All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 94

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:up:

He gets so much flak for it because the destruction came across as so realistic. People just couldn't handle that I suppose in a comic book movie and a Superman movie of all heroes. Superman is supposed to be so kid friendly and this movie wasn't. One can argue there is destruction in The Avengers as well, but to me, it never felt as "heavy" and "real" as it did in MOS.

At least MOS shows that killing is difficult, and should only be done when really justified. I think this is a much better anti-violence message than the non-serious treatment of killing enemies in Superman II.
 
Which begs the question, if I put out a fire that I helped start... would you still call me a hero? Because that's exactly what Superman does in this movie. The world was better off before Superman.

And I see a lot of people suggesting that perhaps Superman could have taken the fight to an abandoned cornfield or something. I mean sure that's one way... but couldn't he have just taken the fight like several thousand feet above the Metropolis skyline?

That is rubbish. Superman does not "help start" the attack of the World Engine. He opposes it at every turn. He had no way to know that his use of the command key would bring anyone to earth. To compare this to "helping to start a fire" is to totally apply blame where none is needed.

Your view that Superman can move the fight anywhere ignores the fact that he is fighting with people who are of equal strength.
 
Haters gonna hate.

I'm surprised at the lack of wank regarding the race of Perry White, to be honest. Was there a lot of flipping out on the forum about that, or were people for the most part cool? I've really only seen one comment about it elsewhere, and it was enough to make me want to throw things at my monitor.

I have to say I was excited about having an African-American Perry White. Of course I also love Lois and Clark where they have a part-Japanese Clark Kent and a part Syrian Lois Lane. So how could I really complain.

In fact, my biggest complaint against L&C is that they never had any African-American character truly in the a cast. They started out with an African-American Bill Henderson, but barely gave him any role, and then half-way through season 1 came in with a white guy now playing Henderson. Then they had James Earl Jones play the owner of the Daily Planet in 1 episode, but we never saw him again. So I was fully ready for one of the established core at the Daily Planet being African-American. OK, there is also the fact that one of my favorite SR fan fics involves Lucy Lane being married to Ron Troupe. I have been the only white rider on enough different Detroit City bus routes to have some sort of desire to create inter-racial harmony cred. Actually, if I have a gripe against MOS it was they did not cast any Latinos in major roles. Considering that the US is more Latino than African-American, does it make sense to have 2 of the top ten human roles in the film filled by African-Americans and 0 filled by Latinos?
 
Because Superman is apparently supposed to be absolutely perfect. He's never been that way in canon, so I don't understand where this ideal standard has come from.

Also if Superman was "absolutely" perfect and never made a mistake, people would gripe about that. We would hear never ending complaints about how he is unrealistic and boring.

At least with this, it is caused by things that Superman knows nothing about. No one ever warned him that the key could call invaders, and even when he got the message from Jor-el, he had no reason to think Zod would come.

On the other hand, in SR all the problems it would seem Superman should know of before hand. He should have put better security on the Fortress, and even though the way Luthor got out of prison was odd, we have to assume this is a different world, where trials do go like that, and so Clark should know he needs to stick around to prevent Luthor leaving prison, and not leave the earth.
 
Also if Superman was "absolutely" perfect and never made a mistake, people would gripe about that. We would hear never ending complaints about how he is unrealistic and boring.

At least with this, it is caused by things that Superman knows nothing about. No one ever warned him that the key could call invaders, and even when he got the message from Jor-el, he had no reason to think Zod would come.

On the other hand, in SR all the problems it would seem Superman should know of before hand. He should have put better security on the Fortress, and even though the way Luthor got out of prison was odd, we have to assume this is a different world, where trials do go like that, and so Clark should know he needs to stick around to prevent Luthor leaving prison, and not leave the earth.


