Contest of Marvels II Thread 2

[Phaedrus45]

Final Results:

Belasco defeats Black Tarantula 7-1
Scarlet Spider ties with Mr. Sinister 4-4
Morg defeats Firelord 7-1
Korath defeats Stryfe 7-1

 

[Phaedrus45]

BRACKET 3,

Match 1:

Armagedon - Exiles (WIEGEABO) bio

vs.

Spiral (WIEGEABO) bio



Match 2:

Wallflower - House of M (JEWISHHOBBIT) bio

vs.

Man-Wolf (WIEGEABO) bio

 

[Phaedrus45]

BRACKET 4,

Match 1:

Mr. Hyde (HARLEKIN) bio

vs.

Alex Powers (HARLEKIN) bio



Match 2:

Gamesmaster (JEWISHHOBBIT) bio

vs.

Super Skrull (PHAEDRUS45) bio

 

[Phaedrus45]

REMATCH:

Scarlet Spider (JEWISHHOBBIT) bio

vs.

Mr. Sinister (AHURA MAZDA) bio

 

[Phaedrus45]

LOCATION: Savage Land

The Savage Land is a hidden prehistoric land within the fictional Marvel Comics Universe. It is a tropical preserve hidden in Antarctica.

There are many types of races in the Savage Land and Pangea. Examples of Savage Land races include the bird people called Aerians, the Fall People who are friends of the X-Men, the monkey-tailed Tree People, the amphibious Tubanti fish-people of the inland Gorahn Sea, the Lizard Men of Vali-Kuri City, and the nomadic cat people of Pandori. Popular races in the Savage Land are the Man-Apes, the Lemurans, the Pterons (pterodactyl-like people), the human Sun People, the Swamp Men, and the Zebra People.

(The Savage Land is inhabited, as shown above; no super-powered individuals are included, though, including the likes of Sauron, Moon-Boy, or Devil Dinosaur.)

 

[Harlekin]

FINAL COMMENTS: Mr. Hyde vs Alex Power

I not only think Alex's versatility of powers would help him win this match, I think he'll serve me the best for the remainder of this competition.

WINNER=ALEX POWER

 

[Phaedrus45]

Super Skrull vs. Gamesmaster:

This is an interesting match up. I can see a case for either competetor to take this match; but, of course, my bias will be towards the Super Skrull. First, I'd like to point out an important factor about Skrulls:

The Skrulls are known for their ability to shapeshift, and are able to assume virtually any form, be it organic (e.g., cows[20]) or inorganic (e.g., lamp[21]). As a result, the Skrulls excel at spying and infiltration. Skrulls are also able to use their shapeshifting abilities to form weapons (eg. blades and clubs) with parts of their bodies, making them dangerous hand-to-hand combatants.

Of course, as we all know, Super Skrull's abilities are far beyond this. See below:

The Super-Skrull has a version of the Fantastic Four's superhuman abilities at the levels the team possessed when they began their careers. If the current Skrull ruler permits, a satellite can send an augmentation beam that ampliflies the Super-Skrull's abilities beyond the Fantastic Four's current levels. Kl'rt also possesses the Skrull's innate racial ability to shape-shift and the unique power of hypnosis. He is also an excellent hand-to-hand combatant and was extensively trained in warfare by the Skrull Empire. The Super-Skrull also has knowledge of and access to technology centuries ahead of conventional Earth science.

Finally:

Kl'rt's power levels, however, exceeded the originals - he was stronger than Ben Grimm; had superior flight and greater pyrokinetic ability than the Human Torch; exercised better control of invisibility and telekinesis than Susan Richards; and maintained an ability to stretch beyond that of Mr. Fantastic. The newly-named "Super-Skrull" also retained his innate Skrullian shapeshifting abilities and strong hypnotic skills.

Now, Gamesmasters powers:

The Gamesmaster is an omnipath; a superhuman telepath so powerful that he can hear the thoughts of every being on the planet. However, he cannot block the thoughts out, and thus his mind is constantly filled with six billion voices unless he is able to greatly concentrate on a distraction. The Gamesmaster also possesses the ability to manipulate the thoughts of others, and has suggested[citation needed] that he is able to manipulate the thoughts of the entire population of the Earth simultaneously, though he has yet to demonstrate this ability. He has previously shown capable of manipulating the thoughts of an entire town, as he did with Salem Center in New York.

Super Skrull is going to rely on two main powers with this match: Invisible Woman's and his own Skrull powers of shape shifting and hypnosis. The main thing to point out is that Gamesmaster cannot block out all the thoughts of everyone on the planet, and he'd have to be able to greatly concentrate on the subject at hand in order to manipulate them. Super Skrull would begin the match by becoming one of the natural species that roams the Savage Land. He wouldn't know much about Gamesmaster, if anything at all; thus, he wouldn't do anything until he could figure the guy out. (Plus, while being in this shape, he could render himself invisible to avoid further detection.) There is no indication that Gamesmaster can single out a section, especially since he isn't able to block out all the thoughts on the planet. I would assume the person would have to be known in order to take them over. Plus, Skrull physiology is different from human...and, it's Skrull physiology in the form of a Savage Land beast.

Once the Super Skrull sees Gamesmaster, he has a choice of either watching his actions, or directly using his hypnosis and doing to him before he could do to the Super Skrull. Once hypnotised, Super Skrull can easily take him out with a solid punch with a Thing fist. After all, Gamesmaster only has the one ability (albiet, a pretty big one).

Basically, the voter has to decide how powerful Gamesmaster really is. Sadly, we don't have a ton of information on him. There are a couple people in this contest able to withstand his powers, it would seem. But, my opponent would probably make the case each time that the second he steps onto a battlefield, he'll use his telepathic powers to automatically remove his opponent from battle. It's my contention that his bio shows he cannot remove thoughts from his head, there is no proof he'd be able to automatically pinpoint Super Skrull (or be able to find a Skrull who shapeshifts into an animal in the Savage Land who can also render himself invisible), and without detection, the Super Skrull would be able to surprise Gamesmaster with ease.

Winner = Super Skrull

 

[JewishHobbit]

Wallflower (House of M) Vs Man-Wolf (Stargod)

Okay, so the location does nothing for neither character I believe. I don't think either has ever been to the Savage Land so it's just a savage place with large animals and such. They can both figure it out.

Preptime also does nothing, as Wallflower was too small of a character for John to know... and this is even an alternate reality of Wallflower, so he'd be clueless on her. Likewise, John wouldn't be known by Wallflower. I don't know what Man-Wolf looks like as stargod, but if he is still a wolf (and my understanding is that he still is) then Wallflowr should be able to at least get an idea of what to expect, though not the full package. However, John wouldn't be able to tell Wallflower's powers in the slightest. She's a twisted girl in the House of M, though she looks sweat and innocent... so she's completely differant than how she'd first seem.

So when it comes to powers, I think it's obvious that Man-Wolf has more of a variety, and depending on how powerful his manipulation powers are, more powerful. However, I think Wallflower's powers trump his. He can't expect it and she can send it out, at times visuably, at times not. All he'd have to do is breath, and the bios don't say anything about him not breathing. It actually says he has enhanced senses... and breathing is one of our main senses, thus, he'd probably be more supseptable to Wallflower's pheremones than normal people. he'd smell it far off, and though the effect is pretty much instantaneous, there'd be more time for it to effect him. If she can set out tons of pheremones to effect a room full of people, one Man-Wolf shouldn't be a problem. We know she can suround an area with the stuff, so once Man-Wolf enters the area, bang, she's got him and he does whatever she wants. I assume she'd do the same thing that she did to Kid Omega and just make him commit suicide. She can make him do whatever she wants.. put an arrow into his brain, break his own neck, chew off his limbs one by, feed himself to a T-Rex... etc.

The only thing that I can think of that Man-Wolf can do to prevent this is shoot her from a distance with an arrow, but the bio says that John now keeps his intelligence when he turns into the Man-Wolf, so I don't see him just going and killing her on a whim. I see him getting close, and if he does, he's suddenly suicidal and dead.

As for the in habitants... John will have to dodge them or fight them. Wallflower will control them and have them do what she wants. She can kill them, or if she knows they aren't her foes she can control them and start sending them after John. I would assume that if she came accross a few, one or two would die, but she would then use the rest for her needs and send them after John, searching for him and attacking him.

John as Man-Wolf, and as Starlord, is a powerful foe... but as long as he has a sense of smell, there's nothing he can do. He can't get close to the phsycotic House of M Wallflower without commiting suicide, he'll have to fight the inhabitants, including dinos and other humanish people, he'll have to kill her outright without getting close, and without knowing her, her powers, or the level of threat she presents... I just don't see him doing it.

Winner - Wallflower (House of M)

 

[JewishHobbit]

Gamesmaster Vs Super Skrull

Okay, starting with the knowledge of each other... none will know anything. Well, SS won't know anything, and it can be argued that Gamesmaster does, as he is always aware of every mind on earth, and with Skrull having been here many times, it'd make sense that he'd know SS. This can't be proven, so I'll just let the idea rest in the voters minds and let them decide on that. Either way, he'll see a pic of a Skrull, and pretty much everyone knows what Skrulls can do. So at least he'll have a little idea of what he's facing.

Now, location doesn't do anything for Skrull either I believe, but again, if Gamesmaster can hear the thoughts of everyone on Earth, he'd have long heard the thoughts of those from the Savage Land and would know about it. Even if he doesn't read minds now during preptime (due to rules), he'd still know about it. He'll know what to expect.

Now, as for the battle itself... Gamesmaster is an Omnipath... not just a telepath. He hears all thoughts at once and does two things to keep these powerful powers in check. First off, he has cybernetic implants to help control his powers, then he focuses on a game or something specific to tone out other thoughts. This works perfectly for Gamesmaster in this game... as this tournament is a big game and Gamesmaster is "The Gamesmaster!" Thus, this match, and his foe, gives him something to focus on, so the overwhelming voices won't be such a big deal. He doesn't have to focus on Skrull himself to find him, he just has to focus on the Savage Land. He's not a physical fighter, and very seldom has anyone found him in the physical sense. He hides and sends out his big head or an astral form. In his pre-time he will mentally find the best place for him to hide his body through an astral form (the form he most often takes), so that he can go there as soon as he arrives. Then, as he has done since arriving, he will focus on everything in the Savage Land.

Now, I can't say for certain that he can read the mind of Super Skrull, but being that he could influence Shatterstar, a native of Mojoworld and even by the words of Beast, someone with differant make up... chances are that he can find and influence Super Skrull quite easily as well. Now if the thought comes to mind that a Skrull can alter his mind or form or whatever and that would make him harder to read, or impossible to read.... remember that Gamesmaster's read "alien" minds before (Specifically Shatterstar), but also that even if he couldn't quite make out the mind, he'd hear every mind and I'd think the "Odd mind" would stick out like a soar thumb. Finding Skrull shouldn't be a problem. Now, while he can control minds (as shown in an X-Men annual when he controled a city and most the X-Men, or some of the Upstarts in the Younghunt crossover), I don't know that he can control Skrull's mind, so I won't go that direction. Here's a new thought.

Remember, this place is inhabited with humans, dinosaurs, animals, etc. THIS site says that he claims to be able to link to animals as well as humans, so that adds a whole new slew of possibilities. He will be able to find Super Skrull, but then he can influence all the inhabitants, the Dinosaurs (T-Rexes, Velociraptors, Brontosaurs, Pterodactyls, etc), Etc to come after him. He can "tell" them where Skrull is and it's a whole army against the Super Skrull. Now, I will say that the Super Skrull will hold his own for a good long while, but I don't believe for a moment that he can single handedly exterminate the entire population of the Savage Land. He will get tired and will faulter. He can fly away, but he'll eventually have to land, and Gamesmaster will know where, and the fight commenses. Skrull can try to re-hyptnotise his foes, but it takes a moment and when you have such overwhelming wildlife coming at you, you don't have that type of time. Nonetheless, Gamesmaster doesn't have to fight this battle physically, he can do it mentally through all the inhabitants. I don't see Skrull killing them all, and he will eventually fall. If Gamesmaster is hidden well enough somewhere in all of the Savage Land, whether it be in a hole in the ground or wherever, he will have this match. Skrull won't have much time to search, and if he has to defend himself whiel searching, he'll eventually get taken down. He's attacking a T-Rex and an army of people attack. He attacks them and a Pterodactyl swoops down and scrapes him accross the back, then he gets a spear in the ribs as a pack of Velociraptors pounce him. As they tear into him, and he fights them off, a Stegosaur is swinging his tail through them and one of those bald bone head ramming things are bowling for Skrulls. He'll eventually get taken down and Gamesmaster will simply watch while laughing at this splendid game.

