Comics Amazing Spider-Man #584 -- Character Assassination part 1 (spoilers)

Okay, folks, here’s a summary of the latest issue for those of you who don’t want to read it. Get ready for the origin of Menace:

We first begin with a Prologue from ten years ago in the Hollister household, in which Mr. Hollister, his wife, Lily, and Carlie, are about to have family dinner. Hollister berates Lily for not being able to get into any honors classes and, despite her mother trying to stick up for her and Carlie offering to cheer her up by doing her nails (yes, cause having a manicure really boosts your brain power) Hollister said that Lily didn’t study hard enough and that he doesn’t want to have her marry someone right in order to amount to something. (Origin of a super-villain cliché #1--she feels underappreciated by her father).

We then cut to the present, or rather a flashback, from where Menace was throttling Spider-Man from last issue, this time from her perspective. She thinks that she’s going to do what the Green Goblin, Doctor Octopus and all those other morons never did--beat Spider-Man (Hey! What about Morlun sweetheart? Or Kraven?) She also thinks that it’s better if he’s alive and arrested so that her father will become Mayor, and the best part is that he’ll never know it was her that helped him, that he wouldn’t understand anyway, but that she will and that’s all that matters. (Yes, did I tell you she has daddy issues?)

Anyway, back at Hollister headquarters and after she transforms back to Lily, she calls a pollster to inform him to conduct a new poll, telling him that something huge is going to happen, a game-changer that would favor Hollister. Then after she hangs up, Harry enters and we are now right where we left off last issue--finally.

Lily tries to anticipate what Harry must be thinking, and Harry says he thinks he’s going to be sick. Lily nonchalantly hands him a wastebasket while she changes out of costume (And no, you sick pervs, we don’t see any shots of a naked Lily with conveniently placed shadows to cover her naughty bits). Lily then tells Harry that she knows what he’s thinking, that she never really loved him, that she only dated him because he was the Green Goblin. She tries to reassure him otherwise, when Harry slaps her (thus joining other male comic book characters like Hank Pym, Reed Richards, and even Peter Parker who have backhanded the women they love). Lily, sarcastically saying her feelings are hurt, backhands Harry with enough force that appears to send him across the room (thus proving once and for all who wears the pants in this relationship).

After a brief interruption from a clueless campaign aide that Lily dismisses, Harry tells Lily that she’s sick (no, you think?) and Lily, wide-eyed and intense, asks Harry whether he or his father were sick? She says she doesn’t buy that Norman Osborn was forced to become the Green Goblin, because she’s read-- get this--Harry's Green Goblin Journal, which she found in a hidden compartment in Harry’s closet (Wait? Harry kept a journal too? Is that a requirement for being a Green Goblin now?) She tells Harry that she was, at first, worried about him, that his coming home late and his stress made her think he had fallen off the wagon, not realizing he was under a lot of pressure to get his Coffee Bean franchises up and running. So, out of concern and curiosity, she searched through his closet and found where he kept his journal (Origin of a super-villain cliché #2--she’s a snoop). After saying that the diary was dry reading and full of whining, even for Harry, Harry again tells her that she’s sick and that she needs help. (Yes, Harry. We know!).

Lily, however, goes off about her father not caring for her either, that he would have preferred a boy, but that she’s not complaining (um, you just did). Harry tells her not to bring his father into this, and after Lily tells Harry that Norman already is in this, Harry tells Lily that she didn't become Menace because of his father or hers. Lily says she knows, that she knows she isn’t perfect, that she’s mature enough to make her own decisions, that even though her father loved Carlie more (origin of a super-villain cliché #3--she’s jealous of her best friend who's also like a sister to her) that she doesn’t blame her father at all (Of course not. Which is why this is only the THIRD time you've brought this up.) She then tells Harry that it’s not exactly true that Norman Osborn had nothing to do with her becoming Menace.

