Birds of Prey BoP Box Office Thread

[I Am The Knight]

That is the one thing I always raised an eyebrow at regarding how people idolized her when she was an accessory to mass murder repeatedly.

I think people mostly idolize the TAS version we all grew up with, where things are more innocent (animated TV show for kids) and Joker are Harley are more like bank robbers than full on psychos. I don't read modern comics but I assume the Harley in those is way worse

 

[jmc]

My take on Harley is that she fell in love with a psychopath that she KNEW was a psychopath.
Sure, Joker could've given her all this sympathetic BS, but Harley knew Joker was a murderer, she knew he had no qualms about torturing people. And she actively decided to join him in his plans, while he's out there planning to kill Batman, she's actively helping him. She's constantly helps him in his ****ed up plans without showing any sort of hesitation about it.That's the way it's been shown in the DCAU, that's the way it's been shown in the Arkham games, that's the way it's been shown in the comics. The only version where this isn't the case is the Sean Murphy version.
I've never really been able to see her as just a victim, because I honestly feel she isn't. You can empathize with her the same way you can with other villains, but she really a terrible person, much like Riddler, or Scarecrow, or Black Mask, etc.

And I feel there's something legitimately interesting there as a character, but when shown in this over the top wacky ways in which she's a lead and this super fighter even though that makes no sense whatsoever I feel it takes away more than it adds. I'd much prefer to read or watch a much more grounded version of Harley that's more critical of her but is still sympathetic to an extent.

One thing I read of her always struck a chord with me, and I can't for the life of me remember which comic it was, but it was Harley and Black Canary fighting each other and mid-way through the fight Canary starts to throw up. Harley finds out Canary is pregnant and instead of continuing to fight she basically reverts to her former self and has an open discussion with Dinah about her situation, and revealing how she herself was pregnant once, and that she left Gotham for an entire year to go home to her sisters to have the baby because she knew if Joker found out he would probably kill the child. What sticks out to me is that she knows she's in a terrible situation, what she's doing is wrong, but because off some type of OCD or attachment disorder she can't help but stay. Her hands are not entirely clean for sure, at a certain point you can't play the victim card any longer, but the reason she got there is someone saw those mental weaknesses and exploited them.

 

[Invader Joker]

I think people mostly idolize the TAS version we all grew up with, where things are more innocent (animated TV show for kids) and Joker are Harley are more like bank robbers than full on psychos. I don't read modern comics but I assume the Harley in those is way worse

In the TAS version it's literally canon that she brainwashed a little kid along with Joker and did so with so with a smile on her face.
I'm pretty sure that in TAS Joker is also a murderer, they weren't allowed to show any of it but it's kinda clear he is, he's constantly kidnapping and threatening people. And setting up death traps.

 

[Invader Joker]

One thing I read of her always struck a chord with me, and I can't for the life of me remember which comic it was, but it was Harley and Black Canary fighting each other and mid-way through the fight Canary starts to throw up. Harley finds out Canary is pregnant and instead of continuing to fight she basically reverts to her former self and has an open discussion with Dinah about her situation, and revealing how she herself was pregnant once, and that she left Gotham for an entire year to go home to her sisters to have the baby because she knew if Joker found out he would probably kill the child. What sticks out to me is that she knows she's in a terrible situation, what she's doing is wrong, but because off some type of OCD or attachment disorder she can't help but stay. Her hands are not entirely clean for sure, at a certain point you can't play the victim card any longer, but the reason she got there is someone saw those mental weaknesses and exploited them.

It's Injustice.
I kinda like the way she was handled there but even there I feel she was given waytoo much forgiveness being that she was also an accomplice for the destruction of an entire city and the murder of a pregnant woman along with a bunch of other crimes. Although it kinda came more organically because everyone in those comics was beaten through the ringer, I remember reading it and there was a point where it was really depressing because Batman had lost practically everybody in a way that he now had to rely on this psychopath, it was kinda somber in a way.

 

[I Am The Knight]

In the TAS version it's literally canon that she brainwashed a little kid along with Joker and did so with so with a smile on her face.
I'm pretty sure that in TAS Joker is also a murderer, they weren't allowed to show any of it but it's kinda clear he is, he's constantly kidnapping and threatening people. And setting up death traps.