Winner - Gamesmaster

 

[JewishHobbit]

Oh, and before I get to this rebuttal, let's remember that this is Skrull Pre-Annihilation... a Skrull who was an embaressment to the Skrulls and shunned (as was Skrull's status at the beginning of his mini). He isn't the powerfully respected self-sacreficing Super Skrull goodness that we know him to be now. He's failed time and again, and even his own people shun him. Just wanted to paint the picture how it was at the time of this tourney.

Super Skrull vs. Gamesmaster:

I won't quote the quotes, but just to refer to them a bit, there is some conflicting information there. One of the quotes for Skrull states that his powers serpass those of the Fantastic Four's, but then another says that "IF the current Skrull ruler permits, a satellite can send an augmentation beam that ampliflies the Super-Skrull's abilities beyond the Fantastic Four's current levels." So is he more powerful or not? Is he only when amplified or not? I don't know the answer to this, just thought I'd bring it up.

Super Skrull is going to rely on two main powers with this match: Invisible Woman's and his own Skrull powers of shape shifting and hypnosis. The main thing to point out is that Gamesmaster cannot block out all the thoughts of everyone on the planet, and he'd have to be able to greatly concentrate on the subject at hand in order to manipulate them.

He's done if often in the past. Specifically I recall him manipulating Sonia Blaze during the Younghunt Crossover (X-Force and New Warriors) and a whole City and all the X-Men save Jean Grey in an X-Men Annual (don't recall which one, I want to say "'1997" but I could be wrong). The bio I mentioned in my write up says he uses implants to help control his powers and such games as this helps him focus as well (which is why he plays such games as the Upstarts, the Younghunt, and the mess with Shatterstar). This is his kind of game and it helps him focus so that focusing to find Super Skrull shouldn't be a problem. And while he hears everything thought on the planet, he's never been shown having problems with the other voices, he just weeds through them to focus on those he wants to focus on.

Super Skrull would begin the match by becoming one of the natural species that roams the Savage Land. He wouldn't know much about Gamesmaster, if anything at all; thus, he wouldn't do anything until he could figure the guy out. (Plus, while being in this shape, he could render himself invisible to avoid further detection.) There is no indication that Gamesmaster can single out a section, especially since he isn't able to block out all the thoughts on the planet. I would assume the person would have to be known in order to take them over. Plus, Skrull physiology is different from human...and, it's Skrull physiology in the form of a Savage Land beast.

He doesn't need to tune out the rest of the world, just focus on the Savage Land, which is what he's always done. He focused on Salem Center and controled the city during the X-Men Annual, so the Savage Land shouldn't be a problem either. He tunes out the other voices and focused on the Upstarts and pinpointed and had a conversation with the 6 or so of them, whiel allowing them all to gather mentally (none of them telepaths) into one astral meeting. His focusing on an area and the people in the area really shouldn't be a problem in the slightest.

As for Skrull being invisible, in the form of a beast, and having differant physiology... none are a problem. He can focus on and manipulate Shatterstar, who has a differant physiology (according) so the same should apply here. And he can read animals as well according to that bio so any of the Savage Land's critters should be findable. And even if he can't read in detail, as I said in my bio, he'd read something, whether it odd or not... and thus, he'd find his foe. The stealth thing that the Skrulls are best at isn't going to fly in this match.

Once the Super Skrull sees Gamesmaster, he has a choice of either watching his actions, or directly using his hypnosis and doing to him before he could do to the Super Skrull. Once hypnotised, Super Skrull can easily take him out with a solid punch with a Thing fist. After all, Gamesmaster only has the one ability (albiet, a pretty big one).

He'd have to find Gamesmaster first, and as far as I know, no one's ever found Gamesmaster. They've found his astral form, but never his true form. Leading to a NEW IDEA - Gamesmaster always sends out his astral forms to do his buisness. He can do this same thing out into the Savage Land and not only comunicate and mess with Skrull's mind, as he does with everyone, but also keep him away from where his true body is. Skrull wouldn't know that this isn't actually Gamesmaster, as he can make it look real (does often). He can easily just lead Skrull around, into dangers, etc. I doubt Skrull's going to find Gamesmaster.

Basically, the voter has to decide how powerful Gamesmaster really is. Sadly, we don't have a ton of information on him. There are a couple people in this contest able to withstand his powers, it would seem.

He's powerful enough to take over an entire city, including all the X-Men with the exception of Jean Grey. And only two have resisted him fully, Jean, a powerful telepath, and Husk, who morphed into a telepathy resistant Husk. Super Skrull is neither of these and has no resistance. He's well trained, but so were the X-Men... and the X-Men were even trained against telepathy specific... and still couldn't overcome it.

But, my opponent would probably make the case each time that the second he steps onto a battlefield, he'll use his telepathic powers to automatically remove his opponent from battle. It's my contention that his bio shows he cannot remove thoughts from his head,

I like to think outside of the box. No mind wipey, it's a mad rush!

there is no proof he'd be able to automatically pinpoint Super Skrull (or be able to find a Skrull who shapeshifts into an animal in the Savage Land who can also render himself invisible), and without detection, the Super Skrull would be able to surprise Gamesmaster with ease.

I provided proof and covered all this earlier

Winner - Gamesmaster

 

[JewishHobbit]

Scarlet Spider Vs Sinister

Okay, so the rematch doesn't start in Ben's corner, as Sinister is familiar with the location and knows what he's up against. There is something that Sinister still can't defend against, and that is Ben's spidey sense. He won't know anything about it yet, and thus, any attack or trickery he attempts will still alert Ben so he won't fall for it. Sinister's preptime will be more effective this time, but Ben will also know what he's getting into and can plan more accurately. And again, remember, Sinister has preptime and can plan Ben's demise... which is almost always an instant win for Sinister, but he's not going to be planning accurately due to Ben's Spidey sense, which Sinsiter CANNOT know about. He can plan all he wants and the Spidey Sense will alert Ben of his intentions, thus, they can and will fall through, and once again the preptime isn't that much of a threat. Also, Sinister's blasts and such are still just as easily dodgable, so no harm there. The Spidey Men are known for their stealth, so he can easily dodge the inhabitants of the lands and he can search out the Savage Land to get an idea of what he's doing and where he is. This match won't be won without an upclose confrontation, and so we're back to the same place we were in last round. What's the differance? Sinister wouldn't have been holding back last round, as he has no reason to... Ben would have. However, now he knows what kind of beating Sinister can take and he'll be trying even harder and fighting even more ruthlessly. He's also had 24 hours to plan this time, knowing exactly what and how Sinister is... and specifically, his malable make up.

Here's what I can see happening.... remember, Ben is a genious, as Peter is, and they are both underrated in that reguard. Ben remembers creating webbing and the shooters, and he himself created impact webbing and stingers. Dude's a science wiz, and so I can see him going to ol' Empire State University (posing as Peter) and getting access to their science lab. I can then see him creating a few capsules that he will store in his shooters that contain or somehow hold... I'm drawing a blank.... the liquid that if you dip anything into it it'll freeze instantly an can shatter.... you know what I'm talking about. Anyhow, he'll do his thing and when the fight comes they will be duking it out, then when he gets the chance he'll send a few of them off and when they hit Sinister he will become frozen instantly and rendered immoble. This won't kill him, and after the last encounter I think Ben will know this as well.

Sinister is intelligent, but so is Ben, and this match is a perfect example of how Ben can use science to pull out a win... even over a superior mind.

And a reminder....... SINISTER'S PREP-TIME PLANNING CAN BE OVERCOME BY BEN'S SPIDEY SENSE, WHICH SINISTER WILL NOT KNOW TO PLAN AND ACCOUNT FOR. Ben actually has the advantage here, as he knows what he's going into and can plan accordingly, while Sinister will THINK he knows what he's getting into and THINK'S he's planning accordingly, while leaving out a MAJOR factor that will end up being his downfall.

Winner - Scarlet Spider

 

[wiegeabo]

Spiral vs Armageddon

I know Armageddon is very powerful, but the lack of information about him is a hindrance. And I think Spiral has a better array of powers that will fair better in the last rounds.

But if anyone has a good argument for Armageddon, I'd love to hear it.

 

[wiegeabo]

Man Wolf vs Wallflower

Prep-time will do little for each character in finding out about their opponents. John probably won't learn anything about Wallflower, and Wallflower probably will learn little about Jameson.

Wallflower will get information about the Savage Land from the X-Files (no pun intended). But they won't really help her fight, just prepare her for what to experience. John won't need this information since his wolf form will give him all that he needs to survive and flourish in the jungles.

Jameson's biggest advantage is not his Stargod powers, but it will be those of his Man-Wolf senses. With his advanced sense of sight and hearing, he can see Wallflower from a distance.

If John decides to take the fight into close quarters, his heightened sense of smell will tip him off to something odd long before he gets too close. He'll be able to smell Wallflower's pheromones before they can really effect him. And, even if they do start to effect him, his feral side can keep him from being controlled or manipulated. His accelerated healing may also help remove or reduce any effects from the pheromones, allowing John to keep control.

Jameson's wolf powers provide him with a good defense, keeping him safe from being manipulated. But it's his Stargod powers that give him his offensive attacks. Not only can John's senses allow him to track Wallflower from a distance, but he can also use his telepathy to track her. Possibly even use it to effect her mind. And once John spots Wallflower in the distance, he can blast her with energy from a safe range (not enough to kill her since he's not that kind of guy anymore).

Wallflower has an effective power, but she's up against someone who can avoid her pheromones and strike from a safe distance.


Man-Wolf wins

 

[Ahura Mazda]

REMATCH:

Scarlet Spider (JEWISHHOBBIT) bio

vs.

Mr. Sinister (AHURA MAZDA) bio

Siniister's powers yet again:

Mr. Sinister is no b-rate villain. He is a very powerful superhuman being who is a genius. His powers are as follows:

Shape Shifting - Sinister has total control over his body's cellular structure, allowing him to peform limited shapeshiftng. He can assume the form of any one he wishes, and once reduced himself into a semi-liquid state.

Superhuman Strength - At times, he has demonstrated superhuman strength.

Resistance / Regeneration - He has frequently shown a remarkable resistance to injury and excellent regenerative abilities—he has survived having a large hole shot through his head, and apparently survived having the flesh blasted off his bones at the climax of the Inferno story arc.

Telepath - He has also demonstrated reasonably strong telepathic powers in the past, including the ability to mentally paralyze a foe he’s touching, erasing the memories of Jean Grey at the end of the Inferno arc, and being able to withstand a psychic assault from Psylocke, a high-level telepath.

Telekinetic - He has also exhibited some minor telekinetic abilities, such as mentally moving objects and firing blasts of concussive force from his hands or from the diamond-shaped scarlet mark on his forehead. He was believed to possess the power of teleportation, but it was revealed this was not an innate ability, but a function of his tesseract headquarters, which was far bigger on the inside than on the outside (like the TARDIS from the television series Doctor Who).

Genius - Sinister is a genius and a geneticist of the highest order, able to predict genetic mutations and splice DNA. (Originally, he was genetically altered by Apocalypse, since then, it is quite probable that his other abilities are the result of self-experimentation—his shapeshiftng power is due to a procedure he performed on himself with help from a time-traveling Gambit.) He possesses a good deal of knowledge in psychology, and is a skilled manipulator.

He will also be very equipped.

