All Things Wonder Woman: An Open Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[jaymes_e06]

I dissagree those were some of the moments with the most sincerity.

 

[Dark Raven]

I read somewhere that it is also visually influenced by this famous scene:

I think Patty Jenkins confirmed that.

https://www.bustle.com/p/this-wonde...ous-movie-moment-but-not-little-mermaid-65058

 

[Guts]

I double quoted to just point out that we are interpreting Wonder Woman (the movie) incredibly differently because of that single line in BvS shows that it does have some importance. And the way that it is delivered and contextualized in BvS is meant to be interpreted that she has not fought to help humanity in a century.

With that said, I strongly disagree with Greenlite's interpretation and it is not what Jenkins is going for. Her jumping into Paris (not London ) is not indicative of Bruce Wayne's letter or Superman's sacrifice. It is her answering a call, one she never abandoned. The lines in Wonder Woman that matter are "They are everything you say and so much more." Her opinion did not sour on humanity.

Which is all to say that I agree if Patty wants to make another movie set in a time period, and I hope she does, that she has the freedom to do so. I imagine they will just ignore that one line in BvS. Because the ending it set up for her solo movie is not the ending we ended up getting. We got a better one.

Patty already said she wants to do the Wonder Woman sequel in modern day America.

 

[DACrowe]

Patty already said she wants to do the Wonder Woman sequel in modern day America.

 

[Flemm]

The outburst was fine; even good. But I was very aware of the fact that she was an actress trying to portray grief before that. She knew what to do, and to her credit came close to pulling it off, but fell short.

I will chime in simply to note disagreement on that point.

The shock and horror at what happened came across as 100% natural and sincere to me.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

The outburst was fine; even good. But I was very aware of the fact that she was an actress trying to portray grief before that. She knew what to do, and to her credit came close to pulling it off, but fell short.

I definitely felt that during

Spoiler

Antiope's death

but that whole scene was cliche and made me roll my eyes. Character dying slowly, character must struggle to say last words, other characters cry NO! With that being said I felt Connie did it better than Gal.

 

[-Arya-]

I will chime in simply to note disagreement on that point.

The shock and horror at what happened came across as 100% natural and sincere to me.

Yeah it felt sincere to me

 

[Boy Scout]

I will chime in simply to note disagreement on that point.

The shock and horror at what happened came across as 100% natural and sincere to me.

Agree to disagree then.

 

[Flemm]

Agree to disagree then.

Agreement/Disagreement confirmed

 

[Greenlite]

Riight. Here's what Patty Jenkins had to say :

I think that there is potentially a misunderstanding between what it means to turn her back on mankind… there could be a difference between having people save themselves and knowing that people must save themselves, and even still, being optimistic and loving about them.

So yeah...no ignoring, but believe what you wanna believe.

I think its more wishful thinking than anything else.

Ya so there's that.

 

[Micromind]

I will chime in simply to note disagreement on that point.

The shock and horror at what happened came across as 100% natural and sincere to me.

Her reaction to death of people in the small Town which was gassed was on point, I think Gal did a good job of portraying her shock and sadness in that scene without going over the top and becoming melodramatic.

 

[Micromind]

Riight. Here's what Patty Jenkins had to say :

I think that there is potentially a misunderstanding between what it means to turn her back on mankind… there could be a difference between having people save themselves and knowing that people must save themselves, and even still, being optimistic and loving about them.

So yeah...no ignoring, but believe what you wanna believe.

I liked what Andrew Dyce said on the subject :

In essence, Jenkins suggests that Diana may win the day, but ultimately have her eyes opened to the reality of man’s world. Instead of grabbing up her sword, shield, armor, and taking responsibility for the world’s problems, she realizes she must step back and let it follow its own course. The real key point here isn’t whether or not Diana “walked away from mankind” – she admits as much to Bruce – but the esteem in which she held mankind as she surrendered any duty to save it.

Looking at it from the perspective Jenkins suggests, setting Diana up as simply observing mankind while holding onto love and hope for its future makes her role in Batman V Superman and Justice League even richer. You could argue that Superman is a perfect embodiment of the hero, the icon, the ‘savior’ she chose not to be for the world. Over the course of Snyder’s films that means Diana has seen her decision validated, given the torment Superman is put through… until his death shows how much impact a single hero can have.

At the very least, the world’s embrace of Superman after his death could give her hope she’s apparently been missing by the time she re-emerges. The events of BvS and the new threats of Justice League hopefully show her that mankind isn’t capable of defending itself from every enemy. And Unlike World War I, this threat is even beyond the guilt or responsibility of everyday humans… we assume. Unless you want to blame Lex Luthor. Always blame Lex Luthor.

Nicely summed up.

^ Agreed.

