All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - Part 90

[Lencho01]

The whole idea that Kal/Clark doesn't do what he chooses to do for his own reasons flies in the face (pun intended to some degree) of one of the best lines of dialogue from the movie itself (as some have taken it as a sig, even):

What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society had intended? What if a child aspired to something greater?

Surely I can't be the only one that sees that, right?

Didn't Jor-El kinda choose his destiny?

 

[Lencho01]

Article of interest...

Is Superman Too Old Fashioned for 'Man of Steel' to Soar?

 

[Mad Love]

The whole idea that Kal/Clark doesn't do what he chooses to do for his own reasons flies in the face (pun intended to some degree) of one of the best lines of dialogue from the movie itself (as some have taken it as a sig, even):

What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society had intended? What if a child aspired to something greater?

Surely I can't be the only one that sees that, right?

Except that line was said by Jor-El and the context was about Clark not being genetically engineered for a specific purpose by Kryptonian society.

 

[MrMaooz]

Article of interest...

Is Superman Too Old Fashioned for 'Man of Steel' to Soar?

 

[br0adband]

Was that line in the movie? I forget things.

Yes, it is: Jor-El says it to Kal when they're inside the scout ship having their first "meeting" as the case is and the point where Jor-El shows him the Genesis Chamber:

Jor-El: "Your Mother and I believed Krypton lost something precious: the element of choice, of chance. What if a child dreams of becoming something other than what society intended for him one day? What if a child aspired to something greater. You are the embodiment of that belief, Kal, Krypton's first natural birth in centuries. It's why we risked so much to save you."

In the trailers, they cut that important line and don't include the "... to be one day" part so the line is "What if a child dreams of becoming something other than what society intended?" which has a completely different meaning in some respects. Four little words have a big impact when they're actually there, at least to me.

 

[dark_b]

What? That's not a problem. He saved the kids in the bus. He made that decision himself. Every time he went out to save people as a mystery strong man he made all those decisions himself. Clark was a hero without anyone telling him to be.

And Superman always got guidance from both parents. You're reaching when you say he was told what to do. His parents just conveyed that he has a lot of potential and shouldn't take it for granted.

young Lex Luthor and young Zod and every supervillain would save the kids in the bus if they were next to those kids.the oil rig scene was also happening very close to him.

i mean Clark Kent is a good guy. its not like he is mentally challenged and would literally NOT do anything if someone is dying next to him.thats why Pa kents '' maybe '' is so problematic even in the context of the movie.

he is hidding like an animal in the forest. he jumps from the ship saves the people and goes back hidding. he does this until Jor-el explains him who he is. then he again hides since he doesnt come out until Zod call's him. again Clark Kent is a good guy with common sense. so of course he comes out when Zod threatens to destroy the world.

but i think its a big problem that Clark Kent doesnt make a lot decisions in this movie alone. i guess some dont understand me because they had parents who told them what they can and what they can not do. or maybe they are parents and dont understand what it means to give a child A CHOICE.

 

[br0adband]

Except that line was said by Jor-El and the context was about Clark not being genetically engineered for a specific purpose by Kryptonian society.

As noted, you should probably fix the quote in your sig since it's incorrect.

 

[br0adband]

Article of interest...

Is Superman Too Old Fashioned for 'Man of Steel' to Soar?

The simple answer to that question, after reading that trite review, is:

"Nope, not even."

 

[TheIrishAvenger]

Yes, it is: Jor-El says it to Kal when they're inside the scout ship having their first "meeting" as the case is and the point where Jor-El shows him the Genesis Chamber:

Jor-El: "Your Mother and I believed Krypton lost something precious: the element of choice, of chance. What if a child dreams of becoming something other than what society intended to be one day? What if a child aspired to something greater. You are the embodiment of that belief, Kal, Krypton's first natural birth in centuries. It's why we risked so much to save you."

In the trailers, they cut that important line and don't include the "... to be one day" part so the line is "What if a child dreams of becoming something other than what society intended?" which has a completely different meaning in some respects. Four little words have a big impact when they're actually there, at least to me.

Ah yes, I remember now. Thanks

 

[InJustice]

Didn't Jor-El kinda choose his destiny?