Brother/Sister you will go mad trying to figure out the whys behind the decisions to have the characters in SR act the way they did. None of it makes a lick of sense. Why would Superman leave Earth? He doesn't need human scientists to tell him a damned thing about the state of Krypton. Between his senses and his access to the Fortress' tech,which I believe is described as "100,000's of years" far in advanced compared to our tech. So the initial premise is WAAAAAAY off. Then we add on the deadbeat dad stuff. Again, Superman would know Lois was pregnant the moment sperm met egg. If it's from a tryst when he was non powered then he would know after his powers returned. He would not allow himself to be in the dark about him potentially fathering a child with Lois. And knowing that he would not leave the planet.

If they wanted a real Superman Returns story they should have worked out something along the lines of Luthor having some scheme that actually gets rid of Superman in some way for a number of years. Wormhole, time travel, cryonics... Something. The screenplay and plot tell me all I need to know about the creative minds in charge of SR. That and they thought that the audience sees Kate Bosworth as something other than a way too thin and talentless actress. Huge mistake on that.
 
Brother/Sister you will go mad trying to figure out the whys behind the decisions to have the characters in SR act the way they did. None of it makes a lick of sense. Why would Superman leave Earth? He doesn't need human scientists to tell him a damned thing about the state of Krypton. Between his senses and his access to the Fortress' tech,which I believe is described as "100,000's of years" far in advanced compared to our tech. So the initial premise is WAAAAAAY off. Then we add on the deadbeat dad stuff. Again, Superman would know Lois was pregnant the moment sperm met egg. If it's from a tryst when he was non powered then he would know after his powers returned. He would not allow himself to be in the dark about him potentially fathering a child with Lois. And knowing that he would not leave the planet.

If they wanted a real Superman Returns story they should have worked out something along the lines of Luthor having some scheme that actually gets rid of Superman in some way for a number of years. Wormhole, time travel, cryonics... Something. The screenplay and plot tell me all I need to know about the creative minds in charge of SR. That and they thought that the audience sees Kate Bosworth as something other than a way too thin and talentless actress. Huge mistake on that.

Their biggest mistake is they cast a 22-year-old in a role that requires someone who is at least 30, when in general 22-year-olds are cast as 17-year-olds.

Plus, my understanding of STM was that the amount Clark aged in transit to earth was a lot less than the amount of time it actually took him to get to earth.
 
:up:

He gets so much flak for it because the destruction came across as so realistic. People just couldn't handle that I suppose in a comic book movie and a Superman movie of all heroes. Superman is supposed to be so kid friendly and this movie wasn't. One can argue there is destruction in The Avengers as well, but to me, it never felt as "heavy" and "real" as it did in MOS.

That isn't why people were bothered by it. It's not that people couldn't "handle" how realistic the destruction was, it was that they were put off by the fact that the destruction was so realistic and yet the movie barely acknowledged the reality and the tragedy of what was happening and instead focused on portraying the whole thing as an exciting spectacle, so it came off to them as cold and cynical.

46878_10152099798970884_1164969215_n.jpg

something I found on the net...

This is very vague and poorly put together.
 
That isn't why people were bothered by it. It's not that people couldn't "handle" how realistic the destruction was, it was that they were put off by the fact that the destruction was so realistic and yet the movie barely acknowledged the reality and the tragedy of what was happening and instead focused on portraying the whole thing as an exciting spectacle, so it came off to them as cold and cynical.



This is very vague and poorly put together.

Part of that is true, though the appropriate tone happens when Zod goes crashing back to earth. I guess it's too little, too late.
 
Part of that is true, though the appropriate tone happens when Zod goes crashing back to earth. I guess it's too little, too late.

I think so. Honestly, I think it makes it worse. After destruction that likely resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, the movie just now acknowledges that collateral damage and civilian casualties are a thing, and Superman just now shows distress over the potential deaths of four people when before he didn't seem to even think about the probable deaths of thousands going on around him? That feels extremely cynical, like the suddenly serious tone at the end of the fight didn't even matter to the film makers, they just threw it in because they thought people would be expecting it.
 
