Comics Amazing Spider-Man #561

[Miken Ayers]

Which was why "Sins Past" no longer exists in Continuity.

Right?

Right?

Tell me all of my HATRED AND RAGE wasn't for nothing! Please!

Sins Past fuggin ruled. And it didn't kill sales either so the haters there didn't try hard enough. Oh and it still is in continuity. First time Spidey fought Menace he mentioned the Grey Goblin, and in Thunderbolts Norman mentioned that he likes to get blonde girls pregnant then break their necks.

 

[Styleshift]

The great thing about comics is that, most of the time, I can just pretend a story I didn't like, didn't happen. Especially if there are no ongoing reprecussions.

So I had wiped out Sins Past, and just kept on with my life


Untill they mentioned it again! Gah! It's so hard to forget!

Exactly t:...stuff like that is very easy to forget....until they remind you about it that is... its like the stupid kid that you meet again in college reminding you about the times you got made fun of in high school or other worse embarrasing moments of your life that happened previously.

I even tried this with BND but there were to many allusions to OMD in this issue.

 

[Styleshift]

Sins Past fuggin ruled. And it didn't kill sales either so the haters there didn't try hard enough. Oh and it still is in continuity. First time Spidey fought Menace he mentioned the Grey Goblin, and in Thunderbolts Norman mentioned that he likes to get blonde girls pregnant then break their necks.

yup...thats what i said.
by the way none of us actually flat out said it was a horrible story....
because it was very well written and any one of us that appreciates literature knows that. it just that it destroyed gwen's character in the process and thats what people are upset about...even JMS REALLY wanted to retcon it. it's why the gwen twins were never ever once again mentioned in his book. (he knows not to remind ppl if something is unpopular )

come on. think about it. you've got this hot girlfriend, shes EXTREMELY smart y'all have never done anything and are planning to get married....but all of the sudden shes messing around with your best friends dad? oooook.

The original dad was set to be Peter and I believe it was changed at the last min. especially because of the reaction and emotion he displays.

personally I think this story would have been 100x better if gwen was unwilling.

 

[Themanofbat]

personally I think this story would have been 100x better if gwen was unwilling.

I agree... the story would have been AWESOME had Norman just flat out "raped" Gwen...



God... I felt "yucky" just typing that...

 

[Blader5489]

I thought the implication was that Norman did rape Gwen; that he hypnotized her into statutory rape. Doesn't Gwen say something like she "magnetically drawn to him"?

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Thanks, she was the bees knees.

Well, all I can say is I love it right now. More than anytime since maybe the 80s. I really am sorry that the direction causes bad feelings, but all I can do is to say that I like it, and why.

Really? Since the 80's? Sad thing is, when you said it, I thought back and yeah, there really hasn't been much good in Spidey post 80's.

Maybe some early 90's stuff. I did like the McFarlane era and then the Eric Larsen era. But, then we got into the Clone Saga and the rest has been a mess: Gathering of the Five, Re-boot, Blow-up MJ, separate with MJ, Sins Past, the Other, un-masking . . . I see this OMD/BND as the topper, and even worse than that other stuff.

And it is not the marriage thing either. I honestly think the stories have been rather blah. I know you're also a longtime fan, and I'm glad you are enjoying it. I just don't feel these stories are any good. Nowhere near what they were in the 60's, 70's, and 80's.

I just think those stories were good and not because of the situation he was in, which is what Marvel seems to think, therefore regressing Pete's situation.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Well, i've been giving it some thought and maybe MJ DOESN'T remember the pre-OMD reality after all. Her dialogue (and choice of reading material) could all have been for our benefit, and the other life she mentioned was probably referencing her and Peter's previous relationship (unmarried, post-BND).

Also, no one commented on my theory of Sara having identity issues? I'm disappointed.

I agree that may be the case with MJ.

The reason I haven't really commented on Sara is the MJ thing bothers me that I don't really care. (For the record, it looks like they could go either way with Jackpot. And maybe Marvel is waiting out what the fans are saying before deciding. And you know with what happened to the Green Goblin's id in the 60's, Hobgoblin's in the 80's, and Ben Reilly thing in the 90's, Jackpot's id may go through flux.)

 

[Spider-Gnome]

My thoughts exactly, Gnome.

MJ remembers...but is banging another guy?

Cap, why the screen name change? I liked CaptainStacy!

 

[iloveclones]

Really? Since the 80's? Sad thing is, when you said it, I thought back and yeah, there really hasn't been much good in Spidey post 80's.

Maybe some early 90's stuff. I did like the McFarlane era and then the Eric Larsen era. But, then we got into the Clone Saga and the rest has been a mess: Gathering of the Five, Re-boot, Blow-up MJ, separate with MJ, Sins Past, the Other, un-masking . . . I see this OMD/BND as the topper, and even worse than that other stuff.

And it is not the marriage thing either. I honestly think the stories have been rather blah. I know you're also a longtime fan, and I'm glad you are enjoying it. I just don't feel these stories are any good. Nowhere near what they were in the 60's, 70's, and 80's.

I just think those stories were good and not because of the situation he was in, which is what Marvel seems to think, therefore regressing Pete's situation.

