Captain Marvel General Discussion and Speculation

[starwolf_oakley]

Interactions between them while he's undercover (see above) could hint at that. Also, you could show discussions with YR that Carol isn't privy to: "You want me to do what? But that'll kill her!" "That's the point, Mar-Vell!"

Mar-Vell and Yon-Rogg as friends turned foes over the fate of humanity sounds like it could work. Of course, Mar-Vell deciding to turn on his own people because he fell in love with Carol Danvers enters into "old school 1950s sci-fi movies."

And, of course, Carol will have to be her own character outside of "kidnapped female who convinces the hero not to destroy mankind." Of course, Carol being a decorated Air Force pilot works in that regard.

 

[Loki882]

I'm REALLY not keen on the idea of Carol being a sidekick for the first movie, or only getting her powers near the end. That's essentially a wasted movie. That didn't happen with Iron Man, or Thor, or Captain America, etc, and it shouldn't happen with Carol.

 

[DrCosmic]

They have the shared rights to Quicksilver, Skrulls and Ronan. I mean, Deathbird originated as a Ms. Marvel foe and the Brood were always Carol's enemies. During their first appearance, she was fighting alongside the X-Men and then later on, she fought them a number of times in her solo adventures.

Regardless of where they've originated, the Brood has hundreds of appearances in X-Men tittles and less than 10 with Ms. Marvel. Deathbird is similar. They are overwhelmingly X-Men characters.

 

[cph9fa]

And, of course, Carol will have to be her own character outside of "kidnapped female who convinces the hero not to destroy mankind."

I'm REALLY not keen on the idea of Carol being a sidekick for the first movie

Absolutely! I really hope it didn't sound like I was suggesting either of those. It certainly wasn't the intention.

 

[Chance Jackson]

I've got it! Time Travel!

For the fans, basically, switch Kang in for Thanos. For the execs, I'd pitch Captain Marvel as Star Trek meets Mr. and Mrs. Smith. A Time Travel Romance Hard Sci fi action movie, with the glitzy Tron sci fi and not the pulpy Star Wars Sci-fi of Guardians of the Galaxy. TV Tropes links for everything, including Mar-Vell and Carol Danvers

The story? Classic with a twist. Mar-Vell would be the Decoy Protagonist dying to be replacedduring the second half of the film, while Carol would be the Deuteragonist (secondary protagonist) until she Takes up Mar-Vell's sword. after his Dying Moment of Awesome.

The two would be Star Crossed Lovers because Mar-Vell would be a Uber Soldier with Alien MacGuffins from a Bad Future working for an Time Traveling Conqueror like Kang as an advanced agent who is Secretly dying and ends up In love with the Mark, and her Contagious Heroism, and wanting to atone for his misdeeds as a conqueror but is faced with the Time Traveller's Dilemma. Meanwhile, Carol Danvers is a Majorly Awesomeaction girl Badass Normal IronWoobie Avengers Fangirl, who becomes a Violently Protective Girlfriend and eventually a bonafide Superhero after they are Bequeathed Power.

Through all this, they are involved in a Stern Chase/The Most Dangerous game as they are pursued both by law enforcement, whom Carol worked for as well as Kang's Kree Chrono Enforcment Squadron (or something), which Mar-Vell worked for. The duo becomes a Battle Couple while Flirting Under Fire as Carol adjusts to her genetic modifications before they are eventually caught by their pursuers, Mar-Vell becoming a Trojan Prisoner, Carol being a Badass in Distress until Mar-Vell's Heroic Sacrifice and gives her his Final Speech about how she is the hero and gives his Dying Declaration of Love, giving Carol his negaband macguffin (which will double as a Tragic Keepsake) and starts her Roaring Rampage of Revenge and becomes the Legacy Character we all know and love her to be.

That's a lot of tropes... I haven't even touched the villains, but you get the idea. Time Travel as Carol's unique 'thing.' I'd also give her a Binary-inspired costume and Monica Rambeau's powers rather than the current costume and powers. She'd still end up with the Captain Marvel codename, but there's no way she'd be passed of as a superman wannabe, or redundant with any of the other characters. Not on my watch. Mar-Vell would have all of that, plus the extreme physicality from his Kree armor.

