Contest of Marvels II Thread 1

[Ahura Mazda]

Tana Nile
Hellstrom
Frankie
Scarlet Witch
The Incredible Hulk

 

[JewishHobbit]

Psylocke
Hellstrom
Scarlet Witch
Cable (I think he can easily pull it off myself)

I'm going back and forth on the Hulk/BP match. It's the BP with preptime that's getting me. If not for that I think Hulk would have it 100%. Then again, this is the Hulk, and a good version of him that can adapt quicker than the dumb behemouth steriotypical hulk.

my vote.... Hulk.

 

[Trigger]

Psylocke
Hellstorm
Hulk- I'm genuinely surprised that this is still being debated.
Scarlet Witch
Frankie Raye

 

[hippy fascist]

Black Panther (He's almost as good with prep-time as batman, rematch killed it for the hulk)
Damien Hellstrom (Too much power)
Tana Nile (flexibility in powerset takes this)
Scarlet Witch
Cable (Wish I'd had time to debate him )

 

[Phaedrus45]

Final Results:

Tana Nile defeats Psylocke 5-3
Damien Hellstrom defeats Banshee 8-0
Frankie Raye defeats Cable 6-2
Scarlet Witch defeats Georgeous George 7-1
Black Panther defeats Savage Hulk 5-3

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Dammit Hippy, this was not a rematch!!!

Good one Harlekin, I think this is the only time ever that the Black panther gets to beat the Hulk.

 

[Harlekin]

Yeah, it was quite a debate, Ahura.

Steve Holt!

That's an Arrested Development reference.

 

[hippy fascist]

Dammit Hippy, this was not a rematch!!!

Good one Harlekin, I think this is the only time ever that the Black panther gets to beat the Hulk.

And you know what the worst part is? I NEVER LEARNED TO READ! ​

 

[Phaedrus45]

Bracket 1,

Match 1:

Iron Man (PHAEDRUS45) bio

vs.

Gravitron (HARLEKIN) bio

Match 2:

Tana Nile (PHAEDRUS45) bio

vs.

Damien Hellstrom (HARLEKIN) bio

 

[Phaedrus45]

Bracket 2,

Match 1:

Sunfire - Exiles (KYTRIGGER) bio



vs.

Black Panther (HARLEKIN) bio

Match 2:

Frankie Raye (PHAEDRUS45) bio

vs.

Scarlet Witch (AHURA MAZDA) bio

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Match 2:

Frankie Raye (PHAEDRUS45) bio

vs.

Scarlet Witch (AHURA MAZDA) bio

This is an interesting battle or could have been if the Scarlet Witch was not who she was.

First off let me get powers out of the way:

Initially, the Scarlet Witch had the ability to manipulate probability via her "hexes" (often manifesting physically as "hex spheres" or "hex bolts"). These hexes are relatively short range, and are limited to her line of sight. Casting a hex requires a gesture and concentration on her part, though the gestures are largely a focus for the concentration. Early in her career, her hexes were unconscious on her part, and would be automatically triggered whenever she made a particular gesture, regardless of her intent. These hexes would only manifest random "bad luck" effects: objects falling or breaking, people tripping, and so on. She later gained enough control over her powers that her powers only work when she wants them to, and they are not limited to negative effects. Despite this enhanced precision, her hexes are not necessarily guaranteed to work, particularly if she has been straining herself or using her powers excessively. If overextended, her hexes can backfire, causing probability to work against her wishes or to undo previous hexes.


Scarlet Witch in action, employing magic to augment her mutant hex, art by George Perez and Sam Grainger.Her hexes seem to have a wide, almost limitless variety of recorded and possible effects, though they often boil down to a kind of Deus Ex Machina superpower. They have been known to alter the molecular composition and physical state of physical objects, negate or distort physical laws, and to cause various forms of energy to spontaneously appear or disappear. She has an affinity with natural elements and phenomena, stemming largely from her magical training under Agatha Harkness, and has trained often at using her hexes to deflect projectiles or to cause enemies to stumble or otherwise suffer the effects of "bad luck". Writers often confuse her hex powers with psychokinesis, and have occasionally depicted them as able to generate energy blasts and to grant Wanda the power of flight[issue # needed]. Although her hexes can cause objects to suddenly move or change course, they do not have the ability to "hold on" to objects as a telekinetic might[citation needed]. Ultimately, the hexes are not under the Witch's direct control, although she can influence the nature of their effects with great concentration and effort. This makes her one of the few Avengers that Ultron fears; his adamantium shell cannot repel her magic. She has displayed the ability to cancel Longshot and Domino's powers of probability and has also once turned Longshot into a cat[issue # needed].

