Contest of Marvels II Thread 1

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

Not brilliant? Even though pretty much every source refers to him as being one? Yes, Moonstone had to help him define some of the finer aspects of his powers, but that was because Graviton was looking at the big picture too much. Lack of imagination and all that.

And really, most brilliant scientists get their powers from failed experiments (Sasquatch for one). Heck, he was still able to built a beacon that transcended dimensions (which is what brought him back into the Earth dimension).

I discovered some interesting information in my research. It would appear that Graviton has "evidently sustained a head injury," as stated in the most new Official Handbook, and this head injury is concurrent with his appearance in New Avengers. Plus, I just finished reading through New Avengers, and the only mention of drugs is in regards to Purple Man. None of the escape prisoners seemed to be effected by any drugs at all, and even Purple Man seemed uneffected by any drugs. The idea that Graviton is drugged is purely speculation; and, from what I read, false speculation.

What defeated Graviton wasn't "a lucky shot," but Tony Stark's Extremis enhanced Iron Man. Tony Stark had a means of defeating Graviton, and especially with his prep-time, he'll be further prepared. Also, this head injury makes Graviton "more megalomaniacal than ever during this ... escape, declaring himself capable of forgiving and punishing sins." Obviously, Graviton isn't in his right mind, and this greatly hinders his scientific and deductive abilities. Dude's loco, even more than before.

Of course Tony knows of a few of Graviton's weakness. Overexertion and his fragile psyche. Also, as I point out, the Graviton depicted during his battle with the NA was nothing like his previous appearances and in a rare moment for him, was taken by surprise.

As pointed out, it even goes beyond Graviton's normal weaknesses. Tony knew how to defeat Graviton by using his Extremis armor. He'll know how to defeat him again. Plus, he knows of Graviton's emotional weaknesses and will know how to use them to his advantage if needed. (Heck, he might even have some special hologram or something of the woman who tends to drive him crazy.)

The thing is I'm going to end up going in circles with this debate now. I think this final quote says it all.

I repeat: Power, knowledge, location.

Tony has more power at his disposal, a hell of a lot more knowledge (especially considering Mr. Brain Damage isn't working with a full deck), and he will know the location a whole lot better than Gravy.

Winner = Iron Man

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

I discovered some interesting information in my research. It would appear that Graviton has "evidently sustained a head injury," as stated in the most new Official Handbook, and this head injury is concurrent with his appearance in New Avengers. Plus, I just finished reading through New Avengers, and the only mention of drugs is in regards to Purple Man. None of the escape prisoners seemed to be effected by any drugs at all, and even Purple Man seemed uneffected by any drugs. The idea that Graviton is drugged is purely speculation; and, from what I read, false speculation.

Purple Man was unaffected by drugs? Did you even read New Avengers? It's how Luke Cage was able to beat his unholy ass. And most of the escaped prisoners were street level, and with the exception of Count Nefaria, none used their powers. It's perfectly reasonable that they drugged him to keep docile, because there was no other mention of power inhibiting.

What defeated Graviton wasn't "a lucky shot," but Tony Stark's Extremis enhanced Iron Man. Tony Stark had a means of defeating Graviton, and especially with his prep-time, he'll be further prepared. Also, this head injury makes Graviton "more megalomaniacal than ever during this ... escape, declaring himself capable of forgiving and punishing sins." Obviously, Graviton isn't in his right mind, and this greatly hinders his scientific and deductive abilities. Dude's loco, even more than before.

It was a lucky shot in the sense that Iron Man took him by surprise, something that had never happened to Graviton before, at least, not without him being prepared to deal with it. Logically, I also object against the use of this crazier Graviton, since his past history shows an A) saner version, B) steadily more powerful version and C) none of this forgiving and punishing bull****.

As pointed out, it even goes beyond Graviton's normal weaknesses. Tony knew how to defeat Graviton by using his Extremis armor. He'll know how to defeat him again. Plus, he knows of Graviton's emotional weaknesses and will know how to use them to his advantage if needed. (Heck, he might even have some special hologram or something of the woman who tends to drive him crazy.)

Considering Graviton is completely in tune with the gravitational forces, and has unlimited control over them, I doubt he'll be fooled by a hologram. He's also, of course, not an idiot. There's really no opportunity for Iron Man to prey on Graviton's psyche.

Tony has more power at his disposal, a hell of a lot more knowledge (especially considering Mr. Brain Damage isn't working with a full deck), and he will know the location a whole lot better than Gravy.

More power? Come back to me when Iron Man's lifted 20 cities up in the air and fought the Thunderbolts while doing so. Sorry, but in a test of pure power, Iron Man can't win. Lastly, Graviton keeps the location advantage (especially if he's crazy as you suggest), since he'll be murdering people left and right. Heck, odds are, knowing his defeat against Iron Man, he'll just go bat ****in' insane and throw the entirety of Hell's Kitchen into space or have it collapse on itself.

Now, I actually found some scans of the fight itself that you mention:
Page 1, page 2, page 3, page 4. As you can see, not only does Graviton resist Iron Man's initial attack, "near-death" isn't accurate either, as he doesn't even seem to be knocked out on the final page. Heck, even resists Iron Man's repulsor blasts in his face. With a Graviton that knows of this defeat, there's no way Iron Man gets to pull that off again.

