All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 94

[TheFlamingCoco]

During the film, what is the name of the song that plays when Clark is floating in the water after saving the oil rig workers? Thanks

Seasons by Chris Cornell.

 

[Zorex]

I completely disagree with that, superman was shown to be the prime hero in that story and same goes for "knight time" and "the demon reborn" episodes and what was quite a surprise to me considering that Timm is a much bigger batman fan than superman (although he does love superman).

I'm going to disagree with you. I just re-watched the animated "World's Finest" episodes the other week (specifically because of the new movie announcement), and was surprised to realize how many times Batman is portrayed as being more of the capable hero than Superman. Superman, I noticed, is oftentimes in the episodes/movie shown to be somewhat brutish and unthinking, barging into situations and then needing Batman's help to get out of them. I counted a few times when Superman is only given moments to shine when there's something too big for Batman to punch and defeat.

 

[Marvin]

I'm going to disagree with you. I just re-watched the animated "World's Finest" episodes the other week (specifically because of the new movie announcement), and was surprised to realize how many times Batman is portrayed as being more of the capable hero than Superman. Superman, I noticed, is oftentimes in the episodes/movie shown to be somewhat brutish and unthinking, barging into situations and then needing Batman's help to get out of them. I counted a few times when Superman is only given moments to shine when there's something too big for Batman to punch and defeat.

two reasons for this imo.
1. Timm's superman for all it's celebration isn't all that great(unless he's dealing with Mxy). Especially in JLU.
2. Anyone facing the Joker for the first time will look really dumb next to batman, that was almost the point. I think if WF can avoid joker(and they will), this should NOT be as big a problem.

 

[bluearth]

Superman saved people in this movie?


lol can't help you.

I have encountered people who said Superman didnt save people in Man of Steel

Seasons by Chris Cornell.

Thanks but Im pretty sure this track is instrumental. After hearing it in the theater I went to itunes and downloaded a few songs on the album that sounded somewhat similar but nothing matches up.

Theres a video on yotuube called man of steel oil rig scene. At the :51 mark you can hear the song start

 

[Zorex]

two reasons for this imo.
1. Timm's superman for all it's celebration isn't all that great(unless he's dealing with Mxy). Especially in JLU.

I've heard people say that a few times over the years. I've watched a few episodes recently but for the most part I haven't watched the bulk of the series since it aired while I was a kid. I've heard it argued often that the series de-powered him too much. Do you think this is one of the main problems with the series?

2. Anyone facing the Joker for the first time will look really dumb next to batman, that was almost the point. I think if WF can avoid joker(and they will), this should be as big a problem.

Good point. They'd be insane to go near the Joker again. Bale's Batman is well-liked, but Ledger's Joker... that's a completely different level of veneration.

Hopefully... hopefully... this next installment is indeed a Superman movie that features Batman, with Batman inhabiting Superman's world and not the other way around. Let him be a supporting character, and give us as much Superman as possible.

 

[Marvin]

I think having batman show up will serve to inform superman on the type of hero he wants to develop into in his own right. I also think it's going to provide for a great contrast to further illustrate to the audience just how on point the MOS characterization is. Next to batman superman has a way of looking "super".

As for the issues I personally have with timms characterization. I don't mind the depowering, though I think it lead to a few issues of inconsistency down the road when other heroes showed up, still better than then having to depower fully into the series. For me I can see alot of similarities with MOS. The character isn't given all that much to say outside of what's put in front of him. In the comics and even in the donnerverse(this doesn't include Returns), Superman is a vocal idealist. He never misses a beat to let us and everyone know what he thinks is right inspite of the situation in front of him. Timm mostly gave me a smalled eye mute with enough personality to be out shined everytime another hero rolled into town. That was over 15 years of TV. I hope they give Cavil more vocal idealism in the next film. Considering both batman and lex may show up I see this as a great opportunity.

Vocal Idealism being very much a part of characters like Ang in Avatar and Naruto if you are familiar with them. You know they have a strong opinion on various things.

 

[Binker]

I'm going to disagree with you. I just re-watched the animated "World's Finest" episodes the other week (specifically because of the new movie announcement), and was surprised to realize how many times Batman is portrayed as being more of the capable hero than Superman. Superman, I noticed, is oftentimes in the episodes/movie shown to be somewhat brutish and unthinking, barging into situations and then needing Batman's help to get out of them. I counted a few times when Superman is only given moments to shine when there's something too big for Batman to punch and defeat.

