The Dark Knight Rises Catwoman Discussion Thread

[Keyser Sushi]

They really look like each other...the only thing different is the hair.

Except... No, wait... You're right. Justin Beiber probably DOES have a vagina.

 

[baleheadbrasil]

Except... No, wait... You're right. Justin Beiber probably DOES have a vagina.

I´m talking about the face. t:

 

[Timstuff]

I love Ellen Page, but her as Catwoman would be at least as terrible as Kate Bosworth as Lois Lane.

 

[Lungrocket]

............................

just sayin...

Maybe she could play the female Robin. That would certainly remove the homosexual undertones to the dynamic duo.

 

[DCRanger]

Marion Cottilard is my first choice.
Rachel Weisz would by my second choice.

Anyone else would be a major dissapointment.

I can't even imagine this trilogy without Catwoman.
Catwoman is one of the best three Batman villains of all time. JMO.

Rachel McAdams would be my choice for Harley Quin. Odd choice? Well Heath wasn't most people's choice for Joker - but that turned out brilliant.

 

[Chiroptera]

Maybe she could play the female Robin. That would certainly remove the homosexual undertones to the dynamic duo.

Thats True...


It will just make batman a Pedophile

 

[The Guard]

I like Ellen Page, too, but she's not anything resembling intense enough for this role. And yes, I've seen HARD CANDY.

 

[Mr. Earle]

The fact that we've spent two pages of the Catwoman thread talking about Ellen Page... my god! We might as well be talking about Rob Schneider for Catwoman.

 

[The Demon's Head]

Her story, if done right, could be the backbone of the film, just like Dent's story was in TDK.

Personally, I think they should abandon the jewel thief angle, and turn her into a vigilante who represents a dark mirror of Batman. She has no problem killing criminals, while stealing their money in the process, perhaps donating it to Leslie Thompkins' clinic in the Narrows.

If Black Mask in the film, and is Gotham's New Kingpin, They should make him a part of her origin. They can even do that by drawing from the source material. During Brubaker's run on Catwoman, Black Mask kidnapped Selina's sister and her brother in law. He killed the husband, and made her sister eat his corpse. Now, that might be a bit much for a PG-13 film, but they can change it to Black Mask killing her sister at some point. Selina is driven by revenge, just like Bruce initially was before Chill's death, and Dent was in TDK. TDKR's finale could involve Batman trying to stop Catwoman from killing Black Mask, in order to save her from Dent's fate. I think that would be quite an epic finale.

What do you think?

 

[Mr. Earle]

They 've already tackled the kill - do not kill theme twice, with Ras and the Joker. I'd like them to move on, not to mention that Catwoman never worked in that capacity. It was always some anti-hero like Azrael or Jason Todd.

Catwoman is the selfish one, being in the superhero world for her own gain, not caring about the heroes or the villains or what happens to Gotham. If you've watched Supernatural Selina is exactly like that Bella chick.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

The fact that we've spent two pages of the Catwoman thread talking about Ellen Page... my god! We might as well be talking about Rob Schneider for Catwoman.

Most of the discussion has had more to do with whether or not she's attractive, not whether she's right for the role. I think most of us agree that she is very very wrong for Catwoman.

With that said...we've been completely off-topic...so we probably ought to knock it off lest Mr. Lee ease the hammer down.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Yeah, you're right. So i have a lot of candidates in mind, but most of them would only work against a younger Batman. While Batman is supposedly at the start of his career, Bale looks in his mid 30ies, so...

 

[Sky Captain]

Hey, that Diane Kruger lady sure looks nice...

 

[Gail]

My choice is Thandie Newton. She has a feline like quality about her that I find sexy. That and I think she'd work well with Christian Bale.

 

[regwec]

I have always liked her for the role, though she might be getting on a bit now.

 

[itsthebatman]

The fact that we've spent two pages of the Catwoman thread talking about Ellen Page... my god! We might as well be talking about Rob Schneider for Catwoman.

Yikes, two pages on Ellen Page as Catwoman? Catgirl, more like.

Do we have ANY idea which actresses the makers have been meeting with this week?

 

[DCRanger]

Her story, if done right, could be the backbone of the film, just like Dent's story was in TDK.


TDKR's finale could involve Batman trying to stop Catwoman from killing Black Mask, in order to save her from Dent's fate. I think that would be quite an epic finale.

What do you think?

ITA. That would be an epic finale... and that is what I've always pictured for the third movie (Selina's fate opposite Harvey Dent's).

