Contest of Marvels II Thread 2

[WOLVERINE25TH]

NAMORITA vs. WOLVERINE

Namorita is NOT Namor. She may have some form of his abilities, she may be related to him in some fashion, but she is not him. That's important to remember when thinking about this match.

Without water to help keep her powers at their peak, the playing field is leveled. As it were. The harsh climate changes of the Microverse could play havok on someone like Namorita. Wolverine, however, has trudged through the icy Canadian wilderness buck freakin' nekkid without losing his stride, so it's safe to say he's got some resistance there.

Namorita, for all her skills, isn't much of a fighter when compared to Wolverine. He is heavily trained, he has animalistic instincts, and he's faced bigger and badder opponents before (and I'm talking back in the it takes a couple hours to heal days).

Let's not forget that as a trained op Wolverine has a gift for improvization, something sorely needed in this erradic environment. Namorita could fly, sure, but that could prove to be her undoing should the climate shift to make the skies unfriendly. It comes down to a brawl between the two. With his healing factor, Wolvie can take a lot of punishment. Sans one, Namorita dare not take a good hit from him as his claws will do a number on her. If he doesn't land the killing stroke, the blood loss will eventually take her out of the fight.

Wolverine, the REAL Wolverine, is the best there is at what he does. Don't ever forget that.

WINNER: WOLVERINE

 

[Phaedrus45]

For example, I would anticipate defence spells such as an impenetrable (to magic, telepathy, as well as physical attack) forcefield to allow him time to develop strategies when he arrives, spells enhancing his physical and mental make up such as psychic defence, superhuman strength and speed, practise of a large variety of offensive spells so that he is ready to use these when the time comes and some kind of detection spell so that he is aware of hostile movements (within a limited range).

Ok, this isn't a match where I'm going to give too much of a rebuttal. I know my plan, and it all comes down to Baron Mordo being totally unaware of who Cameron Hodge is and what he can do. That is a big strength to have in this battle.

Now, about the above statement, I've never seen Baron Mordo do many of the type of spells inwhich you discuss. I'm not sure if I've seen any kind of force field (although, spells to protect the body in some fashion); plus, I've never seen anyone like Dr. Strange or Baron Mordo make spells of superhuman strength and speed. Plus, I've never seen a magic caster perform spell after spell after spell to boost their power levels. To me, if you perform one spell it seems to end a previous spell. At least, that's the way it's been shown in the comics. It's about defense and attacks.

Baron Mordo's main problem, as I pointed out in my opening argument, is his lack of knowledge on who Cameron Hodge is. He won't know he can shapeshift to look like the local inhabitants or the surroundings. Because of this, he won't know who to watch out for. He'll probably be looking for the picture given to him. It won't be that difficult for Hodge to "pull the wool over his eyes," so to speak. Baron Mordo isn't a mutant; so, he will easily be assimilated by the Phalanx within Hodge.

Mordo through his magic, teleportation and astral projection abilities is much more able to adapt to the harsh conditions and any dangers the environment throws at them.

Actually, I'd argue that Cameron Hodge can handle this environment much better; since he's in a techno-organic state. Plus, I want to point out one important aspect: Hodge can "absorb organic and inorganic matter." It's very possible Baron Mordo won't be aware he's even walking on parts of the world that Hodge has absorbed.

Winner = Cameron Hodge

 

[Iceman]

REBUTTAL: BARON MORDO Vs CAMERON HODGE

Baron Mordo vs. Cameron Hodge:

Wow! This is a really good match-up, and I'm sure it's one that neither Ice or myself can predict the outcome for.

Yeah great match, particularly for Round 1. I think Ice is pretty good at making predictions so he may beg to differ on that front t:

Both characters are so good that nobody would really want to face them in the next round. For the record, this is Baron's first appearance in the contest, and Cameron Hodge fought through four rounds in Contest 1. Let the games begin!!!

