All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 94

[Tempest]

It's understandable that Clark would be inexperienced and clumsy when fighting, but I really think him recklessly tackling Zod into downtown Smallville, going through a silo, exploding a gas station, etc, had a LOT more to do with the filmmakers thinking it looked 'cool' and 'awesome' and made Superman look 'bad@$$' rather than them thinking about Clark's inexperience. They could have easily still ended up in Smalliville without it being Clark's fault. Just have Zod suddenly gain the upper hand in the cornfield and throw Clark through the silo and into the gas station. Perhaps after Clark hesitated after seeing where they were headed. Then it would be Zod's fault. And would also show Clark's inexperience in fighting. A lot of the movie was like this to me. Let's make it look cool but not think about much else.

Yes, yes. We know. The fanboys could have made the film better. If only some of you knew how to write. Or make movies.

 

[tomoe]

Yes, yes. We know. The fanboys could have made the film better. If only some of you knew how to write. Or make movies.

If only Goyer knew how to write and Snyder made the film better.

 

[sf2]

If only Goyer knew how to write and Snyder made the film better.

Perhaps he didn't see that scene worth a complaint. Which I agree.

Btw if Goyer didnt know how to write, u wouldn't like the movie.

 

[Binker]

All the "faults" people have had over Superman in MOS are all due to many putting the character on a pedestal and expecting him and treating him to be perfect, thus limiting to almost hypocritical extremes the possibilities of new and fresher ways to reinterpret the character, which in turn have been used throughout his 75 year history and why the character has sticked around since '38. A fact I have found some people have either ignored or otherwise ignorantly refuse to comment on, just so they can get their point across.

The whole "Clark causing destruction in Smallville against Zod just to make him cool", like many of the battles and even the ending, are completely ignorant and ludacris. Why? Well, why did Clark act that way? Zod was at the Kent Farm, along with Faora and others. Zod was threatening Clark's own mother on information on the codex; which in turn, Faora grabbed by the neck and threw her, something that if there was enough force would hurt Martha either with a broken bone or a fatal injury. They were doing this toward his own mother, and we know if someone was threatening our own moms like that, we would be on the defense, with possible rage, ready to fight back. Gee, sounds a lot like what Clark was doing, doesn't it?

Why can't people just THINK?!

 

[tomoe]

All the "faults" people have had over Superman in MOS are all due to many putting the character on a pedestal and expecting him and treating him to be perfect, thus limiting to almost hypocritical extremes the possibilities of new and fresher ways to reinterpret the character, which in turn have been used throughout his 75 year history and why the character has sticked around since '38. A fact I have found some people have either ignored or otherwise ignorantly refuse to comment on, just so they can get their point across.

The whole "Clark causing destruction in Smallville against Zod just to make him cool", like many of the battles and even the ending, are completely ignorant and ludacris. Why? Well, why did Clark act that way? Zod was at the Kent Farm, along with Faora and others. Zod was threatening Clark's own mother on information on the codex; which in turn, Faora grabbed by the neck and threw her, something that if there was enough force would hurt Martha either with a broken bone or a fatal injury. They were doing this toward his own mother, and we know if someone was threatening our own moms like that, we would be on the defense, with possible rage, ready to fight back. Gee, sounds a lot like what Clark was doing, doesn't it?

Why can't people just THINK?!

Yeah why can't Clark just THINK instead of using his muscles as his brains. He didn't exactly guarantee the safety of his mom by barreling Zod away.

 

[DarthDorranceBane]

Yeah why can't Clark think? Yes his mother was threatened and he was angry so he snatched Zod with his superspeed flight... but he continues on flying even after hitting a silo and exploding a gas station. He should be the one stopping those accidents... not causing it.

 

[PacificBoy]

The whole "Clark causing destruction in Smallville against Zod just to make him cool", like many of the battles and even the ending, are completely ignorant and ludacris. Why? Well, why did Clark act that way? Zod was at the Kent Farm, along with Faora and others. Zod was threatening Clark's own mother on information on the codex; which in turn, Faora grabbed by the neck and threw her, something that if there was enough force would hurt Martha either with a broken bone or a fatal injury. They were doing this toward his own mother, and we know if someone was threatening our own moms like that, we would be on the defense, with possible rage, ready to fight back. Gee, sounds a lot like what Clark was doing, doesn't it?