Yeah, I know. I'm talking about presentation and how that influences people's perception of a character.

And I don't know if ROTJ was as widely seen as TAS.

 

[Invader Joker]

I think it's mostly a waste from a character-driven perspective.
I mean, you have this concept: Young female attractive psychiatrist that falls in love with Joker, the most evil man alive, and becomes his sidekick and devoted girlfriend.
It raises the question: What kind of woman would do that?
And the answer that writers have decided to give that question for the last 10 years is "Well, a looney toones female empowerment symbol, of course!"
There's much more interesting stories you could tell.

 

[Yowza]

I had an in-depth reply to the criticism in terms of why allow Harley to do what she can do question but looked at the title of this thread and just isn't worth responding to as there'll be continuing replies about box office and all discussion pertaining to this will be forgotten about.

 

[jmc]

You should post your thoughts.

 

[Yowza]

You should post your thoughts.

I can copy and paste what I had down it turned into a write-up of sorts but here it is...



Why can Harley do what she's able to do?
Watchmen's hyper-realist approach imposing the impractical notion of a Superhero (parodying various tropes that come with it) into a practical realistic setting I see as an artistic portrayal of the unreal imposed upon the real. Ultimately to serve the narrative, various characters are able to do what they're able to do in a way that makes sense in a mind over matter kind of way even though of course in reality what they do with the power sets they have would be sure to fail eventually...

The way I see it is Gotham City is best represented from an artistic standpoint as a fantasy realm evoking a certain architectual/artistic vibe as summed up here as ranging from Art Deco to Dystopian: The Gothamist Movement | Hazlitt

Within this fictional playground, I think Batman stories best work without trying to be too realistic like the Nolan films but moreso utilizing a logic or standard that simply mirrors a realistic setting. In terms of the mundane/everyday life in Gotham, realism seemingly holds up. Other elements such as a writer trying to assert what characters should be capable of what from a realistic perspective just wouldn't work for anyone including Batman whose merely human though. If this were the case, Batman would be dead, arrested, or forced to flee fairly quickly even if some success initially... A writer trying to assert otherwise just strains my patience too much as a viewer or a reader.

Harley is able to do what she is able to do because it's mind over matter. The logic/standard is the mundane everyday citizen suddenly going off track with things suddenly spiraling out of control where their reality becomes part of this seemingly realistically modeled fantasy realm of Gotham City is the story logic in a narrative that recurs over and over again. Of course, in real life abilities are contained by physical limitations but in Gotham this is a narrative often encountered as I found summed up here:

https://www.quora.com/Which-is-more...ple-Starling-City-Central-City-or-Gotham-City
Which is more dangerous for common people: Starling City, Central City, or Gotham?Gotham city is the most dangerous definitely. Not because of the super vilains nor because of the constant uprising crime rates. But because of the tendency to unstable mentality and unrecognized mental diseases in everyday citizens waiting to burst out in the most random moment. I say this because almost half of the gotham villains were normal people that SNAPPED sort to say due to certain event or just plain fallout of unnerving hidden emotions in everyday routines......

I found the following art that echoes the notions pertaining to the everyday realism of Gotham amplified into perhaps what might be considered amplified realism into a fantastical state: Letter to Batman – The Making Of:
19th Century Painting "Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks" by Russian realist Ila Repin

Digital Fan Rendering:

Hyperreality:

Hyperreality - Wikipedia
Hyperreality, in semiotics and postmodernism, is an inability of consciousness to distinguish reality from a simulation of reality, especially in technologically advanced postmodern societies.[1] Hyperreality is seen as a condition in which what is real and what is fiction are seamlessly blended together so that there is no clear distinction between where one ends and the other begins.[2] It allows the co-mingling of physical reality with virtual reality (VR) and human intelligence with artificial intelligence (AI).[2]

Individuals may find themselves, for different reasons, more in tune or involved with the hyperreal world and less with the physical real world.