I certainly would have preferred to avoid him in this round. Lets see if Mordo can better Hodge's season 1 record

First, let's look at each character's powers.

Baron Mordo:

Baron Mordo has vast magical abilities derived from his years of studying black magic and the mystic arts. He can separate his astral form from his body, allowing him to become intangible and invisible to most beings. He can project deadly force blasts using magic, can teleport, and can manipulate many forms of magical energy. He can also summon demons but they often don't do what he wants them to do.
Baron Mordo has great intelligence.


Cameron Hodge:

In his techno-organic state, Hodge can shapeshift, absorb organic and inorganic matter to rebuild or regenerate himself, and can access computers with the speed of thought.


Cameron Hodge has two advantages over Baron Mordo in this contest: One, Baron Mordo won't know who Cameron Hodge is; and, secondly, he also won't know anything about the location. As my memory serves me correctly, Baron Mordo, like Clea, lives in another dimension than our own. I've read Dr. Strange for quite some time throughout the years, and I can't remember the Baron living anywhere with access to any information, usually residing in another dimension than our own. Cameron Hodge, though, can access any computer; and, he'd be able to sift through tons of information through so many databases and find, at least, a bit of information about the Baron in his prep-time. There's even a chance something has been written about the Microverse and he'd be able to find something about Spartak (although, this might be a bit of a stretch).

I agree that Mordo will struggle to find useful info on Hodge while Hodge is likely to be able to find out who Mordo is and that he is a user of black magic. Finding out about Spartak doesn't seem at all likely though.

What really benefit's Cameron Hodge in this match-up is his abililty to shapeshift. Nothing was mentioned about inhabitants on the planet; so, it's very likely that he could make himself to look like one of the aliens running around. If he's in a crowd of aliens, that will be enough to confuse Baron Mordo, and Hodge could then simple use the transmode virus on him before Mordo is aware he's being attacked. What works well is that the Baron won't realize he's facing a being who has the transmode virus (and, he really wouldn't even be aware of the virus), and Cameron can take Baron down before he can save himself with a spell.

Mordo won't be expecting a virus, as you say, but we have established that he won't know what to expect. He could be facing Microbe, he could be facing Thor for all he knows. He will be on the defensive at the start and this mean he'll likely be intangible which should protect him from the virus. In addition he would be ready to teleport at the first sign of trouble and may use astral projection to protect himself at least until he can measure the level of threat against him. Don't forget how intelligent this guy is.

As I've shown, even without using his magic, Mordo has numerous natural defences, even without knowing what Hodge is capable of. Hodge on the other hand cannot predict exactly what Mordo will throw at him and he won't be able to cope against Mordo's high level attacks for long. He also cannot escape whenever he chooses (unlike Mordo).

I certainly don't want to downplay Hodge as I loved the Phalanx storylines but I think we are seeing a battle between a very useful character capable of surprising many of the big characters in this tournament and advancing further than expected, against one who has the potential to beat almost anybody on his own terms.

WINNER = BARON MORDO

 

[Phaedrus45]

Rebuttal: Baron Mordo vs. Cameron Hodge

Finding out about Spartak doesn't seem at all likely though.

The only thing I'd point out is the fact Hodge can access all computers, and if there is something out there about Spartak, it would be likely he can find it. I'm not saying he definitely can; but, I say it's a possibility.

I certainly don't want to downplay Hodge as I loved the Phalanx storylines but I think we are seeing a battle between a very useful character capable of surprising many of the big characters in this tournament and advancing further than expected, against one who has the potential to beat almost anybody on his own terms.

Both are definite threats. With Baron Mordo, just like with Strange last season, it's a question of what the voters want to believe in terms of magic powers. Can they perform unlimited spells, taking out anyone and everyone with prep-time? Or, do we believe they are beatable, because past encounters have shown that Baron Mordo isn't as powerful as a writer possibly envision them to be?