The first major reclassification of Wanda's fairly-indistinct hex powers came during Kurt Busiek's run on Avengers, where her power was claimed by Agatha Harkness to be an ability to manipulate chaos magic, given to her by the demon Chthon (imprisoned within Wundagore Mountain) when she was born. Her hexes were, by extension, simple, indirect manifestations of this magic, destabilising probabilities by inducing chaos.

Across Busiek's run, Wanda's powers grew continuously, as she gained the ability to manipulate organic matter and summon Wonder Man back to life.

This is before Bendis and the reality warping, so it should all be valid.

Nova is a female ex-herald who was killed by Morg. She is powerful in her own right but she has no protection against magic.

Now Scarlet Witch could hex the hell out of Frankie and she will have absolutely no defense against the chaos magic she wields.

But before I go there, prep time will be more advantageous for her as she will have complete knowledge on the location from the Avenger's database. Also, she will have knowledge of Nova given all her resources and the Avenger's database.

The issue really is she has no defense to magic and as experienced as she is, nova will find herself in severe difficulty.

Last but not least, let us not forget her chaos magic could just as well transform Nova back into a a human just as easily as it could cause her to shoot herself.

There is no defense against the magic she wields and Nova is at best a 2nd to third tier ex-herald.

Really the decision that the voter must make is whether Nova can withstand the Scarlet Witch's magic, something which not even Ultron could protect against.

Winner - Scarlet Witch

 

[Phaedrus45]

LOCATION: Hell's Kitchen (Populated)

In the Marvel Comics universe, Hell's Kitchen is the home base of the superheroes Daredevil and The Punisher, and the birthplace of Nick Fury.

To read up on this location, you can look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%27...n%2C_Manhattan

 

[Harlekin]

OPENING COMMENTS: Graviton vs Iron Man

Now, I have a feeling my opponent will be referencing this from Wikipedia: "Graviton was last seen, apparently alive and well, escaping the Raft (a metahuman prison). he fought and bested the New Avengers, but was defeated and almost killed by Iron Man after Hall severely injured Spider-Man." What I want you guys to know though, is that not only did he best the New Avengers before that moment, Graviton was caught off guard, and he was drugged up on power inhibitors from the Raft. Although the fight is legit, it doesn't really change anything, since Graviton has still beaten Iron Man more times than the other way around.

It is here where Graviton (in his first appearance, while holding up an island) deflects Iron Man's blast by simply throwing up the floor. He proceeds to knocking him out in this scan. Not much later, Iron Man is up against a slab, unable to move a muscle, here. Iron Man is freed by Black Panther, and engages Graviton again. Instead of defeating him however, both he and Thor are bested by Graviton once more.

Now, I know, this is before Iron Man received any significant upgrades, but the same goes for Graviton. Not only that, but even with his original power levels intact, Graviton is capable of besting Iron Man again, together with the West Coast Avengers. By this time, Iron Man has gotten a little more powerful than in his previous appearances (as he has a tendency to do). Graviton doesn't take the assault lightly, and even while distracted continues, and proceeds to deal with Hawkeye as well here. Of course even then, at maximum intensity Iron Man only dents his shield. Heck, he's even capable of taking a punch from Wonder Man.

Naturally, Iron Man tries something desperate and blasts Graviton but it is to no avail. It is only the surprise gas arrow by Hawkeye that almost defeats Graviton, but he deals with that as well, only knocked out because of the continuing exertion of his powers. He hadn't had any upgrades by this time, which I'll tell you about in a second, since I'll post this scan as well, where Graviton downs the Avengers in the WCA's own ongoing title. The only reason he was defeated was again because of lack of control and/or too much exertion, something that's only ever really been brought on by a whole group of Avengers.

As I noted though, Graviton's powers increased, a lot. When he returned in the pages of the Thunderbolts, he pulled off some amazing things. He's literally held most of the superheroes in the world up in the air, levitated dozens of cities across the globe AND fought the Thunderbolts. He has unlimited power over gravity. He was capable of hurling a pebble from China to Australia, killing one single person. That's the magnitude and refinement of his powers. And something I can't get enough of: Even in his first appearance he held up an island, immobilized the Avengers and fought Thor simultaneously.

There are two things that dramatically influence this match even more. Both characters know each other in and out, and Graviton will be ignoring Iron Man's attacks on his person, or in a worst case scenario, he's going to get pissed and kill Iron Man then and there. The second thing that really pulls things in Graviton's favour is the location. It's Hell's Kitchen, populated. Graviton hasn't given a crap about civilian/innocent lives since as long as we've known him, Iron Man on the other hand? He's a hero. Graviton can draw Iron Man out by preying on the innocent, he can simply left up the entirety of Hell's Kitchen and throw into space, or he can just watch as Iron Man tries to save dozens of innocent lives while Graviton slowly dismantles his armour.

Power, knowledge, location.

