All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 92

[Herolee10]

If Batman's the "Rhodes" of the MOS trilogy, it could still be a high quality set of films.
But if they give him about equal billing, then it could steal Superman's films away from him.

Yep. So true.

This better be treated more like a MOS sequel than a standalone World's Finest film since it's utter BS that Superman can't get his own solo trilogy while Batman has been able to, hell even Iron Man as well.

 

[Moridin]

He also wrote Batman Begins, Blade, Blade II and oh yeah co wrote the Dark Knight.

Selectively inaccurate.

Begins - Wrote story, co-wrote script with C Nolan
TDK - Co-wrote story, not involved in script, that was Chris & Jonah.

What about other films he's written?

Nick Fury: Agent of Shield - written by
Blade Trinity - written & directed by
The Unborn - written by
Ghost Rider: SOV - story, co-wrote screenplay
Jumper - co-wrote screenplay

I should be excited that they are starting JL with World's Finest rather than just bowling straight in. It's what I have ALWAYS wanted them to do, and if I wasn't still feeling a bit numb from MOS i'd probably get sucked in by the lure of fangasm

But they just announced it by quoting the worst (IMO) Superman/Batman story ever told.

And when I think about that, and I think about the kinds of things Snyder loves and the kind of writing we get from Goyer... well, I can't help but be dubious.

Just like with MOS, I think there will be a tonne of focus on making the fight scenes look awesome and having some really 'cool' moments.

But I don't have any faith that they will truly capture the dynamics between Supes and Bats. And I worry about Batman taking the focus of Supes before he's even had a chance to really build in popularity.

I'm pretty much in "Whatever" mode after MOS. Based on that and how the Superman/Batman relationship is popularly shown, I'm not surprised they opened it with that quote. So, I'm prepared for Superman to look like some kind of idiot.

Yarp.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Again, I can see Batman being a true and trustworthy friend. Someone who offers support and advice, and occasionally does undercover missions to protect Clark.
This would add levity to the story, while keeping it focused on Supes.

Mos2 should be all about the aftermath of MOS, and how the events shaped the people of Metropolis, the world, and Supes itself. In a shared universe, it would be a shame to not find clever ways of incorporating other superheroes.

If Batman was in this universe, I think he'd confront Superman on the damage he's caused and the fact that he couldn't find a better way.

This could allow Superman to give a great speech on why sometimes being a hero means making difficult choices BUT also demonstrate the regret at the people he couldn't save and his inability to control the damage. That has to be addressed anyway.

Why not with a fellow hero?

Give Batman a somewhat minor supporting role in MOS2, and you can have him enter the fray as equals in the sequel. If not, WF would be an epically missed opportunity.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

God anybody but David bloody Goyer, WB.

Nolan kept him on a leash but Snyder is an even worse writer than Goyer is.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

To be honest, I am not happy about this folks. I really wanted to see MOS 2 and further establish Superman before he met Batman.

This really feels like a slap in the face because I just can't trust DC to portray Superman right whenever Batman is in the picture.

I would be fine if Bruce Wayne had a few scenes in the movie, then have him as Batman at the end or in a end credits scene.

It's a HUGE slap to the face. I was looking forward to a MOS sequel. Now I'm not so sure.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Selectively inaccurate.

Begins - Wrote story, co-wrote script with C Nolan
TDK - Co-wrote story, not involved in script, that was Chris & Jonah.

What about other films he's written?

Nick Fury: Agent of Shield - written by
Blade Trinity - written & directed by
The Unborn - written by
Ghost Rider: SOV - story, co-wrote screenplay
Jumper - co-wrote screenplay

Yarp.

Yep. Goyer's a loose cannon whose best stuff tends to be collaborative. Hopefully Zack's gonna borrow HEAVILY from a lot of great comics in order to bring out the best in Goyer.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

God anybody but David bloody Goyer, WB.

Nolan kept him on a leash but Snyder is an even worse writer than Goyer is.

WB, bring Dini back from retirement. Just bring the DCAU in live action, and have them collaborate with Zack, ESPECIALLY on the writing! And get someone who can write believable dialog!

 

[InJustice]

WB, bring Dini back from retirement. Just bring the DCAU in live action, and have them collaborate with Zack, ESPECIALLY on the writing! And get someone who can write believable dialog!