 

[Iceman]

REBUTTAL: BARON MORDO Vs CAMERON HODGE

Ok, this isn't a match where I'm going to give too much of a rebuttal. I know my plan, and it all comes down to Baron Mordo being totally unaware of who Cameron Hodge is and what he can do. That is a big strength to have in this battle.

I've accepted this point in one of my earlier posts.

Now, about the above statement, I've never seen Baron Mordo do many of the type of spells inwhich you discuss. I'm not sure if I've seen any kind of force field (although, spells to protect the body in some fashion); plus, I've never seen anyone like Dr. Strange or Baron Mordo make spells of superhuman strength and speed. Plus, I've never seen a magic caster perform spell after spell after spell to boost their power levels. To me, if you perform one spell it seems to end a previous spell. At least, that's the way it's been shown in the comics. It's about defense and attacks.

Mordo has an open ended power in terms of his ability with black magic and it becomes slightly difficult to debate for (and against) as we never know what will be accepted by the voters and what will be considered stretching the possibilities. Obviously, if he is shown performing only a limited number of spells within the comics, this does not mean that he is incapable of performing any others while at the same time it does not imply that his powers are limitless. If an experienced magic caster is introduced to the MU and performs a powerful spell in his first issue, it is assumed that he will also know others and anyone debating for the character is admittedly forced to speculate to an extent based on the power level of the first spell.

Also I won't completely accept that he can only use one spell at a time but I will leave it out there as a possibility and if it were the case, I would suggest that Mordo would be cautious (not knowing anything about his opponent) and use a forcefield or similar general defence (this kind of spell is certainly not on a higer level than the spells he has been shown to be capable of). The majority of other spells (including strength & speed) I listed are not actually particularly relevant to this battle and were examples of what he could choose to come up with, although if he were limited he would not consider them. Also the comics are never going to be able to show what someone like Mordo does when he has a full day of prep time dedicated to nothing but improving his chances in a battle that takes place the day after. It would be the most boring issue ever t:

Baron Mordo's main problem, as I pointed out in my opening argument, is his lack of knowledge on who Cameron Hodge is. He won't know he can shapeshift to look like the local inhabitants or the surroundings. Because of this, he won't know who to watch out for. He'll probably be looking for the picture given to him. It won't be that difficult for Hodge to "pull the wool over his eyes," so to speak. Baron Mordo isn't a mutant; so, he will easily be assimilated by the Phalanx within Hodge.

The Phalanx (admittedly a cool villain) was continually outwitted by individual mutants with very limited one dimensional powers (like Gambit at the time & Yukio) thinking on their feet. Mordo is a far greater strategist with a much larger range of offensive powers than either of those two. Although it continually adapted to threats it faced, it took a hell of a long time to get anywhere against relatively weak characters. Also the crucial point is that Hodge himself represents only a very small part of the Phalanx.

Actually, I'd argue that Cameron Hodge can handle this environment much better; since he's in a techno-organic state.

OK I'm willng to call it even. Intangibility, teleportation and astral projection (along with any spells he chooses) make the environment irrelevant to Mordo also.

Plus, I want to point out one important aspect: Hodge can "absorb organic and inorganic matter." It's very possible Baron Mordo won't be aware he's even walking on parts of the world that Hodge has absorbed.

Sorry to be a fool but I'm not clear on the point you're making here. Are you saying he will try to transmit the virus in this way or try and absorb Mordo?

Anyway I won't go through all of Mordo's possible routes to victory here as I have done so in my opening debate but it is a fact that Hodge will struggle to defend against many of them while depending on his very limited and unflexible potential routes to victory. In addition, Mordo has a variety of reserve strategies and escape routes allowing him to regroup and rethink tactics in case the battle takes an unexpected turn for the worse (previously discussed).