WINNER=GRAVITON (credits to ExodusCloak for scans)

 

[Harlekin]

OPENING COMMENTS: Damion Hellstrom vs Tana Nile

I really like the irony of the Son of Satan and ruler of Hell to be fighting in Hell's Kitchen. Heck, Damion will probably get a chuckle out of it just as much. As for the battle though, the logical victor here is Hellstrom. Prep-time is a wash. Neither will know of the other, not even faintly, so they won't exactly be able to prepare. In a comparison of powers, Tana falls short. Her stasis gun can't stand up to Hellstrom's shields or blasts of (hell)fire, and it's doubtful her psionic control would be able to affect Hellstrom.

To borrow a page from the Marvel website:

Powers
Hellstorm possesses vast magical power, enhanced by the number and faith of his worshippers. He can fly or transport himself and other beings and objects (even buildings) across the planet and to other realms via travel through Hell; he can even travel through time. He can project true fire; hellfire, able to cause spiritual pain; and destructive energies able to devastate a house or slay even beings of great magical power. He can form and shatter mystic shields, tear thoughts from minds, and heal injuries and ailments in himself or others. Though he is only slightly stronger than human, his powers can amplify his strength to higher levels. He can alter his garments and appearance at will, taking on a more demonic appearance, in some cases including hooves, fangs, and

wings. His powers, formerly dependent on the Darksoul within him, are greatest within his own realm of Hell.

Abilities
Hellstorm is highly intelligent and an expert in the occult, specifically in demonology and theology. He can perform complex and powerful magical rites.

Let's recap here: Daimon is the ruthless Lord of Hell, Tana Nile is a Rigellian alien that (not as a dig to the character, but a statement) hasn't really done anything all too impressive. He can withstand her physical powers, her concussive blasts are useless, and he can counter, if not just plain defend himself against any psionic attacks from her. Considering he also shows no sympathy towards anyone but a select few people, he'll probably have no problem with it if Hell's Kitchen is largely destroyed after this encounter.

WINNER=DAMION HELLSTROM

 

[Harlekin]

OPENING COMMENTS: Black Panther vs Sunfire (Exiles)

Ah, my dear Black Panther, never leave me. Now, I'm sad to say I like Sunfire quite a bit, so it's too bad she got matched up against the Panther here. As the sovereign king of Wakanda and a superhero member of the Avengers, he has numerous advantages over Sunfire here. Firstly, his suit will protect him from what Sunfire can throw at him in this populated area, while he'll be able to prepare for her on the simple basis of A) her name and B) having visited this reality before.

Black Panther's stealth capabilities and agility will make sure that not only he'll be able to avoid Sunfire, but he'll be able to take her by surprise. Together with a window of 24 hours in order to prepare, the Panther can fashion some impressive stuff. He could, for example, take along something like this, a device he used in his first appearance to defeat the Human Torch. Since Sunfire's powers are dependant on sunlight, he could similarly block the sunlight from reaching her, or have her expend her powers on traps he can fashion in Hell's Kitchen when he arrives.

He can also go for a more traditional approach. The Panther is also an expert marksman, so through a mixture of herbs or gases, he could develop a quick tranquilizer to sedate her. After all, beyond the flame manipulating powers, she is only human. It's here that I would like to repeat the fact that no matter what, in this battle, the Panther has the advantage of surprise. His technology will allow him to track her, and she has no way in which to find him. He can avoid detection quite easily, and could even go so far as to simply change into civilian gear.

Perhaps if Sunfire were more ruthless and not a hero, she would able to offer an approiate defense against Panther's assault. Sadly, T'Challa is too intelligent, resourceful and to stealthy for her to properly deal with. He's got the skills to take her down, and he will make sure that she goes down painlessly.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Phaedrus45]

Iron Man vs. Gravitron:

Gravitron has an impressive record; but, the one thing you notice in his bio is that he is most impressive when his opponents do not know how to handle his powers. This is not the case with Iron Man; and, it really sucks that Gravitron got handed this battle, from a genius who can take prep-time to his fullest advantage.

I want to point out a couple very important quotes:

(Speaking about the Thunderbolts) They were freed by the Thunderbolt Jolt, who borrowed technology derived from X-51 (aka Machine Man) whose flight capabilities were powered by "cancelling out the gravity equation." Now unaffected by Hall's power, the Thunderbolts escaped and continued to battle, ultimately cancelling Hall's access to his power. When Hall regained his power, gravitational force rushed inward, collapsing inward on himself. He was shunted to another dimension once again.

And:

Graviton was last seen, apparently alive and well, escaping the Raft (a metahuman prison). he fought and bested the New Avengers, but was defeated and almost killed by Iron Man after Hall severely injured Spider-Man.

