Bought // Thought November 05 2008

[fifthfiend]

I tried so so so so so so hard to like Ultimatum, but even Finch's pretty visuals couldn't hide Loeb's atrocious writing. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with this guy? Actually, better question, what the hell is wrong with marvel for continually allowing this guy to write their books? His books get horrible reviews, the fans despise him, what's keeping marvel from axing this dude?

don't all his books sell a ****ton?

 

[Themanofbat]

The US price tag for X-Men/Spidey was $3.99 (as Dread pointed out, the new typical mini-series price tag ), so methinks kguillou got a deal.

 

[fifthfiend]

Maybe the cashier at his comic shop just sucks at ringing things up. I mean, that happens.

 

[Themanofbat]

Maybe the cashier at his comic shop just sucks at ringing things up. I mean, that happens.

I'd agree with this .... especially seeing the guys that work in comic shops for the last 28+ years...

 

[Dread]

Bought/Thought for 11/5/08, Part Two:

INVINCIBLE IRON MAN #7: A Marvel comic for $2.99? They're becoming rarer to find. This is an epilogue, or "trade break" issue of the series that also doubles as a guest appearance for Spider-Man. It also dives face-first into how BRAND NEW DAY has mixed and matched Marvel continuity. Maybe if I read ASM I would have been better prepared for it, but coming in now, I got a taste of it full on. The taste isn't sweet.

What BRAND NEW DAY has done, in effect, is that for the price of literally ERASING the marriage from history, as well as the unmasking (which was only 2 years ago; man, I bet everyone who treated CIVIL WAR #2 first print like gold feels like a sucker now) and whatnot. However, as DC has experienced a few times with their cluster**** of a continuity (try explaining anyone's origin without using the term "Pre-Crisis" or "Hypertime"), simply using pick-and-choose things to delete doesn't work as planned. Every status quo had reactions and counter-reactions. Take the crux of this issue. The main drama of it is that we have Iron Man and Spider-Man meeting after all that has happened to them post CW. It is supposed to be dramatic. But intsead the "deletions" of it make it awkward.

They want to keep that Peter used to work for Stark, and the pair were close (during THE OTHER and of course the prelude to CW). But, the unmasking is undone so Stark doesn't know Peter is Spider-Man, even though he knew it since New Avengers at least. And there was no marriage, so Peter couldn't have lived at Stark Tower with MJ anymore. How exactly were they that close, then, if Peter didn't confide the identity or move in with his wife? So we are left with what could have been something interesting reduced to something that seems more artificial; every time you spot something that doesn't fit, you can feel Mephisto's reach into the minds of the characters, and it sucks. It only cements that if they wanted Peter unmarried and with a secret identity again, there was a better way to do it without a Spider-Crisis. Or, of course, they could have said "No" to Mark Millar in 2006, but that would have required conviction and sacrificing the current sale for the greater good of a franchise, and Marvel doesn't do that.

Onto the actual story; Peter Parker, still a freelance photographer (eliminating the job as a teacher, the only GOOD detail from JMS' run beyond maybe Aunt May learning the truth), is working a gig for Ben Urich at FRONTLINE. After the bombings of Stark Industries, Urich wants a "street level" type story below the spin about the reaction to the bombing. When Peter & Urich don't have much luck during a Stark press conference, Peter visits the site as Spider-Man, running into Iron Man. IM makes a lot of fuss about being unwilling to be seen with Spidey since he is considered an unregistered fugitive now. But he doesn't recall Peter's identity, and the unmasking, so what, the Iron Spidey run never happened? IM doesn't lift a gauntlet to arrest Spider-Man as he tags along with a few of his battles against Tinkerer and the Big Wheel to reclaim his stolen tech from a black market network. The tone is humorous but Spidey realizes that for the first time, Iron Man seems overwhelmed and not as confident as he seems to come off as, between running SHIELD, his company, and trying to keep his tech out of criminals hands. Spidey gets in some good banter, and Larroca's art is terrific.

