Contest of Marvels II Thread 1

[Phaedrus45]

Location: AVALON

Avalon was a fictional space station inhabited by the Acolytes, a cult devoted to Magneto and his views on human-mutant relations. It first appeared in the Fatal Attractions storyline in Marvel Comics's X-Men books.
Avalon was originally named Greymalkin, and was the property of Cable. An interesting part of Greymalkin's construction was its Professor, not to be confused with Professor X. Greymalkin faked its destruction when S.H.I.E.L.D. tried to take it over, dumping parts in the ocean and in X-force's base, but the remaining parts, including its core remained, now using cloaking to hide itself.
Magneto discovered the abandoned space-station, deactivated the Professor and used Shi'ar technology to expand it, turning it into his new base and sending out his new servant Exodus to bring worthy mutants to it. His first choice were several members of X-force, who had been students of Magneto when they were part of the New Mutants. X-force leader, Cable, followed them and managed to disable Avalon's teleportation system and copy the Professor from the core of the station into his own techno-organic bodyparts. Cable and his team escaped, but former New Mutants Rusty Collins and Skids remained on Avalon with Magneto.
Shortly afterwards, Magneto sent Exodus to bring his followers, the Acolytes, to Avalon as well. He declared that Avalon would be a safe heaven for all mutants, away from humanity. The X-Men battled Magneto and he was put into a coma. Exodus took over the leadership of the Acolytes and Avalon. The Acolyte Milan repaired the teleportation systems of Avalon.
Avalon was destroyed by a battle between Holocaust and Exodus. Exodus tried to gather the pieces of Avalon to rebuilt it shortly afterwards, but halted his plans when Joseph turned up, thinking that Joseph was Magneto. Pieces of Avalon and Greymalkin were later gathered by Cable to build the island of Providence, his current base of operations.
Avalon is also shown and is a level on the SNES Game X-Men: Mutant Apocalypse and on the Sega Genesis game X-Men 2: Clone Wars. In Magneto's ending in Marvel Super Heroes, he uses the Infinity Gauntlet to create a new Avalon, an entire moon to serve as a homeworld for Mutantkind.

 

[Harlekin]

OPENING COMMENTS: Black Panther vs Savage Hulk

For this one, I'll also borrow a page from Black Panther's matches, because it's much easier to repost these things. What is the one thing that defines the Panther? Prep-time. So, first off, let's handle his powers and pointing you to some great respect threads.

Strength, speed and endurance

Marvel Directory.Com: The Black Panther is near the pinnicle of human physical perfection, his natural strength and abilities having been heightened by unidentified heart-shaped herb administered only to Wakandan kings during a sacred ascension ritual. The herb is also only in Wakanda. While not superhuman, he is nearly as strong as a human being can become. He can lift (press) a maximum of 750 pounds with supreme effort.

Other skills

Marvel Directory.Com: An accomplished gymnast and acrobat, T'Challa is also an expert tracker. In addition, he has mastered various African martial arts.

Standard equipment

Marvel Directory.Com: T'Challa's Vibranium micro-weave bodysuit not only stops bullets, but saps their momentum. His boots' Vibranium soles absorb sound and impact -- enabling him to leap from structures up to eight stories tall and land without injury, and literally run up the sides of buildings. The Panther's retractable claws contain a new composite of the experimental "anti-metal" Vibranium that can break down other alloys. T'Challa wields an energy dagger that can be fired, thrown or handled like a knife. At its highest setting, the weapon easily can cut through forged steel.

For more of an idea of what the Panther can do, I invite you to look at this respect thread, detailing some of the awesome feats he's pulled off. Let's recap a few things here: Black Panther originally tested himself against the Fantastic Four, he's stared down Iron Man, has held his own against guys like Captain America, Iron Fist, Ka-Zar and Wolverine. Heck, he recently one-punched Karnak. Now anyone who still doubts the awesomeness of the Panther, can take a look at this particular thread, which gives a play-by-play of the Panther's feats, by year!

You might notice that the Panther and Hulk have faced off before. First off in Avengers Annual #2, where the Black Panther is capable to keep standing. He's not fighting the Hulk as much as he's stalling for time. I want to note that before that, the Panther also took down the Thing back in his first appearance, and was later even capable of single-handidly taking down the New Warriors (including Nova, Speedball and Namorita).

Now, he faces Hulk again with in an issue of Defenders. Another important battle is in Priest's run, where he is capable of hanging with the Savage Hulk once again. He'll be able to survive close combat thanks to his vibranium. You can see a page from that fight here. Interesting to see as well is him robbing the momentum from a Hulk-thrown car, here.

Of course, these are not Panther's greatest assets. He's a technological and scientific genius. Exempting for one moment the possibility that Panther is able to (temporarily) cure Banner, he's got numerous devices to aid him. He's got sonic blasters, vibranium cages, you name it. He's got the resources of the Von Doom/Richards caliber. Let's also not forget that the Panther is in his natural element here - the jungle. This is David and Goliath while David is holding a really really big gun.