Iron Man is going down.

WINNER=GRAVITON

 

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

Purple Man was unaffected by drugs? Did you even read New Avengers? It's how Luke Cage was able to beat his unholy ass. And most of the escaped prisoners were street level, and with the exception of Count Nefaria, none used their powers. It's perfectly reasonable that they drugged him to keep docile, because there was no other mention of power inhibiting.

Actually, I did read the book, especially focusing on the escape attempt. Remember, Purple Man did take over Luke Cage in that book for a while, and he was the only character who was refered to as being drugged. I looked through those issues, and the villians did not act drugged at all.

It was a lucky shot in the sense that Iron Man took him by surprise, something that had never happened to Graviton before, at least, not without him being prepared to deal with it. Logically, I also object against the use of this crazier Graviton, since his past history shows an A) saner version, B) steadily more powerful version and C) none of this forgiving and punishing bull****.

How is it that Graviton has faced more and better Avengers in the past, yet in this instance is taken down quite easily by Tony? Simple, and it's not drugs. It's the Extremis armor. Tony has a way of battling Graviton, and that makes sense. As you point out, they've fought numerous times, and a man of Tony's genius would have come up with a way to defeat him by now. He has, he did, and so did the Thunderbolts.

Considering Graviton is completely in tune with the gravitational forces, and has unlimited control over them, I doubt he'll be fooled by a hologram. He's also, of course, not an idiot. There's really no opportunity for Iron Man to prey on Graviton's psyche.

The truth is Tony won't even need to do this. He knows how to defeat Graviton. But, I point out that it's been shown, especially with his recent brain damage, that to try and hypothosis how Graviton would act in this situation isn't in the way a rational hero or villian would. Dude's got a screw loose.

More power? Come back to me when Iron Man's lifted 20 cities up in the air and fought the Thunderbolts while doing so. Sorry, but in a test of pure power, Iron Man can't win. Lastly, Graviton keeps the location advantage (especially if he's crazy as you suggest), since he'll be murdering people left and right. Heck, odds are, knowing his defeat against Iron Man, he'll just go bat ****in' insane and throw the entirety of Hell's Kitchen into space or have it collapse on itself.

Going up against Graviton has never been about a test of power, and this isn't the case with this match. This is genius vs. megalomaniacal scientist with a screw loose. If this was just a happenstance fight without prep-time, I'd almost admit that Graviton would have the upper hand. But, recent history has shown that Tony has the means and the know-how to come prepared.

Now, I actually found some scans of the fight itself that you mention:
Page 1, page 2, page 3, page 4. As you can see, not only does Graviton resist Iron Man's initial attack, "near-death" isn't accurate either, as he doesn't even seem to be knocked out on the final page. Heck, even resists Iron Man's repulsor blasts in his face. With a Graviton that knows of this defeat, there's no way Iron Man gets to pull that off again.

What I see is an Iron Man with the right type of armor without even prep-time taking down Graviton. These were heroes not fully prepared for who they are fighting. Now, image what happens with 24 hours to prepare. The Gravi-train in getting knocked off its tracks!

Winner = Iron Man

(At this point, I'm positive I'll still be stating the same things over and over. Unless a new point gets brought up, I'm good at letting this debate end so I can focus on the other six.)

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

I'm willing to close the debate as well, although I might put up a summary later, to finalize it. I'm responding to a selection of your debate, since I'd just be repeating myself otherwise.

Actually, I did read the book, especially focusing on the escape attempt. Remember, Purple Man did take over Luke Cage in that book for a while, and he was the only character who was refered to as being drugged. I looked through those issues, and the villians did not act drugged at all.

Then I suggest you read it again. Luke Cage faked being taken over and then pretty much immediately went all out on Purple Man's ass. Purple didn't even have Cage for a second.

How is it that Graviton has faced more and better Avengers in the past, yet in this instance is taken down quite easily by Tony? Simple, and it's not drugs. It's the Extremis armor. Tony has a way of battling Graviton, and that makes sense. As you point out, they've fought numerous times, and a man of Tony's genius would have come up with a way to defeat him by now. He has, he did, and so did the Thunderbolts.

I'd hardly chalk up to Extremis. Seeing as Tony's been able to Mach-3, since what, his first appearance? That's really what took Graviton out. The surprise hit on his head. Tony got off a lucky shot, that's really all there is to it. Graviton beats on the Avengers, Tony gets a distress call and then barges in, knocking Graviton on his ass with a lucky pound.

Tony's win record also speaks against him here, since he's always lost to Graviton before the recent Iron Man #8. The Thunderbolts were also only able to beat Graviton with tech once, and had to rely on Moonstone (with whom Graviton had fallen in love with) to win that battle.

WINNER=GRAVITON

 

[Phaedrus45]

Scarlet Witch vs. Frankie Raye:

Interesting match-up, mainly for the fact that Scarlet Witch is one confusing character. I've tried to think of examples where she's been on one-on-one confrontations, and she's always with someone or some team. I know there was one miniseries; and if I have a chance to dig it out, I might get a look at it. But, the cool thing is that her actual powers are well described in the Official Handbook for Avengers 2004, before Bendis came along and screwed everything up. I'll reprint that information below:

Superhuman Powers: The Scarlet Witch is able to create "hex-spheres," finite pockets of reality-disrupting, quasi-psionic force that can cause molecular disturbances in a target's probability field, resulting in the occurence of unlikely events; examples include spontaneous combustion, rapid decay, deflection of objects in flight, and the disruption of energy transmissions. Her power has a special affinity for natural elements.