But...let me get this straight. Two years ago, JMS shoves Spider-Man into Iron Man's world and manufactures some deep relationship between the two heroes with all the grace of a jackhammer. Within a short period of time, Peter shares his identity, moves his family (his wife and aunt) into Stark Tower, Stark cures him of an illness or whatever the hell THE OTHER was, makes him a new suit, and of course talks him into unmasking & registering before he comes to his senses. They were paired DELIBERATELY to set up the stuff in CIVIL WAR. The unmasking was a big **** storm. But then, what? A year later, Joe Q and JMS do BND and this eliminates all of Spidey's problems. But if the unmasking was a problem, why do it? If they didn't want more people to know Peter's identity, why reveal it to Iron Man? Why have Bendis be loosey-goosey with it in NA? Why not carefully plan actions before spending so much energy doing "shocking" things just to have to undo it in equally shocking ways!?

You will notice that during Joe Q's tenure, the best things that happened usually have the least of his specific, fine tuned influence. The things he approves and lets others execute. The stuff he handles personally turns gold into crap. This is one of them. Marvel wanted to have it's cake and eat it to with Spidey, and has instead made him irrelevant. So now he is back to the same job and same life that he had at 17, but they want to put in bits they liked from recent runs for convenience and hope no one catches on!? This stuff makes Xorneto make sense.

The irony is that there were better ways to "remask" Spidey and even get rid of the marriage than the Infinite Spider Crisis way they chose. Instead they chose a route where they needed Romita Jr. to draw a FAQ 2 page drawing explaining the cluster **** mess that STILL didn't explain jack ****! You can't whitewash everything and then expect the few specks left behind to have any weight.

Some elite comic book readers have a name for the type of fan who has "grown up" with a character, but then insists on either retconning them back to the era when THEY were young, even if it was 20-50 years ago, while wanting to make everything bleak and "realistic" and destroy what came before drama. They call those fans "Babymen". They are crippling DC, and they have crippled Spider-Man. Deciding nothing he has done between 1979 and 2007 was worth keeping is one of the worst theories for Spider-Man. Rather than "re-energize" him, it reminds you that Spider-Man is so old a franchise that the company has to do desperate **** to make people pay attention, or to eliminate a generation's worth of "dust". Babymen are why comics are growing stale as a whole. Men who are pushing middle age so desperate to recreate the stories of the Vietnam era that they push out any fan of progress, or any fan under 35. They'll get their wish.

Spider-Man's appeal was being a "regular guy" dealing with his amazing alternate life. But his adventures have become a spin cycle of worthlessness, and this comic right here is an example of this sort of hogwash. He is about the most unrealistic superheroes ever, and all of this was magnified because leagues of writers couldn't make the marriage work, and Joe Q had a hard on for the 70's.

The Clone Saga didn't kill Spider-Man. The Joe Q tenure did. Remember that, web-heads. Remember that. Don't take things in "bold new directions" if you know you don't have the nuts to keep them there. And if any retcon has to go back beyond a decade, it usually isn't worth doing. If the economy of 2008-2009 ends up putting comic sales on the brink, well, Joe Q and DiDio brought it upon themselves with actions like BND, telling a generation or two of fans what they love and care about is worthless and can be haphazardly erased with a few pages and a sense of arrogance.

The rehashed, broken down, mess of a relationship that now exists and is presented as normal and desirable in INVINCIBLE IRON MAN #7 displays all the things to hate about modern comics. Marvel took their greatest franchise, and ruined it completely and forevermore because they're deathly afraid of a mature relationship with a woman. They've done some wonky stories to keep Peter a man-child, usually by having his girlfriends either die (Gwen) or turn out to be crazy (Felicia, Debra, two in a row), but BND put the ****-storm to a new level of putridness and no one, not Slott, and not Fraction, can make the mess worthwhile. Mephisto took Peter's wife. His friends. A new career. And we're supposed to just swallow it all? It's like the Exiles acting like Morph is fine. It's completely awkward.

So long as a story just has Spider-Man in it and doesn't try to delve into deep continuity, it is fine. But stuff like this, trying to have it both ways with the new rehashed Spider-History, fails on every level.

X-MEN AND SPIDER-MAN #1: And now for something completely different. Well, not really. Written by Christos Gage and drawn by Mario Alberti, this is a 4 issue mini that invents 4 different team ups between the X-Men and Spider-Man from different eras. Why? Who knows. Marvel must have felt some weeks have too few X-Men or Spider-Man comics. Maybe the cost of paper wouldn't be so high if you commissioned less of it, guys. There are plenty of comics that have no reason to be commissioned. Why publish stuff that has no chance of selling and no one asked for it, stuff like this?