The above quote applied to fiction reminds me moreso of the movie the Matrix but could be applied to the comic reality that is Gotham or the world pertaining to Watchmen.

A breakdown of the controlled structured life of an average citizen of Gotham spiraling into a delusion allows the impossible to suddenly become possible as just another narrative thread of the typical type of hero that must try and prevent the typical type of villain from taking over the city in this fantastical realm that is Gotham.

 

[Jonwo]

Walter Hamada probably did contribute to bringing the movie to where it is now by bringing in Stahelski to improve the action and maybe pacing and other minor issues basically any work in progress movie has or can have, but the movie wasn't "completely reshaped" at all.

I think Stahelski should get a crack directing a DC film.

I'll be seeing this sometime next weekend (couldn't make time for it this weekend), but the numbers are disappointed. You win some, you lose some.

That's the best attitude to have when a film doesn't do well. Not every studio is as consistent as Pixar or Marvel. WB can learn from this and in the wider slate of 2020, it'll seen as be a blip rather than a disaster.

 

[Boom]

I will say, it takes some cojones to make a film like this. Obviously this type of BO performance lessens the likelihood of seeing more movies like it, but I'm glad we got it.

 

[Sithborg]

I think it's mostly a waste from a character-driven perspective.
I mean, you have this concept: Young female attractive psychiatrist that falls in love with Joker, the most evil man alive, and becomes his sidekick and devoted girlfriend.
It raises the question: What kind of woman would do that?
And the answer that writers have decided to give that question for the last 10 years is "Well, a looney toones female empowerment symbol, of course!"
There's much more interesting stories you could tell.

That's actually not the narrative they've gone with. A persistent bit that keeps resurfacing in the lore is that she did not get her phd or license legitimitaly. Which undercuts her whole reason to be around Joker to begin with. And then there is the romanticization of the pairing, which is disturbing, especially in SS.

Luckily, there has been push back against that, making her smart again. And embracing the story that even intelligent people can be fooled by a charming person and stuck in a cycle of abuse.

 

[Madam-Shogun]

Harley Quinn CAN be a compelling character, but that's not what they want apparently. I also think that the fear of the dreaded male gaze is over blown.

 

[Yowza]

The Dark Knight Saves Gotham City: Limited Edition Art:
The Dark Knight Saves Gotham City - Limited Edition Art - Thomas Kinkade Galleries of New York, New Jersey & Connecticut

 

[jmc]

I will say, it takes some cojones to make a film like this. Obviously this type of BO performance lessens the likelihood of seeing more movies like it, but I'm glad we got it.

It was cheap relative to most films of its kind, so the best thing for WB is that whatever money they lose is not going to be much. But the thing to take away from this that they have to learn is that if they want to make a niche movie it's not going to make superhero money.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Such a shame this isnt doing better, it certainly deserves bigger numbers than what SS got. Hopefully good word of mouth gives it good legs.

Not sure why they needed as big of a budget as they got....but hopefully this ends up being around $550/600 WW which shouldnt be a bad thing.

 

[Sithborg]

Such a shame this isnt doing better, it certainly deserves bigger numbers than what SS got. Hopefully good word of mouth gives it good legs.

Not sure why they needed as big of a budget as they got....but hopefully this ends up being around $550/600 WW which shouldnt be a bad thing.

There is a good amount of CGI. Robbie is in a position to get a good paycheck. In the end, the reported budget is only what they want us to think it is, whether the actual cost is higher or lower, we won't really know.

 

[Fincher]

I think the story of Quinzel becoming Harley could be cool to see, but for me, the main usefulness of her one-sided relationship with Joker is setup for the payoff of her leaving him and ending up with Ivy. Her as his sidekick can be good (I'm a fan of Arkham City Harley in particular), but her doting on him while he disregards her is more frustrating to me than anything.

 

[TheScarecrow]

Not sure why they needed as big of a budget as they got....but hopefully this ends up being around $550/600 WW which shouldnt be a bad thing.

If this has standard holds it will be lucky to reach $200M WW. Standard holds would see it go 2.5 or 3 x as a multiplier, aking its most likely range

Dom - $83.5M to $100.5M

Int - $120M to $144M

WW - $203M to $244.5M

Though some are speculating it won't hit $200M worldwide.