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I kinda agree. I think people wanted to see more remorse and reflection after the events....I know I did, but I still enjoyed MOS overall
 
Kevin Smith as posted an audio on Supes vs Bats:
'Kevin Smith on: Superman VS Batman - Part 1' Because of the language,I can't post the direct link.
 
Kevin Smith as posted an audio on Supes vs Bats:
'Kevin Smith on: Superman VS Batman - Part 1' Because of the language,I can't post the direct link.

Did you listen to it? I don't have the time or the tech for podcasts unfortunately.
 
I kinda agree. I think people wanted to see more remorse and reflection after the events....I know I did, but I still enjoyed MOS overall

More remorse??? What for???
Funs n jokes... that's how to make big money!!!
 
Kevin Smith as posted an audio on Supes vs Bats:
'Kevin Smith on: Superman VS Batman - Part 1' Because of the language,I can't post the direct link.

Part of which Podcast? Or is it somewhere else?
 
Who is this fellow Kevin Smith?
:D
 
And the Amazing Spiderman too. Where the villains somehow were led or created by the hero. And people keeps ignoring all these but grilled on MOS.

Another perfect example of double standard. Why??? Blaming superman is easier?

Y! Because J. Jonah Jameson says so :cwink:
 
That is rubbish. Superman does not "help start" the attack of the World Engine. He opposes it at every turn. He had no way to know that his use of the command key would bring anyone to earth. To compare this to "helping to start a fire" is to totally apply blame where none is needed.

I think perhaps the fire analogy is going over everyone's head. Oh well I guess I could have phrased it differently. The question should really be... would you still call me a hero if I put out a fire that I was also indirectly responsible for.

And that's exactly what happens in this movie. Superman might be indirectly responsible but he's still responsible for everything that occurs after he draws Zod to Earth. The world was not depicted as some dark place that needed Superman to step in and save it. It's not like in Begins where we saw Gotham being torn apart by crime and corruption and Bruce felt compelled to make a difference. In fact it's quite the contrary. Metropolis - and the world - was just fine before Superman decided to put on his cape and feel the need to instill "hope" in it's citizens.

It was because of Superman that they needed him to defend them from an alien invasion. So whether you want to admit or not, Superman is absolutely to blame whether he was aware of it or not. Animals don't know they're doing wrong when they're ripping apart furniture but that doesn't stop people from blaming it on the dog.
 
Kevin Smith as posted an audio on Supes vs Bats:
'Kevin Smith on: Superman VS Batman - Part 1' Because of the language,I can't post the direct link.

I remember back when he used to make (good) movies instead of getting stoned, podcasting and trash-talking other (better) filmmakers.
 
I think perhaps the fire analogy is going over everyone's head. Oh well I guess I could have phrased it differently. The question should really be... would you still call me a hero if I put out a fire that I was also indirectly responsible for.

And that's exactly what happens in this movie. Superman might be indirectly responsible but he's still responsible for everything that occurs after he draws Zod to Earth. The world was not depicted as some dark place that needed Superman to step in and save it. It's not like in Begins where we saw Gotham being torn apart by crime and corruption and Bruce felt compelled to make a difference. In fact it's quite the contrary. Metropolis - and the world - was just fine before Superman decided to put on his cape and feel the need to instill "hope" in it's citizens.

It was because of Superman that they needed him to defend them from an alien invasion. So whether you want to admit or not, Superman is absolutely to blame whether he was aware of it or not. Animals don't know they're doing wrong when they're ripping apart furniture but that doesn't stop people from blaming it on the dog.

The question is why can't superman be the indirect cause and still be a hero. This is part of the preconception issue that has been going around. The man has to be a saint in his cause before we can consider the characterization successful.

Example. Nolan Batman is a hero. People walk out of that film talking about all his heroic acts. Saving people, saving gotham..etc.

Ignoring the debate of whether the League attacking gotham over the span of the trilogy in the way they did being his fault(it's a debate). Joker's motivation seems to be grounded in Bruce Wayne's above the law decision making. More over, that stuff with Dent and Rachel in particular is very much on our heroes hands.
(plus Bruce caused his parents death, let's be honest here, but where do we draw the line).

