All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 93

[tomoe]

Um how exactly did superman outsmart lex in STM?
How exactly did he out smart lex in Superman returns?
Here's your answer, he didn't he was saved.

As for Red Son, that was a world class mental ass kicking. Even batman would have been like

Goyer wrote Begins, lots of smart stuff in that movie, tech and law jargon and stuff. Can't be all rocks for brains.

I'll admit he was pretty dumb in STM and Superman Returns, but he did defeat him in the end. And he did outsmart Lex in Superman 2. When has he ever come out looking good or 'winning' when he was with Batman? Frankly I would like him to be a lot smarter than he has been portrayed so far.

Begins was my least favorite of the DKT, but jargon does not equal intelligence to me. I don't recall Batman doing anything particularly ingenious in Begins either. Ha, rocks for brains... well no, but not smart either.

 

[The Shape]

In order for Superman to defeat Batman, he'll have to exploit Bruce's ultimate weakness, which is being human. And in order for Batman to defeat Superman, he'll have to exploit Clark's ultimate weakness, which is Kryptonite. That's it, plain and simple. Nothing wrong or unfair about that.

The way I can see it going down, when they first clash, Superman puts a smackdown on Batman maybe, laying down the law and putting him in his place...without taking things to far or hurting him too badly. Bruce might retreat, and through more investigation of Superman's origins. At the their next meeting, Batman is wearing a Kryptonite ring he crafted himself. This time, he lays the smackdown on Supes...not to put him down or "defeat" him, but to show him that he has the ability to keep Superman in check if he needs to, and stressing that they do not need to enemies since they both have bigger fish to fry (Lex or whatever evil plot is at the center of the film).

 

[Marvin]

I'll admit he was pretty dumb in STM and Superman Returns, but he did defeat him in the end. And he did outsmart Lex in Superman 2. When has he ever come out looking good or 'winning' when he was with Batman? Frankly I would like him to be a lot smarter than he has been portrayed so far.

The point Lex can out maneuver superman and no one complains, for some reason they do when it's batman though. Just comes off as fanboy favoritism.

Superman 2 wasn't about Lex' planing.
As for when has lex out and out won, like I said, Red Son, but then again Luthor was a good gun in that one. Maybe that's why bats wins.

Bats also wins because superman is always seemingly holding back from killing, this might be put to the test post MOS.

Begins was my least favorite of the DKT, but jargon does not equal intelligence to me. I don't recall Batman doing anything particularly ingenious in Begins either. Ha, rocks for brains... well no, but not smart either.

Nolan wasn't about the batgod, Snyder seems to be if he's going to wave around DKR infront of a room full of people. That's what I personally blame for a not to smart batman. as for the jargon, I just think it proves the man isn't an idiot. That' stuff isn't as easy as you would think.

 

[Loki882]

Bruce in BB was smart enough to seek out capable people who could help him (Gordon and Fox and Rachel). He figured out about the two sets of drugs, where they were being shipped to, and what they were going to be used for. He also figured out a way to defeat Ra's. Plus the movie was called Batman BEGINS, he's going to make mistakes.

 

[Deserana]

In order for Superman to defeat Batman, he'll have to exploit Bruce's ultimate weakness, which is being human. And in order for Batman to defeat Superman, he'll have to exploit Clark's ultimate weakness, which is Kryptonite. That's it, plain and simple. Nothing wrong or unfair about that.

The way I can see it going down, when they first clash, Superman puts a smackdown on Batman maybe, laying down the law and putting him in his place...without taking things to far or hurting him too badly. Bruce might retreat, and through more investigation of Superman's origins. At the their next meeting, Batman is wearing a Kryptonite ring he crafted himself. This time, he lays the smackdown on Supes...not to put him down or "defeat" him, but to show him that he has the ability to keep Superman in check if he needs to, and stressing that they do not need to enemies since they both have bigger fish to fry (Lex or whatever evil plot is at the center of the film).

That works for me. I do like the idea of two fights but the only reason for Batman winning is to show Clark he can restrain him if need be.

The ONLY problem I have is introducing Kryptonite. I just can't see a way they can do it seeing as Krypton is gone in every form other than the codex. Unless Lex or whoever travels to the destroyed World Engine (or whatever that thing that landed on the otherside of the world is called) and finds traces of it there. But I can not see a way they bring it in without it feeling shoehorned in.

 

[tomoe]

In order for Superman to defeat Batman, he'll have to exploit Bruce's ultimate weakness, which is being human. And in order for Batman to defeat Superman, he'll have to exploit Clark's ultimate weakness, which is Kryptonite. That's it, plain and simple. Nothing wrong or unfair about that.