Harry finally throws up in the wastebasket, then vows to kill his father. But Lily tells him he’s got the wrong idea--that Norman probably doesn’t even know that she's Menace. She reveals that she found Norman’s secret Goblin lab hidden behind the bookcase. As an aside, she tells Harry that she kissed Peter (as seen in New Ways to Die), and that she did it in order to distract him because he almost found the hidden lab (which even those who didn’t think Lily was Menace at the time pretty much guessed this was exactly what she was really doing). Harry then asks how she found the lab and she tells him that it was because of his journal, and that he "whinned" about how Norman spent most of his time in there. Harry then realizes that’s why she insisted in coming with him when he had to sign the Oscorp Trust Fund documents (and this "revelation" about an earlier event would’ve had more impact if we had actually seen this earlier event in an actual issue).

Lily then tells him that she originally wanted to find incriminating evidence for her father to use to prosecute Norman Osborn so that her father could run for mayor, and that there was more than enough in the lab to indite Norman. However, she accidentally spilled vials of goblin formula with her purse (origin of a super-villain cliché #4--she’s clumsy). Harry realizes that this is what made her crazy, because she absorbed the goblin formula through her skin (super-villain cliché #5--she was unknowingly exposed to experimental chemicals). Lily tells him that she did absorb it while trying to clean it up, and that this formula must have been more advanced because it physically changed her into a goblin. Then she realized she had a much better plan to help her father. Lily insists that she’s not crazy (Lady, you're not fooling anybody, here) and that she’s in complete control unlike Harry was. To prove it, she transforms into Menace right in front of him and says she can change back and forth at will. (Gee, I wonder if this is going to be a problem for her later? It‘s not like it‘s going to get harder and harder for her to change back to normal and that she‘ll be stuck in her Menace form sometime in the future, right?)

Harry then asks why she went after her father and his campaign if she was so sane. Lily tells him that initially she went after Parfrey and Crowne in attempt to force one of them out of the race and allow an opening for her father to run. But after Parfrey was accidentally killed, Lily realized that sympathy was a valuable political tool. As proof, her attacks on her father actually boosted his poll numbers, made him seem tough on crime, and now Hollister is less than two days from becoming mayor.

After transforming back to normal, she shows Harry that she’s wearing his engagement ring and that she accepts his marriage proposal (oh no, she’s not crazy at all *sarcasm*). She tells him that even though they have some issues to work out, that everything will be fine after the election, and they can get married at Gracie Mansion. She leaves by telling Harry that Spider-Man has been arrested and she doesn’t want to miss the news of it, that to make sure Harry locks the door behind him so no one discovers the goblin equipment, and that she loves him and can’t wait to be Mrs. Osborn (no really, SHE’S NOT CRAZY, DAMMIT!)

When then cut to a epilogue where, on Election Day, Harry goes to Norman’s secret goblin lab. There, he grabs a vial of what looks like Goblin formula, puts on a pair of Green Goblin gloves, grabs a gun, and hops on a Goblin Glider. And, just like last issue, the shadow he casts is shaped like the Green Goblin (ooh, more foreshadowing). To be continued.

Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate getting an origin of how Lily became Menace and what her motivation was. But I’m sorry--we really didn’t need a full issue to explain this to us. Especially since many already guessed what Menace was up to before hand, and that Lily and Menace were never compelling characters to begin with. At most, it could have been trimmed down to five or six pages. And it’s pretty obvious that Lily only has a single character arc going for her--that, like Lady Macbeth, she’s going to seduce and manipulate Harry to advance her own goals and drive herself more and more insane in the process. Not to mention she’s just a catalyst for [blackout]Harry to possibly become the Green Goblin once again[/blackout]. The issue is overly padded, all exposition, with oversized panels just to fill up page space. A pretty disappointing interlude to a story that was otherwise getting good.
 
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I have read the issue yet but I did read your spoiler I kind of like the ending of what you said cause it comes off like he is going to kill Norman,but wouldn't it make more sense if he just went to see his dad like nothing was wrong and then just pull a gun on him instead of going after him dressed like the GG if he wants to kill him. damn this super cliche origin since she's female I'm surprised they didn't throw in she was raped just to add to the cliche count. honestly for the most part a lot of men can't write female characters back stories without falling into cliche.
 