I agree, and the impulse to protect and save Ma Kent works for the Smallville scene, seguing to a terrific action sequence... but in the same regard, that's why it didn't exactly work in the tornado scene.

Yes, Clark might have understood the rationale and intent of Pa Kent's sacrifice, but given how he has been acting, instinctively saving people regardless of the inherent risk of the act -- why would he act any differently now, and leave, of all people, his dad behind?

If this Superman is meant to be more human, more relatable, then this scene failed for me because I couldn't relate to his inaction. I can understand the intent of the scene -- to showcase Pa Kent's nobility -- but I just couldn't feel it.

 

[Herolee10]

I agree, and the impulse to protect and save Ma Kent works for the Smallville scene, seguing to a terrific action sequence... but in the same regard, that's why it didn't exactly work in the tornado scene.

Yes, Clark might have understood the rationale and intent of Pa Kent's sacrifice, but given how he has been acting, instinctively saving people regardless of the inherent risk of the act -- why would he act any differently now, and leave, of all people, his dad behind?

If this Superman is meant to be more human, more relatable, then this scene failed for me because I couldn't relate to his inaction. I can understand the intent of the scene -- to showcase Pa Kent's nobility -- but I just couldn't feel it.

Agreed; I mean, I think it's a well acted scene, but just the wrong execution. They should have placed Clark in a situation where there was nothing that he could have done about it period.

Hell, they could have shown Clark going against his Dad's will and go out in attempt to help everyone else, and since Clark knows that he can't be hurt by any of the debris, he's careless and doesn't really attempt to hide that he can take anything that comes at him. Jonathan, wanting to stop Clark from showing his powers, goes to Clark and in the process, perhaps they could had Jonathan having heart issues in this canon as well, and the strain of trying to get to Clark and bringing him back, maybe even having pushed him out of the way of a flying car that would have hit Clark in front of people, thus revealing that Clark had powers, would provide enough strain to kill Jonathan. That way, Clark still feels guilty but it makes more sense on why he wasn't able to stop Jonathan from dying.

 

[PacificBoy]

Agreed; I mean, I think it's a well acted scene, but just the wrong execution. They should have placed Clark in a situation where there was nothing that he could have done about it period.

Hell, they could have shown Clark going against his Dad's will and go out in attempt to help everyone else, and since Clark knows that he can't be hurt by any of the debris, he's careless and doesn't really attempt to hide that he can take anything that comes at him. Jonathan, wanting to stop Clark from showing his powers, goes to Clark and in the process, perhaps they could had Jonathan having heart issues in this canon as well, and the strain of trying to get to Clark and bringing him back, maybe even having pushed him out of the way of a flying car that would have hit Clark in front of people, thus revealing that Clark had powers, would provide enough strain to kill Jonathan. That way, Clark still feels guilty but it makes more sense on why he wasn't able to stop Jonathan from dying.

This would have worked MUCH better for me. There's more depth to the emotional struggle Clark went through, giving more purpose and reason to Clark's reclusiveness than just pure guilt. I bought Cavil's powerfully acted out pain in the end, but Costner's Jon Kent just lost the will to live a little too quickly for me to make me buy the emotion of the scene.

 

[Tempest]

This would have worked MUCH better for me. There's more depth to the emotional struggle Clark went through, giving more purpose and reason to Clark's reclusiveness than just pure guilt. I bought Cavil's powerfully acted out pain in the end, but Costner's Jon Kent just lost the will to live a little too quickly for me to make me buy the emotion of the scene.

You all over-think and over-analyze every scene and situation. IF you pay attention in the scene, you will see that the overpass is not terribly close to the cars. Jonathan initially got Martha and Clark out of the car, and running toward safety while he stayed behind to help direct people where to go. It's only when Martha and Clark get to the overpass that they realize the dog is left behind. Clark makes his mother stay behind while he runs back towards the car.

The tornado is very close at this point. Jonathan shoves the little girl into Clark's arms and says, "I'll get the dog. Protect her and your mom", or something along those lines. Clark gets back to the overpass with the child, and has to stop his mother from running out towards Jonathan. Clark looks around, desperate to help, not sure if he can risk it, and then he takes a step forward -- and Jonathan raises his hand and shakes his head.