A rematch will be a distinct advantage to Sinister. He will know who the Scarlet Spider is, what his powers are and will be able to prepare for it. One he can create a liquid or ray that dissolves Ben's web fluid. Second he will know about the Spideer Sense because first off he will have noticed if Ben had evaded him pre-cognitavely and second he knows the Scarlet Spider is a knock off spiderman and given his resources he can research to his satisfaction all of the Scarlet's powers. Let us also not forget that Sinister through his ties with Apocolypse has access to Celestial technology and has the knowledge of how to use it to his advange.

Next, the terrain is one Sinister knows extremely well whereas ben does not have a clue as to where he will be. Also swinging in trees is not the same as swinging inbetween buildings. Also, there are natives and asa shapeshifter Sinister can appear as one or even take the place of the ruler of the Savage Land and make the natives his allies who willl then all attack Ben.

In addition, there is also the likelyhood that Sinister will telepathically take over Ben's mind.

This rematch means the end of Ben.

Winner - Mr. Sinister

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Scarlet Spider Vs Sinister - Rebuttal

Okay, so the rematch doesn't start in Ben's corner, as Sinister is familiar with the location and knows what he's up against. There is something that Sinister still can't defend against, and that is Ben's spidey sense. He won't know anything about it yet, and thus, any attack or trickery he attempts will still alert Ben so he won't fall for it. Sinister's preptime will be more effective this time, but Ben will also know what he's getting into and can plan more accurately. And again, remember, Sinister has preptime and can plan Ben's demise... which is almost always an instant win for Sinister, but he's not going to be planning accurately due to Ben's Spidey sense, which Sinsiter CANNOT know about. He can plan all he wants and the Spidey Sense will alert Ben of his intentions, thus, they can and will fall through, and once again the preptime isn't that much of a threat. Also, Sinister's blasts and such are still just as easily dodgable, so no harm there. The Spidey Men are known for their stealth, so he can easily dodge the inhabitants of the lands and he can search out the Savage Land to get an idea of what he's doing and where he is. This match won't be won without an upclose confrontation, and so we're back to the same place we were in last round. What's the differance? Sinister wouldn't have been holding back last round, as he has no reason to... Ben would have. However, now he knows what kind of beating Sinister can take and he'll be trying even harder and fighting even more ruthlessly. He's also had 24 hours to plan this time, knowing exactly what and how Sinister is... and specifically, his malable make up.

I do not understand how Sinister would not know about Ben's powers including his spidey sense. Sinister is th type to have studied every aspect of his first battle and will notice if Ben evaded him pre-cognitively. Plus Spiderman is very well known and his powers will be in some databases. Sinister using his resources will have access to them. It is also likely that he will have taken a sample of Ben's genetic material in the first battle and as such, will know everything about him. Maybe even a way to cause the clone to break down.

Here's what I can see happening.... remember, Ben is a genious, as Peter is, and they are both underrated in that reguard. Ben remembers creating webbing and the shooters, and he himself created impact webbing and stingers. Dude's a science wiz, and so I can see him going to ol' Empire State University (posing as Peter) and getting access to their science lab. I can then see him creating a few capsules that he will store in his shooters that contain or somehow hold... I'm drawing a blank.... the liquid that if you dip anything into it it'll freeze instantly an can shatter.... you know what I'm talking about. Anyhow, he'll do his thing and when the fight comes they will be duking it out, then when he gets the chance he'll send a few of them off and when they hit Sinister he will become frozen instantly and rendered immoble. This won't kill him, and after the last encounter I think Ben will know this as well.

Sinsiter will not be duking it out with Ben. If he approaches Ben he willl telepathically take control over him. His powers are that strong. And Sinsiter will ahve his own apparatus plus he probably has a base of operations in the savage lands and as such will use that as well.

Sinister is intelligent, but so is Ben, and this match is a perfect example of how Ben can use science to pull out a win... even over a superior mind.

And a reminder....... SINISTER'S PREP-TIME PLANNING CAN BE OVERCOME BY BEN'S SPIDEY SENSE, WHICH SINISTER WILL NOT KNOW TO PLAN AND ACCOUNT FOR. Ben actually has the advantage here, as he knows what he's going into and can plan accordingly, while Sinister will THINK he knows what he's getting into and THINK'S he's planning accordingly, while leaving out a MAJOR factor that will end up being his downfall.

This is one thing I absolutely do not agree with him. How can you state that Sinsiter will not know about Ben's spidey sense given they already had a fight in which the sense was made evident as it had to be used for him to survive the first battle. Plus the spidey sense is not all powerful. It has been tricked before and in some battles it seems to do little good. And your whole argument is based on Sinister not knowing that Ben has Spider Sense and that this Sense will protect Ben from everything Sinister can do to him.

Lest us not forget that Ben is a clone and Sinister is a master of genetics. At the end of the day Sinister could even clone a Benm for himself and will bring his clone into battle and sit back in his base and watch while both clones battle it out and he will then come up to pick up the peices. Or he could devide a way to break down Ben's cellular structure. Sinsiter really has all the cards in this battle and will not lose to the clone of spiderman.

Winner - Mr. Sinister

 

[JewishHobbit]

Hitting the main key points... Note: While I defend against all the following points, in the process of researching these rebuttals I found some interesting information that may change the course of the match... so be sure to read the stuff toward the bottom of this post

Man Wolf vs Wallflower

Jameson's biggest advantage is not his Stargod powers, but it will be those of his Man-Wolf senses. With his advanced sense of sight and hearing, he can see Wallflower from a distance.

This is possible, but he'll have to do it through the thick trees and do it without being found by the natives and animals and such as well. It isn't necessarilly as easy as it sounds. Definately possible, but it will take some work to find her. This is the Savage Land afterall, it's quite a large place.

If John decides to take the fight into close quarters, his heightened sense of smell will tip him off to something odd long before he gets too close. He'll be able to smell Wallflower's pheromones before they can really effect him. And, even if they do start to effect him, his feral side can keep him from being controlled or manipulated. His accelerated healing may also help remove or reduce any effects from the pheromones, allowing John to keep control.

First off, there's never been any evidense or proof that her pheremones give off scent (that I'm aware of anyhow). So the possibility that Man-Wolf would smell them is just assumption. Other than that there's also the fact that as soon as the Man-Wolf gets them in his nostrals, boom, he's taken. When Wallflower killed Kid-Omega it was instant. Her pheremones got him and he fell over. It took barely a panel. Same when she effected the New Mutants and the Hellions. None of them had the time to off her before she could effect them, they were consumed and killing each other, and they even knew she was a threat to begin with. If Man-Wolf is close enough to catch the scent, then he's already gone. And the Stargod Man-Wolf (according to the bio) is in control and not feral. If he gets a wiff of the pheremones, then she's got control of him and he won't be able to decide to go feral. With the exception of Mercury, whose powers make her immune to the pheremones, no one has EVER resisted or hestiated or even been able to attempt to fight Laurie's pheremones... not the inexperienced 616 Laurie, and definately not the House of M Laurie. If no one has EVER been able to fight off or fight against her influence... then why should Man-Wolf? He is powerful, but he's got nothing to defend against the pheremones, and since the effects are instantaneous, as soon as he catches the scent he's so suicidal that he won't even think about trying to let his feral self go, or defend himself... he'll do whatever the heck she wants him to and he'll do it immediately without fight. That's how it's been every time, there's nothing that shows me that this time will be any differant. Man-Wolf simply can't defend against it or overcome it. And, with his not knowing her powers, there's no reason that he'd attack from a distance aimlessly. He'd be more likely to get in close to examine his foe, and the phereomones will take him and he'll kill himself. Boom, the end.

Jameson's wolf powers provide him with a good defense, keeping him safe from being manipulated.

Correction.... they do nothing to defend him from her powers. Nothing in the slightest.

But it's his Stargod powers that give him his offensive attacks. Not only can John's senses allow him to track Wallflower from a distance, but he can also use his telepathy to track her. Possibly even use it to effect her mind. And once John spots Wallflower in the distance, he can blast her with energy from a safe range (not enough to kill her since he's not that kind of guy anymore).

IMPORTANT FIND: I BELIEVE

Well, being that Wiki mentioned nothing about Stargod's telepathy, I went looking elsewhere for a better bio and came accross some interesting information I think. According to THIS bio, it explains the situation a bit better and it looks like John could only gain the full powers of Stargod in Other Realm... not on Earth. In fact, both times he had the Stargod powers, when he came back to Earth, he not only lost them, but forgot he had them. So being that he's on Earth, and though the Stargod powers are allowed, the situation and scenerio actually doesn't allow them. They dont' work on Earth in the comics, they don't work on Earth now. So he would lose not only the telepathy, but the rest of hte powerful Stargod powers. And he is basically just the feral Man-Wolf.

This means that he can still see Wallflower from a distance, and smell her from a distance, etc. Thing is, he has no long range attacks... so he HAS to come close to attack. His feral mind won't allow him to rationally think out anything than "Attack!" and so he won't do anything other than charge. Now, as stated earlier, his feral mind could be debated as to being immune to the phermones, but in all honesty, I believe it just makes him more subseptable to them. He's feral, and more prone to being pursuaded by his own animalistic emotions. The pheremones will go to work when he smells them, and when his animalistic self decides to kill himself, he will do so. As I said before, no one has EVER been able to even fight the pheremones' effects, and there's nothing about Man-Wolf that would make him the exception. If her powers were the type that could be fought (such as telepathy attacks) then his feral mind could potentially overcome the urge to do what the pheremones say, but her powers have never been able to be fought against, and so I don't see his feral mind doing a thing to help him.

So now it seems that a tough match for Laurie just got a bit easier and Man-Wolf just got dumber. And before it is said that I'm trying to bend a rule by saying Stargod isn't allowed.... I am not saying in the slightest that Stargod isn't allowed. If we were in Other Realm, he'd be allowed. If we were in another world or demention other than Earth, it can be debated that he can be Stargod (since the second place he was Stargod was in another demention somewhere). It's just specifically stated in comic book continuity that while on Earth, Jameson only gets half the Stargod influence, and that's the typical Man-Wolf part.... making him simply Man-Wolf. No rules are broken or bent. It's a location thing, and it plays against the Man-Wolf. You are more than allowed to debate if you wish.

Winner - Wallflower (House of M)


Edit: Just wanted to say that I'm blind as a bat and that Wiki does talk about the telepathy and his not using his stargod powers on Earth.... I just missed it. Oh well.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Scarlet Spider Vs Sinister - Rebuttal



I do not understand how Sinister would not know about Ben's powers including his spidey sense. Sinister is th type to have studied every aspect of his first battle and will notice if Ben evaded him pre-cognitively. Plus Spiderman is very well known and his powers will be in some databases. Sinister using his resources will have access to them. It is also likely that he will have taken a sample of Ben's genetic material in the first battle and as such, will know everything about him. Maybe even a way to cause the clone to break down.

Sinister will notice that Ben was agile enough to dodge his attacks (as many have before that did not have Spidey sense, such as Longshot I believe, and Gambit). There is no reason, in my mind, for Sinister to suddenly, through one fight, realize that Ben has a Spidey sense. Even if by some ungodly chance he does, he won't know HOW Ben senses the attacks coming. He could just be lucky, he could have a secret power that allows him to feel energy waves and move out of their way, he could have some type of mental manipulation powers that allow him to make Sinister fire where he want's.... etc. There's no way Sinister can suddenly just assume and say... "HEY! He has Spidey Sense!". And while Spiderman is well known, his Spidey Sense isn't. That is something that very few people know about, even after all these years. Heck, the only people I can think of who know about it are Venom and a few people from the Clone Saga, none of which Sinister has ever had any interest in researching. If an intelligent man like Doc Ock can fight Spidey time and time again for YEARS and never catch on that he has a Spidey Sense... then Sinister isn't going to figure it out after only one fight. Also, Sinister has almost always only been concerned with Mutants, not others like Spidey and such. I would be very surprised if he has anything on Peter. The clone decay thing could be a neat idea, but you have to remember that Ben is the perfect clone. He doesn't have it in him to decay like the other clones... that was what made him perfect. His decay after his death was a very large goof up on behalf of the writers and the editers and is the main reason why people hope that Ben some day returns, as he COULDN"T deteriorate like that.... it isn't in his make up.