So, beyond the fact that the Panther has been shown to able to take the Hulk's blows, as well as dodge them, he's got the scientific resources to take the Hulk down. It won't be easy, but he's got 24 hours, and we already know he has numerous plans for dealing with the Hulk, and Panther's plans have pretty much shown to work nine times out of ten. He can win it, and he will.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Harlekin]

OPENING COMMENTS: Damien Hellstrom vs Banshee

I like Banshee. Nay, I love Banshee. Sadly, he doesn't stand a chance. Hellstrom is Lord of Hell. Neither of the two will know of the other, so both will be going in blind, an advantage for Hellstrom. He's ruthless, and will despose of his foe as fast as he can. Considering his powers, he can do that quite quickly. Anyone doubting his powers, check out this detailed profile of him.

If Banshee somehow manages to surprise him, he still won't be fast enough to take care of Hellstrom. Not only will he not go for a finishing blow immediately, as he's more inclined to talk things out if possible, Damien has quite the experience with... screams. He should have adequate defenses against Banshee's powers, and he'll take care of this quickly.

WINNER=DAMIEN HELLSTROM

 

[Ahura Mazda]

NOT QUITE A REMATCH:

Black Panther (HARLEKIN) bio

vs.

Savage Hulk (AHURA MAZDA) bio

(This match is delayed from last week. It will still take place in the Savage Land to make things fair. It will be as if they are fighting for the first time, so not really a rematch.)

The Savage Hulk, referring to the current marvel handbook, starts at class 100 not at 80 tons.

Second with regard his intelligence the current Hulk is as follows and this is a direct quote from Marvel:

IH: EOD: There are always discussions on different Hulk incarnations, which version are you using?

GP: Peter David left us with a great version of the Hulk --he’s intelligent but dangerous, able to make his own choices and deal rationally with the world, but savage enough to make us always wonder just when he’ll lose control in the face of provocation and temptation.

GP is Greg Pak, the current writer of the Hulk comics, including WWH.

Third before I start, I wanted to refer to certain feats of the Hulk:

Hulk Feats

Ok having gotten that out of the way, let me get to the battle:

This is a match between 2 that have faced each other before but whereas for one it was a battle for his survival, the other was distracted by other things.

The Hulk being intelligent now is going to know about the Black panther and his suit. So really he can go about his match two ways.

The Hulk will also be raving mad as he has just been shot off into space and his spaceship has just been sucked into a wormhole after breaking up (last panel before Planet Hulk).

His powers will be all hyped up as he will also soak up gamma radiation to the tilt during his prep time.

The Black panther is a peak Human with a vibranium suit.

The Hulk will seek out the Black panther and given he is faster (jumping and all) he will locate him. Now, one thing to note with this battle is that any physical battle will eventually leave the Black Panther defeated and down. The Hulk could rip him apart or throw him into space without breaking a sweat, based solely on strength. The other thing the Hulk could do is peel off the Blackpanther's costume which has shown signs of tear in the past. Even if he does not, the Hulk can build up enough strength to knock Black panther out, as he has been in the past.

Please note this current version of the Hulk is even more impervious plus his healing factor has been amped up. The Hulk has survived a nova blast by Johnny Storm with just a few hairs less.

The Black Panther is no challenge to the Hulk considering last time they met he was working hard just to survive the encounter when the Hulk did not have his full attention directed at him. And this was a child like not totally unhappy Hulk. Unlike the enraged intelligent Hulk the Black panther is fighting today.

Winner - Hulk

 

[Ahura Mazda]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Savage Hulk

For this one, I'll also borrow a page from Black Panther's matches, because it's much easier to repost these things. What is the one thing that defines the Panther? Prep-time. So, first off, let's handle his powers and pointing you to some great respect threads.

Strength, speed and endurance

Other skills

Standard equipment

For more of an idea of what the Panther can do, I invite you to look at this respect thread, detailing some of the awesome feats he's pulled off. Let's recap a few things here: Black Panther originally tested himself against the Fantastic Four, he's stared down Iron Man, has held his own against guys like Captain America, Iron Fist, Ka-Zar and Wolverine. Heck, he recently one-punched Karnak. Now anyone who still doubts the awesomeness of the Panther, can take a look at this particular thread, which gives a play-by-play of the Panther's feats, by year!

You might notice that the Panther and Hulk have faced off before. First off in Avengers Annual #2, where the Black Panther is capable to keep standing. He's not fighting the Hulk as much as he's stalling for time. I want to note that before that, the Panther also took down the Thing back in his first appearance, and was later even capable of single-handidly taking down the New Warriors (including Nova, Speedball and Namorita).

Now, he faces Hulk again with in an issue of Defenders. Another important battle is in Priest's run, where he is capable of hanging with the Savage Hulk once again. He'll be able to survive close combat thanks to his vibranium. You can see a page from that fight here. Interesting to see as well is him robbing the momentum from a Hulk-thrown car, here.

I think survive is the key word and this was not an intelligent Hulk but a stupid one. the current hulk wil remeber his previous battle and know to strike Panther directly and to take off his suit. One thing to note that in close contact Black Panther was not capable of hurting the Hulk.