I want to point out that you are only as good as your last appearance, and it seems to me that once a group or hero understands Gravitron's powers that it makes defeating much, much easier. Clearly, Iron Man has an understanding of Gravitron. Since Gravitron was difficult for this New Avengers team to defeat, until Iron Man came along, it shows he was still very powerful. But, looking at the New Avengers, that first appearance, many of them aren't suited to take out Gravitron. Iron Man is. Tony Stark will know of the same information that the Thunderbolts discovered from Machine Man...Tony Stark will have all of his past encounters as information in defeating Gravitron....and, most importantly, Tony Stark has 24 hours to come up with the means to defeat his opponent, an opponent he's met and defeated before.

Remember, Gravitron's powers are actually very simplistic:

Hall is able to manipulate gravitons for various uses, including the projection of concussive blasts, formation of force fields and levitation, and has also proven capable of generating gravitational fields in various objects, making them attract any nearby matter (or individuals) not heavy enough or physically strong enough to resist.

When you know how to handle those powers, as Iron Man clearly would, his defeat is inevitable.

Winner = Iron Man

 

[Phaedrus45]

OPENING COMMENTS: Graviton vs Iron Man

Now, I have a feeling my opponent will be referencing this from Wikipedia: "Graviton was last seen, apparently alive and well, escaping the Raft (a metahuman prison). he fought and bested the New Avengers, but was defeated and almost killed by Iron Man after Hall severely injured Spider-Man." What I want you guys to know though, is that not only did he best the New Avengers before that moment, Graviton was caught off guard, and he was drugged up on power inhibitors from the Raft. Although the fight is legit, it doesn't really change anything, since Graviton has still beaten Iron Man more times than the other way around.

I won't go point by point, because while I do bring up that quote, I bring up the one that's more important:

the Thunderbolt Jolt, who borrowed technology derived from X-51 (aka Machine Man) whose flight capabilities were powered by "cancelling out the gravity equation." Now unaffected by Hall's power, the Thunderbolts escaped and continued to battle, ultimately cancelling Hall's access to his power.

Gravitron has met defeat recently WHEN his opponents understand his powers and how to counter them. Clearly, Iron Man, especially with 24 hours prep-time, will know this. Gravitron wasn't so weak when Iron Man defeated him last time, for the other New Avengers weren't able to handle his powers. Iron Man did, because he understood how to defeat Gravitron. Plus, while the location is populated and it would seem that Tony might be preoccupied saving those individuals, Tony knows the only way to save the most people is to take out Gravitron. If there are casualities, it would be a lot more if he doesn't keep his focus on the task at hand.

History sides with Iron Man. Gravitron, while very powerful, is a one-trick pony, in that his powers only deal with manipulating gravitrons. With the information available to Tony Stark, that knowledge is available, and he clearly comes out the victor. For Gravitron, this is a bad-luck-of-the-draw. There are a couple people who have the brains to tackle him, which are geniuses like Tony Stark and Mr. Fantastic. Prep-time also clearly benefits Tony, too.

Winner = Iron Man

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

Gravitron has an impressive record; but, the one thing you notice in his bio is that he is most impressive when his opponents do not know how to handle his powers. This is not the case with Iron Man; and, it really sucks that Gravitron got handed this battle, from a genius who can take prep-time to his fullest advantage.

Most impressive when his opponents do not know how to handle his powers? Is that why he schooled the Avengers on more than three occasions? Iron Man has a definite prep-time advantage, but it'll be of no effect in this match.

I want to point out that you are only as good as your last appearance, and it seems to me that once a group or hero understands Gravitron's powers that it makes defeating much, much easier. Clearly, Iron Man has an understanding of Gravitron. Since Gravitron was difficult for this New Avengers team to defeat, until Iron Man came along, it shows he was still very powerful. But, looking at the New Avengers, that first appearance, many of them aren't suited to take out Gravitron. Iron Man is. Tony Stark will know of the same information that the Thunderbolts discovered from Machine Man...Tony Stark will have all of his past encounters as information in defeating Gravitron....and, most importantly, Tony Stark has 24 hours to come up with the means to defeat his opponent, an opponent he's met and defeated before.

His last appearance was a weakened drugged up Graviton. That shouldn't count towards the character at all, but even then, he's got a 24 hour prep-time to get rid of the weakening effects. Iron Man didn't really do much more than blast at him, getting a lucky shot and knocking him out. And the NA really aren't an appropriate gauge for power, since they're all street level with the exception of Iron Man (and Sentry, who he didn't fight).

As for that information, I doubt it. The Avengers and the Thunderbolts were hesitant to trust one another, especially in the later phases. All Iron Man will know are his own past encounters, where he was himself beaten every time. Even if he could try something similar to what Machine Man did, to arrange and build it in 24 hours? Doubtful.