This scene is just a little over two minutes long. The events take place very, very quickly, and then they slow things down right at the end to highlight Clark's struggle, and Jonathan's ultimate choice to protect his son.

It gives terrific insight into why Clark is driven to help people while still trying to remain anonymous, and gives his desire for anonymity more interest and depth.

Is this a perfect scene? Pfffft, no. Tornadoes don't look like that, they seldom go in a straight line, there would have been a lot more debris flying around, blah blah blah, and honestly, I think that it was dumb of the Kents to leave the dog in the car when they realized there was a tornado. But you know what? People do dumb things in RL too, and this whole film is meant to be grounded in reality. The purpose behind many of the characters' actions is not to be perfect, but to be human.

And that's why the tornado scene works so well -- because it shows us how human Clark is, despite his genetics and powers.

 

[PacificBoy]

This scene is just a little over two minutes long. The events take place very, very quickly, and then they slow things down right at the end to highlight Clark's struggle, and Jonathan's ultimate choice to protect his son... People do dumb things in RL too, and this whole film is meant to be grounded in reality.

But that's it. The scene is meant to be reminiscent of a real natural disaster taking place, where desperation sets in and instinct takes over: Jonathan's instinct is to protect his son, and Clark's is to save people. Sure, Clark might be able to rationalize the sacrifice on Jonathan's part, but in the midst of the chaos -- can he act on that? Can any regular person?

The purpose behind many of the characters' actions is not to be perfect, but to be human.

Then this is where the scene lost me. Superman is supposed to be more human so that we can relate to him better. Well, I couldn't relate to his decision to abandon his dad. I get Clark's inaction on a storytelling, intellectual level, but I don't get it in the gut. I couldn't relate to that choice.

It gives terrific insight into why Clark is driven to help people while still trying to remain anonymous, and gives his desire for anonymity more interest and depth.

Interesting view though I don't quite share it fully. I think Clark's biggest desire is to gain acceptance and purpose in life. The desire for anonymity is something Jonathan projected on him rather than something he truly desired.

 

[John-An]

If only Goyer knew how to write and Snyder made the film better.

Many people know how to make better movies right? Goyer did a great job in MOS his previous work on the TDKT as a writer (don't give that **** that Nolan did it... cause he only pulish the details as he did on MOS) STANDING AS ONE OF THE BEST CMB of all... Snyder did also a great job (some people didn't like the flashback things but for me was great not the same thing as we saw in the 70's) but some of people want Superman to be a perfect guy not to have problems.. and we're in a whole different era...

 

[Tempest]

But that's it. The scene is meant to be reminiscent of a real natural disaster taking place, where desperation sets in and instinct takes over: Jonathan's instinct is to protect his son, and Clark's is to save people. Sure, Clark might be able to rationalize the sacrifice on Jonathan's part, but in the midst of the chaos -- can he act on that? Can any regular person?

I don't know if you noticed, but really aside from Kents, there were no other people being that proactive in the scene. That is a perfectly natural response...that's why people are hailed as heroes when they save someone in a dangerous situation. The normal human reaction is to preserve your own life.

With Clark, it was different, of course. He's trying to keep his mother from running towards danger, and he's conflicted by wanting to honor his father's wishes, and wanting to save his father. He hesitated, and in that moment, lost his father.

Then this is where the scene lost me. Superman is supposed to be more human so that we can relate to him better. Well, I couldn't relate to his decision to abandon his dad. I get Clark's inaction on a storytelling, intellectual level, but I don't get it in the gut. I couldn't relate to that choice.

See above. Besides, I don't view it as abandoning his father. He was clearly conflicted, clearly trying to decide the best course of action, and that hesitation is what led to his father's death. It was a normal reaction, not a heartless response to his father being in peril.

Besides, you're still viewing it through the lens of your own expectations of Superman. Clark was not Superman. Clark was little more than a child, who was inexperienced. Not a man who was well-accustomed to saving people.

The punch to the gut for me came with Jonathan's sad smile of acceptance to Clark as the tornado swallowed him up. Can you imagine what he must have been thinking? How much he must have longed for Clark to come save him? And how difficult it would be to make the choice to stop the one person who could save you, just to give them maybe another year or two to grow and learn -- and knowing that you won't be there to see what happens?

Oh, my heart. I love that scene.