Of course, these are not Panther's greatest assets. He's a technological and scientific genius. Exempting for one moment the possibility that Panther is able to (temporarily) cure Banner, he's got numerous devices to aid him. He's got sonic blasters, vibranium cages, you name it. He's got the resources of the Von Doom/Richards caliber. Let's also not forget that the Panther is in his natural element here - the jungle. This is David and Goliath while David is holding a really really big gun.

The thing is that the Illumunati could find no other solution but to shoot him out to space. Therefore you are suggesting Black panther all by himself in 24 hours is going to design, develop and create a weapon capable of curing or severely weakenning the Hulk. It seems quite improbable. No weapon exists today to do so.

And also let us note that the Hulk also feels perfectly natural in a jungle. And regarding David vs Goliath, Goliath was never as big, as strong, as impervious and as angry as the Hulk. No simple Gun is going to do him harm. Unless you are saying the black panther has a gun that packs more of a punch then the Human Torch going nova or a nuclear blast (in the Hulk feats link).

So, beyond the fact that the Panther has been shown to able to take the Hulk's blows, as well as dodge them, he's got the scientific resources to take the Hulk down. It won't be easy, but he's got 24 hours, and we already know he has numerous plans for dealing with the Hulk, and Panther's plans have pretty much shown to work nine times out of ten. He can win it, and he will.

So does Spiderman, but somehow the combinned minds of the illumunati had to jet him off into space because they, the most brilliant minds could not figure out a way to get rid of him. Of course, they did set the spaceship to explode which the Hulk survived (not part of this battle as this was part of the planet Hulk arc). It just shows that no one has ever been able to cure the Hulk except for the Silver Surfer at one stage eventhough this was never repeated.

WINNER=The Hulk

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Match 4:

Scarlet Witch (AHURA MAZDA) bio

vs.

Georgeous George (HARLEKIN) bio

(NO PICTURE AVAILABLE)

This is an interesting battle or could have been if the Scarlet Witch was not who she was.

First off let me get powers out of the way:

Initially, the Scarlet Witch had the ability to manipulate probability via her "hexes" (often manifesting physically as "hex spheres" or "hex bolts"). These hexes are relatively short range, and are limited to her line of sight. Casting a hex requires a gesture and concentration on her part, though the gestures are largely a focus for the concentration. Early in her career, her hexes were unconscious on her part, and would be automatically triggered whenever she made a particular gesture, regardless of her intent. These hexes would only manifest random "bad luck" effects: objects falling or breaking, people tripping, and so on. She later gained enough control over her powers that her powers only work when she wants them to, and they are not limited to negative effects. Despite this enhanced precision, her hexes are not necessarily guaranteed to work, particularly if she has been straining herself or using her powers excessively. If overextended, her hexes can backfire, causing probability to work against her wishes or to undo previous hexes.


Scarlet Witch in action, employing magic to augment her mutant hex, art by George Perez and Sam Grainger.Her hexes seem to have a wide, almost limitless variety of recorded and possible effects, though they often boil down to a kind of Deus Ex Machina superpower. They have been known to alter the molecular composition and physical state of physical objects, negate or distort physical laws, and to cause various forms of energy to spontaneously appear or disappear. She has an affinity with natural elements and phenomena, stemming largely from her magical training under Agatha Harkness, and has trained often at using her hexes to deflect projectiles or to cause enemies to stumble or otherwise suffer the effects of "bad luck". Writers often confuse her hex powers with psychokinesis, and have occasionally depicted them as able to generate energy blasts and to grant Wanda the power of flight[issue # needed]. Although her hexes can cause objects to suddenly move or change course, they do not have the ability to "hold on" to objects as a telekinetic might[citation needed]. Ultimately, the hexes are not under the Witch's direct control, although she can influence the nature of their effects with great concentration and effort. This makes her one of the few Avengers that Ultron fears; his adamantium shell cannot repel her magic. She has displayed the ability to cancel Longshot and Domino's powers of probability and has also once turned Longshot into a cat[issue # needed].

The first major reclassification of Wanda's fairly-indistinct hex powers came during Kurt Busiek's run on Avengers, where her power was claimed by Agatha Harkness to be an ability to manipulate chaos magic, given to her by the demon Chthon (imprisoned within Wundagore Mountain) when she was born. Her hexes were, by extension, simple, indirect manifestations of this magic, destabilising probabilities by inducing chaos. Across Busiek's run, Wanda's powers grew continuously, as she gained the ability to manipulate organic matter and summon Wonder Man back to life. While in the DC Universe (during the Jla/Avengers crossover, she displayed the ability to access that universe's chaos magic, but had great difficulty in doing so at first, since it was more powerful there and she had no previous experience in wielding it.

This is before Bendis and the reality warping, so it should all be valid.

Georgehas a physical structure is composed of tar-like ooze that he can stretch and expand at will, adhere to solid material, reduce to a formless puddle, and use to encase or constrict around solid objects.

Now Scarlet Witch could hex the hell out of George and he will have absolutely no defense against the chaos magic she wields.