Remember, Gravitron's powers are actually very simplistic

They may be simplistic, but very powerful and very versatile. The man has unlimited control of gravity. If he wants to, he can shunt Hell's Kitchen, with Iron Man along with it, into space.

Gravitron has met defeat recently WHEN his opponents understand his powers and how to counter them. Clearly, Iron Man, especially with 24 hours prep-time, will know this.

Again, really doubtful the Thunderbolts willingly share this info with the Avengers. They were never on good terms with each other, and I don't recall an instance where they willingly traded information. Even then, Iron Man would have to pull it off, even though Graviton can still affect everything around him anyway.

Gravitron wasn't so weak when Iron Man defeated him last time, for the other New Avengers weren't able to handle his powers. Iron Man did, because he understood how to defeat Gravitron.

Please, the New Avengers are far from impressive. And Iron Man got lucky. If Graviton hadn't been weakened (lest we forget, he's taken blows unhindered from Thor and Wonder Man), Iron Man and the others would've been screwed.

Plus, while the location is populated and it would seem that Tony might be preoccupied saving those individuals, Tony knows the only way to save the most people is to take out Gravitron. If there are casualities, it would be a lot more if he doesn't keep his focus on the task at hand.

Yeah, I'm not buying this. He's not going to ignore innocent people dying. He's always been a hero, and he's always been concerned with civilian lives. Marvel's recent tinkering with Iron Man might suggest that he'd do this, but no, I'm not buying it, and I hope the voters won't either.

History sides with Iron Man.

I think you've got that backwards. History sides with Graviton, multiple times.

Gravitron, while very powerful, is a one-trick pony, in that his powers only deal with manipulating gravitrons. With the information available to Tony Stark, that knowledge is available, and he clearly comes out the victor. For Gravitron, this is a bad-luck-of-the-draw. There are a couple people who have the brains to tackle him, which are geniuses like Tony Stark and Mr. Fantastic. Prep-time also clearly benefits Tony, too.

- "Only" manipulating individuals? Are you kidding me? Terms like "just" and "only" don't really apply when it comes to Graviton's powers. He's got unlimited control of gravity.
- Again, I'm not sure that information will be available to him. He'll have his past encounters (which haven't worked in his favour), and Graviton's psych profile, which is useless, because Graviton will make sure to ignore him.

WINNER=GRAVITON

 

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

Most impressive when his opponents do not know how to handle his powers? Is that why he schooled the Avengers on more than three occasions? Iron Man has a definite prep-time advantage, but it'll be of no effect in this match.

There are various people in this contest where prep-time is the biggest of advantages, including Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Black Panther (as noted last round). 24 hours is more than enough time to come up with a very adequate battle plan. Plus, Gravitron "schooling" the Avengers is past history...Iron Man schooling Gravitron (without 24 hours prep-time) is recent history. And, Gravitron's weakness being discovered by the Thunderbolts is also recent history.

His last appearance was a weakened drugged up Graviton. That shouldn't count towards the character at all, but even then, he's got a 24 hour prep-time to get rid of the weakening effects. Iron Man didn't really do much more than blast at him, getting a lucky shot and knocking him out. And the NA really aren't an appropriate gauge for power, since they're all street level with the exception of Iron Man (and Sentry, who he didn't fight).

First, I'm going to have to look at this issue to see if the representations are correct. Second, this issue does count, especially showing how someone of Tony Stark's abilities and knowledge took out Gravitron quite easily, and those without experience failed. But, I understand the need to discount this issue, as it shows Tony quite easily handing Gravitron his butt.

As for that information, I doubt it. The Avengers and the Thunderbolts were hesitant to trust one another, especially in the later phases. All Iron Man will know are his own past encounters, where he was himself beaten every time. Even if he could try something similar to what Machine Man did, to arrange and build it in 24 hours? Doubtful.

But, it wasn't just the Thunderbolts fighting Gravitron. You had Archangel of the X-Men and the Great Lakes Avengers. This was a major battle, and the Avengers would definitely have record of it, especially since it involved one of the major baddies. And, Tony has been shown to come up with stuff easily within a 24 hour time frame...but, more than likely he has something that will effectively take out Gravitron already around, just in case he posed a threat again.

This brings about the fact that Tony has the advantage of being able to surprise Gravitron. He can have ways to blend into the environment and the people around. This doesn't have to automatically be a fight. Tony could have the device on his person to disable Gravitron's abilities without Gravitron realizing he's near.

They may be simplistic, but very powerful and very versatile. The man has unlimited control of gravity. If he wants to, he can shunt Hell's Kitchen, with Iron Man along with it, into space.

Ok, let's take this waaaaay out theory. Tony can survive in space. If you move all of Hell's Kitchen into space, the location is still there...in space. How is Gravitron now that he's either in space or not in the location any longer? DOH!