I'm not a huge fan of time travel plots but I could see myself watching something like this.

 

[Hawkingbird]

Absolutely! I really hope it didn't sound like I was suggesting either of those. It certainly wasn't the intention.

If I'm honest, I don't want a love interest at all.

 

[cph9fa]

If I'm honest, I don't want a love interest at all.

I've pretty much been coming around to this conclusion as well (having originally -- in a previous thread -- suggested romance as a potential "unique genre", I've since abandoned that idea).

 

[Silvermoth]

I don't mind a love interest if it works. If it's just there like tauriel in the hobbit then send it back please.

Romance is nothing to be frightened of tbh and I think carol can still be tough and independent as well as do all the usual stuff humans do

 

[Hawkingbird]

I don't really like romances in super hero films. It's way over used.

 

[Chance Jackson]

What if a dying Mar-Vell fused with Danvers in a "Birdy the Mighty" kind of way(except using Mar-Vell's power with Danvers' body) this way we get:

-Both characters
-An origin for Ms/Captain Marvel
-To avoid a romance plot

 

[Silvermoth]

I like romances .

When someone mentioned there wasn't a prince in frozen I was a little sad (mainly because I like the fan service) but I still like the romance in that.

If captain marvel had a romance like that I wouldn't mind

 

[Loki882]

Romances aren't a problem in and of themselves. The problems begin when that's the MAIN focus of the movie. I don't care if the protagonist of a CBM has a romance, on two conditions:
1. That's is done well.
2. That it isn't ALL that there is to the character.
Unfortunately, female characters tend to not have much luck with either of these points.

 

[Chance Jackson]

I like romances .

When someone mentioned there wasn't a prince in frozen I was a little sad (mainly because I like the fan service) but I still like the romance in that.

If captain marvel had a romance like that I wouldn't mind

Romances aren't a problem in and of themselves. The problems begin when that's the MAIN focus of the movie. I don't care if the protagonist of a CBM has a romance, on two conditions:
1. That's is done well.
2. That it isn't ALL that there is to the character.
Unfortunately, female characters tend to not have much luck with either of these points.

The problem with romances is they are often hard to do right and they take away valuable screen time from other parts of the movie see T:TDW for an egregious example. How much better would that movie have been if Jane wasn't made plot relevant by being a host to the macguffin and instead that time were spent on Malkeith and Kurse and making them villains to care about I'm sure there is footage of them that would have helped in this regard but it was cut.

 

[Hawkingbird]

I really don't like the Pepper x Tony romance. I love Pepper in the comics and I wish they had developed her more as a character rather than a love interest.

 

[DrCosmic]

They're not going to do an film without romance, especially with a female character. "Why is the woman the only one who can't find love and still be a great superhero?" Let's talk about how to make it good.

Even TDW, taking away from the Jane screen time, largely with Thor, wouldn't have made for a better film. The issue was that Loki was the villain, and Malkeith was just a plot device to drive Loki's development. Unless you wanted Malkeith to be the one traveling with Thor, Jane was not even partly the problem. Loki took the villain time, not Jane.

And you don't have to like Pepper, but she's an equal love interest, which is rare. Tony needs her, to the point that she saved to world... not too far from Jane in TDW, now that I think about it.

 

[metaphysician]

Except that Pepper got better writing and characterization, largely. I think Thor 2 would have been improved if it were Jane doing more of the science stuff. She basically spent the movie as a macguffin.

 

[Chance Jackson]

They're not going to do an film without romance, especially with a female character. "Why is the woman the only one who can't find love and still be a great superhero?" Let's talk about how to make it good.

Cause it more or less feels like women are only in these stories for romantic reasons or to be figures of desire. Doing a Ms.Marvel movie without any of that or her needing to be saved would turn those overused trope on its head

Even TDW, taking away from the Jane screen time, largely with Thor, wouldn't have made for a better film.

There was plenty of stuff on earth that could have been cut for Malkeith.

