The Winter Soldier Captain America: The Winter Soldier - User Review Thread! - SPOILERS! - Part 2

[JoCucumber]

People miss that it means he can train and improve more than an Olympic athlete also... Its a weird exponential thing with Cap, because if the human potential is always being raised then his power level is always being raised

 

[hafizbat]

Cap says Zola's tinkering with Bucky helped him survive the fall, but I don't think anyone noticed that he was enchanced in any when he was with Cap and the Howling commandos.

 

[Loki882]

There's also the possibility that he was further experimented on AFTER he was found by the Red Army, or HYDRA, or whoever it was.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

The question for me has always been the definition of "peak human"

Does it mean

a) Max physical capacity of any living person, only he can do everything (running, lifting, leaping, etc) ie he can shatter any and all worlds records singlehandedly

or

b) He is the embodiment of levels of physicality that will only ultimately be duplicated by evolved humans of the far far future, ie the pinnacle of what the human race will itself one day be able to achieve through dedication and intense training

And if that doesn't seem to make sense don't worry because it doesn't to me either.

 

[Minxie]

There's also the possibility that he was further experimented on AFTER he was found by the Red Army, or HYDRA, or whoever it was.

I always thought that was the implication for MCU Bucky. Steve's transformation required several different injections if I remember correctly, so I've been assuming that they'd only just started the process on Bucky when Steve rescued him. Also they didn't have the exact formula that Erskine made so whatever they did to Bucky was experimental and probably done in stages to see how he'd react, step by step. So my headcanon is that they gave him something that made his body resilient enough to withstand injuries that would kill an ordinary person, allowing him to survive the fall like Steve guessed. And at some point after being captured again he was administered the rest of the serum for the super strength. It's even possible that Zola was able to recreate the serum after being invited into Shield and he got himself access to whatever was left of Erskine's research/notes (also didn't they have samples of Steve's blood on file?).

 

[MarvelFan]

 

[TalismanRing]

The question for me has always been the definition of "peak human"

Does it mean

a) Max physical capacity of any living person, only he can do everything (running, lifting, leaping, etc) ie he can shatter any and all worlds records singlehandedly

or

b) He is the embodiment of levels of physicality that will only ultimately be duplicated by evolved humans of the far far future, ie the pinnacle of what the human race will itself one day be able to achieve through dedication and intense training

And if that doesn't seem to make sense don't worry because it doesn't to me either.

I go with the latter. He does some things now no human could. He's the evolutionary peak of the human species married to skill and training. And as those get better so will he - as he does from the first film to this one.

 

[TalismanRing]

I always thought that was the implication for MCU Bucky. Steve's transformation required several different injections if I remember correctly, so I've been assuming that they'd only just started the process on Bucky when Steve rescued him. Also they didn't have the exact formula that Erskine made so whatever they did to Bucky was experimental and probably done in stages to see how he'd react, step by step. So my headcanon is that they gave him something that made his body resilient enough to withstand injuries that would kill an ordinary person, allowing him to survive the fall like Steve guessed. And at some point after being captured again he was administered the rest of the serum for the super strength. It's even possible that Zola was able to recreate the serum after being invited into Shield and he got himself access to whatever was left of Erskine's research/notes (also didn't they have samples of Steve's blood on file?).

I do believe it either had to be in stages or it was a slow acting transformation since Bucky showed no indication of increased physical powers after he was rescued - that was obvious in the train fight when he "died".

Erskine left no notes as far as I can recall. And while stronger and faster than the average human Bucky isn't the peak human that Steve is or as physically powerful as Red Skull was.

Zola working with the Red Skull had access to what was used on him and that's why he was experimenting on soldiers - trying some variation of the formula that Hydra would find useful for stronger soldiers. But I wonder if Red Skull wanted anyone near as powerful as he was - even under his command.