Well, I didn't say they were better than, I said I haven't enjoyed them as much since.....

Frankly, I doubt there will ever be as good a run as those first 200 issues or so. That probably has more to do with the fact that I was a kid reading them, so I naturally have more affection/nostalgia for them. I think anybody's favorite era would be the one they started with.

I did like stuff in between, McFarlane comes to mind, but it never was quite as good.

 

[imdaly]

Okay, so I JUST now read the issue:

1. I SOOOOO Called the Jackpot thingy!

Just a thought, but...with the mention of a celebrity stalker coming up in ASM #560...could the girl who's really Jackpot be some crazed MJ stalker who's acting like MJ and a superhero all into one??

2. About what MJ "knows": I say she's refering back to their relationship that they had for years.

Remember, MJ knew who Peter was since wayyyyy back around when Pete left his house in his Spidey suit one day. And she kept that knowledge to herself all those years...until Peter proposed to her.

So let's pretend that in this Post-OMD world the turning point was that Pete never proposed to MJ. They just continued on dating for years, never making that step.

I'd imagine it'd be easy to assume that perhaps after so many years MJ knowing his secret and thinking that Peter obviously doesn't trust her enough to tell her his secret would get to her eventually. Who's to say that Pete and MJ didn't eventually break-up simply because MJ felt she wasn't trusted by Peter enough for him to let her into such a large part of his life?

And who's to say that when she's talking to Spidey in #561 about "meeting in another life" and such, that she's not referring to the fact that here's this guy who she might still be with if only he would've trusted her with his secret...that that "past life" was that life they had...or could've had...if he'd just told her the truth?

If that IS the case, which I think is very plausable...then I don't see how it's horrible at all for MJ to try to move on with another man.



And of course, if this is the answer, then that would also explain why the writers are leaving the "new history" a secret in so many ways still...as it just makes these new mysteries that much more enjoyable to figure out.

 

[Styleshift]

I agree... the story would have been AWESOME had Norman just flat out "raped" Gwen...



God... I felt "yucky" just typing that...

HA! I'm glad im not the only one that felt that way...

still I liked sins past. and the monolouge in thunder bolts PROVES it was a brilliant story. even if gwen wasn't the "nice school girl" she portrayed in the classic books. it brought a WHOLE new level to the goblin

 

[Miken Ayers]

yup...thats what i said.
by the way none of us actually flat out said it was a horrible story....
because it was very well written and any one of us that appreciates literature knows that. it just that it destroyed gwen's character in the process and thats what people are upset about...even JMS REALLY wanted to retcon it. it's why the gwen twins were never ever once again mentioned in his book. (he knows not to remind ppl if something is unpopular )

come on. think about it. you've got this hot girlfriend, shes EXTREMELY smart y'all have never done anything and are planning to get married....but all of the sudden shes messing around with your best friends dad? oooook.

The original dad was set to be Peter and I believe it was changed at the last min. especially because of the reaction and emotion he displays.

personally I think this story would have been 100x better if gwen was unwilling.

Yeah, but saying "this would be so much better if she was raped" is all kinds of messed up. She had a moment of weakness, regretted it and tried to move on. Happens all the time.

 

[Miken Ayers]

HA! I'm glad im not the only one that felt that way...

still I liked sins past. and the monolouge in thunder bolts PROVES it was a brilliant story. even if gwen wasn't the "nice school girl" she portrayed in the classic books. it brought a WHOLE new level to the goblin

How is it that sex outside of marriage is perfectly acceptable as long as comic characters aren't doing it? I remember at the DC boards people were getting all angry, because Hal Jordan had a one night stand. With Marvel's new single Peter you can bet he's gonna be knee deep in unmarried pu...Hey! look at the time!

 

[Styleshift]

Really? Since the 80's? Sad thing is, when you said it, I thought back and yeah, there really hasn't been much good in Spidey post 80's.

Maybe some early 90's stuff. I did like the McFarlane era and then the Eric Larsen era. But, then we got into the Clone Saga and the rest has been a mess: Gathering of the Five, Re-boot, Blow-up MJ, separate with MJ, Sins Past, the Other, un-masking . . . I see this OMD/BND as the topper, and even worse than that other stuff.

And it is not the marriage thing either. I honestly think the stories have been rather blah. I know you're also a longtime fan, and I'm glad you are enjoying it. I just don't feel these stories are any good. Nowhere near what they were in the 60's, 70's, and 80's.

I just think those stories were good and not because of the situation he was in, which is what Marvel seems to think, therefore regressing Pete's situation.

I think really it is all because Spidey is a victim of his own success....
his popularity in the media started growing around that time in the 80s. so these days since he's marvel's flagship character they want to do something big with him....(especially when supes and bats had great stories back than that affected the whole DC.)

which is why we've seen so many failed attempts so far...and stories that mirror it. (the replacement batman/ ben reily. the death of spider-man in the other stronger mirrors the death of superman.)

when you get down to it...like it or not, I believe these guys want to copy the same formula for spidey because they get flamed for trying anything new. now while i seriously hated omd and the ramification dropped on the book because of it. a single spider-man wouldn't have pissed me off if it was done in a plausible way...