Again, really doubtful the Thunderbolts willingly share this info with the Avengers. They were never on good terms with each other, and I don't recall an instance where they willingly traded information. Even then, Iron Man would have to pull it off, even though Graviton can still affect everything around him anyway.

This was a major battle that involved more than just the Thunderbolts, as explained above. Yep, he'd have that information, and I think he'd clearly be able to use the prep-time to his advantage.

Please, the New Avengers are far from impressive. And Iron Man got lucky. If Graviton hadn't been weakened (lest we forget, he's taken blows unhindered from Thor and Wonder Man), Iron Man and the others would've been screwed.

But, once a team, like the Thunderbolts, discovers his weakness, he's quickly taken out. That would happen. Again, bad luck of the draw for Gravitron.

Yeah, I'm not buying this. He's not going to ignore innocent people dying. He's always been a hero, and he's always been concerned with civilian lives. Marvel's recent tinkering with Iron Man might suggest that he'd do this, but no, I'm not buying it, and I hope the voters won't either.

Tony Stark is not your average super-hero, for one thing. He weighs the pros with the cons, and it will be obvious what he needs to do, especially when he's had sufficient time to think things over. He's concerned with civilian lives, yes....but, he'll be more concerned with his own and, borrowing a saying from Star Trek II, the good of the many outweighing the needs of the few.

I think you've got that backwards. History sides with Graviton, multiple times.

Hmmmm...how does history show Gravitron coming out in the end? Plus, again, the two most recent appearances show that once you know how to combat Gravitron, he's taken out quite easily.


Winner = Iron Man

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

There are various people in this contest where prep-time is the biggest of advantages, including Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Black Panther (as noted last round). 24 hours is more than enough time to come up with a very adequate battle plan. Plus, Gravitron "schooling" the Avengers is past history...Iron Man schooling Gravitron (without 24 hours prep-time) is recent history. And, Gravitron's weakness being discovered by the Thunderbolts is also recent history.

Iron Man certainly gains some advantage from knowing who Graviton is, but it's countered by the fact that Graviton also knows who Iron Man is, and lest we forget, Frank Hall is also a brilliant scientist.

First, I'm going to have to look at this issue to see if the representations are correct. Second, this issue does count, especially showing how someone of Tony Stark's abilities and knowledge took out Gravitron quite easily, and those without experience failed. But, I understand the need to discount this issue, as it shows Tony quite easily handing Gravitron his butt.

We know for a fact that Graviton was weakened. Early on in the issue there's references to the villains being drugged, and there's no other logical explanation for Graviton's weakening. Besides that, you're ignoring the fact that he also now has 24 hours to rid himself of the drugs (if we should even allow that as they were a temporary alteration to his character, not a permanent one). It's not just about the Iron Man thing, it's about unfair representation of my character.

But, it wasn't just the Thunderbolts fighting Gravitron. You had Archangel of the X-Men and the Great Lakes Avengers. This was a major battle, and the Avengers would definitely have record of it, especially since it involved one of the major baddies. And, Tony has been shown to come up with stuff easily within a 24 hour time frame...but, more than likely he has something that will effectively take out Gravitron already around, just in case he posed a threat again.

Who ultimately beat Graviton? The Thunderbolts. They knew how to do it, and they're not going to share that info with the Avengers. They'll have a record of it, and a note of the fact that Graviton was beaten by the T-Bolts, but nothing more. We also can't assume he has something to take down Graviton, because we never saw this, and he obviously didn't use it the last three/four times he got schooled.

This brings about the fact that Tony has the advantage of being able to surprise Gravitron. He can have ways to blend into the environment and the people around. This doesn't have to automatically be a fight. Tony could have the device on his person to disable Gravitron's abilities without Gravitron realizing he's near.

Graviton isn't going to waste time. He's going to take people hostage, kill people etc. etc. Buildings will be going up into space. Graviton hates the Avengers, and won't hesitate to destroy everything in his path to get to Iron Man. Unless Iron Man doesn't want the population of Hell's Kitchen to be violently murdered, he needs to act pretty fast.

Ok, let's take this waaaaay out theory. Tony can survive in space. If you move all of Hell's Kitchen into space, the location is still there...in space. How is Gravitron now that he's either in space or not in the location any longer? DOH!

I know you're going for the humour here, but it's missing the point. Besides the fact that Hell's Kitchen is a designation for a general area, and not necessarily the buildings and people, the fact remains that Graviton's powers are sufficiently great to just lift up Hell's Kitchen and flip it around.

Tony Stark is not your average super-hero, for one thing. He weighs the pros with the cons, and it will be obvious what he needs to do, especially when he's had sufficient time to think things over. He's concerned with civilian lives, yes....but, he'll be more concerned with his own and, borrowing a saying from Star Trek II, the good of the many outweighing the needs of the few.