His body also wasn't transformed by the serum or a variation/ bastardization of it as it was with Steve, Red Skull, Hulk or The Abomination . Those physical manifestations all seem to an outward reflection of their psychological make-up. With Bucky - he certainly wasn't evil like Skull, nor did he seem to have huge hidden anger like Bruce but he was a sniper in the army which requires a certain mindset beyond the average for a soldier

So, was the brainwashing and psychological torture required to transform Bucky into making him a killing machine aided by any reaction to the semi-serum that heightened his pre experimentation tendencies or was it just exploiting that more ruthless killer side that always existed?

 

[hafizbat]

I go with the idea that his body has unlocked all the possible potential that the human body is capable of. His muscles are as strong as genetically possible, his speed is as fast as the human race will ever run, his reflexes, memory, flexibility, hand-eye coordination, etc etc is all maxed out.

Basically, he's maxed out the limits of human potential. We see some "phenoms" like Usain Bolt for speed, or the strongest power lifter in the world. Cap would be a phenom in every single physical category.

 

[hafizbat]

His body also wasn't transformed by the serum or a variation/ bastardization of it as it was with Steve, Red Skull, Hulk or The Abomination . Those physical manifestations all seem to an outward reflection of their psychological make-up. With Bucky - he certainly wasn't evil like Skull, nor did he seem to have huge hidden anger like Bruce but he was a sniper in the army which requires a certain mindset beyond the average for a soldier

So, was the brainwashing and psychological torture required to transform Bucky into making him a killing machine aided by any reaction to the semi-serum that heightened his pre experimentation tendencies or was it just exploiting that more ruthless killer side that always existed?

That's a good point. As Erskine said, the serum amplifies whatever is already inside. Good becomes great, bad becomes worse. Bucky always seemed pretty focused, and your idea about a sniper having a higher level of concentration is spot on, IMO.

As the Winter Soldier, Bucky was given a target and had no objective other than to terminate them. Quite similar to pointing a sniper at a target, and taking the shot.

 

[drod1985]

There's also the possibility that he was further experimented on AFTER he was found by the Red Army, or HYDRA, or whoever it was.

Agreed. It's actually pretty obvious that he was experimented on afterwards, given the fact that he's now got the metal arm.

 

[metaphysician]

I go with the latter. He does some things now no human could. He's the evolutionary peak of the human species married to skill and training. And as those get better so will he - as he does from the first film to this one.

Eh, no. In the movies, there's a much simpler answer: he's not peak human. He's superhuman. Simple as that.

 

[hafizbat]

There's no way of telling what the genuine peak of human nature is. What seems "superhuman" could very well be peak human. Today's athletes are getting bigger, stronger, and faster than ever before. Just look at the NFL.

 

[hafizbat]

Furthermore, there have been incidents of humans performing tremendous acts (almost unbelievable) under extraordinary circumstances. Such as lifting cars or boulders when trapped under them. The human body has amazing capabilities, I don't think it should be underestimated. Labeling Captain America as simply superhuman is lazy, IMO. I think the peak of human nature designation is far more interesting.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Seems my internet going out on Monday was a good (or bad) thing as I missed all the fireworks of the TWS/TDK fight.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

You didn't miss much, just more of the same old bs.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Seems my internet going out on Monday was a good (or bad) thing as I missed all the fireworks of the TWS/TDK fight.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=477095

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I think I'll be skipping that thread from now on. A couple posters get exposed as morons over there and some Batman fans do really come off as entitled a-holes. I think I'll stick with my MCU-related forums.

 

[CoherentChaos]

Furthermore, there have been incidents of humans performing tremendous acts (almost unbelievable) under extraordinary circumstances. Such as lifting cars or boulders when trapped under them. The human body has amazing capabilities, I don't think it should be underestimated. Labeling Captain America as simply superhuman is lazy, IMO. I think the peak of human nature designation is far more interesting.