The Scarlet Witch is able to enhance her mutant power via the use of sorcery to manipulate chaos magic, but the full extent of her sorcerous skill is as yet unclear inasmuch as she has demonstrated widely varying power levels; it may be that her probability-altering power affects her sorcery and vice versa, occasionally making her far more powerful than she ordinarily would be.

Special Skills: Captain America has trained the Scarlet Witch in basic hand-to-hand combat.

Special Limitations: The Scarlet Witch's hex-casting ability has a 20% unreliability factor and is limited by her range of sight, although she has been able to overcome the latter limitationon occasion via extreme concentration and sorcerous enhancement. Her power's reliablity depends in part upon her physical condition.

Additionally, the reader notices she's not particularily fast, strong, or durable.

The main thing I want to stress is for the voter to remember Scarlet Witch appearances from the past. That 20& unreliability factor is actually a pretty big percentage, and I can remember numerous times where she doesn't get off what she needs to, especially under stressful circumstances.

Oh, I guess I should point out my character's abilities, too:

Powers Nova could manipulate cosmic energy in the form of stellar fire, surrounding herself in a flaming aura. Her portion of the power cosmic allowed her to manipulate all forms of energy, fly at warp speed, and survive in outer space.


Also to note:

Strength Level: Nova can lift about 40 tons.


In addition:

*"Nova possesses the ability to manipulate cosmic energy in the form of stellar fire...These energies make her the humanoid equivalent of a miniature sun. Projecting from any point on her body by mental command, Nova's energies encompass the entire electromagnetic spectrum possessed by a star: heat, light, gravity, radio waves, and charged particles. The maximum amount of heat she can produce appears to be 900,000 degrees Fahrenheit....With a minor manifestation of her stellar powers, she can burn through any Earthly substance (with the exception of Adamantium.)....Nova can control the path of her cosmic fire to such an extent that she can project a sustained ring of flame at a fixed distance around any object."

*"As a consequence of her cosmic form and metabolism, Nova is far stronger and more durable than an ordinary human being. Although she still possesses a physical body, she is virtually impervious to most forms of physical harm. Her body automatically incinerates any projectile that comes within her fiery corona."

Scarlet Witch is a cool character, but she's not one who is useful against a cosmic character, like Frankie Raye. Since Frankie is from Earth, she'll have known about Scarlet Witch. The same can't be said for Wanda, though. This is someone the Fantastic Four dealt with, not the Avengers. (Of course, Frankie Raye will only have personal memory of past events to work with; so, that isn't a whole lot, either.)

What makes this match beneficial for Frankie is her speed. Scarlet Witch needs to be able to see what she's using her powers on, as explained above. Frankie can go so fast as to easily knock Scarlet Witch unconscious. Plus, looking at Frankie's power levels, Scarlet Witch might be able to disrupt it a bit; but, Frankie will quickly learn a fast approach on someone who needs a bit of concentration will be what she needs.

Winner = Frankie Raye

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Scarlet Witch vs. Frankie Raye: - Rebuttal

Interesting match-up, mainly for the fact that Scarlet Witch is one confusing character. I've tried to think of examples where she's been on one-on-one confrontations, and she's always with someone or some team. I know there was one miniseries; and if I have a chance to dig it out, I might get a look at it. But, the cool thing is that her actual powers are well described in the Official Handbook for Avengers 2004, before Bendis came along and screwed everything up. I'll reprint that information below:



Additionally, the reader notices she's not particularily fast, strong, or durable.

The main thing I want to stress is for the voter to remember Scarlet Witch appearances from the past. That 20& unreliability factor is actually a pretty big percentage, and I can remember numerous times where she doesn't get off what she needs to, especially under stressful circumstances.

I would like to point out that this versuion of the characater includes everything up to Bendis' upgrades which included the ability to manipulate organic matter, and she was doing chaos magic.

Scarlet Witch is a cool character, but she's not one who is useful against a cosmic character, like Frankie Raye. Since Frankie is from Earth, she'll have known about Scarlet Witch. The same can't be said for Wanda, though. This is someone the Fantastic Four dealt with, not the Avengers. (Of course, Frankie Raye will only have personal memory of past events to work with; so, that isn't a whole lot, either.)

Why would frankie know about the Scarlet Witch. As you say, she dealt with the FF4 plus at the time of her transformation the Scarlet Witch was not even part of the Avengers. However, you seem to omit that the Scarlet Witch has access to the Avengers' database which is very complete and has information on all the villains and all the heroes.

What makes this match beneficial for Frankie is her speed. Scarlet Witch needs to be able to see what she's using her powers on, as explained above. Frankie can go so fast as to easily knock Scarlet Witch unconscious. Plus, looking at Frankie's power levels, Scarlet Witch might be able to disrupt it a bit; but, Frankie will quickly learn a fast approach on someone who needs a bit of concentration will be what she needs.