But, for what it is, it's fun. It is like a really good issue of X-MEN: FIRST CLASS. From the 70's era stuff, the original X-Men (back when they had unique costumes but still were the core five) have to run into Spider-Man when his enemy Kraven the Hunter announces on TV that Spidey is a mutant. Ignoring the danger, Spidey goes on a double date with Harry & MJ (alongside Gwen) to the Coffee Bean, where the superhero chaos hits the fan when the X-Men, Kraven, AND Blob show up. The heroes save the day, but not before Kraven whisks some DNA samples to Mr. Sinister.

Joy, another retcon. That's how many this week? Plus, Kraven's dead, so any new revelations about Sergei really won't matter, will they?

But taken in isolation, this is a fun little adventure. Reminding you of a time when Marvel comics fearlessly faced the future, rather than fleeing to the past. If the other 3 issues are this fun, I may forget that the overall mini is kind of pointless.

 

[Manic]

When I gives the cashiers at my local comic shop the books I want, they actually go through the trouble of separating it all into different stacks based on price before adding it up. My efforts to get my ad-less indie books for $2.99 by shoving them between Marvel & DC ongoings are wasted.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

My reviews and thoughts....

 

[fifthfiend]

And there was no marriage, so Peter couldn't have lived at Stark Tower with MJ anymore.

According to the assorted Marvel people they were living together for that entire length of time, just as an unmarried couple, which continued to be together up until some unspecified point between OMD and BND.

Which I mean is even stupider but you know. Eh.

It's like the Exiles acting like Morph is fine.

That's actually a really good comparison for the whole thing.

 

[kguillou]

Originally posted by Dread

They want to keep that Peter used to work for Stark, and the pair were close (during THE OTHER and of course the prelude to CW). But, the unmasking is undone so Stark doesn't know Peter is Spider-Man, even though he knew it since New Avengers at least. And there was no marriage, so Peter couldn't have lived at Stark Tower with MJ anymore. How exactly were they that close, then, if Peter didn't confide the identity or move in with his wife? So we are left with what could have been something interesting reduced to something that seems more artificial; every time you spot something that doesn't fit, you can feel Mephisto's reach into the minds of the characters, and it sucks. It only cements that if they wanted Peter unmarried and with a secret identity again, there was a better way to do it without a Spider-Crisis. Or, of course, they could have said "No" to Mark Millar in 2006, but that would have required conviction and sacrificing the current sale for the greater good of a franchise, and Marvel doesn't do that.

Onto the actual story; Peter Parker, still a freelance photographer (eliminating the job as a teacher, the only GOOD detail from JMS' run beyond maybe Aunt May learning the truth), is working a gig for Ben Urich at FRONTLINE. After the bombings of Stark Industries, Urich wants a "street level" type story below the spin about the reaction to the bombing. When Peter & Urich don't have much luck during a Stark press conference, Peter visits the site as Spider-Man, running into Iron Man. IM makes a lot of fuss about being unwilling to be seen with Spidey since he is considered an unregistered fugitive now. But he doesn't recall Peter's identity, and the unmasking, so what, the Iron Spidey run never happened? IM doesn't lift a gauntlet to arrest Spider-Man as he tags along with a few of his battles against Tinkerer and the Big Wheel to reclaim his stolen tech from a black market network. The tone is humorous but Spidey realizes that for the first time, Iron Man seems overwhelmed and not as confident as he seems to come off as, between running SHIELD, his company, and trying to keep his tech out of criminals hands. Spidey gets in some good banter, and Larroca's art is terrific.