For Jor-El to choose Kal-El's destiny, it would imply that he would have to force the pod to enter the exact coordinates of Smallville, Kansas and knew ahead of time that Pa and Ma Kent were perfect parents for their child. Since the movie didn't imply that, Jor-El launches the rocket in the hopes that Kal-El turns out right.

Personally, I see it as a Red Son situation, where the location Kal-El ends up in will play a big role in what kind of a Superman we get.

 

[br0adband]

Didn't Jor-El kinda choose his destiny?

Well let's see here...

Jor-El's line of thinking: "So either I put my son in a space pod and send him off to a planet far away to survive us and become an inspiration to others and be practically a god in their eyes, or I stand around here knowing that he and Lara and myself and everyone else including everything that Krypton is becomes lost forever when this world destroys itself because of our own stupidity."

Seems pretty cut and dried.

The more important question is still relevant:

As a Father, what wouldn't you do to protect your son?

 

[Lencho01]

young Lex Luthor and young Zod and every supervillain would save the kids in the bus if they were next to those kids.the oil rig scene was also happening very close to him.

i mean Clark Kent is a good guy. its not like he is mentally challenged and would literally NOT do anything if someone is dying next to him.thats why Pa kents '' maybe '' is so problematic even in the context of the movie.

he is hidding like an animal in the forest. he jumps from the ship saves the people and goes back hidding. he does this until Jor-el explains him who he is. then he again hides since he doesnt come out until Zod call's him. again Clark Kent is a good guy with common sense. so of course he comes out when Zod threatens to destroy the world.

but i think its a big problem that Clark Kent doesnt make a lot decisions in this movie alone. i guess some dont understand me because they had parents who told them what they can and what they can not do. or maybe they are parents and dont understand what it means to give a child A CHOICE.

I think part of the problem is that we didn't really get to see "Superman". It was more of story about Kal-El. The Superman stuff is saved for the sequel, I guess.

 

[Mad Love]

young Lex Luthor and young Zod and every supervillain would save the kids in the bus if they were next to those kids.the oil rig scene was also happening very close to him.

i mean Clark Kent is a good guy. its not like he is mentally challenged and would literally NOT do anything if someone is dying next to him.thats why Pa kents '' maybe '' is so problematic even in the context of the movie.

he is hidding like an animal in the forest. he jumps from the ship saves the people and goes back hidding. he does this until Jor-el explains him who he is. then he again hides since he doesnt come out until Zod call's him. again Clark Kent is a good guy with common sense. so of course he comes out when Zod threatens to destroy the world.

Really not buying your logic. I guess I didn't see the same movie as you. Of course, Clark doesn't make decisions alone because he cares about other people and what they think. He respects Jonathan's belief not to reveal himself, but it's still in his nature to be selfless and help people. So what does he CHOSE to do? He finds a solution to go around helping people anonymously.

but i think its a big problem that Clark Kent doesnt make a lot decisions in this movie alone. i guess some dont understand me because they had parents who told them what they can and what they can not do. or maybe they are parents and dont understand what it means to give a child A CHOICE.

You think you're the only one to rebel against your parents? I think you're overreacting.

 

[dark_b]

Well let's see here...

Jor-El's line of thinking: "So either I put my son in a space pod and send him off to a planet far away to survive us and become an inspiration to others and be practically a god in their eyes, or I stand around here knowing that he and Lara and myself and everyone else including everything that Krypton is becomes lost forever when this world destroys itself because of our own stupidity."

Seems pretty cut and dried.

The more important question is still relevant:

As a Father, what wouldn't you do to protect your son?

why couldnt Jor-el just send byby Kal away to Earth to save him and live. why couldnt Kal alone find a reason to save everyone?

dont you see how you forced Jor-El decision ? why does Jor-El need to tell his son that he should become an ideal of hope and save everyone?

there is a line '' you can save her.....you can save everyone''. why did he need to tell him that? at that moment he should be ready to do this without him. i disagree with this decision from WB and Goyer.

 

[Lencho01]

For Jor-El to choose Kal-El's destiny, it would imply that he would have to force the pod to enter the exact coordinates of Smallville, Kansas and knew ahead of time that Pa and Ma Kent were perfect parents for their child. Since the movie didn't imply that, Jor-El launches the rocket in the hopes that Kal-El turns out right.