People are already complaining about Superman losing his thunder, getting the DCAU into film/Paul Dini, would just make it even worse.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ Not if the "World of Cardboard" speech gets whipped out

 

[Herolee10]

People are already complaining about Superman losing his thunder, getting the DCAU into film/Paul Dini, would just make it even worse.

Yep Yep; and he and Timm are the ones that have always preferred Batman over Superman and if they got their hands on the creative process of this, then we should practically say goodbye to the badass superman that was established in MOS.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ Good point. I don't want scenes like this in live action: [YT]uklSyanOQfY[/YT]

 

[InJustice]

I'd like to believe that Snyder and Goyer are objective enough to see that Superman would own Batman in hand-to-hand by virtue of his superstrength.

I'm expecting a scene where Batman tries to punch Superman's chest, only to realize it doesn't hurt him. I'm also expecting that when Superman gets the upper hand, Batman will be all "WHY DON'T YOU KILL ME, LIKE WHAT YOU DID TO YOUR FELLOW KRYPTONIAN?" *maniacal smile.*

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I'd love it if Superman's eyes, then glowed red with heat vision, and then he used the vision a few inches away from Bruce, just to scare Batman.

 

[Tempest]

Good point. After The Avengers broke box office records, WB was on suicide watch and finally decided to make a JL movie based on Marvel's success with The Avengers

I was hoping to see MOS 2 with Lex's campaign against Super Man because of the desruction of Metropolis. Basically, Lex uses Supes as a scapegoat, someone to blame for what happened in their city.

Now, it just seems to me Warners panicked over some of the reaction Man of Steel has gotten and have decided to bring out the big gun team up rather than a Man of Steel sequel. And they want to make more money (coz like it or not, this will break box office records and will hit a billion).

Lex could still be a part of the new film. He may be playing both sides, and pitting them against each other.

As long as the writers remember that this is a film for Superman, things should be all right. They did a fairly decent job balancing out the points of view of the other characters in MOS (I know some people will disagree, but whatever), so I'm sure we'll see development, and give Batman and the bad guys enough time for fans to relate to them.

Unless you are one of those people that needs every little detail spelled out for you, the MOS2 film should be a fun watch.

It's also a smart decision to insert Batman in this film. If they double up their superheroes in the films, then the chances of a JL film in the next five years becomes a bigger reality.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ I'd like Batman to be paranoid and suspicious, misjudging Superman. I'd also like for him to NOT be suspicious of Lex, while Clark is. It be a nice change of pace.

 

[The Question]

All the studio knows is that for the first time in a few decades, they've got the audience on this brands side. The brand is more viable than Spidey or Bond at this point(imo).

Critics and fans can say what they will and pontificate as to what needs to be done to make a better film(even though their scores would suggest the last film is better...).
The studio knows exactly who's to blame for this success. More please.

Better than Superman Returns doesn't mean good movie.

And if box office draw is the only parameter for film quality the Michael bay's transformers movies are among the greatest movies of all time.

What you're saying is absolutely true. Snyder and Goyer made them an enormous amount of money, and if that's the only thing you care about then of course there's no reason to change up the creative team. But that's not what I care about. Man of Steel may have made bank, and the next film will probably do even better, but 20 years from now people are going to remember The Avengers as the one that mattered, because they took more care and put more talent into it.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Yep Yep; and he and Timm are the ones that have always preferred Batman over Superman and if they got their hands on the creative process of this, then we should practically say goodbye to the badass superman that was established in MOS.

Don't be ridiculous... Timm and Dini have always given Superman equal respect to Batman.

Superman: TAS was amazing and some of Superman's moments in Justice League are downright stunning. Just because they (rightfully) depowered him doesn't mean they don't care for him.

Batman is the badass... he always gets the good/dry/witty lines. It's like that with any ensemble.

 

[TheBourneSuper]

not sure if this is allowed but here is the audio of the announcement...if not allowed, mods take it down the link..

http://movies.cosmicbooknews.com/content/zack-snyder-announces-man-steel-2-comic-con

one other thing...the pessimism from certain posters on this board, superman fans as well, who are not excited about this film......i have no idea what to say to you so will say nothing apart from i'm loving this, i'm sure a whole lot more are loving this and cannot wait for this.