One thing neither of us has mentionned is that this is a populated area. Nova is a hero type just as the Scarlet Witch is so either will try and avoid collateral damage. However, who is likely to cause more with the use of her powers. Nova is someone who shoots blasts and that is her main weapon. How will she do that in a populated area. The Scarlet Witch's powers however willl be very specific and will only affect Nova so can be used to a fuller extent.

Also the Scarlet Witch has faced people with even greater speed like count Nefaria or Ultron with no worse the wear. Nova has absolutely no defense against anything the Scarlet Witch can do to her. Absolutely none. Magic has always been a weakness for all the ex-heralds and here is a prime example against one of the weaker ones. PLus the fact it is a populated area is an enormous advantage for someone whose powers do not cause collateral damage against someone whose own abilities affect genrally big areas.


Winner = SCARLET WITCH

 

[Phaedrus45]

Scarlet Witch vs. Frankie Raye: - Rebuttal



I would like to point out that this versuion of the characater includes everything up to Bendis' upgrades which included the ability to manipulate organic matter, and she was doing chaos magic.

I would like to point out that the information I provided is right before Bendis' upgrades, is directly from the Official Handbook, and as such probably gives the best source of information on this very confusing character, whose been transformed numerous times throughout her history.

Why would frankie know about the Scarlet Witch. As you say, she dealt with the FF4 plus at the time of her transformation the Scarlet Witch was not even part of the Avengers. However, you seem to omit that the Scarlet Witch has access to the Avengers' database which is very complete and has information on all the villains and all the heroes.

Scarlet Witch's association with the Avengers was very public and very well known. The fact remains that she was a prolific member due to her gossip-page style stories: She's a mutant joining the Avengers; she's a past villian, along with her brother, joining the Avengers; and, she's a human mating with an Android, The Vision. I would dare say that almost anyone in the U.S. knows about Scarlet Witch, just as we all know about Paris Hilton. Plus, I noted that Frankie Raye still wouldn't know a great deal; but, she would know about her.

As for Avenger's files, the Avengers never dealt with Frankie Raye, only the Fantastic Four (on Earth). Frankie Raye was just a girlfriend to Johnny Storm, if memory suits me correctly, and as such the Avengers never interacted on a cosmic scale with her time as a herald to Galactus.

One thing neither of us has mentionned is that this is a populated area. Nova is a hero type just as the Scarlet Witch is so either will try and avoid collateral damage. However, who is likely to cause more with the use of her powers. Nova is someone who shoots blasts and that is her main weapon. How will she do that in a populated area. The Scarlet Witch's powers however willl be very specific and will only affect Nova so can be used to a fuller extent.

First, Nova has been transformed into a Herald of Galactus, and usually that transformation is more than just physical. Second, Scarlet Witch should (in my opinion) be more worried. As noted, many times her hex-powers don't work as expected, and if she causes a stray shot to miss-fire, it's her powers that endangers other's lives. It's definite that Scarlet Witch would be more effected by the population than a transformed Herald of Galactus.

Also the Scarlet Witch has faced people with even greater speed like count Nefaria or Ultron with no worse the wear. Nova has absolutely no defense against anything the Scarlet Witch can do to her. Absolutely none. Magic has always been a weakness for all the ex-heralds and here is a prime example against one of the weaker ones. PLus the fact it is a populated area is an enormous advantage for someone whose powers do not cause collateral damage against someone whose own abilities affect genrally big areas.

Actually, Scarlet Witch has faced people of great speed (and, I wouldn't say greater) with the help of the Avengers at her side. Also, Scarlet Witch is not a magician in the normal Marvel sense. She's no Clea or Dr. Strange, I'd like to point out. Her powers are about probability. She's out of her league, she doesn't have a team to distract her opponent while she can do her "chaos magic," and her ability to concentrate will be greatly hampered.

Winner = Frankie Raye

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I would like to point out that the information I provided is right before Bendis' upgrades, is directly from the Official Handbook, and as such probably gives the best source of information on this very confusing character, whose been transformed numerous times throughout her history.

This still includes her affecting organic matter which she did by bringing Wonder Man back to life during Busiek's run. The comics in continuity override what you have in the handbook.

Scarlet Witch's association with the Avengers was very public and very well known. The fact remains that she was a prolific member due to her gossip-page style stories: She's a mutant joining the Avengers; she's a past villian, along with her brother, joining the Avengers; and, she's a human mating with an Android, The Vision. I would dare say that almost anyone in the U.S. knows about Scarlet Witch, just as we all know about Paris Hilton. Plus, I noted that Frankie Raye still wouldn't know a great deal; but, she would know about her.

I do not agree as the dealings of the Avengers was never very public. The Scarlet Witch did not have a press agent or a reality show so that the public would know her. Even her dealings as a villain, which was known in the mutant community were not something known by the public at large. You are assuming much and the other thing the public has no knowledge of is her powers which at best would know it is magic related.

As for Avenger's files, the Avengers never dealt with Frankie Raye, only the Fantastic Four (on Earth). Frankie Raye was just a girlfriend to Johnny Storm, if memory suits me correctly, and as such the Avengers never interacted on a cosmic scale with her time as a herald to Galactus.

The Avengers' have a very complete database and have extended files on all the heralds. They are the prime team of the US and as such have access to everything. Just because they did not personally deal with her does not mean they did not have files on her.