But...let me get this straight. Two years ago, JMS shoves Spider-Man into Iron Man's world and manufactures some deep relationship between the two heroes with all the grace of a jackhammer. Within a short period of time, Peter shares his identity, moves his family (his wife and aunt) into Stark Tower, Stark cures him of an illness or whatever the hell THE OTHER was, makes him a new suit, and of course talks him into unmasking & registering before he comes to his senses. They were paired DELIBERATELY to set up the stuff in CIVIL WAR. The unmasking was a big **** storm. But then, what? A year later, Joe Q and JMS do BND and this eliminates all of Spidey's problems. But if the unmasking was a problem, why do it? If they didn't want more people to know Peter's identity, why reveal it to Iron Man? Why have Bendis be loosey-goosey with it in NA? Why not carefully plan actions before spending so much energy doing "shocking" things just to have to undo it in equally shocking ways!?

Dread that is the most beautiful post i've read in a long time. I mean it. That's exactly how i feel about this. You made a great point man, why the hell did marvel let Millar unmask spidey in the first place if all this was gonna happen. You cant tell me Joe Q didnt know that the unmasking was going to create a world of problems for the Spiderman books, you cant tell me he didnt know that it would eventually havta be "fixed". So why didnt they just avoid the problem in the first place?

 

[Marcdachamp]

Marvel Zombies 3- PICK OF THE WEEK! Wow. This mini hasn't just surpassed the rest, it's now in Walking Dead territory. The art and coloring are fantastic! The two page spread in the middle is just... I don't want to ruin it! If you've liked any of the Marvel Zombies series, you have to read this ! 9/10

Transformers Spotlight: Blurr- Ok, where did Coller come from? This is the first issue I've seen from the guy, and he's just a perfect fit. I think IDW is one of the few publishers that has TOO many good artists. Between Su, Figueroa and Guidi, its gotta be tough for any new artists to get a crack at the Transformers. The same could be said for writers, I suppose, but McCarthy is getting a crack, so that's nice to see. Speaking of which, he really nailed this. Great pre-war story, and I loved Optimus. His design was great, and I liked seeing him as a young soldier. Kinda wish they'd worked War Within into IDW continuity, but that's alright. 9/10

Invincible Iron Man- Great epilogue to the first arc. My only big gripe is that I was hoping to see a little information on what Tony remembers. I was hoping it'd be closer to Norman, personally. Fraction really nails Peter and Ben Urich. Great last page, too. 9/10

Amazing Spider-Man- Decent wrap-up to the arc, but it's a little too tidy for my liking. I was hoping that Hammerhead would be sticking around as a regular enforcer for Mr. Negative. Felt like the build-up just wasn't worth the pay-off. I really did like the new love interest, though. She seems like a great foil for Peter. Love the art, too. 8/10

Avengers: The Initiative- Pretty good issue. Really not what I expected. The Trauma back-up was the real highlight, though. I'm excited to see where the ending will lead. 8/10

Ultimatum- Kind of hard to judge. It's like the first issue of Ultimates 3: very chaotic, but with a lot of potential. Finch perfectly nails the bleakness of the attack. A normal scene for a comic feels far more powerful. I'm really interested to see where it goes. There's little significant character interaction, but the Kitty/Peter stuff was perfect. 7/10

Punisher War Journal Annual- The idea is decent, and the arts better than what I usually get from PWJ, but the whole thing goes on too long, and the "groovy" dialogue wears thin VERY quickly. Ho hum. 4/10

Also got The Wizard of Oz sketchbook. Congrats, Marvel. I may trade-wait, I may buy the singles. Regardless, I'm sold. This looks great.

 

[RockSP]

JSA #20
Vixen: Return of the Lion #2
Terra #1
Flash Gordon #2
Adam: Legend of the Blue Marvel #1
Secret Six #3
Kull #1
Gigantic #1
Avengers: The Initiative special
Gemini #3
Invincible Iron Man #7

Gigantic - So Earth was constructed by aliens to serve as a tv show for the universe. Then throw in some giant robots and monsters. If you ever watched Voltron, Tranzor Z or a variety of live action kid shows from Japan then you might like this. Lots more death and gore than those shows of course, and a lot less cheese.

Vixen - Can't remember where I've seen the artist's (Cafu) work before but I like it.

Secret Six - The origin of "the card" is revealed, and I doubt anyone guessed it. With Bane's attitude toward Scandal, I'm thinking a strange and comical confrontation with Vandal Savage is eventually coming.