- I never said he was an average superhero, but his morals are very alike.
- Again, Tony doesn't stand by as innocent people are killed. I'd actually like to see an example of Tony showing such behaviour. He can be Machevellian, but not in such a manner.
- How about: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Hmmmm...how does history show Gravitron coming out in the end? Plus, again, the two most recent appearances show that once you know how to combat Gravitron, he's taken out quite easily.

History shows Graviton coming out in the end because he's schooled everyone he's met since his first appearance. In the end, Graviton is always beaten though, because he's the villain. That's kinda his function in a comic. In a competition like this, his power and ruthlessness allow for victory.

WINNER=GRAVITON

 

[Harlekin]

EXTRA COMMENTS TO REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

From the Marvel Comics page:

However, Graviton was later seen among those villains incarcerated in the Raft and was attempting an escape during the mass breakout engineered by Electro. He was confronted by heroes who would become the new Avengers, but he easily put them all on the ropes until the arrival of Iron Man. Iron Man got the drop on Graviton by flying in at an extreme speed and fired a new heat beam from his chestplate at the villain, nearly killing him if not for Captain America’s order to stand down. During this battle, Graviton exhibited a new scar on his shaved head, and he behaved erratically and irrationally, often babbling. Perhaps there is more to his recent appearance that has yet to be revealed.

So not only did Iron Man take him by surprise, an advantage he won't have on a prepared Graviton, Graviton also behaved very uncharacteristically. Therefore, I personally say we mostly ignore this issue, since it's not an accurate presentation of Graviton. Lest we forget, around the same time, we had villains that should've been dead breaking Spidey's arms and Carnage as a sort of vampire (similar to his Ultimate version) rather than a symbiote killer. This is just one instant of out-of-character and out-of-depth writing as opposed to a long history of well... ownage.

WINNER=GRAVITON

 

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

Iron Man certainly gains some advantage from knowing who Graviton is, but it's countered by the fact that Graviton also knows who Iron Man is, and lest we forget, Frank Hall is also a brilliant scientist.

Yes, Frank Hall is a scientist, but I wouldn't say "brilliant." Remember, the only reason he has his powers is because he screwed up an experiment. Plus, Moonstone had to school him in how to make himself more powerful. There is nothing in the comics that shows Gravitron making stuff to further his powers or anything else for that matter. Also, being a labeled a scientist does not compare in any way to Tony's genius. Finally, Frank doesn't have the resources that Tony does in gaining information about his opponents.

We know for a fact that Graviton was weakened. Early on in the issue there's references to the villains being drugged, and there's no other logical explanation for Graviton's weakening. Besides that, you're ignoring the fact that he also now has 24 hours to rid himself of the drugs (if we should even allow that as they were a temporary alteration to his character, not a permanent one). It's not just about the Iron Man thing, it's about unfair representation of my character.

I'm not ignoring anything. It just wouldn't cause Toney concern. 24 hour prep-time, the knowledge that Gravitron does have a weakness to his powers that is knowledge to those in the know, and the fact that Iron Man took Gravitron down so easily when the other New Avengers had trouble points to one conclusion.

Who ultimately beat Graviton? The Thunderbolts. They knew how to do it, and they're not going to share that info with the Avengers. They'll have a record of it, and a note of the fact that Graviton was beaten by the T-Bolts, but nothing more. We also can't assume he has something to take down Graviton, because we never saw this, and he obviously didn't use it the last three/four times he got schooled.

The Thunderbolts are associated with the government. The Avengers are associated with the government. Even with this being before Civil War, Tony had government access. There is no doubt in my mind Tony knows this information. (Even the prison in which Gravitron was being held would realize what his weakness is and how he was defeated.)

Graviton isn't going to waste time. He's going to take people hostage, kill people etc. etc. Buildings will be going up into space. Graviton hates the Avengers, and won't hesitate to destroy everything in his path to get to Iron Man. Unless Iron Man doesn't want the population of Hell's Kitchen to be violently murdered, he needs to act pretty fast.

Tony isn't one to act unrationally. He's not going to risk everything by acting foolish. He'd have a plan, and he's dealt with Gravitron and knows what to expect.

- I never said he was an average superhero, but his morals are very alike.
- Again, Tony doesn't stand by as innocent people are killed. I'd actually like to see an example of Tony showing such behaviour. He can be Machevellian, but not in such a manner.
- How about: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Again, Tony is not foolish. He will realize what Gravitron will do, and he will know to not focus his attention on Gravitron is to suffer possible defeat. The fact remains that Tony will know what to do, and he won't have a problem doing that.

History shows Graviton coming out in the end because he's schooled everyone he's met since his first appearance. In the end, Graviton is always beaten though, because he's the villain. That's kinda his function in a comic. In a competition like this, his power and ruthlessness allow for victory.