Interesting view though I don't quite share it fully. I think Clark's biggest desire is to gain acceptance and purpose in life. The desire for anonymity is something Jonathan projected on him rather than something he truly desired.

I didn't say remaining anonymous was Clark's biggest desire. Just that in the Superman series, he has always wanted to keep his identity a secret. This film gave us a new, compelling reason for Clark to keep his identity a secret.

 

[John-An]

Yeah why can't Clark think? Yes his mother was threatened and he was angry so he snatched Zod with his superspeed flight... but he continues on flying even after hitting a silo and exploding a gas station. He should be the one stopping those accidents... not causing it.

yeah pretend to think to a such a speed having his mother on danger and a totally experienced hero which wasn't... some people don't understand that he hadn't experience he thought the best way to take away Zod from his mom and then as a consequence the other soldiers were in front to support Zod (that wasn't thinking?) in that moment Clark was angry and worried about his mom but the accident was caused by such a speed (something that clark has never used to TO FIGHT OTHER GUY WITH THE SAME POWERS) and not intentionally by Clark I mean he doesn't predict where does he land and even as such inexperience he has

 

[John-An]

I don't know if you noticed, but really aside from Kents, there were no other people being that proactive in the scene. That is a perfectly natural response...that's why people are hailed as heroes when they save someone in a dangerous situation. The normal human reaction is to preserve your own life.

With Clark, it was different, of course. He's trying to keep his mother from running towards danger, and he's conflicted by wanting to honor his father's wishes, and wanting to save his father. He hesitated, and in that moment, lost his father.



See above. Besides, I don't view it as abandoning his father. He was clearly conflicted, clearly trying to decide the best course of action, and that hesitation is what led to his father's death. It was a normal reaction, not a heartless response to his father being in peril.

Besides, you're still viewing it through the lens of your own expectations of Superman. Clark was not Superman. Clark was little more than a child, who was inexperienced. Not a man who was well-accustomed to saving people.

The punch to the gut for me came with Jonathan's sad smile of acceptance to Clark as the tornado swallowed him up. Can you imagine what he must have been thinking? How much he must have longed for Clark to come save him? And how difficult it would be to make the choice to stop the one person who could save you, just to give them maybe another year or two to grow and learn -- and knowing that you won't be there to see what happens?

Oh, my heart. I love that scene.



I didn't say remaining anonymous was Clark's biggest desire. Just that in the Superman series, he has always wanted to keep his identity a secret. This film gave us a new, compelling reason for Clark to keep his identity a secret.

Man I think we saw the same movie

 

[John-An]

Yeah why can't Clark just THINK instead of using his muscles as his brains. He didn't exactly guarantee the safety of his mom by barreling Zod away.

AS I told you in previous posts... Clark thought the best way at the moment that if he tacke Zod... The other soldiers would be supporting him and obey Zod orders.. that's the way MILITARY works...

 

[John-An]

All the "faults" people have had over Superman in MOS are all due to many putting the character on a pedestal and expecting him and treating him to be perfect, thus limiting to almost hypocritical extremes the possibilities of new and fresher ways to reinterpret the character, which in turn have been used throughout his 75 year history and why the character has sticked around since '38. A fact I have found some people have either ignored or otherwise ignorantly refuse to comment on, just so they can get their point across.

The whole "Clark causing destruction in Smallville against Zod just to make him cool", like many of the battles and even the ending, are completely ignorant and ludacris. Why? Well, why did Clark act that way? Zod was at the Kent Farm, along with Faora and others. Zod was threatening Clark's own mother on information on the codex; which in turn, Faora grabbed by the neck and threw her, something that if there was enough force would hurt Martha either with a broken bone or a fatal injury. They were doing this toward his own mother, and we know if someone was threatening our own moms like that, we would be on the defense, with possible rage, ready to fight back. Gee, sounds a lot like what Clark was doing, doesn't it?

Why can't people just THINK?!

Agreed... that was the purpose of the scene to show a hero inexpert that was worried about his mom and at the moment the situation and the feelings were against clark yeah he made mistakes but the good thing is to learn from them and to make it better in time... they tried to show us a more human Clark not the perfect hero that born with hability to fight and nothing happens to him...