First, Nova has been transformed into a Herald of Galactus, and usually that transformation is more than just physical. Second, Scarlet Witch should (in my opinion) be more worried. As noted, many times her hex-powers don't work as expected, and if she causes a stray shot to miss-fire, it's her powers that endangers other's lives. It's definite that Scarlet Witch would be more effected by the population than a transformed Herald of Galactus.

First of all, in your handbook it states there is a 20% chance they do not work meaning that 4 out of 5 times they do. Therefore stating that it is many times they do not work is very misleading because they almost always work and once in a while they do not. It would be like never betting on a pair of aces because once in a while you could lose whereas almost always you win. The Scarlet Witch knows how good her powers are and as such will not be worried on the off chance they could backfire. One out of five is a very low probability.

And lets not forget that this is Nova, the ex-Herald who recoverred her humanity when the Silver Surfer taught her a lesson. In other words, she is not as powerful as when she was a herald and she now feels the difference between right and wrong.

Actually, Scarlet Witch has faced people of great speed (and, I wouldn't say greater) with the help of the Avengers at her side. Also, Scarlet Witch is not a magician in the normal Marvel sense. She's no Clea or Dr. Strange, I'd like to point out. Her powers are about probability. She's out of her league, she doesn't have a team to distract her opponent while she can do her "chaos magic," and her ability to concentrate will be greatly hampered.

The thing is her magic is something that has no defense and given she has preparation she can affect a spell which can waylay Nova.

The thing to note is that there is (based on a handbook that is not always accurate - I base this on the section on the Hulk which has quite a few errors) a 1 out of 5 chance this could not work. this contest is supposed to be based on what would happen the majority of times and not once out of several times. The reality or the magic of it is that FOUR OUT OF FIVE times Nova will be taken down.


Winner = THE SCARLET WITCH

 

[Phaedrus45]

Rebuttal of sorts in regards to Graviton vs. Iron Man:

I do stand corrected. I had looked at the end of New Avengers #2, where it shows Purple Man taking control of Luke Cage. Of course, in issue #3, they show this was a trick, and Purple Man couldn't use his powers at all.

BUT, this does prove a point I was making. As pointed out, the only character refered to as being drugged is Purple Man in New Avengers #1. It was my statement that none of the other characters were drugged. In Iron Man #8, we see the battle, and Harlekin even gives us a few of the pictures (but, not the best ones, where Graviton is handing the entire New Avengers their butts and using his powers to their fullest extent). I point this out because if Graviton was being drugged, he should have the same problem as Purple Man, which is no ability to use his powers. This isn't the case; thus, it must be assumed that he isn't drugged and weakened upon escape.

Winner = Iron Man

(That should end my debate. I just had to pull up New Avengers #2 again, then issue #3.)

 

[Phaedrus45]

This still includes her affecting organic matter which she did by bringing Wonder Man back to life during Busiek's run. The comics in continuity override what you have in the handbook.

This handbook includes what you mention. As it says, "the Scarlet Witch, in attempting to summon other Avengers, inadvertently caused Wonder Man to partially cross over from the world of the dead; she was able to fully restore him to life not long afterward." Remember, much of Scarlet Witch's powers are random happenstance. As the bio points out, the was "inadvertent" in the first place. Plus, Wonder Man is a being of ionic energy, too. What powers she has over organic matter is already described in the bio I provided, which really is pretty accurate for the Scarlet Witch all of us would be facing.

I do not agree as the dealings of the Avengers was never very public. The Scarlet Witch did not have a press agent or a reality show so that the public would know her. Even her dealings as a villain, which was known in the mutant community were not something known by the public at large. You are assuming much and the other thing the public has no knowledge of is her powers which at best would know it is magic related.

When Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver joined, it created an uproar among civilians and U.S. government alike. Again, it's a strange thing to be arguing that Frankie Raye would be somewhat familiar with her, especially since I've pointed out twice that it would be just what she remembered from news and such.

The Avengers' have a very complete database and have extended files on all the heralds. They are the prime team of the US and as such have access to everything. Just because they did not personally deal with her does not mean they did not have files on her.

I would ask when any member of the Avengers ever came into contact with Frankie Raye. She was a Herald for a short time, after all. Silver Surfer and some other Heralds I would agree with. Nova was almost a blip on the Marvel 616 radar screen.

First of all, in your handbook it states there is a 20% chance they do not work meaning that 4 out of 5 times they do. Therefore stating that it is many times they do not work is very misleading because they almost always work and once in a while they do not. It would be like never betting on a pair of aces because once in a while you could lose whereas almost always you win. The Scarlet Witch knows how good her powers are and as such will not be worried on the off chance they could backfire. One out of five is a very low probability.

20% is terrible odds, in my opinion. In fact, it seems like Scarlet Witch will be trying to evade more than attack Nova's assault. That means, if Nova shoots cosmic bolts at her 5 times, one could very well hit her and knock her unconscious. Sounds like pretty good odds to me.

And lets not forget that this is Nova, the ex-Herald who recoverred her humanity when the Silver Surfer taught her a lesson. In other words, she is not as powerful as when she was a herald and she now feels the difference between right and wrong.

But, not as much as Scarlet Witch. If this is a question of who will be more effected by those nearby, I give the very human Scarlet Witch that problem.

The thing is her magic is something that has no defense and given she has preparation she can affect a spell which can waylay Nova.