WINNER = BARON MORDO

 

[Iceman]

REBUTTAL: BARON MORDO Vs CAMERON HODGE

The only thing I'd point out is the fact Hodge can access all computers, and if there is something out there about Spartak, it would be likely he can find it. I'm not saying he definitely can; but, I say it's a possibility.

OK I'll leave it as a possibility

Both are definite threats. With Baron Mordo, just like with Strange last season, it's a question of what the voters want to believe in terms of magic powers. Can they perform unlimited spells, taking out anyone and everyone with prep-time? Or, do we believe they are beatable, because past encounters have shown that Baron Mordo isn't as powerful as a writer possibly envision them to be?

Agreed, the voters will have to decide on this, although I will also point out that the use of magic is only one of Mordo's listed powers.

Out of interest how did Dr Strange get on last year?

 

[Phaedrus45]

Rebuttal: Mordo vs. Hodge

The Phalanx (admittedly a cool villain) was continually outwitted by individual mutants with very limited one dimensional powers (like Gambit at the time & Yukio) thinking on their feet. Mordo is a far greater strategist with a much larger range of offensive powers than either of those two. Although it continually adapted to threats it faced, it took a hell of a long time to get anywhere against relatively weak characters. Also the crucial point is that Hodge himself represents only a very small part of the Phalanx.

I just want to point out on very, very important aspect that this part of the debate fails to point out: The Phalanx discovered that their powers do not work on mutants. That is why the "very one dimensional powers" of characters lilke Gambit and Yukio were effective on them. With Baron Mordo, he is not a mutant, and would thus be easily assimilated by The Phalanx.

 

[Iceman]

REBUTTAL: BARON MORDO Vs CAMERON HODGE

I just want to point out on very, very important aspect that this part of the debate fails to point out: The Phalanx discovered that their powers do not work on mutants. That is why the "very one dimensional powers" of characters lilke Gambit and Yukio were effective on them. With Baron Mordo, he is not a mutant, and would thus be easily assimilated by The Phalanx.

This particular wave of the Phalanx that Hodge was part of was designed only to attack mutants. It assimilated many humans but I can't remember any superheroes and particularly none on Mordo's level. This was not part of its aim or programming. It cannot be stated that it could have assimilated the most powerful non mutant MU characters as it never even tried.

Yes, mutants had an unexpected resistance to the virus but that doesn't explain why Yukio and Gambit fared so well against it in combat continually outwitting it (btw these are among my fave Madureira X-Men issues). It should have been able to beat them regardless. Yukio didn't even really do anything except jump around a lot.

And again, Hodge represents only a part of the Phalanx and on his own cannot do too much here.

WINNER = BARON MORDO

 

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: BARON MORDO Vs CAMERON HODGE

This particular wave of the Phalanx that Hodge was part of was designed only to attack mutants. It assimilated many humans but I can't remember any superheroes and particularly none on Mordo's level. This was not part of its aim or programming. It cannot be stated that it could have assimilated the most powerful non mutant MU characters as it never even tried.

Yes, mutants had an unexpected resistance to the virus but that doesn't explain why Yukio and Gambit fared so well against it in combat continually outwitting it (btw these are among my fave Madureira X-Men issues). It should have been able to beat them regardless. Yukio didn't even really do anything except jump around a lot.

And again, Hodge represents only a part of the Phalanx and on his own cannot do too much here.

WINNER = BARON MORDO

But, it stands to reason that 1) Cameron Hodge is an Uber-Phalanx, not just one of the lackeys that probably tried to attack Gambit and Yukio, and 2) the issue is about my plan of attack, which is to infect Baron Mordo, which is not a plan of attack that could have been used against Gambit and Yukio. Since mutants were brought up in the debate, it must also be acknowledged why attacking a human and a mutant are two different things.

 

[Iceman]

REBUTTAL: BARON MORDO Vs CAMERON HODGE

But, it stands to reason that 1) Cameron Hodge is an Uber-Phalanx, not just one of the lackeys that probably tried to attack Gambit and Yukio, and 2) the issue is about my plan of attack, which is to infect Baron Mordo, which is not a plan of attack that could have been used against Gambit and Yukio. Since mutants were brought up in the debate, it must also be acknowledged why attacking a human and a mutant are two different things.