In that case, I'd say Hulk is a better example of "peak human". What with being able to do those tremendous acts casually. In the MCU he's a gamma boosted subversion of a super soldier.

There's just the downside of decreased intelligence and increased aggression. That and not being able to do conventional people things cause walls are basically tissue paper to you and cars as we know them are too small. But if the entire human race suddenly woke up as Professor Hulks (ie, Hulk's with no loss of intelligence), I'm sure we'd adapt to the necessary changes. That and no alien race would ever want to mess with Earth, given that it's entire population could annihilate any invasion with their bare hands.

To me that'd be peak human. Not just Olympian athlete level, but Olympian god levels.

 

[scatterax]

That's the thing though, "peak" human and Olympian should be considered the same thing. Anything more is super human. I always considered cap to be on the edge of peak human and super human, leaning more towards the super side of things. While hulk is extremely super human.

 

[hafizbat]

In that case, I'd say Hulk is a better example of "peak human". What with being able to do those tremendous acts casually. In the MCU he's a gamma boosted subversion of a super soldier.

There's just the downside of decreased intelligence and increased aggression. That and not being able to do conventional people things cause walls are basically tissue paper to you and cars as we know them are too small. But if the entire human race suddenly woke up as Professor Hulks (ie, Hulk's with no loss of intelligence), I'm sure we'd adapt to the necessary changes. That and no alien race would ever want to mess with Earth, given that it's entire population could annihilate any invasion with their bare hands.

To me that'd be peak human. Not just Olympian athlete level, but Olympian god levels.

Wouldn't the Gamma disqualify him from being peak human? I don't think outside forces which drastically alter things can be considered peak human. No matter how much a human trains, I highly doubt they could reach Hulk levels of strength or durability.

With Cap, the SSS simply unlocked the potential of the human body, IMO. All the things he does can theoretically be done by "freaks of nature" in our society. Only thing is, most people can specialize in only one aspect. Cap is like the world's fastest sprinter, the world's strongest powerlifter, swimmer with the best endurance, LeBron James, and other phenoms all combined into one person, which makes him seem superhuman, but he's still peak human.

 

[CGHulk]

Good movie!

 

[CoherentChaos]

I know, I suppose I just have the idealism that the 'pinnacle' of human potential is to go past our limits. At some point you have to cross a fine line between peak human, and transhuman when you think like that. Like I said, for me 'peak' would be whatever physical perfection we can find, to the point that the only way we could improve from there is to exist as something other than physical. But I don't really want to argue interpretations of 'peak', so I'll just concede that I'm a bit crazy.

I already kind of consider Cap to be above human, at least marginally, since for all we know, we're not genetically predisposed to handle all those physical specializations at once. I mean in a way that goes beyond determination. Like is a normal human's metabolism capable of keeping up with such a perfectly honed body? For instance, spider's can only grow as much as the oxygen levels in their environment allow, due to a 'flaw' in their biological design. Stuff like that needs to be surpassed, not just worked around. Not to mention Steve cannot get drunk and if he's anything like Blonsky, can make a full recovery in just a few weeks after having the majority of his skeleton wrecked. There's some weird biology going on there, it's just not super obvious like an 8 foot tall green monster.

How is this all explained as possible? The Super Soldier Serum. It does more than unlock the potential. It expands the potential. It's what allowed Steve to be all these things, and is already an outside force that drastically alters things. No matter how much a human trains, they'll never be able to make the kind of recovery Blonsky did. So what's a bit of gamma radiation on top of that? I just think of gamma as being something that kicked whatever variant of the serum Banner injected himself with, up to 11.

 

[Paladin-Hoss]

Ok...Question:

Am i the only one who wondered WHAT IF the movie cap is more like The Ultimate Cap?

How the movie would've turned out then...

 

[The.Brotherhood]

I hope in A3, cap will have his classic Dragon Scale armor mesh with the modern ones. Have some emphasis on the wings too so it can scream more FINAL JUSTICE to it.