But before I go there, prep time will be more advantageous for her as she will have complete knowledge on Avalon from the Avenger's database, and personal experience. Also, she may have knowledge of George given all her resources

The issue really is he has no defense to what she can do and as experienced as she is, he will find himself in severe difficulty. Plus she has the advantage of knowing Avalon very well and can use the resources there to entrap George.

Last but not least, let us not forget her chaos magic could just as well transform him into a statue made of tar.

There is no defense against the magic she wields and George is at best a 2nd to third tier mutant. The scarlet witch will take the not so gorgeous George down.

Winner - Scarlet Witch

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Hulk

Second with regard his intelligence the current Hulk is as follows and this is a direct quote from Marvel:

GP is Greg Pak, the current writer of the Hulk comics, including WWH.

That's all nice and dandy, and I know you have specified this in other matches as well, but this shouldn't apply. That is the Hulk. The character you have is the Savage Hulk. If it's the Hulk as he is currently (or just before the comp started anyway), he'd be labelled: Hulk. He's not. He's labelled Savage Hulk. That means we've got a dumb Hulk, otherwise it wouldn't have been needed to be labelled.

Now, I'll refrain on responding anything that is argumented on the notion the Hulk's intelligent, because by all rights he shouldn't be. That also means he's not übermad and having just survived an exploding spaceship.

The Hulk will seek out the Black panther and given he is faster (jumping and all) he will locate him. Now, one thing to note with this battle is that any physical battle will eventually leave the Black Panther defeated and down. The Hulk could rip him apart or throw him into space without breaking a sweat, based solely on strength. The other thing the Hulk could do is peel off the Blackpanther's costume which has shown signs of tear in the past. Even if he does not, the Hulk can build up enough strength to knock Black panther out, as he has been in the past.

- The Hulk's jumping ability is severely impaired in the jungle.
- The Black Panther can literally fight for days, so he won't be tired easily.
- Hulk's strength is negated by the vibranium.
- The Panther's suit would need tearing by say a special knife or something like that. It would logically not tear by Hulk's hands, as he would not be able to get a grip.
- The Panther is mostly going to play an evasion game, considering he wouldn't want to get hit by the Hulk, and he can avoid the Hulk. That's kinda his thing.

I think survive is the key word and this was not an intelligent Hulk but a stupid one. the current hulk wil remeber his previous battle and know to strike Panther directly and to take off his suit. One thing to note that in close contact Black Panther was not capable of hurting the Hulk.

Not hurting Hulk does not equal incapable of hurting him. He was not in the fight to hurt Hulk, but to simply minimalize damage and get him to revert to his human form. As I've already said, the Hulk wouldn't be intelligent.

The thing is that the Illumunati could find no other solution but to shoot him out to space. Therefore you are suggesting Black panther all by himself in 24 hours is going to design, develop and create a weapon capable of curing or severely weakenning the Hulk. It seems quite improbable. No weapon exists today to do so.

I'm not saying a permanent cure, but he should be able to cough up something to help him in this match. Using herbs, magic and science, he should be able to calm the Hulk down and revert him to human form. Even then, he's got access to the strongest metal around, vibranium. Wolverine almost killed the Hulk while he was under Apocalypse's thrall.

Since the Hulk is not intelligent, and has a child like manner of thinking, the Panther should be able to combine not only his own psychological tactics but also herbs, magics and science in order to take down the Hulk. The Panther's main strategy will be to talk the Hulk down and get him to become Banner. Once he becomes Banner, the match is pretty much over.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Harlekin]

FINAL COMMENTS: Gorgeous George vs Scarlet Witch

Scarlet Witch is a hottie.

WINNER=GORGEOUS GEORGE

 

[Ahura Mazda]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Hulk - here I go again thanks to my computer freezing up

That's all nice and dandy, and I know you have specified this in other matches as well, but this shouldn't apply. That is the Hulk. The character you have is the Savage Hulk. If it's the Hulk as he is currently (or just before the comp started anyway), he'd be labelled: Hulk. He's not. He's labelled Savage Hulk. That means we've got a dumb Hulk, otherwise it wouldn't have been needed to be labelled.

Now, I'll refrain on responding anything that is argumented on the notion the Hulk's intelligent, because by all rights he shouldn't be. That also means he's not übermad and having just survived an exploding spaceship.

This is a heavy point of contention. When I asked Phaed, it was confirmed that I had the latest version of the Hulk just before the Planet hulk story line. If this has changed again I would like to know about it and I could then respond, but until then all I can say is I think you are basing everything you say on a false assumption.

Therefore, my version of the SAVAGE HULK is intelligent and uber mad from being launched into space. That was the latsest verion of the savage Hulk and is the one battling today.

- The Hulk's jumping ability is severely impaired in the jungle.

Why you think trees can stop him or even bother him. You do know the Hulk has spent some time in jungles and he can break wood.

- The Black Panther can literally fight for days, so he won't be tired easily.

The Hulk's endurance is greater then the Black panther's not even mentioning that we are talking about someone with arguably the best healing powers in Marvel.

-- Hulk's strength is negated by the vibranium.

