Avengers 1-4 vs The Dark Knight Trilogy

[EnDz0n3]

Also, I think it's fair to say TDKR became pretty iconic in its own right. I was just reading an article about how Bane masks are selling like crazy right now. We're 8 years out from the movie at this point. That's saying something.

Bane Mask Business Booms Amid Pandemic

Harley Quinn has been a popular go-to costume for women for Halloween. Doesn't really tell me anything about her movies' quality.

 

[Captain Tired]

Harley Quinn has been a popular go-to costume for women for Halloween. Doesn't really tell me anything about her movies' quality.

The post you're responding to isn't arguing for TDKR's quality (though it quite obviously is a quality movie), it's arguing for its iconography.

 

[EnDz0n3]

The post you're responding to isn't arguing for TDKR's quality (though it quite obviously is a quality movie), it's arguing for its iconography.

I got that thanks. Still doesn't tell me if his movie was good or not, the actual topic of the thread.

And if you read thru the thread a good number of people happen to think it's the worst of that trilogy. Comparable to AOU. So no it isn't "obviously a quality movie."

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I mean it's a little easier when you've had countless movies, each based on comic-book properties with their own built-in fanbases, leading up to this one epic battle royale of superhero movies. TDKT, on the other hand, came right out of the blue and with the very poor stink of Batman & Robin to still shake off. It isn't quite comparable with the success of the original Star Wars trilogy, but it's still a damn sight closer than the Avengers quadrilogy in question. Also I'd say TDKR was also a cultural phenomena, coming off the back of TDK.

There's also the matter of Batman Begins and The Dark Knight (and arguably TDKR), each being considered game changers with respects to the comic book genre as a whole. The four Avengers movies might also be considered game changers, but if they are, it's surely only with respects to the MCU itself, and not the wider comic-book movie genre.

I should clarify, TDKR was a cultural phenomenon, coming off the back of TDK, but if anything, I think that was the narrative on the film, that everyone was hyped for it, coming off TDK and the Joker, and when people finally saw it....they liked it, but it didn't set the world on fire.

I'd say TDKR is akin to AOU in that sense.

And yeah, it's "easier" for Infinity War and Endgame to bank on the character development, goodwill, and buildup of the other films, but this isn't about being a fair or equal comparison. And besides, it's not like the reception and impact of those two films was a gimme. Just look at how Star Wars squandered everything it had going for it.

 

[WhoMani]

I prefer The Dark Knight trilogy as I thought Bruce Wayne is a well developed character than most of the Avengers (with the exception of Iron Man and Captain America) and that I connected more with his story more. Also I watch The Dark Knight more times than I have with any Avengers movie. But I don't begrudge anyone who prefers Avengers 1-4 as there is a lot of great stuff in those movies.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Guys, cut the condescension. Debate the movie civilly. If you can't, post somewhere else.

Only warning I am giving.

 

[BatLobster]

I guess it just depends on the circles we travel in. If you're not really a big Marvel fan, and I'm not sure if you are or not, as I've only really seen you in Batman & Star Wars threads and forums, so if you're not invested, then maybe you aren't seeing all the cross overs. Thanos has been in cartoons like the Simpsons, think a song by Eminem, just off the top of my head?

But in the end, I don't think there's really a way to "gauge" pop culture staying power and quotability with some of these characters.

Fair enough! The Simpsons is always a good enough gauge of pop culture relevance in my book and I missed Thanos' appearance there. I have to concede on that. I think it remains to be seen if Thanos will get referenced like that 8 years from now, but you raise some solid points here.

And I'd say you're correct about my Marvel fan-level. Like I said, I've seen all the movies in theaters except one, but I also don't own any of them. So I'm not as invested. Full transparency there.

I should clarify, TDKR was a cultural phenomenon, coming off the back of TDK, but if anything, I think that was the narrative on the film, that everyone was hyped for it, coming off TDK and the Joker, and when people finally saw it....they liked it, but it didn't set the world on fire.