 

[Invader Joker]

I can copy and paste what I had down it turned into a write-up of sorts but here it is...



Why can Harley do what she's able to do?
Watchmen's hyper-realist approach imposing the impractical notion of a Superhero (parodying various tropes that come with it) into a practical realistic setting I see as an artistic portrayal of the unreal imposed upon the real. Ultimately to serve the narrative, various characters are able to do what they're able to do in a way that makes sense in a mind over matter kind of way even though of course in reality what they do with the power sets they have would be sure to fail eventually...

The way I see it is Gotham City is best represented from an artistic standpoint as a fantasy realm evoking a certain architectual/artistic vibe as summed up here as ranging from Art Deco to Dystopian: The Gothamist Movement | Hazlitt

Within this fictional playground, I think Batman stories best work without trying to be too realistic like the Nolan films but moreso utilizing a logic or standard that simply mirrors a realistic setting. In terms of the mundane/everyday life in Gotham, realism seemingly holds up. Other elements such as a writer trying to assert what characters should be capable of what from a realistic perspective just wouldn't work for anyone including Batman whose merely human though. If this were the case, Batman would be dead, arrested, or forced to flee fairly quickly even if some success initially... A writer trying to assert otherwise just strains my patience too much as a viewer or a reader.

Harley is able to do what she is able to do because it's mind over matter. The logic/standard is the mundane everyday citizen suddenly going off track with things suddenly spiraling out of control where their reality becomes part of this seemingly realistically modeled fantasy realm of Gotham City is the story logic in a narrative that recurs over and over again. Of course, in real life abilities are contained by physical limitations but in Gotham this is a narrative often encountered as I found summed up here:

I found the following art that echoes the notions pertaining to the everyday realism of Gotham amplified into perhaps what might be considered amplified realism into a fantastical state: Letter to Batman – The Making Of:
19th Century Painting "Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks" by Russian realist Ila Repin

Digital Fan Rendering:

Hyperreality:


The above quote applied to fiction reminds me moreso of the movie the Matrix but could be applied to the comic reality that is Gotham or the world pertaining to Watchmen.

A breakdown of the controlled structured life of an average citizen of Gotham spiraling into a delusion allows the impossible to suddenly become possible as just another narrative thread of the typical type of hero that must try and prevent the typical type of villain from taking over the city in this fantastical realm that is Gotham.

I'm not talking about realism, I'm talking about logic, the internal logic of a story and of a universe, which I think it's important because it's what ultimately lets you see that there are consequences and there are certain parameters and rules.

Batman being one of the best fighters in the world... that makes sense, he trained for 18 years to become "peak human potential"
The Robins being excellent fighters, again, makes sense, they trained under Batman.
Cassandra... makes sense, she trained under Lady Shiva and David Cain and under Batman.
Selina being a good fighter... makes sense, she grew up on the streets and at certain points she had to fight to survive. What does not make sense is her beating up Talia Al Ghul, who trained her entire life under the League of Assasins in a swordfight.

Harley literally does not have a backstory that even remotely justifies her being as good at fighting as she is.

Now, you can say that "well comic books don't really operate by logic, not even internal logic" but that's what I'm arguing is the problem. There are absolutely no rules in the worldbuilding of comic books, which in turn makes all the characters more boring and makes a lot of things much less impactful. Batman beating a SWAT team is less impressive if we see that a psychiatrist that had a normal life also did it too.

The problem with this "well it's fiction nothing matters" philosophy is that the stakes are completely lost. The characters can do anything. You could have Harley Quinn beating Superman up with no kryptonite or anything and then you can justify it by saying "Well there's no logic so who cares"
Everything about the world becomes meaningless.
That's one of the main problems of modern comic books, to be honest. The stories don't really matter, a character's triumphs and defeats don't matter. That makes everything much less satisfactory. It can be cool for a story or tool but it's at the cost of making absolutely everything irrelevant.

It's a super lazy way of telling a story and building a world.