To point out, this is "Chaos Magic." It's very different than the other magic users. Scarlet Witch needs preparation and the ability to do "chaos magic." She's not going to rattle off spells, like Dr. Strange. All the voters have to do is really remember the type of character Scarlet Witch was in Avengers. (My memory remembers her being captured a lot.)

The thing to note is that there is (based on a handbook that is not always accurate - I base this on the section on the Hulk which has quite a few errors) a 1 out of 5 chance this could not work. this contest is supposed to be based on what would happen the majority of times and not once out of several times. The reality or the magic of it is that FOUR OUT OF FIVE times Nova will be taken down.

This is not 1 out of 5 times that Scarlet Witch will fail in a contest between these two. This means there is a 20% chance in this battle that one of Scarlet Witch's chaos magic spells won't work as she desires. This is not going to be a "one hit and Scarlet Witch wins" type of match. Let's not confuse the voters by taking the probability out of context.

Winner = Frankie Raye

 

[kytrigger]

Sunfire - Exiles (KYTRIGGER) bio



vs.

Black Panther (HARLEKIN) bio

Okay, so this looks like sort of a mismatch, but Sunfire can definately win this battle.

Powers:
Everyone knows Black panther

This Sunfire has the same powers as the 616 Sunfire basically. She can fly, shoot heat rays and heat up to somewhere near 1,000,000 degrees or something ridiculous like that.

Prep Time will go to Panther, but it is difficult to say how much he can really use. I'm not sure he knows this Sunfire, but he does know the other one. This will allow him to prepare, but he might be expecting some differences since this is really a different person which makes it hard to judge what he will really prepare.


as for the fight, Sunfire's main weapon is her heat. Now, most are saying that Black Panther has a suit with a vibranium weave and everything. yes. He does, and that suit would definately help him from the concusson of hte blasts, but not necessarily the heat of the blast.

Her is a pic of Cap's shield blocking the heat of a reactor, but Cap stating that the heat is still going to kill him:

What this shows is that the vibranium can definately block some of the heat, but not all of it, and I bet Sunfire can get a hell of a lot hotter than a freaking reactor.

Panther's vibranium suit is good, but it isn't perfect. if it can still be cut with a knife (which it can) then other things can get through it as well, including heat.

Sunfire would just have to rais ethe temp up high enough until he eventually passes out. Panther could stand it a while because of his endurance and overall ca-do attitude, but eventually he would drop. All the while Sunfire just flies overhead not being able to be touched by panther.


Also, I know Panther beat the Fantastic Four in oneof his first appearances, which includes Johnny Storm. Well, if you look at that battle, he never shrugged off a heat blast of johnny's. Instead he trapped him ina frakin gbox. Yes, it is a good feat to defeat the F4, but he fought them by getting the drop on them in a special roomed he designed to fight them. It's like Batman defeating someone in the batcave. it might still be a good feat, but it has ver ylittel relevance to this battle in any way.

Winner- Sunfire

 

[Harlekin]

FINAL COMMENTS: Graviton vs Iron Man

BUT, this does prove a point I was making. As pointed out, the only character refered to as being drugged is Purple Man in New Avengers #1. It was my statement that none of the other characters were drugged.

But they had to be, otherwise it would be impossible to hold them. You don't just hold Count Nefaria or Graviton through a simple jail cell. Considering they only referenced the drugs as power inhibitors, they lead to the most logical conclusion.

Either way, In Iron Man #8, we see the battle, and Harlekin even gives us a few of the pictures (but, not the best ones, where Graviton is handing the entire New Avengers their butts and using his powers to their fullest extent).

Fullest extent? If you want, I really can post the scans to that battle, but I'll think they'll be more damning to you than to me. Anyone who has read this debate, or simply read up on Graviton knows that is far from Graviton's fullest capabilities. Handling a couple of street level characters is pretty beneath Graviton's power.

I point this out because if Graviton was being drugged, he should have the same problem as Purple Man, which is no ability to use his powers. This isn't the case; thus, it must be assumed that he isn't drugged and weakened upon escape.

If there is any conclusion to be made, it is either that Graviton purposefully did not use his full power, or he was weakened. I'm sorry, but as I've pointed out, there's so much more and better Graviton can do than slap around Spider-Man, Captain America, Luke Cage, Wolverine and Spider-Woman.

WINNER=GRAVITON

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Sunfire

Prep Time will go to Panther, but it is difficult to say how much he can really use. I'm not sure he knows this Sunfire, but he does know the other one. This will allow him to prepare, but he might be expecting some differences since this is really a different person which makes it hard to judge what he will really prepare.

Sunfire has visited this reality before, and there's quite the possibility Black Panther will know of that encounter. Otherwise, as you point out, he's familiar with the name, so he'll prepare for that at least.

as for the fight, Sunfire's main weapon is her heat. Now, most are saying that Black Panther has a suit with a vibranium weave and everything. yes. He does, and that suit would definately help him from the concusson of hte blasts, but not necessarily the heat of the blast.

Sunfire is severely hampered by the location though, here. Hell's Kitchen - populated. Hell's Kitchen is densely built area of New York, practically bustling with people. Beyond the fact that Black Panther has the element of surprise, she's not even really going to be able to use her powers in an effective way, in the fear that she'll kill people.