I'd say TDKR is akin to AOU in that sense.

And yeah, it's "easier" for Infinity War and Endgame to bank on the character development, goodwill, and buildup of the other films, but this isn't about being a fair or equal comparison. And besides, it's not like the reception and impact of those two films was a gimme. Just look at how Star Wars squandered everything it had going for it.

I would agree about its reception at the time, but from what I've observed TDKR has enjoyed a slow burn increase in acceptance over the years. Maybe part of that is just people getting more nostalgic for the trilogy with time and BvS and JL making people appreciate it more, but I think TDKR is more like a Return of the Jedi than Age of Ultron. AoU (a movie I actually kind of enjoyed) almost feels a bit like a filler chapter in the Avengers films. TDKR, even while generally perceived as the most flawed or the weakest of the trilogy, still feels like it offers an essential conclusion to the story that started with Batman Begins. I think the ROTJ analogy fits pretty well. Both films have some of the highest highs and lowest lows of their respective trilogies IMO.

I think another thing to keep in mind with that film is it had certain things in it that infuriated Batman fans- IE Batman retiring (twice), giving him a happy ending, etc. that had virtually nothing to do with the general audience's reaction to the film. I think it was way more popular with the general audience than it was the hardcore fan community. And it still ended up grossing the most of the trilogy, even with the horrific Aurora tragedy casting a shadow over its opening weekend. I also think it's important to remember that it had a huge hurdle to overcome with Ledger's passing. His Joker instantly became THE most iconic thing in the franchise, and they couldn't bring him back. There was almost no way his absence wouldn't be felt, but I think the movie makes a strong case for itself by introducing a villain that's almost the polar opposite and just having its own vibe entirely.

 

[Gothamsknight]

My hype for TDKR was through the roof and I was blown away. I went into knowing that with how much of a masterpiece TDK was, topping it was gonna be hard. For me, I got the best conclusion to a comic book movie franchise ever. TDKR is my least fave of the trilogy, but i still think its amazing.

 

[BatLobster]

My hype for TDKR was through the roof and I was blown away. I went into knowing that with how much of a masterpiece TDK was, topping it was gonna be hard. For me, I got the best conclusion to a comic book movie franchise ever. TDKR is my least fave of the trilogy, but i still think its amazing.

The moment Alfred sees Bruce at the end is a moment I'll never forget. It was one of the most purely joyful and triumphant moments I've ever experienced in a movie theater, and the way the audience erupted in cheers for that still gives me chills to think about. That's just how invested the audience was in the whole journey of the trilogy, and that's how much everyone bought into the possibility that he might really stay dead.

I know a lot of people wanted him to be dead or for it to be ambiguous, but I think when you step back and realize that the entire film (and trilogy) is really about a broken person rediscovering the will to live, it's just an amazing and deeply satisfying end to the story to see Bruce Wayne smiling and happy for a change, and for Alfred to get that closure and have peace too. It's just beautiful.

 

[Gothamsknight]

The moment Alfred sees Bruce at the end is a moment I'll never forget. It was one of the most purely joyful and triumphant moments I've ever experienced in a movie theater, and the way the audience erupted in cheers for that still gives me chills to think about. That's just how invested the audience was in the whole journey of the trilogy, and that's how much everyone bought into the possibility that he might really stay dead.

I know a lot of people wanted him to be dead or for it to be ambiguous, but I think when you step back and realize that the entire film (and trilogy) is really about a broken person rediscovering the will to live, it's just an amazing and deeply satisfying end to the story to see Bruce Wayne smiling and happy for a change, and for Alfred to get that closure and have peace too. It's just beautiful.

Absolutely, my friend. I couldn't agree more. I also still get chills at the scene of Bruce climbing out o the prison. just the idea of how Batman Begins started with Bruce falling and then he climbs out in TDKR is just fantastic symbolism.