I have read the issue yet but I did read your spoiler I kind of like the ending of what you said cause it comes off like he is going to kill Norman,but wouldn't it make more sense if he just went to see his dad like nothing was wrong and then just pull a gun on him instead of going after him dressed like the GG if he wants to kill him. damn this super cliche origin since she's female I'm surprised they didn't throw in she was raped just to add to the cliche count. honestly for the most part a lot of men can't write female characters back stories without falling into cliche.

To be fair, Harry doesn't [BLACKOUT]dress up as the Green Goblin at the end. He just puts on the gloves and takes off on a Goblin Glider, gun in hand. Still, it's pretty damn obvious that's he's heading down the path to become the Green Goblin again.[/BLACKOUT] And I'm kind of wondering whether he's actually going to [blackout]go after Lily and try to cure her with the vial he took, whether he's off to spring out Spider-Man from prison since that would ruin Lily's plans, or both.[/blackout]

And yes, I agree. If Marvel did throw in that last cliche on top of all the other cliche's to Lily's origin as Menace, then it certainly would have been the most uninspired and derivative origin for a super villain in Spider-Man comics thus far.
 
Reading that last panel, i never got the sense that Harry was after his father. I thought like stillanerd said, either for Spidey or Lilly.
 
Please do not make Harry the goblin again, i mean you'd think after everything he'd been through in the past as the goblin he'd learn his lesson right? Right?
 
maybe he'll be a gentler, kinder, good Goblin and he'll run away in the end with Harley Quinn
 
Unless the goblin variation Lily became is significantly stronger than Norman, I don't see why Harry doesn't, or didn't, use the Goblin Gear he created before his death to become a new heroic goblin to (a) really stick it to his Dad, and (b) atone for his past. The Phil Urich Goblin hasn't gone nuts, gained superstrength (but only with the chemical/mask combo, which is clever for maintaining the secret and control) and was able to use the equipment for good without any problems.
 
I read that last page as Harry grabbing some antidote, putting it into a gun, and hoping on the glider to go chase after Lily and shoot her with the antidote.
 
Why would he have to get in Goblin gear to go after Lily, she left as herself to go meet the press, he could just walk after her. And if he were to be on his way to springing Spidey then he would wear a mask and the Extra showed that Spidey was at least in prison for a night. I think he's going after Osborne. Is it dumb? Yeah. But he has just seen another person he loves being curropted by his fathers legacy. I wouldn't expect him to act rationally.

Just a side note, if Harry and Lilly ever break up and Lilly gets with Peter, I think it would be interesting to see them two fighting as Meance and Spidey, then going home to each other.
 
Another great issue, IMO.

The ending has me very curious. I mean, what's going to happen next? Who's Harry going after? His father?

I guess we'll find out in the next issue. :up:
 
Stopped collecting ASM after NWTD. The title just didn't interest me anymore. Decided to pick up this Character Assassination storyline and it's been pretty damn good so far. While I'm not a huge fan of JRJR's work, his style does add a sense of stability , so it's good to have him on the title.

I'm assuming that Harry is going after Spider-man. At least, that's kind of what we're led to believe. I can't think of any other way for Spidey to get out of the position that he is in now.
 
I read that last page as Harry grabbing some antidote, putting it into a gun, and hoping on the glider to go chase after Lily and shoot her with the antidote.
Me too. At first blush it looks like Harry is preparting to juice up himself, but then I thought "Why does Harry need to take MORE GG serum?", which lead to "since when does GG!Harry use guns, anyhow?"

He's aiming to cure her.
 
Not sure his flying to do so on a goblin glider while wearing goblin gloves is the best way to do it though eh
 
Awesome, thanks!


...but really...why put a link in spoiler tags? :p

You're welcome.

And as for putting the link in the spoiler tag, I figured there would be some who wouldn't want to know what the link is and thus see the first seven pages before the issue came out. In other words, I'm a meanie. :woot:
 
all I have to say about that preview is what a B****. if you read it you know who I'm talking about.
 