It would not negate him throwing BP into orbit if he wanted to nor punching him far enough away where he is out of the battle field. Plus even when he took blows that did not stop him from being thrown away and feeling the impact. This was a weaker version of the Hulk he is facing. Vibranium does not protect the lack panther against everything or he would never have been knocked out in a comic with his costume torn up.

-- - The Panther's suit would need tearing by say a special knife or something like that. It would logically not tear by Hulk's hands, as he would not be able to get a grip.

Now it could just be peeled off of his body by someone who has unimaginable strength.

- The Panther is mostly going to play an evasion game, considering he wouldn't want to get hit by the Hulk, and he can avoid the Hulk. That's kinda his thing.

And the Hulk will be playing a smashing game which will onsist on the Black Panther getting ever stronger blows reining down on his head.

- Not hurting Hulk does not equal incapable of hurting him. He was not in the fight to hurt Hulk, but to simply minimalize damage and get him to revert to his human form. As I've already said, the Hulk wouldn't be intelligent.

The BP’s claws were not able top penetrate his skin. His punches would have no effect. And the Hulk would be intelligent. Just because you say something does not make that true.

- I'm not saying a permanent cure, but he should be able to cough up something to help him in this match. Using herbs, magic and science, he should be able to calm the Hulk down and revert him to human form. Even then, he's got access to the strongest metal around, vibranium. Wolverine almost killed the Hulk while he was under Apocalypse's thrall.

That battle ended with the Hulk smashing him into the ground and then jumping away because he knew it was Wolverine and he was not himself. And if you want to talk about Wolverine who has adamantium claws and a healing factor, in their last face off in a Punisher comic the Hulk hit him so hard that he flew out of the battle field.

Harlekin I am going to refrain from being rude but your whole basis of the Hulk is stupid every 10 lines is wrong. The Hulk has gone through many incarnations and the current Savage Hulk is intelligent.

And surprisingly, when the Black panther tried to fight the Hulk before he had no special magics and oter items that would allow him to change the Hulk into Banner.

By the way, you do know that they pretty much control the transformations now, right and that Banner has shown a small measure of super strength during the Bruce Jones run just before the Hulk smashed and killed Abomination (killed in the Marvel sense).

The Black Panther is not in his league and you know this. Here is just one thing else the Hulk can do against the Black Panther:

The Hulk blows down a forest. IH #273

Blow the Black panther away.

And just to add to how Black Panther could not hurt the Hulk, Karnak who has 1 ton strength cannot harm the Hulk by hitting him exactly in his weakest area.

Black Panther does not even have 1 ton strength. The hulk is an unstoppable engine of destruction that the Avengers have trouble with and that Thor always had a hard time with. The Black panther is a great character but he is not in a league with the current enraged Hulk.

WINNER=The Hulk

 

[Ahura Mazda]

FINAL COMMENTS: Gorgeous George vs Scarlet Witch

Scarlet Witch is a hottie.

Nice drawing, you do it?

 

[Harlekin]

Nice drawing, you do it?

No, no. Pulled it off the 'net.

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Savage Hulk

I'm moving most of the discussion on the character's incarnation to the discussion thread.

Why you think trees can stop him or even bother him. You do know the Hulk has spent some time in jungles and he can break wood.

He'd continually have to smash through trees on his way up and down, really giving him little chance to properly see the area, and this would be quite a foolish method to locate the Panther with.

The Hulk's endurance is greater then the Black panther's not even mentioning that we are talking about someone with arguably the best healing powers in Marvel.

Of course his endurance and healing are better. The Hulk however can still be knocked out, and he can still be killed, and more importantly, he can be reverted back to Banner.

It would not negate him throwing BP into orbit if he wanted to nor punching him far enough away where he is out of the battle field. Plus even when he took blows that did not stop him from being thrown away and feeling the impact. This was a weaker version of the Hulk he is facing. Vibranium does not protect the lack panther against everything or he would never have been knocked out in a comic with his costume torn up.

True, although the Panther's agility and the locale will prevent from him being thrown very far. Besides, like I've said, the Panther isn't likely to engage Hulk in hand-to-hand combat for the entire match, while working psychology.

Now it could just be peeled off of his body by someone who has unimaginable strength.

It's unlikely the Hulk will go for this tactic, and it'll still be pretty hard.

The BP’s claws were not able top penetrate his skin. His punches would have no effect. And the Hulk would be intelligent. Just because you say something does not make that true.

He's gonna pack the meanest stuff he has. His standard issue claws wouldn't be able, but some vibranium, maybe even adamantium, it'll cut through his skin. And just because you say the Hulk will be intelligent doesn't make it true either. For Pete's sake, it's the savage Hulk! Savages aren't intelligent.

That battle ended with the Hulk smashing him into the ground and then jumping away because he knew it was Wolverine and he was not himself. And if you want to talk about Wolverine who has adamantium claws and a healing factor, in their last face off in a Punisher comic the Hulk hit him so hard that he flew out of the battle field.

- Only because Wolverine stopped his assault.
- Considering Ennis' "love" for superheroes, I wouldn't take anything from the Punisher comics as any type of gospel. Ennis has a tendency to make the other heroes into idiots.