 

[Yowza]

I'm not talking about realism, I'm talking about logic, the internal logic of a story and of a universe, which I think it's important because it's what ultimately lets you see that there are consequences and there are certain parameters and rules.

Batman being one of the best fighters in the world... that makes sense, he trained for 18 years to become "peak human potential"
The Robins being excellent fighters, again, makes sense, they trained under Batman.
Cassandra... makes sense, she trained under Lady Shiva and David Cain and under Batman.
Selina being a good fighter... makes sense, she grew up on the streets and at certain points she had to fight to survive. What does not make sense is her beating up Talia Al Ghul, who trained her entire life under the League of Assasins in a swordfight.

Harley literally does not have a backstory that even remotely justifies her being as good at fighting as she is.

Now, you can say that "well comic books don't really operate by logic, not even internal logic" but that's what I'm arguing is the problem. There are absolutely no rules in the worldbuilding of comic books, which in turn makes all the characters more boring and makes a lot of things much less impactful. Batman beating a SWAT team is less impressive if we see that a psychiatrist that had a normal life also did it too.

The problem with this "well it's fiction nothing matters" philosophy is that the stakes are completely lost. The characters can do anything. You could have Harley Quinn beating Superman up with no kryptonite or anything and then you can justify it by saying "Well there's no logic so who cares"
Everything about the world becomes meaningless.
That's one of the main problems of modern comic books, to be honest. The stories don't really matter, a character's triumphs and defeats don't matter. That makes everything much less satisfactory.

I think some creatives follow an internal story logic more so than others.

I'm not sure how to further elaborate at the moment from what I was trying to say but I agree that certain character parameters must be held relatively constant (such as personality, abilities with some range of fluctuation, perspectives/beliefs, mental aspects). A character remaining in character while moving from point A to point B to create as opposed to suit a narrative while being contained by story logic of course makes a story more compelling.

Watchmen I used as an example as that contains very fantastical characters coinciding with a realistic setting in which reality is forced to bend around certain characters that don't mesh with realistic society yet infuse themselves into it in a manner that makes the story engaging and interesting (As Rorscharch would say: "I am not locked in here with you. You are locked in with me!").

The ambient backdrop of Gotham is a fantastical realm that mirrors reality in that the average citizens including the police and everyone else are actually limited to within their physical means. It's only when this is counterpointed by random variables that don't make sense does it become evident that certain characters (to use the Matrix analogy) have taken the red pill so to speak but instead of becoming aware of an actual reality like in the Matrix movies are infusing their own presence onto Gotham that follows with the character's internal psychology and motives that creates a mind over matter scenario as far as physical limitations go all too often.

The narrative (as quoted from someone in my post remarking on how the various villains of Gotham come about) is usually the same. The playground is Gotham. The story logic must hold up though and there are certainly misteps and directions with certain characters that don't make sense by some creatives that fans may not agree with but I think it's strikingly evident Harley's character can put herself into a hyper aware state at times and physical limitations definitely become less so making her an ultra dangerous presence within Gotham based on what her current mood or state is.

 

[Invader Joker]

The narrative (as quoted from someone in my post remarking on how the various villains of Gotham come about) is usually the same. The playground is Gotham. The story logic must hold up though and there are certainly misteps and directions with certain characters that don't make sense by some creatives that fans may not agree with but I think it's strikingly evident Harley's character can put herself into a hyper aware state at times and physical limitations definitely become less so making her an ultra dangerous presence within Gotham based on what her current mood or state is.

It still doesn't justify her being able to beat up a bunch of goons as if she was a highly trained mercenary killer.

If they gave some internal logic like for whatever reason she has metahuman powers (which I believe they did at some point in pre-Flashpoint but it seems that's no longer canon) then it'd be fine since we know superpowers exist in the DC Universe. But making her almost as skilled as someone in the Batfamily when she doesn't have superpowers just cheapens the Batfamily, and cheapens the training that those characters had to go through and their backstories.

 

[Sithborg]

What is wrong with assuming that she has some background that allowed her to develop those skills? There is plenty we already suspend belief for.

 

[Micromind]

It still doesn't justify her being able to beat up a bunch of goons as if she was a highly trained mercenary killer..