There are reasons for that, as many have explained, plus some more too. Like others have pointed out; Superman at that time didn't know any of Batman's villains, and never thought how crazy or powerful in their own right they would be when he confronted them. When Joker threw marbles at them, no one would think they were grenades, not even in the real world I might add. But as Batman said, "expect the unexpected" when it came to the Joker. In Knight Time: the villains were easier because it was Mad Matter and Riddler (also Roxy from the opening), even Bane was easy for Superman because he was pretending to be Batman and playing weak. In Demon Reborn, Superman was weak because of the staff used by Talia, and since we would assume the staff is magic, Superman has an excuse.

However, one thing I wanted to point about WF is that, if Batman is appearing like the main hero in those episodes, its mainly because those stories are more like Batman stories somewhat. Think about it: its starts in Gotham, Joker & Harley, Gotham PD with Bullock and Gordon, Batman of course, and his findings start the story. Sure, its Superman story too, but if you look at it like that, it starts with Batman. Same goes with Demon Reborn, but again because Superman has an in-story excuse, it would have to be Batman's story, and if he wasn't there, someone else's.

This goes back to the sequel: all the talk I've heard is of Superman, which makes sense given that they might be secretive or they don't know to the extent of how Batman will be portrayed. Because of this, this sounds like (and I hope it is) a Superman sequel co-starring Batman, rather than a shared film. Speaking of which, if they were to share the film, let it be both their stories. How to do this? Well there is a Superman/Batman novel called Enemies and Allies, and in it, the situation/conflict is looked up by both Superman and Batman, but separately. They only come together when their cases intersect, as well it's the right time for them to team up. That's an example, but a good one. But so far, it seems to be more of a Superman sequel co-starring Batman.

 

[InJustice]

I thought that Public Enemies was the fairer one of the two. Sure, they made Batman someone who could take down Bane and Grundy and who knows what at the top of a hat, but he spent much of the movie hiding or having to be rescued by Supes. That's how I think it should be done, imho.

Minus Batman taking superpowered people head on without a "game changing" gadget

I agree, Public Enemies was fairer in the sense that if one of the characters was in a rut, the other would help out. And they both had their own time to shine (which makes scenes like Metallo vs. Superman and the Superheroes vs. Superman and Batman that much more rewarding IMO). I don't hold the Bruce Timm's cartoon film to that level since it shows Batman off a lot more than Superman.

 

[JOE]

No worries, the sequel is going to show off Batman more than Superman. There's no popularity contest there.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

There are reasons for that, as many have explained, plus some more too. Like others have pointed out; Superman at that time didn't know any of Batman's villains, and never thought how crazy or powerful in their own right they would be when he confronted them. When Joker threw marbles at them, no one would think they were grenades, not even in the real world I might add. But as Batman said, "expect the unexpected" when it came to the Joker. In Knight Time: the villains were easier because it was Mad Matter and Riddler (also Roxy from the opening), even Bane was easy for Superman because he was pretending to be Batman and playing weak. In Demon Reborn, Superman was weak because of the staff used by Talia, and since we would assume the staff is magic, Superman has an excuse.

However, one thing I wanted to point about WF is that, if Batman is appearing like the main hero in those episodes, its mainly because those stories are more like Batman stories somewhat. Think about it: its starts in Gotham, Joker & Harley, Gotham PD with Bullock and Gordon, Batman of course, and his findings start the story. Sure, its Superman story too, but if you look at it like that, it starts with Batman. Same goes with Demon Reborn, but again because Superman has an in-story excuse, it would have to be Batman's story, and if he wasn't there, someone else's.

This goes back to the sequel: all the talk I've heard is of Superman, which makes sense given that they might be secretive or they don't know to the extent of how Batman will be portrayed. Because of this, this sounds like (and I hope it is) a Superman sequel co-starring Batman, rather than a shared film. Speaking of which, if they were to share the film, let it be both their stories. How to do this? Well there is a Superman/Batman novel called Enemies and Allies, and in it, the situation/conflict is looked up by both Superman and Batman, but separately. They only come together when their cases intersect, as well it's the right time for them to team up. That's an example, but a good one. But so far, it seems to be more of a Superman sequel co-starring Batman.