 

[Themanofbat]

I typically like Dread's reviews, but that one of Iron Man #7 just reeks of ignorance, probably due to the fact that he doesn't read Amazing Spider-Man and is just following whatever negative spew he can hear about the current direction of Spidey on the Internet.

Truth be told, Dread, if you had been reading Spidey's book, you'd know that there is a mystery afoot, that being the 4 month period between the end of OMD and the begining of BND. These are slowly being addressed in the pages of ASM and speculating/knowing what "might" have occured really helps out when reading IM #7... But seeing as you want to be a stubborn ass about it, I doubt you'll believe me as well and keep on hating...

But as I read the books, I'm to understand that there is no "retcon" (as you put it), and Spider-Man has not been killed (again, as you put it), and the efforts I'm seeing to potentially put more emphasis on Spider-Man continuity (as well as how he fits into the rest of the Marvel Universe (continuity-wise)) is a LOT more NOW than we have EVER seen in the last 10 years, during the so-called "great JMS era".

So please, if you want to complain about something, do a little research about it first before going on a little temper tantrum... the rants are really beneath you.

Cheers...

Mike

 

[Dread]

According to the assorted Marvel people they were living together for that entire length of time, just as an unmarried couple, which continued to be together up until some unspecified point between OMD and BND.

Which I mean is even stupider but you know. Eh.

Yes, that is even stupider, and a bit more of a tease. So for all these years they were "cohabititating"?

Seriously, was the marriage ever that ****ing bad? Because while a lot of writers seemed to make it either a chore or boring, frankly I recall long stretches of times where Reed & Sue had it much worse. I think what happened is that most writers forgot that both Peter & MJ were supposed to be 25-27 and instead treated them like a middle aged couple. They had no fun and little spunk for long stretches of time. MJ was a party girl who used to get hot over guys who offer a lot less than the thrill of being married to Spider-Man. Sure, there was the whole "the party ditz was an act" thing, but I felt a string of writers made their marriage tedious and boring, and what was needed was a fresh perspective, not Infinite Spider-Crisis.

The moral is you can't shatter a relationship and then expect it to have dramatic weight later.

That's actually a really good comparison for the whole thing.

I know. I chose it deliberately to make my point. Actions that whitewash stuff simply make characters appear more 2 dimensional or phoney and readers usually see through it.

Dread that is the most beautiful post i've read in a long time. I mean it. That's exactly how i feel about this. You made a great point man, why the hell did marvel let Millar unmask spidey in the first place if all this was gonna happen. You cant tell me Joe Q didnt know that the unmasking was going to create a world of problems for the Spiderman books, you cant tell me he didnt know that it would eventually havta be "fixed". So why didnt they just avoid the problem in the first place?

Why? Because CIVIL WAR #2 sold nearly 400k-500k and had 2-3 prints, and gained mass media attention. Joe Q's enture tenure has been about winning battles but not a war. He dreams up the "edgiest" stuff for the next 6-24 months but then can't fathom the limitations or problems farther down the road. Plus, with "hot" writers, editorial oversight is a joke. No one is going to say "No" to Millar or Bendis.

Being an EIC has to be a delicate balance between doing something cheap for a quick score or taking a long term approach to a franchise. Instead we have a EIC who, a good half dozen times in interviews, bragged about employing the 45 year old strategy of "throwing things against a wall and seeing what sticks". Well, I could get that kind of leadership from Curious George.

I have read a few articles and opinions from Spider-fans who feel little good has come within the past 15 years to the franchise in general, and I kind of agree. The reason why is that for 15 years, several EIC's have done one Shark-Jumping measure after another to drastically overhual things when all that is needed is a long term, steady handed approach with the proper writer. Who that writer is, of course, is the task of the editors to find. Spider-Man as a franchise, IMO, became a victim of his own success and at least 2-3 EIC tenures with a lot of flash and little substance for him, seeking cures far worse than any so called "disease". Overreacting to a problem should not always be the first strategy, but it is what gains the most attention, and sadly becomes the most repeated.

 

[Dread]

I typically like Dread's reviews, but that one of Iron Man #7 just reeks of ignorance, probably due to the fact that he doesn't read Amazing Spider-Man and is just following whatever negative spew he can hear about the current direction of Spidey on the Internet.