 

[jmc]

Context matters in terms of what WW said in BvS, her exact quote is this:

"A hundred years ago I walked away from mankind. A century full of horrors... Mankind made a world where standing together is impossible."

It's hard to look at that quote without taking into account the dour tone of BvS, how depressing and anti-heroic the characterisations of its heroes are. It fits inline with the Superman who finds being a hero a chore, and a Batman who has developed a thirst for blood. WW on the other hand is all about heroism and leadership which is in stark contrast to BvS and MoS to a lesser extent. So even if you can justify Diana's words in BvS retroactively, the problem is in context of that film it comes across as someone who gave up, who saw humanity for what it was and chose to do nothing about it. Regardless of how you spin it tonally there is a conflict between how those words apply in BvS and how they apply in WW.

 

[Flemm]

It's hard to look at that quote without taking into account the dour tone of BvS, how depressing and anti-heroic the characterisations of its heroes are. It fits inline with the Superman who finds being a hero a chore, and a Batman who has developed a thirst for blood. WW on the other hand is all about heroism and leadership which is in stark contrast to BvS and MoS to a lesser extent. So even if you can justify Diana's words in BvS retroactively, the problem is in context of that film it comes across as someone who gave up, who saw humanity for what it was and chose to do nothing about it. Regardless of how you spin it tonally there is a conflict between how those words apply in BvS and how they apply in WW.

Yeah, the question of whether or not one can make it work from a continuity standpoint is irrelevant, imho. (Or at least a secondary concern by a *lot*.)

The point is that this movie found a tone and a style of characterization that worked much better than what was being done previously.

"Much better" being an extreme understatement.

At some point one just has to acknowledge that something like bloodthirsty Batman was a mistake and stop doing it. Forget about the continuity with that stuff.

 

[Micromind]

At some point one just has to acknowledge that something like bloodthirsty Batman was a mistake and stop doing it. Forget about the continuity with that stuff.

Batman was already shown much more calm and controlled in Suicide Squad, which takes place after BvS.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Batman was already shown much more calm and controlled in Suicide Squad, which takes place after BvS.

Wasn't a lot of that flashback though? It seemed to be a younger, slimmer Batman, and he didn't have all the armor that Batman in BvS has. So other than the part where Bruce is talking to Amanda Waller during the
credits, I think the Batman we saw in Suicide Squad is an earlier version than the BvS Batman, even though the actual form up of Task Force X and their mission may well have been after BvS.

 

[dhandler01]

Batman was already shown much more calm and controlled in Suicide Squad, which takes place after BvS.

That Batman was in Flashbacks so most likely it was pre-BvS. There is no way he caught all of the Suicide Squad and Joker/Harley that fast after BvS. Plus it would make Batman look even worse if Joker had been running around Gotham and instead of trying to catch him he decided he just had to kill Superman.

 

[idiot09]

I really think the cinematography in this movie is not praised enough. Its really good. I was worried when the I heard they hired F4's guy, but him and Jenkins sure did their magic.

 

[Flemm]

Batman was already shown much more calm and controlled in Suicide Squad, which takes place after BvS.

I just think the focus should be on the best possible portrayal of the lead characters, that's all I'm saying.

To me, that was the best thing about WW.

Seeing it again on Father's Day, we were really struck by the great atmosphere. Hilarity during the boat scene. Cheers later on. One thing that really struck me was people were picking up on the nuances in the character material.

 

[jfurioso]

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2017-06-18/shiori-teshirogi-draws-justice-league-origin-wonder-woman-manga/.117651

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I just think the focus should be on the best possible portrayal of the lead characters, that's all I'm saying.

I get that and I can agree that the characterization can be better and they can find a balance between MoS, BvS and WW.

 

[idiot09]

#ThrowbackTuesday

 

[Osiris-Rex]

#ThrowbackTuesday

The very definition of Fake News.

 

[Flemm]

The very definition of Fake News.

Not bad.

I hesitated between the following responses:

1) Groaning is easily misinterpreted and can mean a lot of different things.

and

2) Were they crying like babies and cheering like rowdy sports fans for the BvS and SS screenings? If so, we've identified the problem. Don't invite those people to the screenings

 

[metaphysician]

Yeah, the question of whether or not one can make it work from a continuity standpoint is irrelevant, imho. (Or at least a secondary concern by a *lot*.)

The point is that this movie found a tone and a style of characterization that worked much better than what was being done previously.

"Much better" being an extreme understatement.

At some point one just has to acknowledge that something like bloodthirsty Batman was a mistake and stop doing it. Forget about the continuity with that stuff.

Not like they didn't already dial back the Batmurder in Suicide Squad. As many issues as the movie had, it was already a step on the "moving away from BvS" path.