Sunfire would just have to rais ethe temp up high enough until he eventually passes out. Panther could stand it a while because of his endurance and overall ca-do attitude, but eventually he would drop. All the while Sunfire just flies overhead not being able to be touched by panther.

This strategy has a few weak points:
- Populated area, so she can't get too hot.
- She would have to find the Panther.
- She would have to hit the Panther.
- Panther is prepared for heat. He'll take something along to protect him from it.

Now, I've outlined my strategy in my opening post (including a bit about the Johnny Storm) defeat. I'm sorry, but Sunfire just doesn't stand much of a chance against an opponent she can't go all-out against, and one she won't even be able to find.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Phaedrus45]

I'll just say it again. Purple Man was the only one referenced as being drugged. He didn't have any power over Power Man. Graviton used his powers very, very effectively. BUT, he has sustained some kind of brain damage, as mentioned earlier. We know that cells can be made to block out powers, that you just don't have to use drugs. I believe with the power out, it made those with powers able to use them. I believe that Graviton's brain damage is what causes his appearing "weak." BUT, Iron Man had no problem with him, and could have killed him, if not for having Captain America stop him. This was because of the Extremis Armor.

We'll have to let the voters decide in the end. That's my viewpoint, and I know you have an opposing view point. I believe the evidence of Purple Man speaks for itself, and the evidence that there is a way to defeat Graviton if you have a knowledge of his character.

I rest my case. Let the jury decide my characters fate.

Winner = Iron Man

 

[Phaedrus45]

I've decided to concede Tana Nile vs. Damien Hellstrom. She'd know nothing about him, and this is a populated location, which helps Damien with his followers being nearby and him able to feed off of. I've thought it over, and I believe Hellstrom would win this. Bad draw for me!

 

[Ahura Mazda]

This handbook includes what you mention. As it says, "the Scarlet Witch, in attempting to summon other Avengers, inadvertently caused Wonder Man to partially cross over from the world of the dead; she was able to fully restore him to life not long afterward." Remember, much of Scarlet Witch's powers are random happenstance. As the bio points out, the was "inadvertent" in the first place. Plus, Wonder Man is a being of ionic energy, too. What powers she has over organic matter is already described in the bio I provided, which really is pretty accurate for the Scarlet Witch all of us would be facing.

It includes orgainic matter, that is all I am saying.

When Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver joined, it created an uproar among civilians and U.S. government alike. Again, it's a strange thing to be arguing that Frankie Raye would be somewhat familiar with her, especially since I've pointed out twice that it would be just what she remembered from news and such.

And you are assuming this happened before she became a herald when this was in the 60s. Iam stating she was in space when the Scarlet witch joinned and in any case there was no profile on what powers she had. From that name it could just mean it is a witch who deals in blood.

I would ask when any member of the Avengers ever came into contact with Frankie Raye. She was a Herald for a short time, after all. Silver Surfer and some other Heralds I would agree with. Nova was almost a blip on the Marvel 616 radar screen.

Jack of Hearts and Quasar were both Avengers. So was Eros. Other space guys also were probably part of the roster at one time or another.

20% is terrible odds, in my opinion. In fact, it seems like Scarlet Witch will be trying to evade more than attack Nova's assault. That means, if Nova shoots cosmic bolts at her 5 times, one could very well hit her and knock her unconscious. Sounds like pretty good odds to me.

I apologise if this gets offensive but do you have an inkling of probabilities? If you are sure that 80% of the time you will succeed, you will use your powers and win. It is rare that you will lose. By the way, it also does not mean that if your powers work 4 times in a row, they will not work the 5th. It means that each time you use them the PROBABLE scenario is that they will work the way you intended. However, each time there is an off chance they will work differently. With a 4 out of 5 chance which is equivalent to a 80% probability, it will be rare that you will fail.

But, not as much as Scarlet Witch. If this is a question of who will be more effected by those nearby, I give the very human Scarlet Witch that problem.

Not if she is confident in her abilities which she is.

To point out, this is "Chaos Magic." It's very different than the other magic users. Scarlet Witch needs preparation and the ability to do "chaos magic." She's not going to rattle off spells, like Dr. Strange. All the voters have to do is really remember the type of character Scarlet Witch was in Avengers. (My memory remembers her being captured a lot.)

That is quite erroneus because many time you see her shootig hex bolts and such on the fly. Only her big spells take preperation which she has time for.

This is not 1 out of 5 times that Scarlet Witch will fail in a contest between these two. This means there is a 20% chance in this battle that one of Scarlet Witch's chaos magic spells won't work as she desires. This is not going to be a "one hit and Scarlet Witch wins" type of match. Let's not confuse the voters by taking the probability out of context.

First off, one hit can be enough give there is no recuperation from magic. Second, 4 hits is necessarily enough. Last, it is quite possible that no spell backfires giuven eahc time it is the same probability that 80% of her spells will work.

Winner = The Scarlet Witch

 

[Phaedrus45]

And you are assuming this happened before she became a herald when this was in the 60s. Iam stating she was in space when the Scarlet witch joinned and in any case there was no profile on what powers she had. From that name it could just mean it is a witch who deals in blood.