 

[Feenix]

I don't know if you noticed, but really aside from Kents, there were no other people being that proactive in the scene. That is a perfectly natural response...that's why people are hailed as heroes when they save someone in a dangerous situation. The normal human reaction is to preserve your own life.

With Clark, it was different, of course. He's trying to keep his mother from running towards danger, and he's conflicted by wanting to honor his father's wishes, and wanting to save his father. He hesitated, and in that moment, lost his father.



See above. Besides, I don't view it as abandoning his father. He was clearly conflicted, clearly trying to decide the best course of action, and that hesitation is what led to his father's death. It was a normal reaction, not a heartless response to his father being in peril.

Besides, you're still viewing it through the lens of your own expectations of Superman. Clark was not Superman. Clark was little more than a child, who was inexperienced. Not a man who was well-accustomed to saving people.

The punch to the gut for me came with Jonathan's sad smile of acceptance to Clark as the tornado swallowed him up. Can you imagine what he must have been thinking? How much he must have longed for Clark to come save him? And how difficult it would be to make the choice to stop the one person who could save you, just to give them maybe another year or two to grow and learn -- and knowing that you won't be there to see what happens?

Oh, my heart. I love that scene.



I didn't say remaining anonymous was Clark's biggest desire. Just that in the Superman series, he has always wanted to keep his identity a secret. This film gave us a new, compelling reason for Clark to keep his identity a secret.

Except that Clark could have easily saved his father and kept his identity fairly secret. When Lois goes digging through his past, she hears all these stories about the random guy who performed extraordinary feats. Saving his father would have been yet another story, not a full out declaration of who he is. Like I said before, the people in the scene were trying to get away from the tornado, they weren't about to stop and risk their life to watch what Clark would do. It's just not believable for me that Clark didn't save his father because his father wanted him to protect his identity. That scene would not have outed him.

 

[PacificBoy]

I don't know if you noticed, but really aside from Kents, there were no other people being that proactive in the scene. That is a perfectly natural response...that's why people are hailed as heroes when they save someone in a dangerous situation. The normal human reaction is to preserve your own life.

Not disputing that Clark and Jonathan were heroes.

Besides, I don't view it as abandoning his father. He was clearly conflicted, clearly trying to decide the best course of action, and that hesitation is what led to his father's death. It was a normal reaction, not a heartless response to his father being in peril.

I'd say the decision was made for him by Jonathan. Clark had little say in the matter. Yes, he was clearly conflicted, and that's normal, normal for anyone. What I'm disputing is the 'normal reaction' of Clark, given the traits and behaviors of his that were established earlier.

Besides, you're still viewing it through the lens of your own expectations of Superman. Clark was not Superman.

I didn't say Clark's behavior wasn't conforming to my expectations of Superman. What I said was "Superman is supposed to be more human" -- I'm trying to understand the more human, the more relatable version of Superman in this retelling. And in his decision not to save his dad, he wasn't relatable, Clark or Superman.

Clark was little more than a child, who was inexperienced. Not a man who was well-accustomed to saving people.

Exactly. Clark was barely out of his teens at this juncture, and he just had the "You're not my dad" argument with Jonathan in the car. He's a bundle of raw emotion. Coupled with the desperation of the situation, his father in peril, and his demonstrated instinct to ignore risk to save lives, the odds are he'd go "screw it, dad" and dive headlong into his rescue than to respect and appreciate his dad's sacrifice, and not act. It wasn't believable for the character established.

The punch to the gut for me came with Jonathan's sad smile of acceptance to Clark as the tornado swallowed him up. Can you imagine what he must have been thinking? How much he must have longed for Clark to come save him? And how difficult it would be to make the choice to stop the one person who could save you, just to give them maybe another year or two to grow and learn -- and knowing that you won't be there to see what happens?

Oh, my heart. I love that scene.

You know, I wish I could have felt the moment the way you put it. (But I'm glad you did.). Although... aren't you 'overthinking' in this instance too? However, like I said, there's nothing wrong in reading greatly into the scene or moment.

I didn't say remaining anonymous was Clark's biggest desire. Just that in the Superman series, he has always wanted to keep his identity a secret. This film gave us a new, compelling reason for Clark to keep his identity a secret.