Yep, it has to be a TRUE sequel emphasizing Clark, or it's a missed opportunity.

 

[Zorex]

But so far, it seems to be more of a Superman sequel co-starring Batman.

My fear, my pessimism, is largely due to WB's track record with superhero movies. There's not a ton there to inspire utmost confidence. I would have been giddy as hell if this film were the second sequel to "Man Of Steel," but to have it now feels reactionary on WB's part to "Man Of Steel" not having shattered the box office as they'd hoped, and in being in desperate need of competing with Marvel. This kind of agenda makes me concerned that they'll shortchange Superman by counting on 'More Batman = More $$$.' I do hope it's a direct sequel to "Man Of Steel" that happens to feature Batman as a supporting character.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

My fear, my pessimism, is largely due to WB's track record with superhero movies. There's not a ton there to inspire utmost confidence. I would have been giddy as hell if this film were the second sequel to "Man Of Steel," but to have it now feels reactionary on WB's part to "Man Of Steel" not having shattered the box office as they'd hoped, and in being in desperate need of competing with Marvel. This kind of agenda makes me concerned that they'll shortchange Superman by counting on 'More Batman = More $$$.' I do hope it's a direct sequel to "Man Of Steel" that happens to feature Batman as a supporting character.

That's my fear, too. A part of me would hope they never show Batman in his entirety in the trailers, and just the back of his mask or something.

 

[Marvin]

I personally feel that even in the worst case scenario and WF somehow short changes Superman in an even greater way then Avengers short changed all it's characters developments after their solo films(including hulk).

Then like The Winter Soldier sequel, another solo story is waiting around the corner and will a huge hype boost.

but that's worst case.

 

[The Question]

I personally feel that even in the worst case scenario and WF somehow short changes Superman in an even greater way then Avengers short changed all it's characters developments after their solo films(including hulk)

Why do you do that? That doesn't really have anything to do with what you're talking about. You could have made that point without making a pot-shot that you know a lot of people are going to disagree with. In fact, you'd have made your point better by not using an example that a lot of people are going to disagree with.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I personally feel that even in the worst case scenario and WF somehow short changes Superman in an even greater way then Avengers short changed all it's characters developments after their solo films(including hulk).

Then like The Winter Soldier sequel, another solo story is waiting around the corner and will a huge hype boost.

but that's worst case.

You mean DURING their solo films. Because afterward, they're still gonna get sequels. We don't know if Superman's so lucky.

 

[Marvin]

Why do you do that? That doesn't really have anything to do with what you're talking about. You could have made that point without making a pot-shot that you know a lot of people are going to disagree with. In fact, you'd have made your point better by not using an example that a lot of people are going to disagree with.

I came out of cap(TFA) having recently read all of the recent books on the character, particularly Brubaker and Millar. Safe to say I wasn't a fan of what Evans did with the role but was told when he get's to "modern times" that more soldiery cap and less icon in spandex might come out. Any chance of that sort of development went out the window when the film(unlike some of the animated features such as ultimates) decided to focus on other members. In fact, imagine my surprise when I caught wind of the 2 or 3 deleted Steve Rogers scenes in that very movie. Scenes that in my opinion would have offered his story an added bit of development.

"Short Changed"

Funny enough, it seems we might be getting an aged Peggy Carter story line and a few other elements such as a harsher more cynical government and this winter solider plot line that might just steer Cap into the sort of development needed for me to get on board with the character again. He might even learn how to fight in more modern cadence having had some time to acclimate...
Long story short, it seemingly takes another cap solo to do all the things the marvel event couldn't for the character.
Then there is the Thor issue, but that's for another day.

Sorry if you saw that as a pot shot, I saw it as an opportunity to compare what people are certain is going to happen to superman once another (singular)hero shows up in this films to what can happen in one of his traditional solos.

as to the question of why I do it.
that's like asking why hurricanes happen, I'm a force of nature around these parts.t:

I try not to send Pot Shots towards Whedon's work, he's kinda my favorite dude. When that film was a hit I was fully vindicated for all the many months of people calling him and his firefly ilk made for tv and that alone.

 

[Marvin]

You mean DURING their solo films. Because afterward, they're still gonna get sequels. We don't know if Superman's so lucky.

I guess a MOS sequel is up in the air at this point. Seems unlikely WB would skip out on a sequel to a character whose rights they fought so hard to regain though. I suppose it would be a shame if Cavill spent the rest of his superman contract in team ups.