I copied (quote) only the parts that I really liked. I personally like the idea of Catwoman being a jewel thief and/or stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. I think this could incorporate well with Black Mask somehow.

I like the idea of Rich Man/Poor Woman - so I think Brue Wayne and Selina Kyle would make for great "opposites attract". I'm all for a romantic storyline between Bruce and Selina... but not while he is in the Batsuit and she's in the catsuit.

So that there isn't a ton of characters in TDKR... I would avoid Selina's sister's husband. At some point in the movie... I'd just have Black Mask attempt killing Catwoman (or Selina's sister)... thus Catwoman wanting to kill Black Mask (at the end of the movie).

 

[flickchick85]

Hmmm...at first, I liked the suggestion of Catwoman being bent on revenge (for the murder of her sister or something similar), but after thinking about it, I think that would almost cheapen her motives. I like Brubaker's Catwoman, because she's driven by something bigger than herself - like Batman, not like Nolan's Two-Face (notice I didn't say Dent). Her crusade against the cops, Black Mask, etc. isn't about HER, or her loss. It's about Gotham.

I do support the idea of her being a dark mirror of Batman, though - she's not afraid to kill (especially Black Mask, which she does in the comics, and his people), and she's not afraid to screw things up royally for the police, but she still sees herself as serving the same higher purpose as Batman. He just can't accept or condone her because she doesn't follow his "rules" and enjoys it far too much.

I'd be ok with Black Mask making things personal at some point over the course of the movie (with her sister or whatever) though, and having Batman trying stop her at the end from going overboard or mad with revenge. That part could still be compelling. But I don't think I'd want that to be the motivation for her becoming Catwoman in the first place.

 

[Doc Samson]

Personally, I think they should abandon the jewel thief angle, and turn her into a vigilante who represents a dark mirror of Batman.

This is my main issue with Catwoman. For her to be interesting, at least IMO, you would have to take this approach, but it's already been done, and in numerous ways.

Ras was a dark mirror to Bruce Wayne. He had a similar experience, but instead of fighting crime within the limits of legality, he takes a more vindictive stance, while still using the same techniques.

The Joker was a dark mirror to Batman as well, as he always is. Where one is stoic, driven by a specific goal and mission, and entirely serious, the other makes a mockery of being specific, or having any morals or code. He uses theatrics just like Batman, presumably, exists only because of Batman, and judges himself against the competition with Batman.

Harvey could also be seen as a mirror of Batman in terms of duality. Once again, we have someone who endures a horrible experience, and becomes two different individuals disenfranchised with the system because of it. Not only that but Nolan's version is made to represent that mirror even more with his relationship to Rachel, and more prominently, being seen as the "White Knight."

I just don't see what would be new or different about Catwoman besides the fact that she's a female, and as we all know, we absolutely must have a female lead

 

[flickchick85]

This is my main issue with Catwoman. For her to be interesting, at least IMO, you would have to take this approach, but it's already been done, and in numerous ways.

Ras was a dark mirror to Bruce Wayne. He had a similar experience, but instead of fighting crime within the limits of legality, he takes a more vindictive stance, while still using the same techniques.

The Joker was a dark mirror to Batman as well, as he always is. Where one is stoic, driven by a specific goal and mission, and entirely serious, the other makes a mockery of being specific, or having any morals or code. He uses theatrics just like Batman, presumably, exists only because of Batman, and judges himself against the competition with Batman.

Harvey could also be seen as a mirror of Batman in terms of duality. Once again, we have someone who endures a horrible experience, and becomes two different individuals disenfranchised with the system because of it. Not only that but Nolan's version is made to represent that mirror even more with his relationship to Rachel, and more prominently, being seen as the "White Knight."

I just don't see what would be new or different about Catwoman besides the fact that she's a female, and as we all know, we absolutely must have a female lead

Those characters just had similarities to Batman. As you could probably find with ANY one of his rogue's gallery if you tried. Catwoman is very much the same character as Batman in many ways, except she doesn't play by his rules.

I think she could be interesting in that, with her Robin Hood-esque ways, she could be seen by the people of the East End (or The Narrows) as something of a hero, while Batman, despite his stronger moral compass, is seen as a menace. The Joker and Ra's never actually came close to "tempting" Bruce toward their way of thinking. Catwoman could come dangerously close to that, because in most ways, she makes sense, she's actually helping, the people might support her, and she doesn't seem insane in the slightest.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

This is my main issue with Catwoman. For her to be interesting, at least IMO, you would have to take this approach, but it's already been done, and in numerous ways.