Personally, I see it as a Red Son situation, where the location Kal-El ends up in will play a big role in what kind of a Superman we get.

Well let's see here...

Jor-El's line of thinking: "So either I put my son in a space pod and send him off to a planet far away to survive us and become an inspiration to others and be practically a god in their eyes, or I stand around here knowing that he and Lara and myself and everyone else including everything that Krypton is becomes lost forever when this world destroys itself because of our own stupidity."

Seems pretty cut and dried.

The more important question is still relevant:

As a Father, what wouldn't you do to protect your son?

Well, it seemed to me that Jor-El had some other plans for his son than to just survive Krypton's destruction. All that talk of leading them and saving them, putting the codex in him, him being some connection between Krypton and Earth (maybe he did want him to make a new Krypton, but without killing Earthlings. I don't know).

 

[Mad Love]

As noted, you should probably fix the quote in your sig since it's incorrect.

How is it incorrect? It's a quote. Your reading of it is what's incorrect. You should probably fix that.

 

[dark_b]

You think you're the only one to rebel against your parents? I think you're overreacting.

sorry for my bad english. with that i meant that my parents did give me a choice. doesnt mean that if i asked them to buy me a pony that they would. it was all about explaining their child what it meant and why i coudlnt get it. the same with fighting or violence. the same with responsebility. they never told me to not to drink and smoke. they said that its not healthy and that you can get problems . and i never smoked in my life.
my grandmother was like a nanny to me when i was very small. my parents sometimes worked through the night. there i could see a big contrast. she was oldschool. so it was all about '' that is bad and that is good ''. and i am seeing this with young parents today. they are becoming lazy. they are not spending enough time parenting their children. its faster and easier to tell them '' thats bad end of story''. i disagree.

Jonathan did a lot wrong IMO.as a parent. i think we needed a scene where Martha said '' NO Jonathan. this is wrong''. she is always standing next to her husband. when he is dead its like her only purpose is to talk about him to Clark. i know that hollywood is afraid that fanboys would think that their male heroes is a momma's boys. but come on. where was Matha's point of view?

 

[br0adband]

why couldnt Jor-el just send byby Kal away to Earth to save him and live. why couldnt Kal alone find a reason to save everyone?

dont you see how you forced Jor-El decision ? why does Jor-El need to tell his son that he should become an ideal of hope and save everyone?

there is a line '' you can save her.....you can save everyone''. why did he need to tell him that? at that moment he should be ready to do this without him. i disagree with this decision from WB and Goyer.

The proper line is (which keeps getting misquoted just like that other one I just fixed) is:

"You can save her, Kal. You can save all of them."

And it's necessary because Kal in his Earth upbringing never really had Jonathan pat him on the back and tell him "You can save her, Kal. You can save all of them." All Jonathan was meant to do was protect him, not make him into Superman - Jonathan's teachings were all about "Someday, you'll have to make a decision on what kind of man you want to become."

He even says that in the movie: his purpose is to keep Kal/Clark safe and protected from the world itself knowing his secret - in time Kal/Clark would have to figure out what to do with his life past the point of Jonathan making those decisions.

Jor-El's purpose is to provide his history, his background, where he came from, but never to directly control his future: that was completely left to chance when the space pod or whatever the hell it's officially known as launched from the House of El. Once it launched, Fate in some ways determined how things would go from there.

Kal/Clark made his own choices, more often than not. He chose to save those kids on the bus even in spite of Jonathan teaching him that he can't do things which might expose him to the world. Kal/Clark made that choice even knowing the potential outcome (being exposed) because it was the right thing to do - TADA!!! Jonathan taught him right from wrong and yet he went against his Dad's wishes and saved those kids anyway.

He does it many times even in spite of us not being able to directly witness it: going against Jonathan's wishes.

And the one time we see him actually honoring Jonathan's wishes that's the time when Jonathan makes the choice to give his life to - AGAIN - protect his son.

Seriously... you either get it or you don't, or you have some other purpose in proposing these somewhat baffling lines of thought.

 

[br0adband]

How is it incorrect? It's a quote. Your reading of it is what's incorrect. You should probably fix that.

The dialogue that comes out of Russell Crowe's mouth is as follows, exactly word for word:

"What if a child dreamed of becoming something other than what society intended for him one day? What if a child aspired to be something greater?"

