All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 94

Discussion in 'Man of Steel' started by Thread Manager, Jul 25, 2013.

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  1. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Well-Known Member

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    ^ I think you missed the point of Clark's journey in this film if that's how you saw the character.
     
    #51
  2. Tempest

    Tempest ....What?

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    Meh. Cheesy. And I have a hard time trying to sympathize with people bent on genocide. Sorry. I hated that part of All Star Superman.

    I loved the ending. I loved that Superman won, but at a great personal cost. I loved that he was faced with the prospect of being alone, but then is embraced and held, comforted by Lois. I love that he has found his purpose, that he knows now what he can do, and that he's chosen a career where he can make a difference not just as Superman, but also as a man. The future is one of hope, of new plans, of new beginnings. I LOVE this ending.

    As for whether Cavill's Superman hates humans, pfffffffffffffffft. What nonsense. There is no way that Superman would fight so hard to save those kids on the bus, or the guys on the oil rig, or to betray his own race if he hated people.

    Now, Cavill's Superman might not hug you, and he might tell you to buck up, but he would probably tell you that things get better.

    But mostly, I've really been catching up on the older comics, the ones I've missed out over the past ten years, and I have to tell you, I am not seeing the Superman you see.

    The ONLY Superman who has met up with your expectations is the All Star Superman. Every other iteration of Superman I've seen so far (and I admit, I haven't gotten through all of them), he's been angry, he's done dumb things, he's gotten into arguments, he's been a jerk sometimes. He's beaten people up, nearly lost control of himself, and he's even killed a handful of times.

    But, he's also been willing to sacrifice everything for his friends, he saves everyone when he can. He forms bonds with the people he's around, just because he's that good of a guy, even with all his mistakes.

    The MOS Superman is no different -- he just had a different path. Cavill's Superman gives us hope not because he did everything perfectly, but because despite the pain, despite the tremendous loss, he is willing to forge ahead, with the idea of creating a better world than the one we live in now.

    I'm so sorry you don't like MOS. Maybe you should read the novel. You seem to need more details and so forth, and the novel has them. It might make you feel better.
     
    #52
  3. Smallville13

    Smallville13 Well-Known Member

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    That's a good counterargument Tempest.

    I think the best writers of Superman are Grant Morrison, Mark Waid, Elliot S Maggin, Alan Moore, Joe Casey, Paul Dini, and maybe Jeph Loeb (For All Seasons) and even John Byrne. I also think they have produced the most celebrated and influential works on the character.

    I also loved Man of Steel for the most part but the last third really felt off for me. I have planned on tracking down the novelization, for more details regarding the plot. Hopefully it turns me around on it like you say.

    I can't help how I feel though. And Superman's character just felt off for me. Like I just didn't see it. Cavill captured his powerful presence, but I just didn't see the warmth (save for when he meets back with his mother, and in the interrogation room with Lois). It's definitely hard not to feel disappointed with MOS, only cause I was expecting so much more.
     
    #53
  4. STARMAN

    STARMAN Rebel With A Cause

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    You sounded much more receptive to MOS after you first saw it. I guess the enthusiasm wore off and the flaws became more apparent in your eyes.
     
    #54
  5. Smallville13

    Smallville13 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I think the extra 2 weeks wait was a blessing in disguise. The rotten rating, and mixed reaction on the Hype, really made me brace for the worst. So I was thankfully relieved and happy there was so much I loved about it. I think after my 3rd viewing I really separated what I loved and didn't.
     
    #55
  6. STARMAN

    STARMAN Rebel With A Cause

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    I think at this point it's best to wait 6 months or so before watching it again. The film's positive and negative attributes will settle in and you may be able to make a final assessment on how you view the film.
     
    #56
  7. Smallville13

    Smallville13 Well-Known Member

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    Is waiting for the Blu-Ray release long enough? ;)
     
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  8. STARMAN

    STARMAN Rebel With A Cause

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    No. You must wait longer. I refuse to allow you to watch the Blu-Ray DVD. :yay:
     
    #58
  9. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Well-Known Member

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    I honestly think that whatever relevance Rotten Tomatoes might've once had has dissipated considerably. When the EDITOR of the site is questioning a movie's critical rating, you know something has broken down.
     
    #59
  10. Smallville13

    Smallville13 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    #60
  11. STARMAN

    STARMAN Rebel With A Cause

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    Good one. Lol.
     
    #61
  12. FlawlessVictory

    FlawlessVictory Well-Known Member

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    World War Z has an average rating of 6.2/10 and is fresh with 67%
    The Wolverine has an average rating of 6.3/10 and is fresh with 67%

    Man of Steel has an average rating of 6.2/10 and is rotten with 56%

    Just to illustrate
     
    #62
  13. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Well-Known Member

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    ^ Thank you for furthering my point. :) RT has lost its relevance as a barometer for the quality of any given movie, which is why I say it's best to just go see a movie you think might be interesting and form your own opinions. It's what I do.
     
    #63
  14. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    Preconceptions spanning popular but not all of the incarnations of the character will do that.

    For example if all you've ever read of the character was Earth one, things might seem different, infact that story also had no Clark DP till the end.
    The problem is, if films are made for people with different preconceptions in mind(and everyone has a different one trust me), then they will never be received properly. All we can do is judge it for what it is.
     
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  15. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    RT audience ratings further illustrate the point.
    Just seems like MOS got the short end of the stick this time out. Wonder why though.
     