Sinsiter will not be duking it out with Ben. If he approaches Ben he willl telepathically take control over him. His powers are that strong. And Sinsiter will ahve his own apparatus plus he probably has a base of operations in the savage lands and as such will use that as well.

His telepathic powers aren't that strong... never have been. He could only truly effect the minds of telepaths that he's had time to prepare against. If anything, it's more like he is a counter telepath. X-Man, Madelyne, and Jean are the only people that I can think of that he truly effected mentally, and all three are people that were not only telepaths, but peopel he had years of experience molding or effecting... not just 1 day. He doesn't know Ben's brain, and he doesn't seem to have the ability to mess with it at all. The base of operations is a possibility, but Ben can overcome that.

This is one thing I absolutely do not agree with him. How can you state that Sinsiter will not know about Ben's spidey sense given they already had a fight in which the sense was made evident as it had to be used for him to survive the first battle. Plus the spidey sense is not all powerful. It has been tricked before and in some battles it seems to do little good. And your whole argument is based on Sinister not knowing that Ben has Spider Sense and that this Sense will protect Ben from everything Sinister can do to him.

Already reasoned why above. Sinister is a genious, but he isn't God, and if hundreds of foes prior to him (some just as intelligent) can't tell that he has spidey sense, neither will Sinister. And if by some chance he does figure it out, he'll also have to take the time to figure out where the precog powers are coming from, how they work, how to counter them, create a method to counter them, and then find some way to test it (and being that no other person can be involved, he may have to go in blind, chancing on his little 'spidey sense damper' not even working, as he'd have to guess on how to defend against it. I honestly don't see HOW SINISTER can possibly know about the Spidey Sense. It's not like the jagged lines are visible or anything

Lest us not forget that Ben is a clone and Sinister is a master of genetics. At the end of the day Sinister could even clone a Benm for himself and will bring his clone into battle and sit back in his base and watch while both clones battle it out and he will then come up to pick up the peices. Or he could devide a way to break down Ben's cellular structure. Sinsiter really has all the cards in this battle and will not lose to the clone of spiderman.

Sinister can't clone Ben because he isn't allowed to bring another person into battle with him, and another Ben clone would be another person...so that nixxes that idea right there. And as mentioned earlier, Ben doesn't have the make up to deteriorate... that was a huge writer's err, as it had been proven in the comics previous that he can't deteriorate. That's how Jackal knew he was the perfect clone, because he can't deteriorate. That's what he was aiming for with Gwen clones, and why Kaine was sent away as a failure.... they all had the make up to deteriorate. Ben doesn't.... he was perfect. The writers deteriorated him with no explanation on how just to show that he was dead and the clone saga over. It broke every rule of Ben being the perfect clone and the whole purpose of his creation. (it's been widely believed that the real Ben was switched with a clone and it was the clone that died and Ben is elsewhere, as Norman just messes with Peter's head. It's the only possible explanation as to how Ben suddenly deteriorated). It's really up to the voters in regards to the deteriorating idea, to go with comic continuity or with bad writer... that up to them. It's understandable either way.


And even more important than that... my scientific freezing of Sinister is way cooler than your lame deteriation idea. Nya Nya

Winner - Scarlet Spider

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Sinister will notice that Ben was agile enough to dodge his attacks (as many have before that did not have Spidey sense, such as Longshot I believe, and Gambit). There is no reason, in my mind, for Sinister to suddenly, through one fight, realize that Ben has a Spidey sense. Even if by some ungodly chance he does, he won't know HOW Ben senses the attacks coming. He could just be lucky, he could have a secret power that allows him to feel energy waves and move out of their way, he could have some type of mental manipulation powers that allow him to make Sinister fire where he want's.... etc. There's no way Sinister can suddenly just assume and say... "HEY! He has Spidey Sense!". And while Spiderman is well known, his Spidey Sense isn't. That is something that very few people know about, even after all these years. Heck, the only people I can think of who know about it are Venom and a few people from the Clone Saga, none of which Sinister has ever had any interest in researching. If an intelligent man like Doc Ock can fight Spidey time and time again for YEARS and never catch on that he has a Spidey Sense... then Sinister isn't going to figure it out after only one fight. Also, Sinister has almost always only been concerned with Mutants, not others like Spidey and such. I would be very surprised if he has anything on Peter. The clone decay thing could be a neat idea, but you have to remember that Ben is the perfect clone. He doesn't have it in him to decay like the other clones... that was what made him perfect. His decay after his death was a very large goof up on behalf of the writers and the editers and is the main reason why people hope that Ben some day returns, as he COULDN"T deteriorate like that.... it isn't in his make up.

It was canon and he did deteriorate and therefore it is possible for him to do so. I am not saying he will if no outside agent comes to cause him to do so. But I am saying that he can figure out one to cause the deterioration. Plus this does not have to be immediate.

His telepathic powers aren't that strong... never have been. He could only truly effect the minds of telepaths that he's had time to prepare against. If anything, it's more like he is a counter telepath. X-Man, Madelyne, and Jean are the only people that I can think of that he truly effected mentally, and all three are people that were not only telepaths, but peopel he had years of experience molding or effecting... not just 1 day. He doesn't know Ben's brain, and he doesn't seem to have the ability to mess with it at all. The base of operations is a possibility, but Ben can overcome that.

You do not know this for fact. What you do know is that he was able to take over the mind of several strong telepaths including Jean Grey. Therefore, his telepathic powers could simply be stronger then Jean's. Ben would obviously be no challenge.

Already reasoned why above. Sinister is a genious, but he isn't God, and if hundreds of foes prior to him (some just as intelligent) can't tell that he has spidey sense, neither will Sinister. And if by some chance he does figure it out, he'll also have to take the time to figure out where the precog powers are coming from, how they work, how to counter them, create a method to counter them, and then find some way to test it (and being that no other person can be involved, he may have to go in blind, chancing on his little 'spidey sense damper' not even working, as he'd have to guess on how to defend against it. I honestly don't see HOW SINISTER can possibly know about the Spidey Sense. It's not like the jagged lines are visible or anything

Sinister is one known for his planning and he would be able to tell if somebody is moving away from a blow before the blow came. He would know therefore that a single blow will never take Ben by surprise and that therfore he will plan the battle like a chess player cornering Ben until ther is no possible escape.

Let us not forget, Sinister has resources in the savage land and he can appear as Ka-zar there. Ben will be fighting on many fronts against someone who is very versatile.

You know I was thinking considering who Sinister is, he could release a virus in the atmosphere that takes out all non-mutants. Sinsiter really has many options here and nothing from which ben has a hope of surviving.

Sinister can't clone Ben because he isn't allowed to bring another person into battle with him, and another Ben clone would be another person...so that nixxes that idea right there. And as mentioned earlier, Ben doesn't have the make up to deteriorate... that was a huge writer's err, as it had been proven in the comics previous that he can't deteriorate. That's how Jackal knew he was the perfect clone, because he can't deteriorate. That's what he was aiming for with Gwen clones, and why Kaine was sent away as a failure.... they all had the make up to deteriorate. Ben doesn't.... he was perfect. The writers deteriorated him with no explanation on how just to show that he was dead and the clone saga over. It broke every rule of Ben being the perfect clone and the whole purpose of his creation. (it's been widely believed that the real Ben was switched with a clone and it was the clone that died and Ben is elsewhere, as Norman just messes with Peter's head. It's the only possible explanation as to how Ben suddenly deteriorated). It's really up to the voters in regards to the deteriorating idea, to go with comic continuity or with bad writer... that up to them. It's understandable either way.

Regarding the first point, I did not realise the clone would be a person , but if those are the rules...

The deterioration of Ben becomes possible given it happenned in his death and that Sinister is one of the greatest masters of genetics in the marvel world and has great experience in making clones. he could probably figure out a way to make ben do so. Even if, he could not he has allot of other resources up his sleeve to take out Ben whereas the clone has only one weak possibility.

And even more important than that... my scientific freezing of Sinister is way cooler than your lame deteriation idea. Nya Nya

Genetics is much more cooler then liquid nitrogen. YOur plan is somewhat flawed however. besides the fact that Sinister should at least pick up telepathically what Ben is planning, liquid nitrogen is less effective in places of great heat like the savage land. ka-zar would not be running around in a loin cloth in a temperate atmosphere .

Winner - Mr. Sinister

 

[JewishHobbit]

It was canon and he did deteriorate and therefore it is possible for him to do so. I am not saying he will if no outside agent comes to cause him to do so. But I am saying that he can figure out one to cause the deterioration. Plus this does not have to be immediate.

It's canon, but impossibly so. Anyone who stuck with the clone saga until it's end gave a big ol' "What?!" at the end because it was completely against everything the character was. Nonetheless, if the voters want to go with the deteriorating idea, have at it. But that also has to mean that Sinister gets DNA from Ben... who wears a full body suit. Not saying it's impossible, but it would be a challenge. Peter gets beat to tar often, showing skin, but Ben only had it happen once that I can think of in over two years of his character being in the spotlight. Sinister will have a challenge hitting him, let alone getting DNA from him (spidey sense in first round, definate surprise lest we forget).

You do not know this for fact. What you do know is that he was able to take over the mind of several strong telepaths including Jean Grey. Therefore, his telepathic powers could simply be stronger then Jean's. Ben would obviously be no challenge.

Show me ONE situation where he has used his telepathy in any other regard. That's how this works... proof. I've provided proof for my claims... now for the reversal. Show me situations where he's used his telepathy on people he hasn't studied, created, or in some way knew their brain previous to the match. Otherwise I think the facts lie closer to my side of the argument. My opinion, Sinister can't touch Ben's mind.

Sinister is one known for his planning and he would be able to tell if somebody is moving away from a blow before the blow came. He would know therefore that a single blow will never take Ben by surprise and that therfore he will plan the battle like a chess player cornering Ben until ther is no possible escape.

While I like the Chess Player idea and can see Sinister doing it, or attempting to in round two, there will be new ingredients that he couldn't plan for, such as the freezing pellets I mentioned in my write up. He may note the extraordinary dodging skills after researching the first match, but he wouldn't know to expect his intelligence, as Ben is very intelligent, scientific, and quite a chess type of character himself. He'll see what's going on and know how to work his way out of it by surprising Sinister and freezing him whole.

Let us not forget, Sinister has resources in the savage land and he can appear as Ka-zar there. Ben will be fighting on many fronts against someone who is very versatile.

Sinister can shape change, but I don't think he has EVER shape changed into a specific person that was not of his creation. He's never been shown to have that ability.

You know I was thinking considering who Sinister is, he could release a virus in the atmosphere that takes out all non-mutants. Sinsiter really has many options here and nothing from which ben has a hope of surviving.

Sure Ben has hope. If he had no hope then I wouldn't be trying. And while I believe Sinister could release a virus to kill all non-mutants.... that would kill Sinister too... who isn't a mutant if memory serves And besides that, that just seems a bit overkill for the match, a bit too reaching.

The deterioration of Ben becomes possible given it happenned in his death and that Sinister is one of the greatest masters of genetics in the marvel world and has great experience in making clones. he could probably figure out a way to make ben do so. Even if, he could not he has allot of other resources up his sleeve to take out Ben whereas the clone has only one weak possibility.

Again, Sinister would have had to get ahold of Ben's DNA in their first battle to get to know his genetics, and with Ben's SPidey Sense, it's reaching. And Ben's "weak possibility" is actually very Ben/Peter like and is actually a simple, yet, VERY effective strategy that I think is far more likely.

Genetics is much more cooler then liquid nitrogen. YOur plan is somewhat flawed however. besides the fact that Sinister should at least pick up telepathically what Ben is planning, liquid nitrogen is less effective in places of great heat like the savage land. ka-zar would not be running around in a loin cloth in a temperate atmosphere .