Harlekin I am going to refrain from being rude but your whole basis of the Hulk is stupid every 10 lines is wrong. The Hulk has gone through many incarnations and the current Savage Hulk is intelligent.

- Like you constantly refer to the fact that he's intelligent?
- The whole point of the Savage Hulk is that he's not intelligent.

And surprisingly, when the Black panther tried to fight the Hulk before he had no special magics and oter items that would allow him to change the Hulk into Banner.

In his fights with Hulk, he was mostly surprised, or taken off his guard. He now has 24 hours of prep-time to take him on. Besides, Hulk into Banner would be a psych process, mostly.

By the way, you do know that they pretty much control the transformations now, right and that Banner has shown a small measure of super strength during the Bruce Jones run just before the Hulk smashed and killed Abomination (killed in the Marvel sense).

Yeah I know of that, but Bruce Banner isn't ever going to have a chance against the Panther.

The Black Panther is not in his league and you know this.

If I really thought he wasn't, I would not have given you this rematch.

And just to add to how Black Panther could not hurt the Hulk, Karnak who has 1 ton strength cannot harm the Hulk by hitting him exactly in his weakest area.

And yet Wolverine can. The Hulk is quite inconsistent.

Now, Black Panther can talk the Hulk down and that's really all that's needed. The Panther is one of the most intelligent (wo)men in the world, quite likely in the top five. He's got technology and skills that have helped him face foes that anyone would say he has no business fighting. The Panther will prevail.

Also, if you don't believe the Hulk can be talked down by anyone but Rick Jones or Betsy Ross: Matt Murdock has done it too.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Phaedrus45]

Tana Nile vs. Psylocke:

Sadly, I felt I had to choose Tana Nile over Kid Omega; because, with Psylocke's defeat of Professor Xavier, I felt like Kid Omega not stand a good chance. This match up is much better for my character's chances.

Here are the bios.

Tana Nile:


Fighting Skills: Good hand-to-hand combatant, trained in Rigellian martial arts
Special Skills/Abilities: Highly skilled in infiltration of alien races and in terraforming planets
Superhuman physical powers: Ability to increase her own density at will, increasing her strength and resistance to physical injury
Superhuman Mental Powers: Psionic ability to control the mind of another humanoid or to override another humanoid's control of his or her voluntary muscles (through "mind thrust")
Personal Weaponry: "Stasis gun" that can project concussive energy or intense heat


Psylocke:

AbilitiesTelekinesis (stronger since her resurrection).
Psychic katana.
Immunity to telepathy and all forms of mental, magical and physical alteration.

Now, neither character will know about the other; but, Psylocke should have some basic information on the location. The problem for Psylocke is this location works to Tana Nile's advantage. The telepathic abilities won't help Tana; but, she is resistant to the effects of space, and will come prepared. Her statis gun will prove effective in taking out Psylocke, if the chance presents itself. Both are very skilled fighters, and Tana will realize she can do one thing to win this match...blow Psylocke out into space. Even if Tana gets blown, too, it won't matter. One will live, and one will die. The one who dies is Psylocke, and Tana will emerge victorious.

Winner = Tana Nile

 

[Phaedrus45]

Frankie Raye vs. Cable:

First, Frankie's bio:

Frankie Raye:

Powers Nova could manipulate cosmic energy in the form of stellar fire, surrounding herself in a flaming aura. Her portion of the power cosmic allowed her to manipulate all forms of energy, fly at warp speed, and survive in outer space.


Also to note:

Strength Level: Nova can lift about 40 tons.


In addition:

*"Nova possesses the ability to manipulate cosmic energy in the form of stellar fire...These energies make her the humanoid equivalent of a miniature sun. Projecting from any point on her body by mental command, Nova's energies encompass the entire electromagnetic spectrum possessed by a star: heat, light, gravity, radio waves, and charged particles. The maximum amount of heat she can produce appears to be 900,000 degrees Fahrenheit....With a minor manifestation of her stellar powers, she can burn through any Earthly substance (with the exception of Adamantium.)....Nova can control the path of her cosmic fire to such an extent that she can project a sustained ring of flame at a fixed distance around any object."

*"As a consequence of her cosmic form and metabolism, Nova is far stronger and more durable than an ordinary human being. Although she still possesses a physical body, she is virtually impervious to most forms of physical harm. Her body automatically incinerates any projectile that comes within her fiery corona."


Location is the interesting factor in this match. Avalon is Cable's old home, and he'll use it to his advantage. The problem is obvious. Frankie Raye will not be confined within this space. She will take the battle outside and all she has to do is destroy the space station. Cable will have one option, and that is bodyslide out of the area. By bodysliding, he forfeits the contest. It's really his only option. He's not used to fighting Cosmic Beings, and there is nothing that indicates he'd know who Frankie Raye is.

Location screws Cable more than helps in the end.

Winner = Frankie Raye

 

[Ahura Mazda]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Savage Hulk

He'd continually have to smash through trees on his way up and down, really giving him little chance to properly see the area, and this would be quite a foolish method to locate the Panther with.