Truth be told, Dread, if you had been reading Spidey's book, you'd know that there is a mystery afoot, that being the 4 month period between the end of OMD and the begining of BND. These are slowly being addressed in the pages of ASM and speculating/knowing what "might" have occured really helps out when reading IM #7... But seeing as you want to be a stubborn ass about it, I doubt you'll believe me as well and keep on hating...

But as I read the books, I'm to understand that there is no "retcon" (as you put it), and Spider-Man has not been killed (again, as you put it), and the efforts I'm seeing to potentially put more emphasis on Spider-Man continuity (as well as how he fits into the rest of the Marvel Universe (continuity-wise)) is a LOT more NOW than we have EVER seen in the last 10 years, during the so-called "great JMS era".

So please, if you want to complain about something, do a little research about it first before going on a little temper tantrum... the rants are really beneath you.

Cheers...

Mike

I never felt JMS' run was "great". He injected a lot of mysticism into Spider-Man which was a bit ludicrious to me. Then of course SINS PAST nailed down that he had run out of ideas. His bold new villain, Morlun, was basically a boring vampire with class 100 strength. THE OTHER also happened on his watch. Even his supporters usually agree he was on that book a few years too long.

My point is that I don't care much for the "mystery". I am looking at the reality. The reality was that OMD was Infinite Spider-Crisis, negating the "bad" elements of Spider-Man and mixing them in with status quo stuff circa before 1986. It reflected Joe Q's personal and limited theory that the marriage completely stifled Spider-Man forever, because apparently the stories of a 26 year old man should be exactly the same as when he was 16, just with legal bar hopping.

A lot of the things OMD sought to fix; the extra powers, the unmasking, so many people knowing with Spidey was, including virtually every Avengers member, the elimination of Spider-Man's entire supporting cast besides MJ and May, thus making him stale - ALL happened on Joe Q's watch. Had he taken time to consider his drastic actions rather than just strike from the hip for the quickest cash score or Newsarama headline (or managed to say "No" to one of his hot-shot, coddled, holier-than-thou thinking writers), Spider-Man would have been better off. Coming up with a solution to your own problems years after the fact is not exactly the pinnacle of leadership.

The solution, of course, has told a generation of fans that they don't matter. That on a whim and for a few bucks, anything can be undone. So why get invested in anything that you read when it can be undone in an instant? Especially for a franchise that STILL carries some taint from the Clone Saga, which in a way was ANOTHER attempt to get "single Spidey back" (say he was a clone, replace him with the "original" who was a swingin' single again).

Plus, add in the fact that OMD was a ****ing terrible story that conflicted with past depictions of the characters even as written months earlier.

In trying to "explain" what is still valid and what isn't, it simply cements the fact that stuff has been buried, taken away, due to fear and ignorance. And I can't simply read a story about Peter having perennial dating problems and at the same job he had for 40 years when I know it is a lie, and there were better solutions to it.

Unmasked? Dan Slott tried to move Peter's identity from "publicly known" to "majorly suspected" a la' Daredevil in AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE, but apparently that wasn't sweeping or fast enough. New Powers? Spidey used to have six arms, but he lose those without a deal with Mephisto; if they became a problem, they could always fade or whatnot. Stale Job? Frankly, the idea of Peter being a school-teacher is GREAT and was a GOLDMINE of potential that wasn't tapped properly. But the Bugle gig was missed, so why choose? He could have had both. Teachers make lousey pay. Spidey always has a camera anyway. Why make life harder than it had to be? You could have had a competant approach to a new school supporting cast (and not just the "emo student/evil co-teacher of the month") while having Peter sell pictures part time for some extra cash so the Bugle crew stays too. Why is the idea of an unpaid message board fanboy more reasonable and workable than the paid ideas of 7 years worth of writers and editors?

Married? Well, of course, Joe Q could have had an open mind and found a writer who didn't write a married couple under 30 as a boring middle aged couple. But if it had to happen, the best choice would have been to go through with it in human terms, not ask a Hell Lord to erase it from collective universe memory. That's DC-level baloney. Now you can't explain anything that happened to Spider-Man without Pre-Crisis being mentioned, or Pre-OMD. That's stupid. That's Un-Marvel.