Now look at what your sig has and look at what Russell actually said in the scene in the theatrical release of the movie. Actually count the number of words if necessary. Surely you can see they're not exactly the same, right?

 

[Mad Love]

The dialogue that comes out of Russell Crowe's mouth is as follows, exactly word for word:

"What if a child dreams of becoming something other than what society intended to be one day? What if a child aspired to something greater?"

Now look at what your sig has and look at what Russell actually said in the scene in the theatrical release of the movie. Surely you can see they're not exactly the same, right?

Surely you fail to realize I had this sig before the movie was released, and I was quoting the line as it appeared in the trailer. It's not incorrect. It's how it is in the trailer.

 

[br0adband]

Surely you fail to realize I had this sig before the movie was released, and I was quoting the line as it appeared in the trailer. It's not incorrect. It's how it is in the trailer.

"Whatever."

 

[dark_b]

The proper line is (which keeps getting misquoted just like that other one I just fixed) is:

"You can save her, Kal. You can save all of them."

And it's necessary because Kal in his Earth upbringing never really had Jonathan pat him on the back and tell him "You can save her, Kal. You can save all of them." All Jonathan was meant to do was protect him, not make him into Superman - Jonathan's teachings were all about "Someday, you'll have to make a decision on what kind of man you want to become."

He even says that in the movie: his purpose is to keep Kal/Clark safe and protected from the world itself knowing his secret - in time Kal/Clark would have to figure out what to do with his life past the point of Jonathan making those decisions.

Jor-El's purpose is to provide his history, his background, where he came from, but never to directly control his future: that was completely left to chance when the space pod or whatever the hell it's officially known as launched from the House of El. Once it launched, Fate in some ways determined how things would go from there.

Kal/Clark made his own choices, more often than not. He chose to save those kids on the bus even in spite of Jonathan teaching him that he can't do things which might expose him to the world. Kal/Clark made that choice even knowing the potential outcome (being exposed) because it was the right thing to do - TADA!!! Jonathan taught him right from wrong and yet he went against his Dad's wishes and saved those kids anyway.

He does it many times even in spite of us not being able to directly witness it: going against Jonathan's wishes.

And the one time we see him actually honoring Jonathan's wishes that's the time when Jonathan makes the choice to give his life to - AGAIN - protect his son.

Seriously... you either get it or you don't, or you have some other purpose in proposing these somewhat baffling lines of thought.

are you joking? i am trying to have a debate with you.

your whole post is copy/paste dialoge from the movie .and you are describing scenes from the movie. i am not trying to change your opinion of the movie. i am asking you why couldnt he do it alone. wouldnt you?

you wrotte Jonathan's teachings were all about "Someday, you'll have to make a decision on what kind of man you want to become." but he doesnt. he doesnt make this choice. before finding the ship he is doing what his father told him. hidding. and he is hidding like a cat or a dog. after he talks to the hologram he does everything the hologram tells him. the hologram told him that he can save her and save all of them.

at the end you wrotte that i dont get it. that is not nice. since my whole post was asking questions and writting that i disagree with the decision that the creative made. it doesnt have to be black and white. i like you or i dont like the movie. i am right or you are wrong. it can be more complicated. we can have deep debates. t:


that my internet friends is whats scaring me. the internet is changing. i understand that you get very short opinions about movie on bodybuilding and car forums . MOS is praised on those forums. MOS is a badass movie to those people who go in the theater to see action and badass man punching and kicking. but i hope we on SHH are doing something more then just writting like ,hate,bad,good.

 

[br0adband]

*snip*

But... but... he did do it alone.

And the "you either get it or you don't" point is about my explanation, not the movie.

 

[X Knight]

Clark wasn't totally hiding from the world. he still went around helping people.

 

[InJustice]

Well, it seemed to me that Jor-El had some other plans for his son than to just survive Krypton's destruction. All that talk of leading them and saving them, putting the codex in him, him being some connection between Krypton and Earth (maybe he did want him to make a new Krypton, but without killing Earthlings. I don't know).

Jor-El's motivations did imply that he was interested in giving Krypton another chance. But he wasn't like General Zod in the sense that he would do it no matter what, thus he left Kal-El with the choice of reviving Krypton if he wanted to via making his DNA the Codex. Kal's choice speaks for itself.