    #65
  16. FlawlessVictory

    FlawlessVictory Well-Known Member

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    I think we know why. Superman is supposed to be perfect. Every choice and every action he makes is supposed to be perfect. The expectations for the character and thus the movie can be absolutely ridiculous.

    I caught Pacific Rim for the first time last night. Massive amounts of destruction caused by the robots fighting the monsters. But I understood the situation, these robots are trying to stop these monsters and collateral damage is to be expected.

    However when Superman tries stopping Zod and there is collateral damage as a result, then Superman gets absolutely roasted for it. Sigh.
     
    #66
  17. roach

    roach I am the night

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    I never understood why Superman gets the blame...destruction and death happen in almost every other Superhero movie and none of the blame is put on the hero.
    No one blames The X-men for the deaths caused by Magneto in the films.
    No one blames Batman for everything that happened in Gotham since he came along.
    No one blames Spider-man for everything that happened in his movies (other than JJJ).
    No one blamed any of the Avengers and their side movies for death and destruction.

    So why are we now blaming Superman?
     
    #67
  18. FlawlessVictory

    FlawlessVictory Well-Known Member

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    ^Again, he is supposed to be perfect. Not one person is allowed to die under his watch. These standards exist for Superman only. Every other hero has free reign.
     
    #68
  19. bluearth

    bluearth Well-Known Member

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    Its a Zack Snyder film

    Its a big departure from the very light hearted Donner/Singer films

    It depicts much more accurately Superman's power and that of his enemies

    Im sure you've noticed by now all these criticisms are in many ways unfair because none of them are truly bad in their own right. Zack Snyder is now the punching bag for people who want to hate on CGI and supposed lack of character development now that George Lucas is out of film. This is the first real reboot of Superman on the big screen in 35 years. In that time period Batman got rebooted twice before Nolan's Batman, which eased the transition.

    Also Snyder showed Superman and his power in this film without apology. Im guessing people not use to seeing Superman fight in the comics or in the animated series arent use to buildings being destroyed and him flying through walls. For some, like myself, it was awesome seeing that in live action. For most critics who never read comics or watched the animated series, it was just Zach Snyder going off on CGI again and being over the top.

    Critics can be the biggest hypocrites. They love the realistic and gory violence in Kick Ass, Quentin Tarantino films, etc, but they cant stand Man of Steel. I was watching Kick Ass the other night which had a 12 year old girl brutally and repetitively murder dozens of men , but the Man of Steel fights are too long and too violent? And Kick Ass is 76% at rotten tomatoes?

    In the end most fans and Warner Brothers liked what they saw. They're now entrusting Snyder with the two biggest super heroes in the world, Superman and Batman. The critics can continue to love 'talkies' for all I care. I'll continue to love a good movie as long as its a good movie.
     
    #69
  20. Infinity9999x

    Infinity9999x Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Actually, Superman's collateral is much more understandable. It wasn't like he was just going about willy nilly. It's kind of hard to remove Zod from the playing field if he doesn't want to be removed.

    I think this kind of criticism is more justifiable towards Batman in Batman Begins. Batman, "I won't kill this man who is a murderer! I'll just blow up this entire building instead to escape! Killing dozens of ninjas in the process!" Or his police chase scene, were he employs tactics to evade the police that are so extreme it's laughable when we hear a report saying nobody was killed.
     
    #70
  21. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    I still think if people look at the Zod/Superman fight alone, many would have an entirely different opinion of the Zod/Superman fight alone lol.
    Sad but true.

    It was an odd plotting to have the fight happen after the doomsday device was turned off, not even the Goyer pitched batman films did it that way. On top of the many preconceptions that may have clouded audience reception people just aren't used to digesting such a thing in such a way, so it leads to half these people mixing up scenes in their minds which leads to statements such as, "Superman brought down an entire city just to win a fight...no ****s given" In reality, it's hard to remember superman directly casing damage to a single building under his own power(though there was that double punch into the side of the building).

    In a movie where people talk about fight's going on and on, to have a fight start after the dust had settled probably wasn't the wisest choice.
     
    #71
  22. Loki882

    Loki882 Well-Known Member

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    Considering how many people don't even seem to realize that 99.5% of the damage was caused by Zod's gravity beam, while Superman was on the other side of the planet, I question whether they were even really paying attention at all.
     
    #72
  23. Tempest

    Tempest ....What?

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    On this point, I would disagree. You-think-the-danger-has-passed-hahahahaha-nope-you're-wrong! trope has been around for forever. Did anyone not seriously see the big fight between Superman and Zod coming? They HAD to have the heroic stand-off. It's the classic cliche.

    On that point, I don't know if this has been posted before, so my apologies if you've all seen it, but I popped onto tvtropes.org (despite the nonsense happening on there), and pulled up the tropes for MOS.

    Er, obviously there are spoilers and so forth. Read, and enjoy!

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/ManOfSteel
     
    #73
  24. NewYorkSpider

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    I did that with The Amazing Spider-Man. Didn't care too much for it after watching it when it came out. Got it for Christmas and thought it was much better the second time around.

    I'm hoping to do the same with Man Of Steel.
     
    #74
  25. Smallville13

    Smallville13 Well-Known Member

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    Grant Morrison on Man of steel:


    Word.




    Source - http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...day-conversation-batman-wonder-woman/2586739/
     
    #75
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