Ah, I see the confusion, maybe. Nova became a Herald for Galactus in the early 80's, during Byrne's run on the Fantastic Four. She was around in human form long enough to go through all the things I mentioned.

I apologise if this gets offensive but do you have an inkling of probabilities? If you are sure that 80% of the time you will succeed, you will use your powers and win. It is rare that you will lose. By the way, it also does not mean that if your powers work 4 times in a row, they will not work the 5th. It means that each time you use them the PROBABLE scenario is that they will work the way you intended. However, each time there is an off chance they will work differently. With a 4 out of 5 chance which is equivalent to a 80% probability, it will be rare that you will fail.

Yep, I have an inkling about probabilities; after all, I took Logic in college. Many of the battles in this tournament, especially the later rounds, won't be won in a quick second. Frankie is extremely durable, especially when fighting someone less durable, like Scarlet Witch. If Frankie Raye was fighting one of the more classic sorcerors, like Dr. Strange, Clea, or Loki, it would be a different match; but, Scarlet Witch isn't your classic Marvel spell caster. It's more about screwing up other people's powers. So, just because you screw up a shot Nova takes at you doesn't mean it won't effect the battle. (Ooops, the shot went wacky to the right, causing the building to fall on top of Scarlet Witch!) Plus, Scarlet Witch is very good to have in a team environment; but, alone on her own against a Cosmic Being....I don't think so. But, that's my opinion. The only opinion that matters is the voters.

That is quite erroneus because many time you see her shootig hex bolts and such on the fly. Only her big spells take preperation which she has time for.

The power of a Cosmic Being will have her "on the fly," I think.

First off, one hit can be enough give there is no recuperation from magic. Second, 4 hits is necessarily enough. Last, it is quite possible that no spell backfires giuven eahc time it is the same probability that 80% of her spells will work.

I'm trying to think of a time when one of her spells took out someone with the powers of a cosmic being. Let's not forget Frankie Raye is extemely durable, and has a protective fire all around her body that incinerates anything that comes too close to her.

Winner = Scarlet Witch

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Ah, I see the confusion, maybe. Nova became a Herald for Galactus in the early 80's, during Byrne's run on the Fantastic Four. She was around in human form long enough to go through all the things I mentioned.



Yep, I have an inkling about probabilities; after all, I took Logic in college. Many of the battles in this tournament, especially the later rounds, won't be won in a quick second. Frankie is extremely durable, especially when fighting someone less durable, like Scarlet Witch. If Frankie Raye was fighting one of the more classic sorcerors, like Dr. Strange, Clea, or Loki, it would be a different match; but, Scarlet Witch isn't your classic Marvel spell caster. It's more about screwing up other people's powers. So, just because you screw up a shot Nova takes at you doesn't mean it won't effect the battle. (Ooops, the shot went wacky to the right, causing the building to fall on top of Scarlet Witch!) Plus, Scarlet Witch is very good to have in a team environment; but, alone on her own against a Cosmic Being....I don't think so. But, that's my opinion. The only opinion that matters is the voters.




The power of a Cosmic Being will have her "on the fly," I think.




I'm trying to think of a time when one of her spells took out someone with the powers of a cosmic being. Let's not forget Frankie Raye is extemely durable, and has a protective fire all around her body that incinerates anything that comes too close to her.

Winner = Scarlet Witch

First off, I want to apologise for my tone last night given I was slightly inebriated having just come home after a business dinner which finished with some cognac.

I am just going to conclude that her powers were enough to severly affect Ultron who was far more durable then Nova. Also, keep in mind as an ex-herald she was not as powerful as before. And Nova's fire shield does not protect her from magical blasts. Plus with other people around she will be careful on how hot it gets.

(And oops the blast just blew up in Nova's face knocking her out. - Another possible scenarion and more probable then the one stated above.)


Anyways, I see you agree with me so we shall see how the voters decide to vote.

 

[Phaedrus45]

I'm good with ending this debate, and your tone was just fine. It's a debate, and at this stage we can't help but get a bit heated. But, thankfully we've been doing this for months and know it's not personal or anything.

My only comment would be with regards to Ultron. Ultron is very susceptable(sp?) to Scarlet Witch's powers, as I've read from a couple websites. Something about the make-up of his character combined with Scarlet Witch's powers don't work to well for Ultron. Frankie Raye would be different, especially not being a mechanical being.

Good debate, either way.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Debating Is Over!

Voting May Begin!!!

 

[Phaedrus45]

*Iron Man

*Damien Hellstrom

*Black Panther

*Frankie Raye

 

[Harlekin]

I'm so glad three of these matches were my own.

Graviton
Damion Hellstrom
Black Panther
Scarlet Witch - Great debate between you two. Considering the location (in which I feel Frankie Raye can't work too full capacity) and the fact that, at least to me, 80% are some incredibly good odds, gives the Scarlet Witch the win for me.

 

[Trigger]

Scarlet Witch
Sunfire
Gravitron
Hellstrom- I thought his name was Hell storm?

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Iron Man - If he can figure out the source of powers and disrupt them, then this is an easy win, I honestly am not sure but ended up flipping a coin, sorry
Damion Hellstrom
Black Panther - If he can beat the Hulk , I do not see him losing to Sunfire
Scarlet Witch

 

[Midnight Ice]

Graviton
Damion Hellstrom
Black Panther
Scarlet Witch