Winner - Mr. Sinister

Well, at least Ben has cool hair

 

[Ahura Mazda]

It's canon, but impossibly so. Anyone who stuck with the clone saga until it's end gave a big ol' "What?!" at the end because it was completely against everything the character was. Nonetheless, if the voters want to go with the deteriorating idea, have at it. But that also has to mean that Sinister gets DNA from Ben... who wears a full body suit. Not saying it's impossible, but it would be a challenge. Peter gets beat to tar often, showing skin, but Ben only had it happen once that I can think of in over two years of his character being in the spotlight. Sinister will have a challenge hitting him, let alone getting DNA from him (spidey sense in first round, definate surprise lest we forget).

They already fought and it was quite probable that some DNA sample was obtainned in that original battle. Therefore he can anlyse it and use it to come up with some degrading agent.

Show me ONE situation where he has used his telepathy in any other regard. That's how this works... proof. I've provided proof for my claims... now for the reversal. Show me situations where he's used his telepathy on people he hasn't studied, created, or in some way knew their brain previous to the match. Otherwise I think the facts lie closer to my side of the argument. My opinion, Sinister can't touch Ben's mind.

I have seen him affect Cyclop's judgement at one point and he is not listed as telepathy because he can control just those he created. Plus he now knows ben and has the opportunity to study who he is based on genes he may have obtainned and his behaviour in the first battle.

While I like the Chess Player idea and can see Sinister doing it, or attempting to in round two, there will be new ingredients that he couldn't plan for, such as the freezing pellets I mentioned in my write up. He may note the extraordinary dodging skills after researching the first match, but he wouldn't know to expect his intelligence, as Ben is very intelligent, scientific, and quite a chess type of character himself. He'll see what's going on and know how to work his way out of it by surprising Sinister and freezing him whole.

Yes I remember the freezing pellets and I responded to them earlier. One, they will not work very well in the heat of the savage lands and two, there is no uarantee they will connect as Sinister will know at the very leats what Ben is planning before he does it telepathically. Last, He is telekinetic and any pellets coming his way will be blocked and thrown back at Ben.

Sinister can shape change, but I don't think he has EVER shape changed into a specific person that was not of his creation. He's never been shown to have that ability.

Shape Shifting - Sinister has total control over his body's cellular structure, allowing him to peform limited shapeshiftng. He can assume the form of any one he wishes, and once reduced himself into a semi-liquid state.

And you are stating he has not changed into other people but lest us not forget he never needed to.

Sure Ben has hope. If he had no hope then I wouldn't be trying. And while I believe Sinister could release a virus to kill all non-mutants.... that would kill Sinister too... who isn't a mutant if memory serves And besides that, that just seems a bit overkill for the match, a bit too reaching.

This may be crazy of me but I will assume Sinister would have an antidote for himself and therefore be immune to the virus.

Again, Sinister would have had to get ahold of Ben's DNA in their first battle to get to know his genetics, and with Ben's SPidey Sense, it's reaching. And Ben's "weak possibility" is actually very Ben/Peter like and is actually a simple, yet, VERY effective strategy that I think is far more likely.

Peter is often in battles where he ends up being hit and struck by humans without superspeed so therefore Ben is likely to have left some genetic sample for Sinister to use. This could just be some skin which has rubbed off when he attempted to hit Sinister in the first battle. Simply put humans leave genetic samples everywhere they pass and as such it is highly improbable that Ben went through the first batttle without leaving any genetic trace of himself.

Well, at least Ben has cool hair

Well he should try hair salon modelling then

Winner - Mr. Sinister

 

[Phaedrus45]

Gamesmaster Vs Super Skrull

Okay, starting with the knowledge of each other... none will know anything. Well, SS won't know anything, and it can be argued that Gamesmaster does, as he is always aware of every mind on earth, and with Skrull having been here many times, it'd make sense that he'd know SS. This can't be proven, so I'll just let the idea rest in the voters minds and let them decide on that. Either way, he'll see a pic of a Skrull, and pretty much everyone knows what Skrulls can do. So at least he'll have a little idea of what he's facing.

Yes, he will have an idea of what Skrulls can do. But, there is nothing to indicate Gamesmaster is a genius who can discern what type of ruse a Skrull can use in hiding from something else. Skrull physiology is vastly different from humans, and since Skrulls even have hypnosis, it shows they that talent might influence Gamesmaster's abilities on them.

Now, location doesn't do anything for Skrull either I believe, but again, if Gamesmaster can hear the thoughts of everyone on Earth, he'd have long heard the thoughts of those from the Savage Land and would know about it. Even if he doesn't read minds now during preptime (due to rules), he'd still know about it. He'll know what to expect.

I'm ok saying Gamesmaster can use Prep Time to understand the Savage Land. But, the terrain he is learning from will be different when he arrives. (To remind the voters, the contestants not only get transported to these locations, but they get transported to a certain time, too. This ensures no planting of devices. It would do a character no good planting explosives when the time can be a month or a year ago in time.)

Now, as for the battle itself... Gamesmaster is an Omnipath... not just a telepath. He hears all thoughts at once and does two things to keep these powerful powers in check. First off, he has cybernetic implants to help control his powers, then he focuses on a game or something specific to tone out other thoughts. This works perfectly for Gamesmaster in this game... as this tournament is a big game and Gamesmaster is "The Gamesmaster!" Thus, this match, and his foe, gives him something to focus on, so the overwhelming voices won't be such a big deal.

But, as Gamesmaster focuses on a game, that game usually involves him directing other people to do his actions. He won't have that advantage. He'll be dropped into the Savage Land, and he'll have to not only deal with the Super Skrull, but, the animal life, too. So, he'll be transported, and then he'll have to try and focus enough to find the Super Skrull, if he's even able to do that. While that's happening, he could land in a pile of raptors or tyranosaurs. MUNCH. Super Skrull could deal with that...Gamesmaster would have a pretty hard time of it. This location really is a trouble for him, if the voter thinks about it. Plus, as noted, Gamesmaster doesn't have the control unless he can "greatly concentrate" on the task at hand. That will be tough in the Savage Land.

He doesn't have to focus on Skrull himself to find him, he just has to focus on the Savage Land. He's not a physical fighter, and very seldom has anyone found him in the physical sense. He hides and sends out his big head or an astral form. In his pre-time he will mentally find the best place for him to hide his body through an astral form (the form he most often takes), so that he can go there as soon as he arrives. Then, as he has done since arriving, he will focus on everything in the Savage Land.

This is very flawed. A predator can easily find him as he's in the "astral form" and nibble away Gamesmaster's body.

Now, I can't say for certain that he can read the mind of Super Skrull, but being that he could influence Shatterstar, a native of Mojoworld and even by the words of Beast, someone with differant make up... chances are that he can find and influence Super Skrull quite easily as well.

But, Shatterstar and Longshot still appear very human. A skrull who has various inate abilities is quite different than those human-resembling people from Mojoworld.

Remember, this place is inhabited with humans, dinosaurs, animals, etc. THIS site says that he claims to be able to link to animals as well as humans, so that adds a whole new slew of possibilities.

As that site says, "Gamesmaster has claimed he can psychically link to animals and plants as well." It hasn't been shown ever. Until you have proof, it's just a person boasting about powers that he may or may not have. I would ask for certain proof....or, let me know which comic this makes reference to.

Also, this takes "great concentration." Gamesmaster usually isn't in the field of battle, and that is going to hurt his ability to concentrate greatly. The more I think about it, the more I realize the Gamesmaster is going to be in a world of hurt. He is someone who usually makes up the game, he isn't one who takes part in it. That's going to effect him to a great extent. Everything after the above quote is about how he'll use the inhabitants to attack the Super Skrull. I'm saying it can't happen due to him not controlling this game and sending out his lackey's to fight for him. He's going to be so frazzled in an unknown situation, he'll be doomed for failure.

Winner = Super Skrull

 

[Phaedrus45]

Oh, and before I get to this rebuttal, let's remember that this is Skrull Pre-Annihilation... a Skrull who was an embaressment to the Skrulls and shunned (as was Skrull's status at the beginning of his mini). He isn't the powerfully respected self-sacreficing Super Skrull goodness that we know him to be now. He's failed time and again, and even his own people shun him. Just wanted to paint the picture how it was at the time of this tourney.

But, the mini cannot be included in the contest; so, pointing out he's the embarrassment of the Skrulls isn't something that can be included. You'd have to point out prior to anything Annihilation that he was considered an embarrassment. (After all, this is flawed in the fact that many, many, many Skrulls have been "embarrassed" by countless defeats, and it doesn't take away from the powers the Super Skrull has.)

I won't quote the quotes, but just to refer to them a bit, there is some conflicting information there. One of the quotes for Skrull states that his powers serpass those of the Fantastic Four's, but then another says that "IF the current Skrull ruler permits, a satellite can send an augmentation beam that ampliflies the Super-Skrull's abilities beyond the Fantastic Four's current levels." So is he more powerful or not? Is he only when amplified or not? I don't know the answer to this, just thought I'd bring it up.

We established that the Super Skrull's abilities are beyond that of the "Original Fantastic Four." That doesn't necessarily imply that they are above the current levels the F4 exhibit. Hope this clarifies the point.

He's done if often in the past. Specifically I recall him manipulating Sonia Blaze during the Younghunt Crossover (X-Force and New Warriors) and a whole City and all the X-Men save Jean Grey in an X-Men Annual (don't recall which one, I want to say "'1997" but I could be wrong). The bio I mentioned in my write up says he uses implants to help control his powers and such games as this helps him focus as well (which is why he plays such games as the Upstarts, the Younghunt, and the mess with Shatterstar). This is his kind of game and it helps him focus so that focusing to find Super Skrull shouldn't be a problem. And while he hears everything thought on the planet, he's never been shown having problems with the other voices, he just weeds through them to focus on those he wants to focus on.

As noted in my rebuttal above, the most important factor in this match-up is the fact that Gamesmaster is totally out of his element. He is used to using others to participate in a game of his choosing. But, now he's a pawn in our Beyonder's game. Add to the fact that he's being transported in time and space to a version of the Savage Land, this "great concentration" he needs will be greatly effected, and he simply won't have the abilities he's had in the past. (Plus, there is no proof he can talk to animals and plants. Many villians boast about their powers, only to be shown it's just that...boasting. I would venture IF he can do this, it takes even greater concentration, and that's something he cannot do.)

He doesn't need to tune out the rest of the world, just focus on the Savage Land, which is what he's always done.

Again, this takes "great concentration." I would venture a guess he's had a controlled environment to achieve much of these abilities. Once Gamesmaster gets transported, he has to defend himself before he can do anything else, and that defense will be something he'll have to constantly do.

As for Skrull being invisible, in the form of a beast, and having differant physiology... none are a problem. He can focus on and manipulate Shatterstar, who has a differant physiology (according) so the same should apply here. And he can read animals as well according to that bio so any of the Savage Land's critters should be findable. And even if he can't read in detail, as I said in my bio, he'd read something, whether it odd or not... and thus, he'd find his foe. The stealth thing that the Skrulls are best at isn't going to fly in this match.

As with Shatterstar, again, I point out that Shatterstar isn't too different from a regular human. Showing he's able to manipulate Shatterstar isn't as effective as showing me he actually took over someone of a far different race...or animal. There is still no actual proof that his ability to control animals is nothing more than boasting....and the boasting itself needs proof, so I can verify the situation with one of my comics.

He'd have to find Gamesmaster first, and as far as I know, no one's ever found Gamesmaster. They've found his astral form, but never his true form. Leading to a NEW IDEA - Gamesmaster always sends out his astral forms to do his buisness. He can do this same thing out into the Savage Land and not only comunicate and mess with Skrull's mind, as he does with everyone, but also keep him away from where his true body is. Skrull wouldn't know that this isn't actually Gamesmaster, as he can make it look real (does often). He can easily just lead Skrull around, into dangers, etc. I doubt Skrull's going to find Gamesmaster.

This actually helps my argument greatly. This shows the voters that Gamesmaster is always in control of his environment. It's how he can "greatly concentrate." Now, imagine someone who has always been safely away, hidden, so his weak frail body cannot be hurt being transported to the Savage Land. He will not be able to concentrate very hard, he'll be worried to death, and it's likely that Super Skrull will win this match by default when a pack of raptors come across the worried little man and eat him up.