The way I can see it going down, when they first clash, Superman puts a smackdown on Batman maybe, laying down the law and putting him in his place...without taking things to far or hurting him too badly. Bruce might retreat, and through more investigation of Superman's origins. At the their next meeting, Batman is wearing a Kryptonite ring he crafted himself. This time, he lays the smackdown on Supes...not to put him down or "defeat" him, but to show him that he has the ability to keep Superman in check if he needs to, and stressing that they do not need to enemies since they both have bigger fish to fry (Lex or whatever evil plot is at the center of the film).

That scenario still gives Batman the upper hand in the end and makes Superman look like a knucklehead who has to be subdued in order to see the bigger picture. Also, once Superman knows about the kryptonite that Batman is carrying around, he should be able to neutralize him from afar if he really wanted to in the future.

 

[Loki882]

All the DKR quote proves is that there will be a confrontation, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Brother Jack]

That works for me. I do like the idea of two fights but the only reason for Batman winning is to show Clark he can restrain him if need be.

The ONLY problem I have is introducing Kryptonite. I just can't see a way they can do it seeing as Krypton is gone in every form other than the codex. Unless Lex or whoever travels to the destroyed World Engine (or whatever that thing that landed on the otherside of the world is called) and finds traces of it there. But I can not see a way they bring it in without it feeling shoehorned in.

He'll use witchcraft.

 

[Loki882]

He's best friends with Zatanna, so maybe he will.

 

[Nathan]

In order for Superman to defeat Batman, he'll have to exploit Bruce's ultimate weakness, which is being human. And in order for Batman to defeat Superman, he'll have to exploit Clark's ultimate weakness, which is Kryptonite. That's it, plain and simple. Nothing wrong or unfair about that.

The way I can see it going down, when they first clash, Superman puts a smackdown on Batman maybe, laying down the law and putting him in his place...without taking things to far or hurting him too badly. Bruce might retreat, and through more investigation of Superman's origins. At the their next meeting, Batman is wearing a Kryptonite ring he crafted himself. This time, he lays the smackdown on Supes...not to put him down or "defeat" him, but to show him that he has the ability to keep Superman in check if he needs to, and stressing that they do not need to enemies since they both have bigger fish to fry (Lex or whatever evil plot is at the center of the film).

I just can't possibly imagine how Batman would come up with Kryptonite. First off, he'd have to know that Krypton's atmosphere has a negative effect on Superman. Knowledge that only Lois has and I doubt she'd make it public. And even if he knew, how is he going to craft the composition of Krypton's atmosphere, into a green rock, that gives off radiation, that weakens Superman? The most I can see him do is built Krypton Gas Grenades. Which won't even have much of an effect, if Superman doesn't breath in too much of it. He managed to fight the World Engine after all.

Or he has to build a room that can recreate Krypton's atmosphere, but has to lure Superman into it. That's the only thing I can see him realistically do. But not an accessory that suddenly robs Superman of all his powers. Leave that nonsense in the comics.

 

[The Shape]

That scenario still gives Batman the upper hand in the end and makes Superman look like a knucklehead who has to be subdued in order to see the bigger picture. Also, once Superman knows about the kryptonite that Batman is carrying around, he should be able to neutralize him from afar if he really wanted to in the future.

But the point is...he shouldn't want to neutralize Batman ever.

The point of this movie is that while Bats and Supes are untrusting of one another at first (rightfully so), they BOTH need to put their differences aside and realize that they CAN and SHOULD trust one another, partly by putting personal pride aside. Even if Superman is subdued and forced to see the bigger picture by Batman, wouldn't standing down and admitting that Batman is right make Superman the "bigger" man in a way?

Either way, my scenario was just one possible way things could do, although I do see it sticking to a similar outline -- Two Batman/Superman clashes/"fights" during the film while an evil threat looms over head, leading up to a team-up for the final act.

 

[Loki882]

Batman will not approve of killing Zod, whether it was justified at the time or not. There's one possible source of contention for them (there will be others).

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Batman will not approve of killing Zod, whether it was justified at the time or not. There's one possible source of contention for them (there will be others).

Now if Zod were in a truck with a nuclear bomb, then he'd be all "I see where you're coming from man."

 

[PacificBoy]

[YT]6RWMc-EdDRY[/YT]

Halfway through watching this. It's a new vid where Max Landis' pitches a Death of Superman story. It's pretty great. Kind of rich that he dissed MOS for the Metropolis destruction and 9/11 imagery, and in this vid he envisions it 10X worse. It's actually kind of made me think that y'know maybe that destruction and forced hand to kill could actually add to where the sequel could go with civilization hating him. Then I remember that the next sequel is a Batman movie...

But definitely recommend that vid.

Everyone should watch this. Already watched twice. All 40 minutes. It's that entertaining. (Goyer should definitely watch this.)