My only complaint is, why the HELL would the police waste time questioning Spider-Man to find out who he is when vigilantism is a felony, and he's suspected of murder...when they could just unmask him, see who he is, and get on with it?! Wasting time with questioning....seriously?

Aside from that, the art was awesome, and, if this wasn't BND-stuff, I'd probably be intrigued.
 
all I have to say about that preview is what a B****. if you read it you know who I'm talking about.

To be fair, [BLACKOUT]she probably is trying to see who else is involved in the conspiracy so she can get enough evidence to implicate them later[/BLACKOUT]. But if not, it seems as though this story is making all the new supporting cast members that have been introduced in Brand New Day appear to be a bunch of villainous *****e bags.

My only complaint is, why the HELL would the police waste time questioning Spider-Man to find out who he is when vigilantism is a felony, and he's suspected of murder...when they could just unmask him, see who he is, and get on with it?! Wasting time with questioning....seriously?

Apparently, only Federal law enforcement agents are allowed to unmask superheroes who commit crimes under the SHRA. In other words, it's a convenient excuse to keep Spidey's identity secret in spite of all common sense. Not to mention it's another fine example of what happens when you don't actually have the SHRA written down for both readers and writers to follow and not contradict with other titles.
 
Makes complete sense for only federal agents to be allowed to unmask a superhero. The SHRA is a federal law, and the unmasking by anyone (officer of the law or not) could lead to the identity being leaked and every villain they ever put away killing their family (i.e. exactly why Aunt May got shot and why Stark was the only person in the world who was supposed to know the ID's of heroes).

An excuse my arse. As fictional as all this is of course, the gist of the SHRA is supposed to protect the heroes and the people. The people by having accountability on their side, the heroes by being able to take responsibility but remain as safe as when they were complete unknowns operating outside the law. The nitty gritty of Starks design of the bill and subsequent law (and therefore the nitty gritty of the writers and editors design in trying to hash it out to make it work for all the marvel line in a semi-fluid way) would surely have encompassed regulations and punishable acts that prevent the public excuse of "Oh we saw spidey knocked out one day so thought **** it, lets have a look".
 
Makes complete sense for only federal agents to be allowed to unmask a superhero. The SHRA is a federal law, and the unmasking by anyone (officer of the law or not) could lead to the identity being leaked and every villain they ever put away killing their family (i.e. exactly why Aunt May got shot and why Stark was the only person in the world who was supposed to know the ID's of heroes).

While that is a valid reason why the feds would unmask superheroes in the context of the Marvel Universe, there's a bit more to it. According to one of the stories Amazing Spider-Man: Brand New Day Extra #1 (which someone has put scans up in this thread I believe) it states that heroes cannot be unmasked without the proper authority and without probable cause. Now the proper authority is, of course, are the feds. But, if it's imperative that the heroes real identity must be exposed in order prosecute him for a crime, then he can be unmasked. In the same story, this is what Spidey has to face when, as he's undergoing his hearing with regards to being suspected of the STK serial murders, another attorney files a motion that, because Spider-Man is being sued by his client, he must unmask for him to pay any compensation. If it was solely about protecting the hero's loved ones from reprisals, then this issue wouldn't even have come up.

An excuse my arse. As fictional as all this is of course, the gist of the SHRA is supposed to protect the heroes and the people. The people by having accountability on their side, the heroes by being able to take responsibility but remain as safe as when they were complete unknowns operating outside the law. The nitty gritty of Starks design of the bill and subsequent law (and therefore the nitty gritty of the writers and editors design in trying to hash it out to make it work for all the marvel line in a semi-fluid way) would surely have encompassed regulations and punishable acts that prevent the public excuse of "Oh we saw spidey knocked out one day so thought **** it, lets have a look".