In conclusion..ehem...I've chosen not to rebutt every point, because the above greatly helped with my total argument. My main points that lead to victory:

*Gamesmaster is always in control of the games that he's playing; this time, he's not.

*Gamesmaster is always away in a safe, secure enviroment, where he can "greatly concentrate" to keep the game in his hands; this time, he isn't and he cannot.

*Gamesmaster is used to using pawns to play his chosen games; this time, he's the pawn for the first time in someone else's game.

*Gamesmaster must be able to "greatly concentrate" in order to take control of the people around him; with the above statements, he cannot do that.


Location and taking into consideration who the Gamesmaster is leads to one conclusion. While Gamesmaster might appear on paper to be the most powerful person in the contest, he's always the situation always in his hands in the past. When you take him totally out of his element, you greatly change the results of a battle. It would appear he has always been safely away from the action where he can concentrate on the game at hand...his game. This isn't his game, and imagine how peeved he'll be when being made to participate in a game not of his choosing. At first, I thought this was a difficult match for Super Skrull to win; but, it's with really understanding my opponent that I realize he's pretty much defeated just because of everything stated above.

Winner = Super Skrull

 

[JewishHobbit]

Yes, he will have an idea of what Skrulls can do. But, there is nothing to indicate Gamesmaster is a genius who can discern what type of ruse a Skrull can use in hiding from something else. Skrull physiology is vastly different from humans, and since Skrulls even have hypnosis, it shows they that talent might influence Gamesmaster's abilities on them.

Shatterstar may seem "human," but comic book continuity says that he is NOT the same as humans in his genetic make up and such. It's differant enough that even Beast had a problem with it (Mentioned in both Cable and X-Force after he was hurt following the Age of Apocalypse). Just because he looks human, doesn't mean that he is made the same way. Beast also mentioned that Longshot gave him the same problems. If Gamesmaster could easily mess with Shatterstar's head (for quite some time at that) then that shows me (and should show the voters) that Gamesmaster doesn't have a problem with people of other races... alien or no (since Shatterstar and Skrulls are both aliens). And I highly doubt Super Skrull's hyptnosis would some how interfere with Gamesmaster's telepathy. If this were the case, two telepaths wouldn't be able to have telepathic fights or conversations... and it happens constantly and always has.

Also, we saw in the X-Men:The Twelve storyline that Skrulls can be attacked and harmed by telepaths. Xavier sensed the one that was spying on them (Uncanny X-Men 376), and then during the actual fight, he mind blasted two skrulls posing as Ahab and Caliban and knocked them out instantly (Uncanny X-Men 377). Gamesmaster is easily a telepath somewhere near Xavier's level, so the fact that Xavier could do it with ease, shows that Gamesmaster can at least manipulate a skrull's mind. And though the Super Skrull is more powerful than most skrulls physically, there's nothing that shows he has any greater resistance to telepathy than a normal skrull. He's a physical improvement, not a mental one.

I think both of the above points proves that Super Skrull is very liable to be harmed by Gamesmaster mentally, controled, or just flat out knocked out.

I'm ok saying Gamesmaster can use Prep Time to understand the Savage Land. But, the terrain he is learning from will be different when he arrives. (To remind the voters, the contestants not only get transported to these locations, but they get transported to a certain time, too. This ensures no planting of devices. It would do a character no good planting explosives when the time can be a month or a year ago in time.)

Wow, I honestly do not recall ever stating that the locations change to a certain time. When did we make that call? I didn't make it last season, so it must have been this season, but if we did, we really should have been stating when the time is. I know there are times when we specify a certain time (Genosha during the attack, etc) but when a time wasn't given it should have always been just a general statement of the place. I have always played like this. Exactly when was this changed and am I just forgetting it?

Honestly though, the location isn't a big deal. He can just influence the minds of the inhabitants and have them protect him, lead him to their home, and keep him there as a safe haven. He's in no real danger from the suroundings.

But, as Gamesmaster focuses on a game, that game usually involves him directing other people to do his actions. He won't have that advantage. He'll be dropped into the Savage Land, and he'll have to not only deal with the Super Skrull, but, the animal life, too. So, he'll be transported, and then he'll have to try and focus enough to find the Super Skrull, if he's even able to do that. While that's happening, he could land in a pile of raptors or tyranosaurs. MUNCH. Super Skrull could deal with that...Gamesmaster would have a pretty hard time of it. This location really is a trouble for him, if the voter thinks about it. Plus, as noted, Gamesmaster doesn't have the control unless he can "greatly concentrate" on the task at hand. That will be tough in the Savage Land.

Okay, just want to clarify something here. In a good strategy, my opponant is playing up the idea that Gamesmaster's Omnipitance would be far too hindering for him to really be a threat, that somehow his powers work against him here... but this is not the case and has never been the case. The Gamesmaster had a good couple of years as a main foe in the X-Men, X-Force, and New Mutants comic books and NEVER ONCE did his powers hinder him in any way. NEVER ONCE! He played games and such to help him focus, and what do you think this is? IT'S A GAME! He has the whole savage land filled with inhabitants to control and pursuade and to use as pawns if he so desires, just the same as he did in the Upstarts and the Younghunt. And even if that seems a bit big, his last two "games' were on a much smaller scale, the first just messing with Shatterstar and Siryn, the other just messing with Jean, Joseph, and Gambit... no big game or focus, just something to focus on. If he just focused on one person and made that person his game.... hey, that's a focus, it's a game, he can do it, no problem! And something I brought up that my opponant ignored is that Gamesmaster has technological implants (shown in the bio in an earlier post) that helps him control his powers as well. HIS POWERS ARE NOT A PROBLEM IN THIS MATCH!It would be out of character for them to suddenly cause him such grief here in this match. He has them in check, no problem.

This is very flawed. A predator can easily find him as he's in the "astral form" and nibble away Gamesmaster's body.

It's not like he's just going to pop a squat in the middle of a clearing here. Gamemaster has never been found, he knows how to hide himself. He has 24 hours to find the best place to hide himself away from danger and then he can quickly find that place once he arrives through his astral form, through the minds of the in habitants, etc. Heck, he could control every inhabitant in the Savage Land and just have them come get him, protect him as he makes his way to their layer and then protect him while he stays there eating grapes from hot chicks in string bikinis. Gamesmaster's body isn't a problem either.

But, Shatterstar and Longshot still appear very human. A skrull who has various inate abilities is quite different than those human-resembling people from Mojoworld.

From Beast's on chronological lips.... they are very differant. Proof has been given.

As that site says, "Gamesmaster has claimed he can psychically link to animals and plants as well." It hasn't been shown ever. Until you have proof, it's just a person boasting about powers that he may or may not have. I would ask for certain proof....or, let me know which comic this makes reference to.

If someone claims they can do something, 9 times out of 10 we're going to assume that they are telling the truth. Gamemaster has never been a braggard and has always come accross more serious than threatening. Why would he just make up something randomly? Why would he threaten someone by saying he can be physically linked to animals? It makes no sense. If the man has the power to listen to every thought in the world (Omnipath), mentally control whole cities (X-Men Annual '97), Control another person's actions (Sonia Blaze in Younghunt), and alter the mental perceptions of a person completely (Younghunt and X-Force/Shatterstar stuff).... I'd think it's perfectly believable that when the man says he can link to animals.... he can link to them. It'd be the lamest of all threats in history if he couldn't. And before it's said, no, I do not have any comcis that I can look through to provide 'proof' that he can do it. I semi-recall him looking through an animal during the X-Force issues involving Siryn, Deadpool, and Shatterstar, but I don' thave the comics to check that, so that's all I have. And the quest here isn't to provide proof, it's to reason with the voters. And if I were a voter, the bolded sentance above would be enough for me to believe Gamesmaster at his word. It's not like he's a practical joker trying to puff himself up anyhow... that would be way out of character.

Also, this takes "great concentration." Gamesmaster usually isn't in the field of battle, and that is going to hurt his ability to concentrate greatly.

Gamesmaster is going to be just fine, protected by the inhabitants of the land in their nice cozy home, or at least protected by them as they make their ways there. And if the voters agree with me that it's out of character for him to brag, and that he is truly powerful enough to control dinosaurs/animals, then he's under no harm from the location at all.

The more I think about it, the more I realize the Gamesmaster is going to be in a world of hurt. He is someone who usually makes up the game, he isn't one who takes part in it. That's going to effect him to a great extent.

Not at all. He's part of a game, but he's playing his own game within it. Not only that, but the Upstarts was a game that he wasn't the creator of and was just a pawn in under Selene.... so this isn't a big deal. He's running his own game, so it's fine.... and the inhabited arena makes it ideal for Gamesmaster.

Everything after the above quote is about how he'll use the inhabitants to attack the Super Skrull. I'm saying it can't happen due to him not controlling this game and sending out his lackey's to fight for him. He's going to be so frazzled in an unknown situation, he'll be doomed for failure.

Again, as I stated earlier, my opponant is trying to pain the picture of a frantic distracted Gamesmaster who is out of his place.... but it really isn't like that. This is no differant than any other situation the Gamesmaster's been in. He can control the inhabitants, play his own game, and just have a good time watching the Super Skrull fight for his life. This is just another game like the others, and this is EXACTLY the kind of situation that the Gamesmaster thrives in. This whole tournament is his playground.

And all this controling the inhabitants, dinosaurs, hiding his body, etc. stuff that my opponant is playing as 'iffy' doesn't even have to be much of a factor. I proved earlier with the Shatterstar/Skrull's effected by telepathy thing that this could very well just be an easy win for Gamesmaster if he just knocks out the Super Skrull, takes over his mind and controls him, or does whatever the heck he wants to him. This game focuses him, besides the implants that also help him control his powers (making them not a problem in the slightest). Gamesmaster can control the Super Skrull, as well as the inhabitants, and quite possibly the dinosaurs and animals of this land as well. If Gamesmaster controls all the chess pieces on the board, including the enemies.... exactly how is it that he is doomed? Simple answer... he's not.

Winner - Gamesmaster

 

[Phaedrus45]

Shatterstar may seem "human," but comic book continuity says that he is NOT the same as humans in his genetic make up and such. It's differant enough that even Beast had a problem with it (Mentioned in both Cable and X-Force after he was hurt following the Age of Apocalypse). Just because he looks human, doesn't mean that he is made the same way. Beast also mentioned that Longshot gave him the same problems. If Gamesmaster could easily mess with Shatterstar's head (for quite some time at that) then that shows me (and should show the voters) that Gamesmaster doesn't have a problem with people of other races... alien or no (since Shatterstar and Skrulls are both aliens). And I highly doubt Super Skrull's hyptnosis would some how interfere with Gamesmaster's telepathy. If this were the case, two telepaths wouldn't be able to have telepathic fights or conversations... and it happens constantly and always has.

Ah, it's good to have one of our old fashioned debates again.

Gamesmaster is no Xavier. Xavier can handle himself in a combat situation, while Gamesmaster is usually a behind the scenes person. After all, as pointed out, Gamesmaster needs "great concentration" to perform his acts, which would coincide why he isn't really around to fight his battles. It's one thing to treat a battle like a game of chess, where you have time to think out your next move, and it's clearly something else entirely being the pawn on the battlefield.

Gamesmaster is easily a telepath somewhere near Xavier's level, so the fact that Xavier could do it with ease, shows that Gamesmaster can at least manipulate a skrull's mind.

Just pointing out this one statement as completely false, imo. Xavier has been in battle situations; Gamesmaster hasn't. Xavier has had time and training in developing his many skills; it seems apparent that Gamesmaster hasn't. As they say, the proof is in the pudding, and while this might be true with Xavier, there is absolutely no proof with Gamesmaster.

Wow, I honestly do not recall ever stating that the locations change to a certain time. When did we make that call? I didn't make it last season, so it must have been this season, but if we did, we really should have been stating when the time is. I know there are times when we specify a certain time (Genosha during the attack, etc) but when a time wasn't given it should have always been just a general statement of the place. I have always played like this. Exactly when was this changed and am I just forgetting it?