I thought it was unnecessary angst, the guilt, drama for the sake of drama. Making Clark feel this much guilty over his dad's passing didn't add to the story. Jonathan died to protect Clark's anonymity because he felt the world wasn't ready for him. But the world wasn't ready when Zod came a calling; there will be people who accept him for he is (the Kents, Lois) and those that don't quite -- the world is as ready as it'll ever be for a first contact.

 

[Tempest]

Except that Clark could have easily saved his father and kept his identity fairly secret. When Lois goes digging through his past, she hears all these stories about the random guy who performed extraordinary feats. Saving his father would have been yet another story, not a full out declaration of who he is. Like I said before, the people in the scene were trying to get away from the tornado, they weren't about to stop and risk their life to watch what Clark would do. It's just not believable for me that Clark didn't save his father because his father wanted him to protect his identity. That scene would not have outed him.

There were thirty people watching Jonathan's struggle to get to the over-pass. They would have definitely noticed Clark running into the wind. Couple that with the potential for interviews by the media and police, plus the added complication of being sort of well-known in the area, and things could easily have gotten out of hand for the Kents very quickly.

In the other instances, Clark was a stranger and loner who showed up in town (with a fake name), and then after he saved someone, drifted away from that area. Totally different scenarios.

Not disputing that Clark and Jonathan were heroes.

I know. I was pointing out that they were really the only ones doing heroic things in that scene. The other people were really just running and screaming, and generally looking terrified. One of your arguments was that Clark wasn't acting like a normal person, and if you put it into true perspective, you would see that his hesitation was indeed very human.

I'd say the decision was made for him by Jonathan. Clark had little say in the matter. Yes, he was clearly conflicted, and that's normal, normal for anyone. What I'm disputing is the 'normal reaction' of Clark, given the traits and behaviors of his that were established earlier.

You mean after he saved kids, and was treated even more like an outsider by his peers and their parents? Yes, he went and saved those kids, and the thanks he got for it were people being more afraid of him. His hesitation was part Jonathan, and I'm sure, part of his own natural fears of how he'd be treated. A very, very human reaction. -pets woobie!Clark-

I didn't say Clark's behavior wasn't conforming to my expectations of Superman. What I said was "Superman is supposed to be more human" -- I'm trying to understand the more human, the more relatable version of Superman in this retelling. And in his decision not to save his dad, he wasn't relatable.

I don't think he 'decided' not to save his dad. He hesitated because of his own fear, and then he hesitated another moment because his father told him not to come. It wasn't a decision to let his dad die...it was really his indecision that led to that moment.

Which actually leads us into the argument of why Clark was so careless when he saved his mom....he hesitated with saving his father, and look what happened. Bet you ten bucks he was thinking that he wouldn't make the same mistake with his mother's life at stake.

Exactly. Clark was barely out of his teens at this juncture, and he just had the "You're not my dad" argument with Jonathan in the car. He's a bundle of raw emotion. Coupled with the desperation of the situation, his father in peril, and his demonstrated instinct to ignore risk to save lives, the odds are he'd go "screw it, dad" and dive headlong into his rescue than to respect and appreciate his dad's sacrifice, and not act. It wasn't believable for the character established.

Yes, but again, look how people responded when he saved them. Like I said, I'm sure that played a role in how he responded.

You know, I wish I could have felt the moment the way you put it. (But I'm glad you did.). Although... aren't you 'overthinking' in this instance too? However, like I said, there's nothing wrong in reading greatly into the scene or moment.

Not reading too much into it, because Jonathan's sacrifice was a mirror to the sacrifice Lara and Jor-El made. They said everything that any parent would. It's not hard to figure out what Jonathan would be thinking in those moments. (Fanfic time! )

I thought it was unnecessary angst, the guilt, drama for the sake of drama. Making Clark feel this much guilty over his dad's passing didn't add to the story. Jonathan died to protect Clark's anonymity because he felt the world wasn't ready for him. But the world wasn't ready when Zod came a calling; there will be people who accept him for he is (the Kents, Lois) and those that don't quite -- the world was as ready as it ever was.

The world wasn't ready. Jonathan knew that. But he also knew that Clark wasn't ready to deal with a world who would not accept him. And that is why he sacrificed himself. It had less to do with the world, and everything to do with Clark. He wanted to give Clark that chance to be able to stand up in front of the world without shame or fear. The conversation in the car proved that Clark was not emotionally ready to deal with what he would face.