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Well, I didn't say they were better than, I said I haven't enjoyed them as much since.....

Frankly, I doubt there will ever be as good a run as those first 200 issues or so. That probably has more to do with the fact that I was a kid reading them, so I naturally have more affection/nostalgia for them. I think anybody's favorite era would be the one they started with.

I did like stuff in between, McFarlane comes to mind, but it never was quite as good.

Oh, I know you didn't say they were as good. I understand you meant.

I would probably extend that run to at least 300. I did like Venom in the beginning. And wasn't the whole Hobgoblin/Gang Wars/Death of Jean DeWolff stuff post 200?

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I think really it is all because Spidey is a victim of his own success....
his popularity in the media started growing around that time in the 80s. so these days since he's marvel's flagship character they want to do something big with him....(especially when supes and bats had great stories back than that affected the whole DC.)

which is why we've seen so many failed attempts so far...and stories that mirror it. (the replacement batman/ ben reily. the death of spider-man in the other stronger mirrors the death of superman.)

when you get down to it...like it or not, I believe these guys want to copy the same formula for spidey because they get flamed for trying anything new. now while i seriously hated omd and the ramification dropped on the book because of it. a single spider-man wouldn't have pissed me off if it was done in a plausible way...

You do have something about that "event" stuff. The "good" stuff we talk about in the 60's, 70's, & 80's weren't event driven (maybe the black costume, though I heard it was to make it easier for artist to draw him). Even the death of Gwen & Goblin weren't written to be "events."

And I do agree the marriage is not the cause of the bad writing. Oh, wait, you edited your post and changed it.

Bottom line, stop big events and give us good stories.

Let me add, you DO need to make one more BIG event. Retcon this deal with the devil. Give us an intelligently written married couple in which one happens to be a superhero.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

I agree... the story would have been AWESOME had Norman just flat out "raped" Gwen...



God... I felt "yucky" just typing that...

I agree completely. It would have kept Gwen a sympathetic character and upped Norman's "bastard" status tenfold.

I have no idea why they decided to have her sleep with Norman "just because"....

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I agree completely. It would have kept Gwen a sympathetic character and upped Norman's "bastard" status tenfold.

I have no idea why they decided to have her sleep with Norman "just because"....

I think the whole idea was bad. It seemed very contrived to get the twins with an accelerated growth (though ironically, in real time, that's how old the twins would have been-or older, being born in the early 70's).

It was bad with Norman as the dad. It would be bad with Pete as the dad. It was just a bad idea, made to "shock."

 

[Miken Ayers]

I agree completely. It would have kept Gwen a sympathetic character and upped Norman's "bastard" status tenfold.

I have no idea why they decided to have her sleep with Norman "just because"....

People are nothing more than animals they just happened to evolve a few steps ahead of the rest of them. Like animals we at times let our hormones get the best of us even we don't truly care for the person. Not saying it happens with everyone, but it does happen often enough.

 

[Themanofbat]

People are nothing more than animals they just happened to evolve a few steps ahead of the rest of them. Like animals we at times let our hormones get the best of us even we don't truly care for the person. Not saying it happens with everyone, but it does happen often enough.

Heh heh... you should have been around here during the Sins Pasts arguments...

We would have made a good team against all the Gwen "purists"...

 

[Styleshift]

And I do agree the marriage is not the cause of the bad writing. Oh, wait, you edited your post and changed it.

sorry...lol. I DO AGREE but i edited it out...because its just that i've said it over and over and over and over again.
everyone pretty much knows where I stand on OMD/BND now. lol.

I'm for the marriage but if they need to take it out to tell good stories and if they had done it in a story that was well written...than BND wouldn't bug me as much....especially with all the allusions to it.

Bottom line, stop events and give us good stories

I agree...it's really sad that the CHARACTER and NOT the writing has been selling the series for so long.

Let me add, you DO need to make one more BIG event. Retcon this deal with the devil. Give us an intelligently written married couple in which one happens to be a superhero.

I agree. It gave Spider-man a new dynamic and set him apart from his Ultimate series and marvel adventures series. this is a comic about an ADULT spidey. like i've said before...Marvel knights (the first 12 issues and a bit of sensational) should have been how ASM is written now a days. =]

 

[ragingdemon155]

I thought the implication was that Norman did rape Gwen; that he hypnotized her into statutory rape. Doesn't Gwen say something like she "magnetically drawn to him"?

She says that he had animal magnetism or something to that extent.

Ha, thinking about that cracks me up everytime. What the hell was Marvel thinking?

 

[ragingdemon155]

I agree completely. It would have kept Gwen a sympathetic character and upped Norman's "bastard" status tenfold.

I have no idea why they decided to have her sleep with Norman "just because"....

It wasn't "Just because"....

Norman is a good looking guy..I mean, look at that lovely hair.

 

[Kevin]

I'd rub my fingers through it...

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

It wasn't "Just because"....

Norman is a good looking guy..I mean, look at that lovely hair.

Heh. I guess her hormones got the best of her.