To be fair, INVINCIBLE IRON MAN #7 isn't a terrible comic; Fraction does get some great dialogue out of his heroes, and the art & cover from Larocca is incredible. But it just served as evidence of the broken down, scatter-shot, pick-and-choose current character history and it seems false, phoney, and artificial. I can't honestly believe it or buy into it, and that is major, MAJOR narrative problem.

 

[Themanofbat]

From what I'm hearing, all events that led up to OMD still occured, with Pete & MJ being a couple in love rather than a married one... sure, it's a stretch at times, but I'd rather have that than all the pre-OMD history invalid.

Everything that you mentioned, the new powers, Pete's identity being public, etc... will be explained as to how it went from what "was" to what "is".

In fact, in the recent New Ways to Die arc, there's a thought balloon from Peter that states along the lines that nobody remembers my identity because of hat "we" did... I doubt very much that Pete remembers Mephisto's deal (as it was mentioned in OMD that he wouldn't remember it), so it allows me to think that Peter (and somebody else... possibly Loki) went out of their way to make the world forget... and even going one step further to make them "never suspect"... and we see this in Iron Man #7 where Peter will not budge on his identity because he knows how many of his loved ones will die/get hurt because of their proximity to Peter Parker.

Also mentioned in New Ways to Die was the fact that Harry has been "dead" once before (as mentioned by Nomrna himself), and the reasons behind his return will be showcased in next month's books...

So maybe it all started out as a "pick what we'd like to see in a Spider-Man book", but I for one am glad to see the creators and Marvel attempt to try and make it work within the confines of continuity.

I've read way too many comic books in the last 34 years to know that some changes are not permanent... otherwise Jean Grey & Norman Osborn would still be dead in the ground... so I fail to understand the bitterness of what happened... especially NOW when things are becoming a tad more clear than say 8 months ago....

 

[Blader5489]

I don't know why I still pick up JSA, it just gets and worse with each issue.

 

[fifthfiend]

A lot of the things OMD sought to fix; the extra powers, the unmasking, so many people knowing with Spidey was, including virtually every Avengers member, the elimination of Spider-Man's entire supporting cast besides MJ and May, thus making him stale - ALL happened on Joe Q's watch.

To be clear, the official position seems to be that OMD didn't actually fix a single one of those things. Spidey gave his marriage to Satan cause he thought that'd be a lulzy thing to do, then there was an undefined gap of time when all that other stuff got fixed in some way that nobody can be bothered to actually explain, except for the extra powers which according to said official position are all still there.

Except for the mindwipe, which Mephisto actually did, but Spidey thinks he did with someone who isn't Mephisto... yeah so pretty much the more you explain OMD/BND, the stupider it is. Like I said, that Exiles comparison was dead-on.

 

[Anubis]

I don't know why I still pick up JSA, it just gets and worse with each issue.

As do your opinions.

 

[SouLeSS]

I don't know why I still pick up JSA, it just gets and worse with each issue.

I've been back and forth as to weather or not I want to keep picking it up or not. It's leaning more towards dropping it, though I do want to see what comes out of this Kingdom "arc" that's been going on for about 15 issues now. I'll probably drop it after this storyline is concluded, just cause it does seem to get a little worse and worse with each issue, and it's starting to drag like hell.

 

[Dread]

To be clear, the official position seems to be that OMD didn't actually fix a single one of those things. Spidey gave his marriage to Satan cause he thought that'd be a lulzy thing to do, then there was an undefined gap of time when all that other stuff got fixed in some way that nobody can be bothered to actually explain, except for the extra powers which according to said official position are all still there.

Except for the mindwipe, which Mephisto actually did, but Spidey thinks he did with someone who isn't Mephisto... yeah so pretty much the more you explain OMD/BND, the stupider it is. Like I said, that Exiles comparison was dead-on.

Agreed. OMD/BND is, to paraphase Paul O'Brien, writer for THE BEAT, THE X-AXIS and formerly 9TH ART, "proof that every time you think Spider-Man had leapt over the final shark, Marvel trucks out a new aquarium".