Lets examine the plot for a bit: Jane discovers and then hosts the Aether(unnecessary), so she can travel to Asgard where they ultimately can't help(waste of time) and then to Svartleheim so they can deliver the Aether to Malkeith(dumb plan), so that Thor can fail to destroy the invincible plot device(obviously destined to fail) and setup the third act's crisis (all together pretty convoluted plot that makes Jane discovering/hosting/extracting the Aether a priority for a good chunk of the movie)

Branagh's Odin would have banished Thor(if not imprisoned) for the stupidity and arrogance he showed in putting all the nine realms in such needless Jeopardy for no better reason than to save his love

The issue was that Loki was the villain, and Malkeith was just a plot device to drive Loki's development. Unless you wanted Malkeith to be the one traveling with Thor, Jane was not even partly the problem. Loki took the villain time, not Jane.

They gave us more Loki cause the fans and the fangirls clamored for more Loki in light of that Jane's role should of been reduced but given the way they forced her into being necessary to the plot they could not reduce her role without major rewrites

And you don't have to like Pepper, but she's an equal love interest, which is rare. Tony needs her, to the point that she saved to world... not too far from Jane in TDW, now that I think about it.

Jane and Pepper are not on the same level. I like Pepper, less as an Extremis Meta Human though

 

[Loki882]

Pepper got more to do and development in the movies then she got in the comics for decades. In fact, it was only after the movies started that they really started using her a lot in the comics again.

 

[Loki882]

Cause it more or less feels like women are only in these stories for romantic reasons or to be figures of desire. Doing a Ms.Marvel movie without any of that or her needing to be saved would turn those overused trope on its headThere was plenty of stuff on earth that could have been cut for Malkeith.

Lets examine the plot for a bit: Jane discovers and then hosts the Aether(unnecessary), so she can travel to Asgard where they ultimately can't help(waste of time) and then to Svartleheim so they can deliver the Aether to Malkeith(dumb plan), so that Thor can fail to destroy the invincible plot device(obviously destined to fail) and setup the third act's crisis (all together pretty convoluted plot that makes Jane discovering/hosting/extracting the Aether a priority for a good chunk of the movie)

Branagh's Odin would have banished Thor(if not imprisoned) for the stupidity and arrogance he showed in putting all the nine realms in such needless Jeopardy for no better reason than to save his love

They gave us more Loki cause the fans and the fangirls clamored for more Loki in light of that Jane's role should of been reduced but given the way they forced her into being necessary to the plot they could not reduce her role without major rewrites

Jane and Pepper are not on the same level. I like Pepper, less as an Extremis Meta Human though

Except that problem with that is that when most male superhero movies include a love interest, and then the first big female led one doesn't, it is just weird. It comes across more as yet another lack of confidence in female characters on the studios part. "We're more than willing to let the men get a romance, but we can't do it for the female because it won't work."

 

[DrCosmic]

Except that Pepper got better writing and characterization, largely. I think Thor 2 would have been improved if it were Jane doing more of the science stuff. She basically spent the movie as a macguffin.

Agreed... or if her being the MacGuffin was relevant to anything other than Thor's angst... or if Thor had something to do other than angst over the MacGuffin. The more I think about that movie the less I like it.

Cause it more or less feels like women are only in these stories for romantic reasons or to be figures of desire. Doing a Ms.Marvel movie without any of that or her needing to be saved would turn those overused trope on its head.

It does not invert the trope. Inverting the trope would be having a man who is only there for romantic reasons for Carol. Subverting it would be what the rest of the MCU does, giving her additional reasons. Also... romance is appealing, and broadens the appeal of a summer blockbuster.

So to ignore romance instead of turning it on it's head, is not only not helpful, it's not only not what the MCU does, but it misses a great opportunity to actually do a love interest well, from a fresh perspective. I think Hunger Games did a BRILLIANT job with this, having her love triangle be between someone who treated her like a typical love interest and someone whom she treated like a typical love interest. Other less successful female actioners have gone the 'kill him off' route, and that's okay, I guess, if you're doing a lower budget thing and you only want people who just want action to see your film.