He can also jump and avoid trees. The Savage Land is not the Amazon which is why you have dinosaurs that can roam there.

PLus he will locate BP readily enough.

Of course his endurance and healing are better. The Hulk however can still be knocked out, and he can still be killed, and more importantly, he can be reverted back to Banner.

Regarding your first point, no one has found out a way to kill Hulk. He has regenerated from a skeleton in less then 11 minutes. He has been knocked out in the past and recent pre-Planet Hulk comics we have not seen him being knocked out at all. Yes in the older comics it happenned but it has not in a very long while.

True, although the Panther's agility and the locale will prevent from him being thrown very far. Besides, like I've said, the Panther isn't likely to engage Hulk in hand-to-hand combat for the entire match, while working psychology.

If he gets thrown straight into the air by a creature who is considerably stronger then a typical class 100, no agility will stop him from being tossed outside of the battle field.

And psychology will not work given that the Hulk mis aware of Banner and his relationship with him and has been throughout the Bruce Jones run. Banner and the Hulk were changing into each other as they pleased.

It's unlikely the Hulk will go for this tactic, and it'll still be pretty hard.

It is not unlikely at all given who the Hulk has evolved to before Pak inherited him. And it is not that hard when you have his strength.

He's gonna pack the meanest stuff he has. His standard issue claws wouldn't be able, but some vibranium, maybe even adamantium, it'll cut through his skin. And just because you say the Hulk will be intelligent doesn't make it true either. For Pete's sake, it's the savage Hulk! Savages aren't intelligent.

First off the claws, vibranium claws is what he was wearing when he attacked Hulk and they were unable to penetrate his skin. Adamantium claws are a possibility but unlikely as only creatures who have had it fused to their body have been able to ciut him with it. Plus claws would not go deep enough to do any damage, especially the Hulk who heals very quicly even from Wolverine's very big claws. Also, the Black Panther has a ready supply of vibranium not adamantium. Plus he would have to create claws from adamantium in his prep time by himself. That is a tall order.

Second, I am not just saying this but if you have read any Hulk comic before Planet Hulk you could see it. I do not have a scanner to show it but it was the case. When he fought Abomination the Hulk was deliberate and mindful of what he was doing.

- Only because Wolverine stopped his assault.
- Considering Ennis' "love" for superheroes, I wouldn't take anything from the Punisher comics as any type of gospel. Ennis has a tendency to make the other heroes into idiots.

Well in continuity, the Hulk smashed him into the ground after a brief hesitation of Death (Wolverine hyped up by Apocolypse) in a Wolverine comic book. He also punched him miles awayin continuity yet again.

- Like you constantly refer to the fact that he's intelligent?
- The whole point of the Savage Hulk is that he's not intelligent.

I am referring to the Hulk that preceded the Planet Hulk run and he was not stupid. Phaed is now stating he is very similar in intelligence to Planet Hulk. Not as intelligent as he was in the end of the series I give you. This Hulk no longer says Hulk smash and looks for Banner his hated foe. He knows that Banner is inside him and they are almoost integrated. As you very well know, during Bruce Jones run, the Hulk could use Banner's intelligence and Banner could use a measure of Hulk's strength.

In his fights with Hulk, he was mostly surprised, or taken off his guard. He now has 24 hours of prep-time to take him on. Besides, Hulk into Banner would be a psych process, mostly.

Given they revert back and forth freely now (and this was during Bruce Jones) how is he going to do that. Even if he did banner could revert immediately back to the Hulk. This is again not the same Hulk which you may have read during Sal Buscema and Bill Mantlo times. This Hulk is intelligent; not like Banner but a battlelike intelligence.

Yeah I know of that, but Bruce Banner isn't ever going to have a chance against the Panther.

This is pretty moot as it would never happen. And banner could survive the 2 seconds it would take him to revert back. As I stated above Bruce Jones run (which was boring as hell) allowed Banner to change into Hulk at will and to be able to use a measure of his power even when he was in his Banner form.

If I really thought he wasn't, I would not have given you this rematch.

I appreciate that you did give me the rematch but you have Hulk, who was a foe of Thor, the Avengers, the U-foes, the Abomination, etc., etc. against someone who was the Black version of captain america with very similar powers and a body suit to replace a shield. He is a great character but he is not in the league of the Hulk.

And yet Wolverine can. The Hulk is quite inconsistent.

Yes well Wolverine is often written like the Batman of the Marvel universe. However, Wolverine more often then not gets his ass handed to him by the Hulk and he has a healing factor and claws Black Panther does not.

Now, Black Panther can talk the Hulk down and that's really all that's needed. The Panther is one of the most intelligent (wo)men in the world, quite likely in the top five. He's got technology and skills that have helped him face foes that anyone would say he has no business fighting. The Panther will prevail.

Also, if you don't believe the Hulk can be talked down by anyone but Rick Jones or Betsy Ross:

If you look down that scan he is also on his knees with the Hulk ready to strike. Plus this was not a Hulk intent on Daredevil where this willl be a Hulk intent on the Black panther. In addition, this is an older versio of the hulk.