It is an excuse in this sense--since obviously Marvel doesn't want to have Spider-Man's secret identity be exposed as last time, they have to come up with conveinant ways in their stories to make it so no other character knows who he is. Thus, we learn that somehow, Spider-Man secret identity has been erased from every person on the planet, even from those who knew who he was before the unmasking, and furthermore that same thing also prevents people from logically concluding Peter and Spider-Man are one and the same (as implied by Dan Slott). Having it be known that superheroes cannot be unmasked by local or state law enforcement officals, and thus making Spider-Man's identity safe in the story, is another example of this.

Also, it still doesn't change the fact that, with regards to the SHRA, Marvel apparently never wrote down a bare bones outline of what it can and cannot do. Sure, the gist of it is that superheros have to register with the government, but there were no real specifics. Did this mean anyone with super powers? Any one who wore a costume? Does mean people like the Punisher, who doesn't have any superpowers, has to register because he wears body armor with a stylized skull across his chest? In Civil War: Frontline, Firestar was allowed to retire, but in Ms. Marvel, IIRC, Hobie Brown, who had retired from being the Prowler, was still arrested as a superhero. In New Avengers, Luke Cage was sitting in his house while Federal Agents waited outside his home until the law passed, and then busted in to try and arrest him. Does that mean the fourth admendment doesn't apply to superheroes? That they can take him into custody even though he's not doing any "superhero" activity?

This isn't about trying to be nitpicky, but rather more about consistantcy between the writers of Marvel's various comics and a better understanding of SHRA by the readers of those comics. Obviously, you don't want to come up with a gigantic 1,000 page plus document like the stimulus bill, but rather a simple outline of bulletin points for the writers would suffice. That way, they would avoid confussion, inconsistency, and not make it look like they're just making it up as they go along.
 
Wow I finally read 586 and I'm trying to figure out if
Lily Hollister is a crazy ***** from the Goblin serum or if that was her character before and we just never saw it. any ways now that I saw the final page now I get the vibe it was meant to give off. I don't get why she can transform into a goblin and has enough strength to hit Harry like that not transformed. I didn't like how Harry barely got to say 2 words this entire issue but for anyone who's argued with their girlfriend thats usually how it goes.
 
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I'd like to see Harry fight Lilly and Harry say something like "Not you, not my father. I am the goblin." I think that'd be so cool.
 
Makes complete sense for only federal agents to be allowed to unmask a superhero. The SHRA is a federal law, and the unmasking by anyone (officer of the law or not) could lead to the identity being leaked and every villain they ever put away killing their family (i.e. exactly why Aunt May got shot and why Stark was the only person in the world who was supposed to know the ID's of heroes).

Actually it makes no sense at all. Federal agents have no jurisdiction to act within states. They can only investigate and take action on crimes involving the crossing of state lines or crimes enacted on federal property.

The SHRA makes little sense. As stillanerd brought up, does it apply to anyone wearing a costume? What about criminals? And its a state law that no one can legally be running the streets in a mask. So the cops would be within the law by unmasking Spidey or anyone other masked person.

An excuse my arse. As fictional as all this is of course, the gist of the SHRA is supposed to protect the heroes and the people. The people by having accountability on their side, the heroes by being able to take responsibility but remain as safe as when they were complete unknowns operating outside the law.

And why would the feds want to protect people who are operating outside the law? Again without reliable corroboration the actions of these vigilantes would for the most part be ruled inadmissable in courts anyway. The heroes can certainly bring the villains in, but the villains would have to be charged with crimes for which there's witnesses and evidence. Not for having a fight with a a self-described superhero.


The nitty gritty of Starks design of the bill and subsequent law (and therefore the nitty gritty of the writers and editors design in trying to hash it out to make it work for all the marvel line in a semi-fluid way) would surely have encompassed regulations and punishable acts that prevent the public excuse of "Oh we saw spidey knocked out one day so thought **** it, lets have a look".

Which again makes no sense, since they are infact treating Spidey as though he were a criminal. Why would they give a criminal the right to maintain anonymity? I seriously doubt any voters would find such a thing kosher. And the government, federal and state all work for the tax payers. They can't even arrest him and charge him if they don't know who he is. How can the police prove he was even the same person they arrested?
As with most of Marvel's decisions of late none of this was very well thought out.
 

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