Lets examine the plot for a bit: Jane discovers and then hosts the Aether(unnecessary), so she can travel to Asgard where they ultimately can't help(waste of time) and then to Svartleheim so they can deliver the Aether to Malkeith(dumb plan), so that Thor can fail to destroy the invincible plot device(obviously destined to fail) and setup the third act's crisis (all together pretty convoluted plot that makes Jane discovering/hosting/extracting the Aether a priority for a good chunk of the movie)

I agree it took up time, but none of that time could have been given to Malkeith. Someone had to discover interact with the Aether to show us its importance on a visceral level. It didn't have to be Jane, but it couldn't be Malkeith because that would end the movie. Someone had to be the eyes of the audience on Asgard, couldn't be Malkeith. Malkeith was on the dark world, and got more development there than Jane did.

Was it poorly done? Yes. Could you have taken that screen time and given it to Malkeith? No, it really couldn't have.

Branagh's Odin would have banished Thor(if not imprisoned) for the stupidity and arrogance he showed in putting all the nine realms in such needless Jeopardy for no better reason than to save his love

They gave us more Loki cause the fans and the fangirls clamored for more Loki in light of that Jane's role should of been reduced but given the way they forced her into being necessary to the plot they could not reduce her role without major rewrites

I agreed, they couldn't reduce Jane's role, and they gave us more Loki. So who's role did they reduce? What character in the movie was important but vastly underdeveloped?

Malkeith.

Jane and Pepper are not on the same level. I like Pepper, less as an Extremis Meta Human though

Totally agreed. But they tried to do the same thing with Jane and let her be both the motivation for the hero, the object for the villain and the one that saves the day. But again, not well done, and agreed, not on the same level.

 

[DrCosmic]

Overall on the romance, at this point, I'm thinking let's mimic Hunger Games. Give her two love interests. Mar-Vell, who's like the bad guy unattainable angst-machine, and, say, Rick Jones, who's like, lovably pitifully unready, but totally loyal.

I also would consider having a non-love interest, like someone who she's supposed to save.

I'm not a huge fan of time travel plots but I could see myself watching something like this.

Thanks.

I'm REALLY not keen on the idea of Carol being a sidekick for the first movie, or only getting her powers near the end. That's essentially a wasted movie. That didn't happen with Iron Man, or Thor, or Captain America, etc, and it shouldn't happen with Carol.

I agree actually. The more I think about it, she needs to get her powers near the beginning. I would have her be extremely unskilled. I wouldn't have her master her powers as quickly as they did, because I think her story works better without it, just like Thor's works better with him going without powers for most of it.

I understand this, and agree with you. But just to clarify, I was thinking of it as an obstacle to be dealt with by the end of the movie, not an inherent part of her personality. Think in terms of Iron Man's PTSD freak-outs in IM3. Or even like Cap in TFA trying to drown his sorrows when Bucky died. I just feel like there should be some type of psychological component to what Carol faces and overcomes. Like I said, I'm no psychiatrist (but neither is Hollywood), so I won't pretend to know what to call it, or how it would play out.

I think the blackouts are enough. It's more visceral and easier to visualize (and not get confused with her natural persona) than bipolar. For bipolar to work on a comic book level you'd kinda have to have her thing glow red sometimes and blue others something, which makes it a bit too metaphorical. Blackouts are simpler to show and resolve: she's afraid to see the truth of what's happened to her, so she blacks it out, and part of her big 'realization' is seeing what was done to her.

This is probably a good point to mention that I'm seeing it as two abduction events -- one at the end of Act I, which begins her transformational process (which has been largely mind-wiped, and is only seen in short vague flashes), and one at the end of Act II, after this process has run its course (which is when she escapes). In the meantime (during Act II), Carol is "released" back to Earth and observed by "Lawson" -- like tagging an animal and releasing it back to the wild. This in-between period is when any kind of psychological side-effects would be present. It also gives her and "Lawson" an opportunity to interact without her knowing that he's the "bad guy" -- until she has another flashback and sees his face in the abduction room, and realizes he's one of them.

That is a cool moment, the flashback realization, early in the film. I think two abductions is weird, but I think if the second one is a more traditional action sequence it could work.

I've been having trouble figuring out how this scene would play out, so this is a good idea.