 

[bluearth]

I guess a MOS sequel is up in the air at this point. Seems unlikely WB would skip out on a sequel to a character whose rights they fought so hard to regain though. I suppose it would be a shame if Cavill spent the rest of his superman contract in team ups.

It wouldnt bother me at all if he spent the rest of his time as Superman in teamups. In addition to Man of Steel, possible films could be Worlds Finest, a couple of justice league films, and maybe another teamup with Wonder Woman.

I always liked the Justice League animated series, but thought the 90s Superman animated series was very mediocre. I like the Superman character, but one of the reasons its so difficult to bring him to film is that hes so strong that it limits the number of enemies capable of fighting him without the kryptonite gimmick.

In a solo Superman film really what is there to explore? The romance with Lois? Rivalry with Lex? As for villains Doomsday is just a monster which would certainly gather the attention of the Justice League. Metallo is based on the kryptonite gimmick.

Again I really like the character but if he never got another solo film I'd be fine with it. And I loved Man of Steel. I just see them having alot of trouble writing a Superman story in world where the Justice League exists and theres no villain that can fight him evenly without kryptonite

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I guess a MOS sequel is up in the air at this point. Seems unlikely WB would skip out on a sequel to a character whose rights they fought so hard to regain though. I suppose it would be a shame if Cavill spent the rest of his superman contract in team ups.

Yeah. I just want ONE other stand alone flick.

MOS3 can have multiple DC heroes. WF would be an epic team up. But I want ONE movie in which it's pretty much focused on building and developing the Superman character and the people around him. After that movie happens, I wouldn't mind Superman having ANY solo films.

 

[mace1]

This is a interesting point about movies these days but this focus is on man of steel but this could be for any movie.


People are too cynical these days (Spoilers)
by
GhostGlow

Some of you people have a really twisted perception of what an "awful" movie is, or whatever word you want to insert to describe negativity. Was Man of Steel the perfect Superman film? No. Could it have been better? Definitely. But for what it was... there were still some great moments in there. Unlike movies such as Green Lantern, it wasn't all just mindless CGI action, Man of Steel actually managed to be believable and captured the essence of who Superman is. The scenes with him fighting the other Kryptonians was amazing, never before have we seen fights of such an epic scale in a Superman movie before, it was like bringing a comicbook to life, the duel between Superman and Zod was especially awesome, are you saying that didn't impress you cynics one bit? The acting was also pretty decent, the bond between Clark and his parents was believable and moving, did you feel nothing from that at all? Should this movie win an Oscar for best screenplay or best director? No, but honestly how can you say it was really a bad film? There is definitely room for improvement, but for me Man of Steel managed to be a worthwhile cinema experience.

by
TheDarkPhoenix85

^^ Thank you!

by
Fluffis

That's a new one...

"People aren't allowed to dislike a movie I like."

by GhostGlow

I never said you aren't allowed to, I just think anyone who went to see this and came out thinking it was horrible must have some really high standards, or is not a big enough comic fan to appreciate it. Man of Steel is not above criticism, but there are far worse superhero movies than this.

by
Fluffis

Okay, so you didn't say that people aren't allowed - you just said that there is something wrong with them. there That's much better.

by GhostGlow

If that's how you want to look at it then be my guest. I stand by my statement though, a lot of people in this world really need to lighten up. It's like no matter how good something is they will just focus on it's flaws, and unless something is exactly the way they think it should be it "sucks". Why does it have to be black or white?

by
beansnnnncornbread

I'd like to say that I've seen people bash on this movie, say that if you like it they you are mentally handicapped and expect not to be called trolls. I would say there is something a little wrong with some of them.

by
LemonVampire

I love how not enjoying a grim, desaturated, ultra-violent, "gritty" version of Superman makes me "too cynical." version I'm "too cynical" for thinking that Superman should be about solving problems without resorting to killing, that the ideal he should represent and that the world should embrace, is one of self-sacrifice and compassion for all life.

by
delorb

So its all about the fights. Jeez. What a rousing endorsement of the movie. They should have used that in their promos. That or this gem,rousing

The acting was also pretty decent,

, You can't even work up the energy to defend this movie properly.

