC Cinematic Universe soon?

I don't think they'll abandon it. They'll just adjust as they deem necessary.

 

[FunkMiller]

So is the DCEU officially dead, or are they going to continue this fatally flawed universe. And if its dead, is there any chance they will reboot and course correct a shared DC Cinematic Universe soon?

The problem that they’ve got, is that thanks to a combination of greed, idiocy and hubris, they put the production of films in motion before realising that Snyder and co had served up a massive turd with BvS. Aquaman is the latest and last of these pre-planned movies that have to be related to the godawful mess of a cinematic universe they created. James Wan is a talented guy, so the film might be good, but it’s crippled right out of the gate, thanks to being associated with BvS and JL.

I’m sure Shazam will have nothing to do with the DCEU, nor will New Gods, Spielberg’s movie, or any other films you’ve heard announced recently. Only WW2 will be, and only because Gal Gadot will be in it. So, for all intents and purposes, the DCEU will be dead very soon... and good riddance.

 

[Zarex]

The MCU has definitely benefited from the fact that the Marvel heroes have always had a tighter continuity than their DC counterparts. The greatest DC stories are primarily "elsewords" tales, and it makes sense that stories not sharing the same continuity would make up the bulk of their cinematic output as well.