 

[Loki882]

Batman didn't intentionally kill Talia. He was trying to stop the truck and she died in a crash. Superman knew he was killing Zod by breaking his neck (he did the right thing btw), so the situations are different.

 

[Nathan]

"You shouldn't kill, even if they are your enemies. It's what separates us from them. But you don't have to save them either. Just saying."

 

[The Shape]

I just can't possibly imagine how Batman would come up with Kryptonite. First off, he'd have to know that Krypton's atmosphere has a negative effect on Superman. Knowledge that only Lois has and I doubt she'd make it public. And even if he knew, how is he going to craft the composition of Krypton's atmosphere, into a green rock, that gives off radiation, that weakens Superman? The most I can see him do is built Krypton Gas Grenades. Which won't even have much of an effect, if Superman doesn't breath in too much of it. He managed to fight the World Engine after all.

Or he has to build a room that can recreate Krypton's atmosphere, but has to lure Superman into it. That's the only thing I can see him realistically do. But not an accessory that suddenly robs Superman of all his powers. Leave that nonsense in the comics.

World's. Greatest. Detective. Simple as that. Batman's genius-level intellect and detective skills are the answer to Superman's physical power. That's why the dynamic between these two is so interesting. Their strengths and weaknesses balance each other, somewhat.

Batman will be able to discover things about Superman's identity/origin/source of power/weakness that other people cannot, just like Superman can look right through Batman's mask to see that he is really Bruce Wayne. This is going to be AWESOME.

And as far leaving that Kryptonite nonsense in the comics, no thanks. If they're going to do that, then they might as well also make Bruce Wayne an alien with super-human strength. If you're to scared to watch Superman's ultimate (and necessary) weakness exploited, then I guess it's only fair to also no have Bruce's weakness exploited -- his humanity.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Batman didn't intentionally kill Talia. He was trying to stop the truck and she died in a crash. Superman knew he was killing Zod by breaking his neck (he did the right thing btw), so the situations are different.

I was mostly joking, but... I don't think one fires high tech military grade armaments at a truck with the intent to wound, or stop. He was trying to save a city at that point from a nuclear threat. I don't think it's beyond the scope of reasonableness to assume he did not care if opening fire killed the trucks occupants or not.

 

[tomoe]

But the point is...he shouldn't want to neutralize Batman ever.

The point of this movie is that while Bats and Supes are untrusting of one another at first (rightfully so), they BOTH need to put their differences aside and realize that they CAN and SHOULD trust one another, partly by putting personal pride aside. Even if Superman is subdued and forced to see the bigger picture by Batman, wouldn't standing down and admitting that Batman is right make Superman the "bigger" man in a way?

Either way, my scenario was just one possible way things could do, although I do see it sticking to a similar outline -- Two Batman/Superman clashes/"fights" during the film while an evil threat looms over head, leading up to a team-up for the final act.

I agree Superman shouldn't ever want to neutralize Batman. As for your scenario, ok, then I would prefer it the other way around where Batman subdues Superman with kryptonite first because he thinks Superman is a threat because of all that destruction he didn't cause, and then Superman later blasts his kryptonite away from afar after which he kicks Batman's @$$ while telling him they needn't be enemies because Lex is the real threat and he knows this because he has Xray vision and superspeed and superhearing and telescopic vision and has spied on Lex because he was suspicious. Batman doesn't believe him so tediously climbs Lex's tower at night and sneaks past all of Lex's defenses while fighting a bunch of badguys to learn the truth that Superman was right all along.

 

[Loki882]

Batman wants to neutralize Superman. Superman just wants to know what the hell is going on and why this weirdo in a Holloween costume is in Metropolis.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Yeah. But he should be a complication, not a driving villain. See Harry Osbourne in Spidey 2.

 

[Loki882]

I agree, Lex should be the actual villain (maybe Metallo or Parasite as the physical threat).

 

[sf2]

Yeah, he defeated a group of highly-trained and battle hardened Kryptonian soldiers with super powers and state of the art technology led by the former SC of the Kryptonian military (who's neck he snapped like a twig), but he'll be humiliated by Batman. It's not going to happen because Snyder won't let it happen.

Never say never.
Expecting SR kinda humiliation.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

This time, the "bait and switch" villain of the physical monster and Lex seems appropriate. The Tate twist felt like a twist for the sake of it and to bring it thematically back to BB, while the IronMan3 twist felt like a social commentary at the expense of character, and made the villain into a joke.

This time around, Lex being the master manipulator 'feels right' especially if the narrative is a hero-driven one, with occasional instances of something going awry.

 

[Loki882]

Superman being a mopey emo creepy stalker *****e dead beat dad who tries to steal Lois from her loving supportive boyfriend, god that movie actually made me root for Lex Luthor.