It wasn't fear that drove Jonathan's sacrifice. It was love.

 

[John-An]

Exactly. Clark was barely out of his teens at this juncture, and he just had the "You're not my dad" argument with Jonathan in the car. He's a bundle of raw emotion. Coupled with the desperation of the situation, his father in peril, and his demonstrated instinct to ignore risk to save lives, the odds are he'd go "screw it, dad" and dive headlong into his rescue than to respect and appreciate his dad's sacrifice, and not act. It wasn't believable for the character established.

But if you put in the other angle after the discussion he hesitated.. the scenario was difficult.. Every person watching at Pa Kent...He was holding his mom not to run for Johna... He didn't know what to do.. in many situations even teenagers got freeze and don't know what to do thinking at the moment the possible consequences of leaving his mom, his secret and other things that were in the game... It was a very human reaction... pretty believable IMO he understood the sacrifice of his dad and not risking nor MArtha's life in order to get into Clark feelings to control him nor the future he wished for him...

 

[PacificBoy]

I know. I was pointing out that they were really the only ones doing heroic things in that scene. The other people were really just running and screaming, and generally looking terrified. One of your arguments was that Clark wasn't acting like a normal person, and if you put it into true perspective, you would see that his hesitation was indeed very human.

You mean after he saved kids, and was treated even more like an outsider by his peers and their parents? Yes, he went and saved those kids, and the thanks he got for it were people being more afraid of him. His hesitation was part Jonathan, and I'm sure, part of his own natural fears of how he'd be treated. A very, very human reaction. -pets woobie!Clark-

Clark's hesitation was human indeed, and being alienated did bother him but it has never stopped him in his tracks; there never was any hesitation in him when it comes to saving lives (bus of kids, oil rig, Lois in the scout ship). As Lois says, "that's not an option." Not before that fateful moment, not after.

I don't think he 'decided' not to save his dad. He hesitated because of his own fear, and then he hesitated another moment because his father told him not to come. It wasn't a decision to let his dad die...it was really his indecision that led to that moment.

Which actually leads us into the argument of why Clark was so careless when he saved his mom....he hesitated with saving his father, and look what happened. Bet you ten bucks he was thinking that he wouldn't make the same mistake with his mother's life at stake.

I believe it was very much a conscious choice. Clark himself said that he 'let his father die because he trusted him', that's why the guilt or burden of that choice weighs so heavily on him. Clark rushing in to protect his mother, without hesitation, is characteristic of him. Not doing the same for Jonathan, less so.

Not reading too much into it, because Jonathan's sacrifice was a mirror to the sacrifice Lara and Jor-El made. They said everything that any parent would. It's not hard to figure out what Jonathan would be thinking in those moments. (Fanfic time! )

No arguments from me here.

The world wasn't ready. Jonathan knew that. But he also knew that Clark wasn't ready to deal with a world who would not accept him. And that is why he sacrificed himself. It had less to do with the world, and everything to do with Clark. He wanted to give Clark that chance to be able to stand up in front of the world without shame or fear. The conversation in the car proved that Clark was not emotionally ready to deal with what he would face.

It wasn't fear that drove Jonathan's sacrifice. It was love.

I agree, underpinning Jonathan's every decision concerning Clark is love, but the overprotectiveness in that love manifested itself as a fearfulness. Because of Jonathan's sacrifice, Clark took on the same conviction that the world wasn't ready, that if the world found out who he was, they'd reject him out of fear.

Yes, the conversation in the car proved that Clark was not emotionally ready to deal with what he would face, but as the meeting with the priest shows, Clark will never ever be truly ready. Believing in the people is, as the priest says, "a leap of faith". It was, ironically, Jonathan's sacrifice which held him back from taking that leap. Only Zod appearing forced his hand.

 

[PacificBoy]

But if you put in the other angle after the discussion he hesitated.. the scenario was difficult.. Every person watching at Pa Kent...He was holding his mom not to run for Johna... He didn't know what to do.. in many situations even teenagers got freeze and don't know what to do thinking at the moment the possible consequences of leaving his mom, his secret and other things that were in the game... It was a very human reaction... pretty believable IMO he understood the sacrifice of his dad and not risking nor MArtha's life in order to get into Clark feelings to control him nor the future he wished for him...