We've actually stated this a couple times this season. The thinking lies in the fact that as our Beyonder grabs people from different timelines, he does the same with locations. (We'll narrow it down, of course, with examples like the Baxter Building.) It would be illogical to say when a location would be used...after all, Gamesmaster would be pulled after his last appearance, if it didn't result in death or be involved in a current adventure at the time of the contest starting. Same is said with Super Skrull. For example, it's likely that our Beyonder will use a version of the Savage Land from right before our contest started. It couldn't be effected by Super Skrull, because he was currently involved in Annihilation...and, it couldn't be effected by Gamesmaster, because we have no idea what he's been up to, so he'd be plucked from his last appearance, which (I'm not positive) would be the end of the 90's. For this reason, it was best to just say "a random moment in time." It gives everyone equal advantage as best as possible.

Hope that explains it well enough.

Okay, just want to clarify something here. In a good strategy, my opponant is playing up the idea that Gamesmaster's Omnipitance would be far too hindering for him to really be a threat, that somehow his powers work against him here... but this is not the case and has never been the case. The Gamesmaster had a good couple of years as a main foe in the X-Men, X-Force, and New Mutants comic books and NEVER ONCE did his powers hinder him in any way. NEVER ONCE! He played games and such to help him focus, and what do you think this is? IT'S A GAME! He has the whole savage land filled with inhabitants to control and pursuade and to use as pawns if he so desires, just the same as he did in the Upstarts and the Younghunt. And even if that seems a bit big, his last two "games' were on a much smaller scale, the first just messing with Shatterstar and Siryn, the other just messing with Jean, Joseph, and Gambit... no big game or focus, just something to focus on. If he just focused on one person and made that person his game.... hey, that's a focus, it's a game, he can do it, no problem! And something I brought up that my opponant ignored is that Gamesmaster has technological implants (shown in the bio in an earlier post) that helps him control his powers as well. HIS POWERS ARE NOT A PROBLEM IN THIS MATCH!It would be out of character for them to suddenly cause him such grief here in this match. He has them in check, no problem.

Gamesmaster, as you admitted, has never actually been in the field of battle. He's like the gods of old playing with man like they are pawns to be used for his amusement. But, now he's the pawn. This idea of someone controlling him totally throws off his normal game. Instead of playing a game of Chess, he is a piece on our Beyonder's chessboard. This would totally effect his game, and it changes everything. The clues lie in the description of his powers and the evidence of how he manipulates everything from afar "with great concentration." That's not the case now.

It's not like he's just going to pop a squat in the middle of a clearing here. Gamemaster has never been found, he knows how to hide himself. He has 24 hours to find the best place to hide himself away from danger and then he can quickly find that place once he arrives through his astral form, through the minds of the in habitants, etc. Heck, he could control every inhabitant in the Savage Land and just have them come get him, protect him as he makes his way to their layer and then protect him while he stays there eating grapes from hot chicks in string bikinis. Gamesmaster's body isn't a problem either.

First, stating that "Gamesmaster has never been found" only furthers my point. Gamesmaster is used to controling everything from afar, in an undisclosed location. Now, he's being placed smack dab in the middle of the Savage Land. He's not going to know where he is being put, he's going to not going to be able to concentrate as he must to hear a select number of thoughts, and the location is extremely dangerous for him. With all the appearances we've seen of people being thrown into the Savage Land, the appearances of predators is almost constant. Nobody ever plops down and says, "Oh, I am going to find the perfect location to hide and not worry about predators eating me." It just doesn't happen in this location.

I'll keep coming back to facts pointed out by both of us:

*Gamesmaster has always used his powers in the comfort of an undisclosed location.

*Gamesmaster needs great concentration to make his powers work effectively.

*Gamesmaster has always been like a person controlling his pawns on a chessboard, and he's never really been the pawn in the field of battle.

If someone claims they can do something, 9 times out of 10 we're going to assume that they are telling the truth. Gamemaster has never been a braggard and has always come accross more serious than threatening. Why would he just make up something randomly? Why would he threaten someone by saying he can be physically linked to animals? It makes no sense. If the man has the power to listen to every thought in the world (Omnipath), mentally control whole cities (X-Men Annual '97), Control another person's actions (Sonia Blaze in Younghunt), and alter the mental perceptions of a person completely (Younghunt and X-Force/Shatterstar stuff).... I'd think it's perfectly believable that when the man says he can link to animals.... he can link to them. It'd be the lamest of all threats in history if he couldn't. And before it's said, no, I do not have any comcis that I can look through to provide 'proof' that he can do it. I semi-recall him looking through an animal during the X-Force issues involving Siryn, Deadpool, and Shatterstar, but I don' thave the comics to check that, so that's all I have. And the quest here isn't to provide proof, it's to reason with the voters. And if I were a voter, the bolded sentance above would be enough for me to believe Gamesmaster at his word. It's not like he's a practical joker trying to puff himself up anyhow... that would be way out of character.

Actually, I've been voted against without proof of something someone's said before without actual proof. And, in other battles, especially when quoting only one website with particular information, I've been told to give actual proof before. I've read five other bios on Gamesmaster, and none of them mention this one sentence. I think it's only fair that I do what many others have asked of me in the past: proof. And, villians do like to brag about how wonderful they are, sometimes boasting beyond their abilities. I did find out one thing, though, that I missed before:

"To a lesser extent, the Gamesmaster is also able to control the actions of other sentient beings, as well as their thoughts."

Again, I point out that Gamesmaster did all of this from his private island, away from any distractions. And, as it says, in controling the actions of "other sentient beings, it was "to a lesser extent." This means that while Shatterstar might have been controled, someone with the powers of a Skrull might not be effected.

Gamesmaster is going to be just fine, protected by the inhabitants of the land in their nice cozy home, or at least protected by them as they make their ways there. And if the voters agree with me that it's out of character for him to brag, and that he is truly powerful enough to control dinosaurs/animals, then he's under no harm from the location at all.

The proof of Gamesmaster bragging might be found in this supposed statement. As all the descriptions of his powers explain, he is in constant access to every mind on the planet within his private island. (Remember, it appears FOR SOME REASON he doesn't leave this island EVER.) But, he boasts he can control plants. When did plants have minds??? It sure sounds like a boast to me....or, incorrect material provided by just one source.

Again, the voter has to acknowledge that while on paper Gamesmaster could win this entire tournament, the following factors are true:

*Gamesmaster has to have "great concentration" to use his powers as effectively as my opponent states.

*Gamesmaster has never left his private island, leading the reader to guess why that would be.

*For the first time, Gamesmaster would be directly, PHYSICALLY, involved in a game NOT OF HIS CHOOSING.

These are points I keep spelling out, and I believe they are quite logical. I would venture that Gamesmaster needs to be privately away from being in close contact with others, especially in regards to using his powers effectively. The more it's spelled out, the more it seems Gamesmaster is screwed in this and future matches.

Not at all. He's part of a game, but he's playing his own game within it. Not only that, but the Upstarts was a game that he wasn't the creator of and was just a pawn in under Selene.... so this isn't a big deal. He's running his own game, so it's fine.... and the inhabited arena makes it ideal for Gamesmaster.

Gamesmaster was involved in Selene's game for reasons of his own. As his bio states:

"He agreed, if only to provide a distraction from the constant chatter in his mind. By focusing on the ambitious and powerful thoughts of the Upstarts, the Gamesmaster was able to somewhat drown out the rest of the world."

There is no reason Gamesmaster would volunteer for this game. It totally takes him out of his comfort zone, which is his private island. There is no game for Gamesmaster to run, he is the pawn in this game, nothing else.

Again, as I stated earlier, my opponant is trying to pain the picture of a frantic distracted Gamesmaster who is out of his place.... but it really isn't like that. This is no differant than any other situation the Gamesmaster's been in.

Wrong.

1) Has Gamesmaster ever been a pawn in a game not agreed by him? NO.

2) Has Gamesmaster ever left his private island? NO.

3) Is it safe to say the Gamesmaster stays on his private island without any interference because he needs to concentrate on the game at hand? YES.

To say, "this is no different than any other situation the Gamesmaster's been in," is completely false. Again, I'm sorry to repeat over and over why this is out of the Gamesmaster's element; but, that statement is the most incorrect I've read in this argument.

And all this controling the inhabitants, dinosaurs, hiding his body, etc. stuff that my opponant is playing as 'iffy' doesn't even have to be much of a factor. I proved earlier with the Shatterstar/Skrull's effected by telepathy thing that this could very well just be an easy win for Gamesmaster if he just knocks out the Super Skrull, takes over his mind and controls him, or does whatever the heck he wants to him. This game focuses him, besides the implants that also help him control his powers (making them not a problem in the slightest). Gamesmaster can control the Super Skrull, as well as the inhabitants, and quite possibly the dinosaurs and animals of this land as well. If Gamesmaster controls all the chess pieces on the board, including the enemies.... exactly how is it that he is doomed? Simple answer... he's not.

Just reading the second to last sentence is the answer to the question. Gamesmaster is used to controlling all the pieces on the board; but, this time he's the piece on the board and has all the distractions to go with it. Looking at Gamesmaster's powers, it's obvious he needs "great concentration." He's secluded himself on a private island, away from everyone else, exactly for this reason. The evidence shows this to be correct. He is not in the same league as Xavier, he has plenty experience on the battlefield. Plus, while the example of controlling Shatterstar keeps getting brought up, the fact remains that his powers work at "a lesser extent" on other sentinent beings. A Skrull has powers which would very likely make these "lesser extent" powers null. And, as pointed out, it would appear his powers might just overwhelm him by being out of his element.

Winner = Super Skrull

 

[JewishHobbit]

Ah, it's good to have one of our old fashioned debates again.

Yeah, I almost instantly want to start yelling. That's when you know it's good But long indepth debates typically get old quickly, resulting in casual skimming of the material, so we may want to try and wrap it up soon. We're starting to write ourselves into circles. I'll reply to your points and then make a generalized statement and we'll go from there, instead of just going back and forth on the same points. Cool?

Gamesmaster is no Xavier. Xavier can handle himself in a combat situation, while Gamesmaster is usually a behind the scenes person. After all, as pointed out, Gamesmaster needs "great concentration" to perform his acts, which would coincide why he isn't really around to fight his battles. It's one thing to treat a battle like a game of chess, where you have time to think out your next move, and it's clearly something else entirely being the pawn on the battlefield.

The thing is, Gamesmaster has 24 hours to plan this game out like a game of chess. He knows what he's getting into and where he's going and who he's facing (to an extent). If he were suddenly thrown into the Savage Land, then he'd have problems, but he has a day to process it and prepare himself. Even if he tries to figure out who to take over once there and the "time" changes when he arrives, the plan would still be the same. In my mind, and I hope in the mind of the voters, Gamesmaster can contact animals just fine, and thus, I don't see him being in any trouble from the location (provided he doesn't arrive in a plane... those things always blow). If there is a problem, he can focus on a single task of finding the nearest people to him and claim them. Once he gets a person or two who know the terrain, then he has his protection and he should be fine until he can get to a place where he can concentrate better, or until he can gather others to this place. Saying any more will be talking in circles. I'm okay to let the location debate lie in the voter's hands.

Just pointing out this one statement as completely false, imo. Xavier has been in battle situations; Gamesmaster hasn't. Xavier has had time and training in developing his many skills; it seems apparent that Gamesmaster hasn't. As they say, the proof is in the pudding, and while this might be true with Xavier, there is absolutely no proof with Gamesmaster.

People with absolutely no mental training can use their powers to dangerous degrees. Typically if someone without training tries to attack telepathically it could either do little, or fry someone's brain. Being that Gamesmaster is the Omnipath he is, I'd say the latter. I don't believe this would happen, as I believe Gamesmaster to be strong and fineseful in the use of his powers, but using your defense against you... if he is untrained, then if he did try to do a mental attack against the Super Skrull, or any other foes (Dinos, etc.) then they would most probably be brain fried and dead instantly... still winning him the match, albeit crudely and unGamesmaster-like. Honestly, I just see him doing wonderfully with his powers and this wouldn't even be an issue... but it's either he has the finese and power, or he doesn't and everyone's dead (no way someone with a mind as powerful as he does does minor telepathic attacks). Either way works for me.