Harley was trained gymnast and she can make effective use of Mallet and baseball bat, plus as she was with Joker for a while, she has learned how to use some firearms (pistols), that's all she can do. She's dangerous as she is mentally unstable and can become unhinged.

Harley Quinn is not an expert in martial arts (like Black Canary in comics) or trained ninja (like Katana) or a assassin (like Deadshot). So you equating her to a "highly trained mercenary killer" is bit exaggeration.

 

[Yowza]

It still doesn't justify her being able to beat up a bunch of goons as if she was a highly trained mercenary killer.

If they gave some internal logic like for whatever reason she has metahuman powers (which I believe they did at some point in pre-Flashpoint but it seems that's no longer canon) then it'd be fine since we know superpowers exist in the DC Universe. But making her almost as skilled as someone in the Batfamily when she doesn't have superpowers just cheapens the Batfamily, and cheapens the training that those characters had to go through and their backstories.

I'm just going to set aside what she should or should not be capable of given the media content that she appears in as I pretty much said everything I'm able to say about that.

Comics in general I find leave a lot to be desired as far as details and world building goes so a lot has to be inferenced all too often. This is the case with many characters and I think Harley's has undergone several transitions over the years.

Specifics are amalgamated together making it difficult to search for one definitive version of the character as a result.

There's a dichotomy in the character in terms of who she was once before and who she is after she changes from Harleen to Harley I think it's safe to say though and in the world of Gotham we know what that means as evidenced by following picture...

What is wrong with assuming that she has some background that allowed her to develop those skills? There is plenty we already suspend belief for.

Exactly...

There are some variables one can consider when thinking on this but inference is needed:
*Background: Harleen Francis Quenzel had a very high I.Q. in what areas it's hard to say but probably similar to Barbara Gordon... Whatever she learned in her early life she probably didn't forget having an almost perfect memory (not Hyperthymesia like but a fast learner and not forgetting things very easily)... Most citizens of Gotham mid to upper class probably did some sort of basic self defense classes at some point; Harleen's family probably was upper middle class and had various self-defense trainers stop by as one of the many types of amusements other than Croquet the family would regularly engage in. Harleen though actually retained all of this knowledge soaking it up in her mind along with many other things she learned early in life. In athletics she was involved with Gymnastics at the collegiate level at least can be ascertained from vague details given on the character from what I'm able to look up.

*She received a scholarship to Gotham University majoring in psychology appearing as a psychoanalyst at Arkham for her internship and a bit nosy always trying to pick up on added detail with a mildly sharp yet reserved temperament. Personality wise she was introverted and very contained hung up on detail and proper way of doing things. She wasn't reckless but also not given to scare easily as evidenced by her reaction at getting trapped by the Joker at Arkham before he changed her into Harley Quinn.

*Her thinking has changed similar to what happened to the Joker. The Joker is unpredictable and very deadly almost hyper aware and unreactive to pain or normal way of thinking (thinks outside of the box and very quickly while on his feet). He's more deceptive than Harley but similar in some ways. Harley seems to fluctuate and her state of mind I think can be inferenced at times. When she's on a tangent of some narrative she's telling herself she gets more dangerous the more worked she gets though and can become delusional playing a part at times but seems to have 1 personality but can get very loud and emotions (and overall state of being) are a larger than life rollercoaster ride with her.

*I suppose something akin to what's presented in the movie Lucy could be 1 example of added abilities through other areas of the mind being opened up. In the world of Gotham (not the real world) this perhaps holds up. The Batman comics don't touch on this but it's probably safe to say there's some sort of mental and physical transformation that happens due to the chemical vats she fell into not to mention the Joker frying her brain. Slightly enhanced physical abilities I think can be inferenced as well (physically quick, thinking many steps ahead, utilizing the environment around her, and skillsets she's continuously soaking up like a sponge).

*She's obviously picked up a lot of after turning into Harley Quinn and discovering what she's able to do while gaining skill sets in the process.

*Different renditions of the character have been done. Unlike Typhoid Mary in Daredevil where she has certain personalities Harley is commonly depicted as being set with 1 altered personality after her makeover.