The Phalanx is logical if nothing else. If it were that easy to infect the most powerful non mutant characters it would have done so in its quest to rid the world of mutants as each assimilation makes it more powerful. It could have swept through the cosmics or Asgardians or any select powerful group and it would then have little problem in defeating mutants at that boosted power level. This tactic is the obvious step rather than persevering with attacking mutants by conventional means (which it is obviously not very good at) as soon as they discovered that mutants were resistant. The fact that it didn't happen and wasn't even considered implies either that it was not possible or that Hodge, being one of the leaders of the Phalanx, is a worse strategist than me.

This turn in the debate obviously ignores any of Mordo's numerous offensive and defensive strategies discussed in depth earlier.

WINNER = BARON MORDO

 

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: BARON MORDO Vs CAMERON HODGE

The Phalanx is logical if nothing else. If it were that easy to infect the most powerful non mutant characters it would have done so in its quest to rid the world of mutants as each assimilation makes it more powerful.

Actually, let's be honest, here. The Phalanx might be logical; but, writers of comics are not. There is no way the writers of X-Men would have introduced non-mutant characters into this storyline; thus, even though we might realize taking over non-mutant superheroes, THEN defeating the mutants through their help, would have probably won them the battle wasn't going to be written. Nope, grudges run deep in the comic world, and this was one of them.

 

[Iceman]

Actually, let's be honest, here. The Phalanx might be logical; but, writers of comics are not. There is no way the writers of X-Men would have introduced non-mutant characters into this storyline; thus, even though we might realize taking over non-mutant superheroes, THEN defeating the mutants through their help, would have probably won them the battle wasn't going to be written. Nope, grudges run deep in the comic world, and this was one of them.

Haha t: very true

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!!!

 

[Phaedrus45]

*Belasco

*Cameron Hodge

*Firelord

*Wolverine

 

[kytrigger]

Baron Mordo-really tough to decide on this one as I kept going back and forth.
Namorita-Really tough too since the location puts her at a disadvantage, but her paralyzing touch plus strength could put Wolverine down.
Firelord
Belasco

 

[Midnight Ice]

Belasco
Cameron Hodge
Firelord
Wolverine

 

[Zoken]

Belasco
Namorita (Because Wolvie SUCKS)
Baron Mordo
Firelord

 

[Iceman]

Belasco
Wolverine - could have been a different result in a different location
Baron Mordo
Firelord

 

[JewishHobbit]

Wolverine
Firelord
Belasco (I really wanted to see Crystal's side of the story, as I think she may be able to pull it off, but without a debate, I'm still leaning toward Belasco)
Baron Mordo (I wanted to see Hodge win, who I love, but I just don't think he would and good debating on both sides kept it that way)

 

[wiegeabo]

Belasco
Firelord
Wolverine
Cameron Hodge (definitely a hard choice either way)

 

[hippy fascist]

Belasco (you debate you win)
Namorita (healing factor won't help against paralysis and freak weather cold easily mean rain)
Baron Mordo (well done I/P good skills!)
Firelord (you debate you win)

 

[Phaedrus45]

Results So Far:

Belasco currently beating Crystal 8-0
Baron Mordo currently beating Cameron Hodge 5-3
Firelord currently beating SpeedFreek 8-0
Wolverine currently beating Namorita 5-3

 

[Hellstormer]

Belasco
Firelord
Namorita
Cameron Hodge

 

[Harlekin]

Good debate concerning Mordo/Hodge. Dr. Strange made it into the top four last time around.

Belasco
Baron Mordo
Firelord
Wolverine

 

[DarkHellRider]

Belasco
Firelord
wolverine
Cameron Hodge