 

[BatLobster]

Absolutely, my friend. I couldn't agree more. I also still get chills at the scene of Bruce climbing out o the prison. just the idea of how Batman Begins started with Bruce falling and then he climbs out in TDKR is just fantastic symbolism.

Same. The climb, with the hypnotic chanting, gorgeous IMAX cinematography, and Zimmer's rousing score, is fullstop one of the greatest CBM scenes of all time IMO. These superhero movies are all supposed to offer us inspiration and fill us with a sense of "I want to be the best version of myself", right?

I can probably think of no scene that better encapsulates that. And it's no capes, no explosions. Just a dude climbing out of a hole. Incredible.

 

[Erzengel]

And I'd say you're correct about my Marvel fan-level. Like I said, I've seen all the movies in theaters except one, but I also don't own any of them. So I'm not as invested. Full transparency there.

The moment Alfred sees Bruce at the end is a moment I'll never forget. It was one of the most purely joyful and triumphant moments I've ever experienced in a movie theater, and the way the audience erupted in cheers for that still gives me chills to think about. That's just how invested the audience was in the whole journey of the trilogy, and that's how much everyone bought into the possibility that he might really stay dead.

My theater was more reserved for TDKR. There may have been some applauding at the end. But I don't really remember or maybe if there was I would have.

But I've haven't seen reaction like during Endgame since Yoda came out in Attack of the Clones and honestly Endgame reaction videos put my experience during ATOC to shame.

So you may not be aware of all these audience reaction videos but......

South India


Guessing somewhere in America


Another video


Another opening night video


Still another video possibly foreign


I hope to have another theater experience like this.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Same. The climb, with the hypnotic chanting, gorgeous IMAX cinematography, and Zimmer's rousing score, is fullstop one of the greatest CBM scenes of all time IMO. These superhero movies are all supposed to offer us inspiration and fill us with a sense of "I want to be the best version of myself", right?

I can probably think of no scene that better encapsulates that. And it's no capes, no explosions. Just a dude climbing out of a hole. Incredible.

agreed with every point. 110%!

 

[BatLobster]

@Erzengel

Actually I have seen some of those reactions posted by people on FB. That's really cool. I love to see audiences getting lost in an experience like that and it really makes me long to go back to the movie theater.

I know some people don't like that, maybe it's a cultural thing, but I think that communal aspect of the moviegoing process is awesome and it's something entirely different than watching a movie on your couch at home. I will definitely say that the first Avengers and Endgame felt like rock concerts with how loud the audience was when I saw them. And even though they're not necessarily my favorite movies, the energy of the crowd definitely adds to the experience and makes it a lot of fun.

 

[Erzengel]

@BatLobster

I just wanted to make sure you were aware. There is a reason these people are so invested in these movies and their reactions shows. Seeing Cap pick up mjolnir and the return of the heroes, I'd like to think it's because they've been along for most of the ride.

 

[The Joker]

I got that thanks. Still doesn't tell me if his movie was good or not, the actual topic of the thread.

And if you read thru the thread a good number of people happen to think it's the worst of that trilogy. Comparable to AOU. So no it isn't "obviously a quality movie."

Ok so what is your criteria that tells you if a movie is good or not? Box office? TDKR made over a billion. Critical reaction? Its got 87% on RT and 78 on Metacritic (higher than any Avengers movie). Audience scores? Its got a 90% audience score on RT and an 8.2/10 on Metacritic (again higher than most Avengers movies).

You mentioned what some people in this thread think about TDKR, so you obviously put some stock into the opinions of a handful of people on this forum as criteria of a movie's quality for some inexplicable reason. So take a look at this thread; Your Top 10 CBMs of the Decade (So Far)

The majority of people listed TDKR as one of their top 10 CBM's of the decade. So I'm not sure what else there is that can indicate to you its a quality movie.