 

[Marvin]

Better than Superman Returns doesn't mean good movie.

And if box office draw is the only parameter for film quality the Michael bay's transformers movies are among the greatest movies of all time.

What you're saying is absolutely true. Snyder and Goyer made them an enormous amount of money, and if that's the only thing you care about then of course there's no reason to change up the creative team. But that's not what I care about. Man of Steel may have made bank, and the next film will probably do even better, but 20 years from now people are going to remember The Avengers as the one that mattered, because they took more care and put more talent into it.

No, better than Superman Returns means the critics are wrong though doesn't it.

Avengers is even more silly, inane and lacking of substance and development than MOS on it's worst day, it even has a greater disregard for lives lost and mad tonal inconsistencies. However the big event film mattering more than the superman origin might be legit if not for the simple fact that is was more of a mindless good time.

As for the Transformers and how much money they make(consistently and increasingly). It knows what it's audience wants and it delivers, ask any 12 year old boy and they will explain it to you in kind.

My point was that for once Superman found a massive audience and is "trending" after several failed attempts. Curious what that means to anyone with an objective mind.

 

[Herolee10]

Don't be ridiculous... Timm and Dini have always given Superman equal respect to Batman.

Superman: TAS was amazing and some of Superman's moments in Justice League are downright stunning. Just because they (rightfully) depowered him doesn't mean they don't care for him.

Batman is the badass... he always gets the good/dry/witty lines. It's like that with any ensemble.

How many times has Batman saved the day when Superman was there just by his wit and Inner Will while Superman has been portrayed as the one who just knows how to punch?

Batman is shown as the one that can't be corrupted in the long run, but Superman can be.

Superman basically lost Lois to Bruce who was portrayed as the love of her life in the DCU and would have ended up with him if she were okay with his Batman persona.

 

[Marvin]

Don't be ridiculous... Timm and Dini have always given Superman equal respect to Batman.

Superman: TAS was amazing and some of Superman's moments in Justice League are downright stunning. Just because they (rightfully) depowered him doesn't mean they don't care for him.

Batman is the badass... he always gets the good/dry/witty lines. It's like that with any ensemble.

Those two turned superman into a sort of non character, especially in JLU.
Dude just show up to lose his temper or lecture or something. Maybe was his dots for eyes...

 

[The Question]

Avengers is even more silly, inane and lacking of substance and development than MOS on it's worst day, it even has a greater disregard for lives lost and mad tonal inconsistencies.

I've never read something that was so much the opposite of the truth. Every single thing I bolded is completely untrue. The Avengers completely dwarfed Man of Steel in terms of substance and character development, nearly every single scene was fueled with emotional meat and development for the characters involved. The notion that it had less of a regard for lives lost is demonstratively untrue, as throughout the climax of The Avengers there were multiple points where we saw the heroes stop to save people's lives, as opposed to Man of Steel where we didn't see that at all during the climax.

And the tonal inconsistency you're referring to is called having some actual sense of fun in an action/drama as opposed to having none at all.

However the big event film mattering more than the superman origin might be legit if not for the simple fact that is was more of a mindless good time.

The Avengers had much more thought put into it than Man of Steel.

As for the Transformers and how much money they make(consistently and increasingly). It knows what it's audience wants and it delivers, ask any 12 year old boy and they will explain it to you in kind.

They're still dumb terrible poorly made movies that are made by people approaching the project with nothing but cynicism. It gives the audience what they want, but what the audience wants is stupid and it's given to them by people who hate them. Box office draw is not an indicator of quality at all.

 

[Sabaoth]

It's not World's Finest though. It's the Superman sequel with Batman in it.

No, it's World's Finest, it is not the Superman sequel with Batman in it.

I see many have drunk the Kool Aid. WB must be happy.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Those two turned superman into a sort of non character, especially in JLU.
Dude just show up to lose his temper or lecture or something. Maybe was his dots for eyes...

Well technically Dini had very little to do with JL/JLU, except writing a handful of episodes.

 

[Marvin]

Well technically Dini had very little to do with JL/JLU, except writing a handful of episodes.

Fair enough.