As for Themanofbat, mentioning past great stories like those at the end that retcons have rendered worthless is not the best way to make your point; in a way it justifies a lot of fans' bitterness with current times. If any story can be undone, whitewashed away, or complicated up the wazoo with demonic mind-wipes, what is the point of getting emotionally invested? It's due to stuff like that that "indie snobs" look down on the big two.

I contend that if the Spider-Man franchises needed some tweaks or adjustments, it did not need the sort of complicated hogwash that OMD/BND was; it would have required vision, a steady hand, and some foresight. The fact that it takes well over 1,000 words to even attempt to explain the mess proves it, as is the fact that Marvel is obviously "fixing it as they go" which is why it is taking nearly an entire year to begin to unravel the mess and how it mingles with other things, like New Avengers.

Apparently, not everyone likes this sort of thing; EXILES has steadily lost readers since the Morph incident. Not even Claremont can drum up interest. It's selling below the Top 100 and headed closer to SPIDER GIRL sales.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Okay... so here's me joining the anti-OMD/BND parade. Marvel solicited the whole thing as Mephisto erased all the above mentioned stuff... and even Quesada himself said that it was due to Magic and that it didn't need explained. Now they're explaining it, which is fine... but now I'm to go buy 30+ issues just to get the story and explanation? Screw that. I'm with Dread. OMD/BND is still just as stupid a tactic/event as any I've ever seen and has killed Spider-Man for me. And this from a guy who LOVED the Clone Saga.

 

[Blader5489]

Okay... so here's me joining the anti-OMD/BND parade. Marvel solicited the whole thing as Mephisto erased all the above mentioned stuff... and even Quesada himself said that it was due to Magic and that it didn't need explained. Now they're explaining it, which is fine... but now I'm to go buy 30+ issues just to get the story and explanation? Screw that. I'm with Dread. OMD/BND is still just as stupid a tactic/event as any I've ever seen and has killed Spider-Man for me. And this from a guy who LOVED the Clone Saga.

You hate BND for dragging out story explanations, but you loved the Clone Saga? Wha?

 

[Anubis]

There is no such thing as Logic within the fanboy psyche.

 

[Manic]

This is true. For example...

Thor = Moving too slowly
Sandman = Slowly paced masterpiece

 

[JewishHobbit]

You hate BND for dragging out story explanations, but you loved the Clone Saga? Wha?

The Clone Saga was a long storyline, but it wasn't really drawn out. The story began with Ben's return in Power & Responsibility. Questions were raised here about how he lived, but they were also anwered in the same arc. Questions were raised about what he's been doing and that was also answered along the way. We wonder what will become of him and the very next arc, The Exile Returns, answers this. We meet Kaine and we wonder what the deal is with this guy and it's not very long until we learn that one as well. Jackal returns and we wonder what's going on with him, how's he still alive, and how he's connected... we learn the answer fairly quickly.

As I said, the Clone Saga was long, but it brought up a lot of questions, answered them, and moved on to new questions while closing chapters along the way. This is how a story should be told and if you have the patience to follow it it's usually pretty rewarding. The Clone Saga was slated to be a shorter story than it turned out to be, but it was extended because fans were enjoying it and it was selling well... as apposed to BND/OMD where people loathed it before it even started. People started loathing the Clone Saga after Peter was revealed a clone. Heck, before that people loved Ben Riley. Now granted, after that point it really was just a waiting game until they fixed the issue of Peter being a clone, and they really did suck at the execution of that in the end... but the stories brought to you while Ben was Spider-Man were at least good, opened and closed questions, and didn't cause any continuity problems that insulted the readers. Ben being the real spider-man screwed with the readers, but at least it wasn't a continuity issue. It could have made sense, it was just stupid.

The only major problem with the Clone Saga (besides the ending) happened half way through and it really should have been fixed sooner, but at least some good storylines came of it and it didn't screw up the continuity of all of the Marvel Universe as a result (in regards to Spidey's relationships with other books anyhow).

At least half of the Clone Saga (I'm guessing around 17 months) was enjoyable for those who ended up not liking it over all. OMD sucked from issue 2 (I actually enjoyed the 1st issue) and I'm expected to read on for another 30 to 40 issues to see how 4 issues into the story can even make sense? AND THEN keep reading to see what will become of it and wait to see how long it takes to fix it? No, I'll take the Clone Saga thank you.