It could be argued that superman caused(and saved) more death but that's not the point. The question is why does superman have to be entirely faultless to be considered a great hero?
This film and Zack, I don't envy their position.....the deck was stacked against them.
 
The question is why can't superman be the indirect cause and still be a hero. This is part of the preconception issue that has been going around. The man has to be a saint in his cause before we can consider the characterization successful.

Example. Nolan Batman is a hero. People walk out of that film talking about all his heroic acts. Saving people, saving gotham..etc.

Ignoring the debate of whether the League attacking gotham over the span of the trilogy in the way they did being his fault(it's a debate). Joker's motivation seems to be grounded in Bruce Wayne's above the law decision making. More over, that stuff with Dent and Rachel in particular is very much on our heroes hands.
(plus Bruce caused his parents death, let's be honest here, but where do we draw the line).

It could be argued that superman caused(and saved) more death but that's not the point. The question is why does superman have to be entirely faultless to be considered a great hero?
This film and Zack, I don't envy their position.....the deck was stacked against them.

Exactly. If MOS was a masterpiece, people would be talking about how Nolan did all the heavy lifting. Also, the double standards are immense.

The one movie in which a superhero shows remorse for killing, and people are more bothered about that than a film in which Bruce Wayne creates a deathtrap (twice)?
 
Well that's just the thing, the brand of "conscience" that he offers has to be outright rejected in order to become Superman, rather than being the motivating factor for superman. He has to go against Kent's wishes to do anything heroic. Again, a deterrent rather than a motivation.
Jon never told him to not save people, he told him to keep his godly self a secret until he knew why he was here(this realization came in the form of Jor'EL exposition and the costume and then with Zod). Until that time Jon never said don't save people he said don't announce yourself. Save all the people you want if you can practice ultimate discretion, this led to the mysterious ghost savior(as seen in much of the cannon blue blur/birthright). The only deterrent jon offered was that clark needed to keep his secret. If that's too much of a deterrent for you than this might not be the genre for you.

You see, it could be argued that superman and superheros in particular could save more lives and be more heroic if they didn't bother with all the secret id crap changing in phone booths and all that stuff(however they know better). There is sometimes a greater good in practicing discretion.
Also, while that scene with the bully is great, it does not at all play out in the rest of the movie. What is Zod if not a bully? And if the bully scene isn't relevant to anything else, what is the point of specifically flashing back to that moment?
Here's my problem with this criticism, it's making the wrong and quite frankly most basic correlation to Zod. It's when people do this and then criticize a story for lacking complexity that I feel disheartened.

Jon's advice about bullies was to inform his godly son about how to deal with bullies, something Jon knows his son is bound to encounter in this world. Our world. Jons gives his son advice based on the world and experience he himself has lived in. Jon didn't advice his son on how to deal with a doomsday creature, nor did him advice him about a backwards superman. He told him about how to quell his anger and deal with idiots like the human boys that were clearly below him in both power and integrity. If you want to see how this advice informed who superman becomes look no further than the bar scene in which we see Clark exercise his fathers advice prudently...on that "bully".

Watching the Spiderman films, we see an example of how some hero's misuse their powers on mere mortal bullies. Watching the donnerverse we see even more of that. In MOS, Jon influenced his immortal son with a mortal heart on how to deal with mortals below him. There's your advisory purpose filled. If you want to see Jon advise his son on how to deal with super villains, perhaps we should see a jon that knows of their existence. Or perhaps a film that is more simplified in which Jon just says bullies are bad in all their forms. Punch them.
So what Pa Kent's mixed messages amount to are either advice that is completely counter to becoming Superman or, if it is sound advice, is completely thrown under the rug.
I would argue that Kent's message informs who Superman is to become. A simple hero in a complex world.

A world in which the ultimate good and the immediate good aren't one in the same. One in which people aren't simply celebrated for having costumes and being able fly, one in which being a hero might just come at a cost to one's self.
 
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