 

[BatLobster]

@The Joker

Just curious, can you pinpoint around when you had a bit of a change of heart on the film? Was it after seeing BvS? We had some epic debates about it back in the day, but as of late you definitely seem to have warmed to it a bit, or at least seem to accept it a bit more than you did previously. Maybe just the initial disappointment has worn off a bit?

In any case, I'm glad to see that you've come around to it a bit, cause I know how much you love the first two films and especially TDK.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I can tell ya I never had that ''YEAH'' blood pumping moment watching TDKR. But Cap lifting Mjolnir? The portals? Goosebumps. Iron Man dying? Tears. The moments mentioned in above posts from TDKR just didn't do anything for me. I found myself not engrossed in the story and questioning the decisions like, the whole movie. Which was not what I expected. TDK made my blood pump. I was engaged. I loved it. I was ready to feel that. But, it just never got me going.

 

[Awest66]

I can tell ya I never had that ''YEAH'' blood pumping moment watching TDKR. But Cap lifting Mjolnir? The portals? Goosebumps. Iron Man dying? Tears. The moments mentioned in above posts from TDKR just didn't do anything for me. I found myself not engrossed in the story and questioning the decisions like, the whole movie. Which was not what I expected. TDK made my blood pump. I was engaged. I loved it. I was ready to feel that. But, it just never got me going.

I don"t know about you but the scene where Bruce finally makes the jump out of the pit is one of the best scenes in any superhero movie ever made.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I don"t know about you but the scene where Bruce finally makes the jump out of the pit is one of the best scenes in any superhero movie ever made.

To each his own. The scene honestly didn't do anything for me

 

[Awest66]

To each his own. The scene honestly didn't do anything for me

The entirety of Age of Ultron did nothing for me.

 

[The Joker]

@The Joker

Just curious, can you pinpoint around when you had a bit of a change of heart on the film? Was it after seeing BvS? We had some epic debates about it back in the day, but as of late you definitely seem to have warmed to it a bit, or at least seem to accept it a bit more than you did previously. Maybe just the initial disappointment has worn off a bit?

In any case, I'm glad to see that you've come around to it a bit, cause I know how much you love the first two films and especially TDK.

Oh no, man, my overall stance on TDKR has not really changed. I still think that it falls short compared to BB and TDK, but its not the dumpster fire you see some people accuse it of being. I still enjoy it a lot, and its a decent end to the Nolan trilogy. There's plenty for me to enjoy in it. All those debates we had back then about the necessity of bringing back the LOS and all that, those were good times, and I still stand by them.

I still believe had Heath not passed away we'd have gotten a different and probably better movie than we did. When Heath's sister said in that interview a couple of years ago that he was already planning on an encore performance with the Joker;

“He was so proud of what he had done in Batman. And I know he had plans for another Batman. He loved working with Chris Nolan and Christian Bale and Gary Oldman. He just had the best time ever doing that film."

Heath Ledger's sister recalls the late actor's excitement over returning to The Joker

I think he and Nolan did have some discussions about a possible direction for the third movie that involved Joker. But at the end of the day we got TDKR, and its still a solid movie, IMO, even though it falls short of its predecessors.

 

[Spider-Fan]

The entirety of Age of Ultron did nothing for me.

Again, to each his own. I liked Age of Ultron more than I did TDKR. I enjoyed things like watching the floating city and such more than I did the rehashed end chase McGuffin that can end Gotham we got in TDKR. But, no one has to agree with me. It's just how I feel.

 

[Filmfreak]

I don"t know about you but the scene where Bruce finally makes the jump out of the pit is one of the best scenes in any superhero movie ever made.

There were three scenes I had the goosebumbs during the movie. One was Batman's first appearance after the stock exchange hit, the other one was indeed the pit jump and the last one was the reveal that Bruce is alive in Florence.

No matter how many issues the movie might have or how many other films in the genre I like nothing has excited me as much in a superhero movie ever since.

 

[Erzengel]

AOU isn't my favorite out of the 4 but love these scenes.

And