The last two defeats, as I've said, show what has happened to this character in today's comic world. Those who have battled him and knows his weaknesses can easily defeat him. Those qualities are what makes up Tony Stark.

Again, if there was a character that Gravitron could face that would really screw up his plans for future success in this contest, maybe Magneto would be #1...#2 is clearly Iron Man.

Winner = Iron Man

 

[Phaedrus45]

(BTW, our other two battles in this thread will be done. I have my battle plan, but I really need to research the past appearances by Hellstrom and Wanda. There powers are such that I need to look at what they've done in the past to see how things truly work.)

 

[JewishHobbit]

And you know what the worst part is? I NEVER LEARNED TO READ! ​

WAYNE'S WORLD!! YES! Belly Roles All Around

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

Yes, Frank Hall is a scientist, but I wouldn't say "brilliant." Remember, the only reason he has his powers is because he screwed up an experiment. Plus, Moonstone had to school him in how to make himself more powerful. There is nothing in the comics that shows Gravitron making stuff to further his powers or anything else for that matter. Also, being a labeled a scientist does not compare in any way to Tony's genius. Finally, Frank doesn't have the resources that Tony does in gaining information about his opponents.

Not brilliant? Even though pretty much every source refers to him as being one? Yes, Moonstone had to help him define some of the finer aspects of his powers, but that was because Graviton was looking at the big picture too much. Lack of imagination and all that.

And really, most brilliant scientists get their powers from failed experiments (Sasquatch for one). Heck, he was still able to built a beacon that transcended dimensions (which is what brought him back into the Earth dimension).

I'm not ignoring anything. It just wouldn't cause Toney concern. 24 hour prep-time, the knowledge that Gravitron does have a weakness to his powers that is knowledge to those in the know, and the fact that Iron Man took Gravitron down so easily when the other New Avengers had trouble points to one conclusion.

Of course Tony knows of a few of Graviton's weakness. Overexertion and his fragile psyche. Also, as I point out, the Graviton depicted during his battle with the NA was nothing like his previous appearances and in a rare moment for him, was taken by surprise.

The Thunderbolts are associated with the government. The Avengers are associated with the government. Even with this being before Civil War, Tony had government access. There is no doubt in my mind Tony knows this information. (Even the prison in which Gravitron was being held would realize what his weakness is and how he was defeated.)

- The Thunderbolts were not associated with the government at that time. They started out that way, but by the time they first fought Graviton, they were fugitives, remember?
- It's doubtful they would've shared this info with anyone else, especially the government.
- The Avengers and Fantastic Four were out of town.
- The T-Bolts didn't even take him down that easily, seeing as he still held them off and resisted punches from them. Besides, do you really think Graviton is going to get punked by that trick again? He'll make sure to keep everything out of his way. He knows Iron Man is dangerous, and if he even came up with the idea, much like with the T-Bolts, the anti-gravity stuff will run out of power.

Tony isn't one to act unrationally. He's not going to risk everything by acting foolish. He'd have a plan, and he's dealt with Gravitron and knows what to expect. [...] Again, Tony is not foolish. He will realize what Gravitron will do, and he will know to not focus his attention on Gravitron is to suffer possible defeat. The fact remains that Tony will know what to do, and he won't have a problem doing that.

I never said he wouldn't have a plan. All I'm saying is that Iron Man isn't going to watch people die. Now I'm going to leave this point up to the voters to decide if Tony is such a hero or not. I personally believe he isn't, and you haven't shown anything to the contrary. And again, if Tony somehow magically gets this information, Graviton is smart enough to prepare for it.

The last two defeats, as I've said, show what has happened to this character in today's comic world. Those who have battled him and knows his weaknesses can easily defeat him. Those qualities are what makes up Tony Stark.

Never easily. His first battle with the T-Bolts was still hard fought, even after they had found out how to beat him. This is was still while he was "unexperienced". After that, he started doing stuff like shifting the tectonic plates of the moon. And a feat I'm particularly fond off: While on the moon, shooting a pebble from China into a woman's head in Australia. He violently murders the Redeemers, and keeps up the game by lifting up more than 20 cities into the air with nary a sweat. To make matters worse, he has every mainstream hero on the planet hanging upside down in the air, helpless. The only reason he's beaten is because Moonstone psychs him out, the woman he had come to fall in love with. And for the record, Moonstones states that if Graviton hadn't wanted it, he could've killed the Thunderbolts then and there, even with the gravity disrupters.

Again, Graviton is never beaten easily.

Again, if there was a character that Gravitron could face that would really screw up his plans for future success in this contest, maybe Magneto would be #1...#2 is clearly Iron Man.

If that were true, Iron Man wouldn't haven't gotten his ass beat all those times before.

I repeat: Power, knowledge, location.

WINNER=GRAVITON