Ras was a dark mirror to Bruce Wayne. He had a similar experience, but instead of fighting crime within the limits of legality, he takes a more vindictive stance, while still using the same techniques.

The Joker was a dark mirror to Batman as well, as he always is. Where one is stoic, driven by a specific goal and mission, and entirely serious, the other makes a mockery of being specific, or having any morals or code. He uses theatrics just like Batman, presumably, exists only because of Batman, and judges himself against the competition with Batman.

Harvey could also be seen as a mirror of Batman in terms of duality. Once again, we have someone who endures a horrible experience, and becomes two different individuals disenfranchised with the system because of it. Not only that but Nolan's version is made to represent that mirror even more with his relationship to Rachel, and more prominently, being seen as the "White Knight."

I just don't see what would be new or different about Catwoman besides the fact that she's a female, and as we all know, we absolutely must have a female lead

But Doc... most of Batman's major villains represent a dark mirror on Batman himself. That's part of what makes them good.

When you're writing a story about two characters striving with each other there needs to be a connection between them of some kind, and more importantly there needs to be a reason why exploring either character helps to better define and characterize the other. That's just good storytelling.

In an instance where we're dealing with a redemption storyline, there are so many scenarios where a character who mirrors Batman can help to drive that story.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

I could see Ellen Page playing Holly. But Holly will most likely not be in the film, and even if she was, it wouldn't be a big enough part to cast Ellen Page for.

So...nevermind.

 

[namtaB]

Ellen Page doesn't have the maturity for the part. She reminds me a lot of Winona Ryder in the early 90s. Good actress but can have a tendency to be miscast for a particular role b/c it requires a maturity that she lacks. Catwoman is such a role.

 

[protoctista]

When you're writing a story about two characters striving with each other there needs to be a connection between them of some kind, and more importantly there needs to be a reason why exploring either character helps to better define and characterize the other. That's just good storytelling.

I do in some parts agree with this, so don't come back at me with 'your mum' jokes... (joke)

But; I also don't agree. All superhero stories seem to try and create a villain that is reflection of the hero. The most brilliant aspect of the Joker is that he doesn't mirror Batman at all - he's a complete opposite. But more interestingly - and this is crucial - not a perfect opposite either (I mean, who would say that the opposite of a bat-dressed vigilante is a psycopath clown?). The Joker's 'themes and motives' are not necessarily parallel, complimentary or opposite to Batmans - or if they are one of these things - they are not strictly so; and may be fluid between them. Some writers will delve into these arch-enemies' similarities, some into their complimentary nature, some into their inversions of the other - but the best writers recognise that ALL of these are true, and more.

Lots of other super-villains in the superhero genre were created out of direct contemplations of the hero. Sam Raimi always talked to the press about 'trying to find a villain that would best suit Peter Parker's path of growth'. The Batman mythos has the greatest rogues gallery of any super-hero (I dont care what fan you are, it's undeniable) - and each of them are fascinating characters on their own - but many of them still operate in ways that parallel, compliment or inverse the motives or themes of either Bruce Wayne or Batman. This isn't a negative - it creates exciting stories (and even the issue of cause-effect, which Nolan is so keen to explore). But it's also exciting to have a character that literally operates on their own, that has an entirely self-contained arch that just happens to cross the path of our heroes arch (rather than wrap around it for the sake of drawing comparisms). Think for example about Han Solo and Luke Skywalker; sure they're opposites - but that's not to say that their opposite qualities are what define the characters.

Maybe this is all rubbishy nonsense, but somewhere I feel I have a point - and that is:

When we consider the possibilities of Catwoman's character (and her arch); do we HAVE to consider what interesting ways she could mirror Batman? Or can we establish her goals/themes autonomously to Batman/Bruce Wayne's, and then set the two of them loose like spinning tops - with their OWN motions/motives - in the same world to see what happens when they collide?

In my opinion, this is how great characters are formed - when they can completely feasibly operate on their own and be interesting without being wrapped around the narrative of the central hero. It may still be that they would never be AS interesting unless in contention with OUR hero... but that element should still be there. The trick is to get two characters we love, throw them together, and see what happens when they interact.

 

[ScarecrowMan666]

At this point, I don't really care who she plays, I just want Ellen Page in a Batman film. Perhaps Harley Quinn? and please don't kill me this time.