And the Hulk can take down the Black panther much more probably then the reverse. There is 1 chance out of a thousand using logic and possibly 1 out of a hundred using comic book logic the the Black Panther could prevail. Every other time the Hulk would win and this is a battle to decide who would be the likely victor.

WINNER=THE HULK

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I am just going to add a conclusion and leave this debate at that.

This fight is simply whether you believe that the Black panther is going to come up with some deus ex machina device that allows him to win, given none has existed before.

By himself (and I mean without the deus ex machina), he cannot harm the Hulk no matter what incarnation it is and the Hulk can harm him.

Now regarding the intelligence level of the Hulk and the ability to transform, I would refer you to the discussion thread where there is a whole discussion on it as it required/requires a ruling which is being sorted out.

 

[Harlekin]

FINAL COMMENTS: Black Panther vs Hulk

I'm going for last comments too because I've really become sick of this debate and wished I'd saved myself the trouble. Although my opponent would like you to believe otherwise, the Panther has more than an ample chance at beating the Hulk, which I've hopefully been able to make clear.

He's faced strong opponents before (including the Hulk), and the Panther has only become more adept as time has gone one. He's defeated the likes of the Thing and Mephisto, and has shown to be able to plan (and have plans) for almost anything and anyone.

His natural resources have allowed him, a mere mortal, to stand up to the Hulk on two occasions before without any preparation. With 24 hours of prep-time, this top 5 genius should be capable of defeating the Hulk. He's proficient in science and a little bit in magic as well.

Wolverine of all people is a rather regular challenge of the Hulk, and it was only because he resisted Poccy's programming that he didn't kill the Hulk. The Black Panther is, based on physique and intelligence quite a few leagues above Wolverine, and has more resources at his disposal as well.

Here's a man that, with the exception of a few people, has more info on the Hulk than anyone else (own files, Avengers files etc.). He's the king of the most technologically advanced nation of the world, and has shown the ability to adapt to almost any situation. He's a brilliant tactician and a great fighter. His stealth abilities are unparallelled.

Panther can beat the Hulk, and even if you only think it's 6/10 chance, vote for him. He can do it.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Phaedrus45]

Ok, from the research I've done, I would feel comfortable to say this is the Hulk after Peter David's last run, ending with Tempus Fugit. It seems to have the type of Hulk that JH and I were thinking of. Not intelligent, but not the complete moron who'd only say "Hulk Smash." So, you can go up to issue 82. So, once all the House of M stuff starts, consider it unable to use.

I believe this is the most fair. After all, we can't use House of M, since it's an alternate world kind of thing. And, in between House of M and Planet Hulk, you only have about 4 comics, including him being shot into space.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Ok, from the research I've done, I would feel comfortable to say this is the Hulk after Peter David's last run, ending with Tempus Fugit. It seems to have the type of Hulk that JH and I were thinking of. Not intelligent, but not the complete moron who'd only say "Hulk Smash." So, you can go up to issue 82. So, once all the House of M stuff starts, consider it unable to use.

I believe this is the most fair. After all, we can't use House of M, since it's an alternate world kind of thing. And, in between House of M and Planet Hulk, you only have about 4 comics, including him being shot into space.

Ok so that includes Bruce Jones run, him able to control the transformations and adapt to an environment (like he did to breathe underwater).

It will however not include the part where I said he is angry because he was shot into space. I am not going to rewrite it but you can assume that he will still be very angry and the madder the Hulk gets the stronger he gets.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!!!

 

[Phaedrus45]

Hey guys. I waited and waited for Hippy to debate the Cable match. At this point in the competition, I really want the best character to win. If you sincerly believe Cable can beat Frankie Raye, I would rather have you vote that way than win by default. I stand behind my argument; I just don't want anyone voting for me simply because Hippy didn't have a chance to debate.

 

[Phaedrus45]

*Tana Nile

*Damien Hellstrom

*Frankie Raye

*Scarlet Witch

*Black Panther - (Simply a great match. Hulk would win this, if not for prep-time. Sadly, prep-time does little for Hulk and benefits Black Panther way too much.)

 

[kytrigger]

Scarlet Witch

Frankie Raye

Hellstrom

Tana Nile

Black Panther- The prep does give him a huge advantage, and while I doubt he could kill the Hulk or anything, I do think he would be able to capture/subdue him for a long enough time to get the win.

 

[wiegeabo]

Psylocke (immunity to telepathy helps her greatly giving her time to use her psychic knife. And her immunity to her body being changed may protect her from the stasis gun)
Damien Hellstrom (too much power)
Frankie Raye (Although I don't think she'd hurt Cable, Phead convinced me she could force him to flee the station. I just wish Hippy could have countered that argument)
Scarlet Witch (just a great character to have in the tourney)
Black Panther (being able to use all his prior fights and Wakandian tech, Panther can take this. Just barely)

 

[Harlekin]

Tana Nile
Damien Hellstrom
Frankie Raye - Although I've got to note that Frankie is not ruthless and wouldn't destroy Avalon just like that with a still living person on it.
Gorgeous George
Black Panther