We've actually stated this a couple times this season. The thinking lies in the fact that as our Beyonder grabs people from different timelines, he does the same with locations. (We'll narrow it down, of course, with examples like the Baxter Building.) It would be illogical to say when a location would be used...after all, Gamesmaster would be pulled after his last appearance, if it didn't result in death or be involved in a current adventure at the time of the contest starting. Same is said with Super Skrull. For example, it's likely that our Beyonder will use a version of the Savage Land from right before our contest started. It couldn't be effected by Super Skrull, because he was currently involved in Annihilation...and, it couldn't be effected by Gamesmaster, because we have no idea what he's been up to, so he'd be plucked from his last appearance, which (I'm not positive) would be the end of the 90's. For this reason, it was best to just say "a random moment in time." It gives everyone equal advantage as best as possible.

Hope that explains it well enough.

Hmm, makes perfect sense... not sure how I missed that (man I suck as a co-leader )

Gamesmaster, as you admitted, has never actually been in the field of battle. He's like the gods of old playing with man like they are pawns to be used for his amusement. But, now he's the pawn. This idea of someone controlling him totally throws off his normal game. Instead of playing a game of Chess, he is a piece on our Beyonder's chessboard. This would totally effect his game, and it changes everything. The clues lie in the description of his powers and the evidence of how he manipulates everything from afar "with great concentration." That's not the case now.

We assume he's never been in battle. As far as we know he could be a rock hard marine that can kill a man 30 ways with just his index finger. However, as you stick to your idea that him being a pawn would effect his ability to perform, I also stick to my stance that he is still in charge of his game each round. Just because he and one other is thrown into a location to fight, doesn't mean that Gamesmaster suddenly loses all train of thought. He has a whole day to comprehend it and make it a game of his own to focus on (it's what he always does, nothing differant here). I think we've both gone in circles with this one enough and I'm willing to let it go.

First, stating that "Gamesmaster has never been found" only furthers my point. Gamesmaster is used to controling everything from afar, in an undisclosed location. Now, he's being placed smack dab in the middle of the Savage Land. He's not going to know where he is being put, he's going to not going to be able to concentrate as he must to hear a select number of thoughts, and the location is extremely dangerous for him. With all the appearances we've seen of people being thrown into the Savage Land, the appearances of predators is almost constant. Nobody ever plops down and says, "Oh, I am going to find the perfect location to hide and not worry about predators eating me." It just doesn't happen in this location.

Let's think of it a differant way. We want these matches to be the best that they can possibly be with the people at their possible best (as the match, people, and location allows). While it's entirely possible that while Gamesmaster arrives, he focuses for a minute or two to find a pawn or series of pawns to come and protect him while he does his thing... only to be eaten by a T-Rex before he can do his thing, barely a minute into the match..... what good would that be for a competative match? I, as a voter, like to see a character overcome another character by their wits, strengts, and wisdom... not by cheap off-chance coincidenses. A T-Rex could come out and kill him quickly, or it could be off in another part of the Savage Land. It's 50% possible that Gamesmaster would be killed, and it's 50% possible that he has a good two to three hours before anything dangerous catches wind of him, giving him time to play this match at his best. Do you, the voters, want to vote against Gamesmaster based on an random act of events that do not even have anything to do with his opponant's skills, or would you rather vote based on the two characters in their respective battles. Can Super Skrull overcome Gamesmaster's Savage Land armies, the dinosaurs, and everything else and get to Gamesmaster's protected body to win the match, or is Gamesmaster's calculating and powerful mind too much for a single Skrull to handle? I know how I prefer to vote in the matches I read... how about you? I say leave out the random acts of chance, and let the battle itself with both characters at their strongest (both of which are fully capable of reaching that potential in this match and location) be the deciding factor.

And just to compare.... there are inhabitants on this Island. I could just as easily claim that the inhabitants will see Skrull as a beast threat and will start to attack and while he dodges well, a random arrow could chuck into the back of his head, killing him...and the Gamesmaster doesn't even have to raise a finger. Granted, this could happen, but why vote based on some off chance like that. I want to see the best Gamesmaster has to bring against the best Super Skrull has to bring.

Unless Phaed's scared

Just kidding

I'll keep coming back to facts pointed out by both of us:

*Gamesmaster has always used his powers in the comfort of an undisclosed location.

There's just as much chance of his making this happen as him not. And if the voters believe he can control animals then this isn't even a problem.

*Gamesmaster needs great concentration to make his powers work effectively.

*Gamesmaster has always been like a person controlling his pawns on a chessboard, and he's never really been the pawn in the field of battle.

I believe that is a record breaking... someone should clean that up. Both statements already touched on.

And, villians do like to brag about how wonderful they are, sometimes boasting beyond their abilities.

Some do, yes... usually the bragging type of villains... which Gamesmaster is not. He's never once shown any sign of being a bragging type of character, or one that plays poker and tries to bluff. With the exception of the comment about animals, every other thing he's ever said has been proven true. And the animal thing hasn't been proven false, it's just not be touched on. So based on his character and his character traits and his personality and all that... it would make more sense that he can talk and control animals. And if this is true, and the voters can see this, then they will know that there is no longer any threat to the Gamesmaster in this match. He can concentrate control EVERYTHING in play and just play it how he wishes.... pulling everyone's strings, including Super Skrulls. If Gamesmaster can control the animals, then in this match he truly is a God.

I did find out one thing, though, that I missed before:

"To a lesser extent, the Gamesmaster is also able to control the actions of other sentient beings, as well as their thoughts."

Again, I point out that Gamesmaster did all of this from his private island, away from any distractions. And, as it says, in controling the actions of "other sentient beings, it was "to a lesser extent." This means that while Shatterstar might have been controled, someone with the powers of a Skrull might not be effected.

How in the world they can call his control an entire city, including the X-Men, "To a lesser degree" is beyond me. I think this is one of those situations where the comics speak louder than the bios. He's proven this to be untrue.

And the powers of a Skrull really wouldn't make much of a differance. If Shatterstar's make up is differant from a humans, same as a Skrull's make up is differant from a humans, then I really don't see there being much differance in how Gamesmaster plays them. This is another broken record and I'm willing to let it drop.

The proof of Gamesmaster bragging might be found in this supposed statement. As all the descriptions of his powers explain, he is in constant access to every mind on the planet within his private island. (Remember, it appears FOR SOME REASON he doesn't leave this island EVER.) But, he boasts he can control plants. When did plants have minds??? It sure sounds like a boast to me....or, incorrect material provided by just one source.

This whole time I've never mentioned plants, and the reason is that I do not remember him ever stating it. I don't recall anything about plants and it would make absolutely no sense that he could do anything with plants. To be honest, I'm thinking it's probably something wrong with the bio. It doesn't make any sense. However, judged by the four or five comics I just looked through with him in it, he never once shows signs of bragging. It just doesn't add up.

Again, the voter has to acknowledge that while on paper Gamesmaster could win this entire tournament, the following factors are true:

*Gamesmaster has to have "great concentration" to use his powers as effectively as my opponent states.

And if he controls animals then he'll have that.... or if the 50/50 odds are in his favor then he'll have that concentration... or if the voters want the two combantants at their best, may the best character win... he'll have that. His concentration in this match is up to the voters belief of his ability to control animals, or in their believe that in random chance... he'll lose (in an embaressing and rediculous loss that cheapens the character and his abilities). I'd rather him lose based on a superior foe, and not a random velociraptor attack.

*Gamesmaster has never left his private island, leading the reader to guess why that would be.

Well, here's a long shot..... maybe he doesn't have to? He can go anywhere in the world that he wants instantaneously and see it as clearly as with his own eyes. Why take the slow trec to a place he wants to go and pay for the expenses? If I had his power, I wouldn't travel much either. I think that's good enough reason right there.

*For the first time, Gamesmaster would be directly, PHYSICALLY, involved in a game NOT OF HIS CHOOSING.

He has a day to make it of his choosing. He was Selene's pawn in the past and he overcame and took over... nothing's changed. He'll just make it his game now... and with a location full of pawns, it's the perfect oppertunity.

These are points I keep spelling out, and I believe they are quite logical. I would venture that Gamesmaster needs to be privately away from being in close contact with others, especially in regards to using his powers effectively. The more it's spelled out, the more it seems Gamesmaster is screwed in this and future matches.

And these are points I keep discrediting and explaining away... and I find my explanations to be quite logical. I would venture that Super Skrull is way out of his league here and unless he makes immediate contact with his foe, then he has no chance of winning this match. The more it's spelled out, the more it seems that Super Skrull is screwed in this match... there won't be anymore future matches.

tee hee, see what I did there

Gamesmaster was involved in Selene's game for reasons of his own. As his bio states:

"He agreed, if only to provide a distraction from the constant chatter in his mind. By focusing on the ambitious and powerful thoughts of the Upstarts, the Gamesmaster was able to somewhat drown out the rest of the world."

There is no reason Gamesmaster would volunteer for this game. It totally takes him out of his comfort zone, which is his private island. There is no game for Gamesmaster to run, he is the pawn in this game, nothing else.

Selene used him for her own reasons, and he accepted for the reasons above... that doesn't make him any less of a pawn of hers, and he overcame her and took charge. Granted, he didn't decide to take part of this competition, but that doesn't mean he all of a sudden goes stupid and doesn't know what to do. He has time before each match to take the match and turn it into a game of his own liking and run it. He knows his life is at stake... why would he just crap out when he has time to think it through and prepare? He has somewhere to run, all the way to the finals of this tournament, and beyond! He's the gamesmaster, it's what he does.

Wrong.

1) Has Gamesmaster ever been a pawn in a game not agreed by him? NO.

2) Has Gamesmaster ever left his private island? NO.

These are covered above.

3) Is it safe to say the Gamesmaster stays on his private island without any interference because he needs to concentrate on the game at hand? YES.

Complete assumption with no facts to back it. There's a few lines in a bio that may give reason, but nothing is stated in the slightest that makes that fact ("Mr. Proof!"). Heck, I gave a far more convincing reason earlier if you ask me. Why leave physically when he can mentally and astrally be anywhere he wants in an instant? He has no reason to leave.

To say, "this is no different than any other situation the Gamesmaster's been in," is completely false. Again, I'm sorry to repeat over and over why this is out of the Gamesmaster's element; but, that statement is the most incorrect I've read in this argument.

I'm not saying that it's no differant in regards to him being there.... I'm saying it's no differant in that it's a game and he prefers and excels in games. He will look on this as another game with a slightly differant method of being run, and he'll do his best to win it. As stated earlier, he's not going to crap out because he's not used to it. He's the Gamesmaster, he'll make it his own game each round and find a way to advance one way or the other.

Just reading the second to last sentence is the answer to the question. Gamesmaster is used to controlling all the pieces on the board; but, this time he's the piece on the board and has all the distractions to go with it. Looking at Gamesmaster's powers, it's obvious he needs "great concentration." He's secluded himself on a private island, away from everyone else, exactly for this reason. The evidence shows this to be correct. He is not in the same league as Xavier, he has plenty experience on the battlefield. Plus, while the example of controlling Shatterstar keeps getting brought up, the fact remains that his powers work at "a lesser extent" on other sentinent beings. A Skrull has powers which would very likely make these "lesser extent" powers null. And, as pointed out, it would appear his powers might just overwhelm him by being out of his element.

Winner = Super Skrull

All these points have been defended above and I think it's obvious that Gamesmaster owns this match. It is no longer about whether Super Skrull has the power to stop Gamesmaster, but rather whether or not Gamesmaster can start his attack. I think this is because it's obvious that Super Skrull is no match for Gamesmaster's superior mental abilities and he can only win on a technicality, or if Gamesmaster is only running on a 1/4 tank. I think this says a lot for Gamesmaster, and the fact that I've adaquately (in my opinion) defended every offense that my opponant as thrown at him in this regard shows that Gamesmaster should be the winner of this match.

Winner - Gamesmaster