Agree, it was a difficult situation, and Clark freezing and hesitating is very believable. But the Clark we know always ends up saving people. It's what he does, unflinchingly.

This is the same Clark who after lifting the bus out of the river, goes back for Pete Ross. The same Clark who exposed his identity at the oil rig to save every single last oil rigger.

 

[Tempest]

Clark's hesitation was human indeed, and being alienated did bother him but it has never stopped him in his tracks; there never was any hesitation in him when it comes to saving lives (bus of kids, oil rig, Lois in the scout ship). As Lois says, "that's not an option." Not before that fateful moment, not after.

Maybe. I was just offering up a suggestion based on what we've seen in canon. So you're probably right. See? I can be agreeable sometimes.

I believe it was very much a conscious choice. Clark himself said that he 'let his father die because he trusted him', that's why the guilt or burden of that choice weighs so heavily on him. Clark rushing in to protect his mother, without hesitation, is characteristic of him. Not doing the same for Jonathan, less so.

Or the grief and guilt he feels is not just because Clark actively chose not to save his father, but because his indecision was basically allowing his father to die. Lots of people blame themselves in tragedy, even if there was nothing they could do. In this case, Clark could have done something, but held back a few moments too long.

I do agree that it was partially a conscious choice to not rescue his father, but the bigger part of him wanted to get involved. Why didn't he? Because his father told him not to. And despite the conversation they'd had just a few minutes earlier, Clark really does respect his father's opinions.

No arguments from me here.

I knew we could get there if we tried long enough!

I agree, underpinning Jonathan's every decision concerning Clark is love, but the overprotectiveness in that love manifested itself as a fearfulness. Because of Jonathan's sacrifice, Clark took on the same conviction that the world wasn't ready, that if the world found out who he was, they'd reject him out of fear.

Yes, the conversation in the car proved that Clark was not emotionally ready to deal with what he would face, but as the meeting with the priest shows, Clark will never ever be truly ready. Believing in the people is, as the priest says, "a leap of faith". It was, ironically, Jonathan's sacrifice which held him back from taking that leap. Only Zod appearing forced his hand.

I don't think so. We saw how the military responded to him. We saw how other people responded to Clark who at least suspected something was different about him. Besides, as I mentioned, Jonathan really wasn't just concerned about the world's reaction to Clark.

He was very much concerned about Clark's ability to handle the rejection and fear he'd face. And he was very concerned that Clark understood where the lines were in how he should use his abilities.

Jonathan said several times, "When you show the world who you are...." He knew that the time would come for Clark to step up and let the world see him (although I'm sure that as a parent, Jonathan half-hoped that would never happen at all). He wanted to make sure Clark knew who he was before he did so. He says that several times as well.

Now, we've talked that scene to death. What else can we linger on?

 

[PacificBoy]

Maybe. I was just offering up a suggestion based on what we've seen in canon. So you're probably right. See? I can be agreeable sometimes.

This I agree!

Or the grief and guilt he feels is not just because Clark actively chose not to save his father, but because his indecision was basically allowing his father to die. Lots of people blame themselves in tragedy, even if there was nothing they could do. In this case, Clark could have done something, but held back a few moments too long.

I do agree that it was partially a conscious choice to not rescue his father, but the bigger part of him wanted to get involved. Why didn't he? Because his father told him not to. And despite the conversation they'd had just a few minutes earlier, Clark really does respect his father's opinions.

That's certainly another reading of it. Again, no arguments here.

I knew we could get there if we tried long enough!

Boy, did we!

I don't think so. We saw how the military responded to him. We saw how other people responded to Clark who at least suspected something was different about him. Besides, as I mentioned, Jonathan really wasn't just concerned about the world's reaction to Clark.

He was very much concerned about Clark's ability to handle the rejection and fear he'd face. And he was very concerned that Clark understood where the lines were in how he should use his abilities.

Jonathan said several times, "When you show the world who you are...." He knew that the time would come for Clark to step up and let the world see him (although I'm sure that as a parent, Jonathan half-hoped that would never happen at all). He wanted to make sure Clark knew who he was before he did so. He says that several times as well.

A sentiment I got but didn't feel. Thanks for putting it out there all the same.

Now, we've talked that scene to death. What else can we linger on?

We did, didn't we. Until the next contentious scene comes up for discussion I guess