Explosions make everything better! t:

Interactions between them while he's undercover (see above) could hint at that. Also, you could show discussions with YR that Carol isn't privy to: "You want me to do what? But that'll kill her!" "That's the point, Mar-Vell!"

Yeah, I'm definitely getting a Darth Vader vibe hear. A concealing mask, even if it's a stoic facial expression, seems appropriate for Mar-Vell. Let the audience project onto him.

Regardless, here's another question for the group:

Who is Carol's supporting cast?

 

[KangConquers]

Overall on the romance, at this point, I'm thinking let's mimic Hunger Games. Give her two love interests. Mar-Vell, who's like the bad guy unattainable angst-machine, and, say, Rick Jones, who's like, lovably pitifully unready, but totally loyal.

I also would consider having a non-love interest, like someone who she's supposed to save.



Thanks.



I agree actually. The more I think about it, she needs to get her powers near the beginning. I would have her be extremely unskilled. I wouldn't have her master her powers as quickly as they did, because I think her story works better without it, just like Thor's works better with him going without powers for most of it.



I think the blackouts are enough. It's more visceral and easier to visualize (and not get confused with her natural persona) than bipolar. For bipolar to work on a comic book level you'd kinda have to have her thing glow red sometimes and blue others something, which makes it a bit too metaphorical. Blackouts are simpler to show and resolve: she's afraid to see the truth of what's happened to her, so she blacks it out, and part of her big 'realization' is seeing what was done to her.



That is a cool moment, the flashback realization, early in the film. I think two abductions is weird, but I think if the second one is a more traditional action sequence it could work.



Explosions make everything better! t:



Yeah, I'm definitely getting a Darth Vader vibe hear. A concealing mask, even if it's a stoic facial expression, seems appropriate for Mar-Vell. Let the audience project onto him.

Regardless, here's another question for the group:

Who is Carol's supporting cast?

Carol ...really doesn't have much of a supporting cast...nor much of a rogues gallery...that's one reason I find making a movie for her so hard. Everything is kind of borrowed.

 

[DrCosmic]

Lol, agreed, so who would you borrow?

 

[cph9fa]

I agree actually. The more I think about it, she needs to get her powers near the beginning. I would have her be extremely unskilled. I wouldn't have her master her powers as quickly as they did, because I think her story works better without it, just like Thor's works better with him going without powers for most of it.

I'll have to think about this. Iron Man didn't have his Mk II suit complete until almost exactly the midpoint of the film (I was just rewatching it the other night, with an eye towards timing when the various plot points occur). And Thor didn't recover his hammer until the end of Act II. Of course, in both cases, they had some super-powered action earlier in the film -- Thor before banishment, and Iron Man with the short-lived Mk I.

Things that will influence this pacing is what the overall theme of film is, what type of character development Carol has to undergo, and the exact nature of her power -- what all can it do and what are it's limitations...

I think two abductions is weird, but I think if the second one is a more traditional action sequence it could work.

Yeah, the second one actually makes more sense if Carol flies up to the Kree ship herself (I'm just trying to get her there for Act III).

Regardless, here's another question for the group:

Who is Carol's supporting cast?

Besides Mar-Vell, Yon-Rogg, possibly Ronan, and other Kree...

- Her family (parents and two younger brothers) -- either in flashback or modern times.
- Chewie (gotta have the cat! t
- Col. Michael Rossi (her supervisor and a Reasonable Authority Figure)
- Tracy Burke (an old friend and confidant)
- Frank Gianelli (a free-lance reporter and would-be charmer; perhaps someone she needs to rescue at some point)
- Michael Barnett (psychiatrist)
- Dr. Kerwin Korman (if you need some kind of scientist)
- Jessica Drew (SHIELD liason... But only if they don't already have better plans for her)
- Col. James Rhodes (shameless cameo)

Edit: On a side note, I finally got around to seeing Man of Steel today, and was having fun imagining Kal'El & Zod as Mar-Vell and Yon-Rogg. It really clicked for me how Mar-Vell was Marvel's Superman knock-off.

 

[Loki882]

I thought that Sentry was Marvel's Superman knock-off, or perhaps Blue Marvel, or even Hyperion? I've never really thought of Mar-Vell in that way.