by GhostGlow

I didn't say it was perfect, my point is there are people saying "This movie was terrible" like as if it was so bad it actually caused them mental anguish. What I'm saying is... let's lighten up a little, there are far worse movies out there and even though it had it's flaws surely it's not THAT bad. I'll agree that it was a bit too dark for a Superman movie, but you knew what you were getting into when you watched it did you not? As far as resorting to killing: People are making too big of a deal about it, they've missed the point of that scene. He had no other choice, Zod would not have stopped and it showed that Clark felt remorse for having to resort to that, which is part of his character.

by GhostGlow

You're twisting my words, they've become even more twisted than your standards of film. What a twist! No but seriously, it's not all about the fights, that's just one of the films strengths, have you seen Superman Returns? He did not punch 1 single person the whole movie, not even the guy who shot him in the eye, not even Superman is that much of a pacifist. So excuse me for being glad to finally see the kind of action that a Superman film deserves. I'll admit that the film fell short in other areas (Not enough scenes in Smallville, no mention of characters like Lana Lang or Jimmy Olsen, Lois wasn't a brunette, too many lense flares and CGI, unnecessarily dark) but the script was a lot more true to the source material than some comic book films and I don't know about the rest of you but when I go to see an action film (Which is what this movie is) I expect plenty of action.

I'll just make my point one last time because this is a concept many people seem hard to grasp: Man of Steel was not a perfect adaption of the Superman story, but there has been far worse and this movie had enough decent scenes in it for it to qualify as a good movie, I'm not saying it's a masterpiece or that it's the best superhero film in history, but I cannot fathom why people hated it so much. Have a "pretty decent" day!

by GhostGlow

That is exactly my point, thank you! It's like they think there are only 2 types of movies; A work of art, or utter garbage. Man of Steel doesn't fit into either category, there are things I really liked about it and things I didn't, but overall I think it managed to be an entertaining movie. I just don't like the way people are acting as though there was absolutely nothing good about this film whatsoever. I guess people just had such high hopes for this that compared to what they thought it would be it was bad. That's basically how I felt about Michael Bay's Transformers movies, but as bad as they are there is still some fun to be had, that is all I'm trying to say about Man of Steel.

by
LaWanda74

I said MOS has gotten flack it didn't deserve and I don't think it deserved such a low score on RT.

People are too cynical these days (Spoilers)


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0770828/board/flat/217518277?p=1

 

[The Question]

"You only dislike the film because you're too cynical" is pretty dismissive.

 

[John-An]

I was wondering how many kryptonians were in the Black Zero the militar and including jax-ur.. counting the ones who were fighting against jor-el's hologram and lois lane...and which do you think survived in the Phantome Zone?

 

[Superchan]

I'm going to disagree with you. I just re-watched the animated "World's Finest" episodes the other week (specifically because of the new movie announcement), and was surprised to realize how many times Batman is portrayed as being more of the capable hero than Superman. Superman, I noticed, is oftentimes in the episodes/movie shown to be somewhat brutish and unthinking, barging into situations and then needing Batman's help to get out of them. I counted a few times when Superman is only given moments to shine when there's something too big for Batman to punch and defeat.

Really, that's interesting, it's as if we've watched a completely different film I would like to see examples of what made you think that way because I thought batman was shown to be almost useless throughout the 3 episodes and I'd be happy to explain why I think so if you like.

 

[InJustice]

wrong thread, delete

 

[Smallville13]

Was thinking today about how amazing it would have been if they did the All-Star #9 ending with Bar-El and Lilo but with Zod and Faora. Can't remember the exact words but 'after all we've done, you still offer us kindness Kal?' 'The best of Krypton lives on in you'. Just re-tweak the ending with Zod and Faora laying side by side overcome by sensory overload or whatever, and Superman and Emil Hamilton have made a rudimentary Phantom Zone projector and we end on a much happier uplifting note, that speaks much more to Superman.

Ugh. The ending. So bleak. So somber. Makes me so sad. I'm just not sure if Snyder and Goyer get the character. Yeah 'he's had so many iterations in 75 years'. But they really angsted him up. All contact with mankind he has, other than his parents and Lois is cold (the trucker, Clark even saying he's not sure mankind can be trusted). It just doesn't seem right. He loves everyone. I sometimes wish that Superman would just fly through my window and console me about my problems. But I think Cavill's Superman would just hate me. It's like Mark Waid said it's like humanity he likes, but it's people he doesn't. It just seems so wrong.