Contest of Marvels II Thread 2

[JewishHobbit]

Wallflower (House of M) Vs Spiral

My write up is mostly the same as it has been with Wallflower. She is little known, and she is ruthless and well trained. And if her foe can breath, she can be taken in an instant, the second she comes into contact.

So here's my thinking, neither character will know each other. It's obvious that Wallflower won't know Spriral, but I can see your thoughts turning here. You're thinking that Spiral could just "Toon In" and watch Wallflower and get an idea of what she's about. This doesn't work for several reasons....

1) This Wallflower is from the House of M. There is no House of M anymore and if Spiral tried to watch it, she'd just get the normal 616 world (referance Exiles).

2) If Spiral were to toon in to the 616, which would be all she can do, she won't find the Wallflower she faces. She would find a timid little girl who can barely use her powers and is too afraid to. It would be a total misrepresentation of what she faces and she'd come into the match ill-prepared.

And 3) This is to the best of my knowledge, but I think it applies. Spiral doesn't mess with Mojo's tech. She teleports and does Mojo's bidding, but she hasn't ever been one to use the tech and there's no proof (that I'm aware of) that shows that she can even see 616. She can't use other people, so the regular programmers can't do it for her, and unless there's proof that she can use the equipment, it wouldn't even be accessable to her. It's like sayin Cannonball can use Cerebro. It's not something he'd normally use, and thus, the television tech isn't something Sprial would normally use.

Okay, so that said... it is my believe that both characters would come into play ready for whatever may come. Sprial is a powerful sorcerous, I won't deny that, but she won't know what's coming. And a major advantage here is that they are in a city. Spiral is alone, but Wallflower has a city of victoms to throw at her. I see the match starting with Wallflower appearing, and not knowing what she's up against, she'd start unleashing her pheremones and infecting the residents. She urge them to find Spiral, and they'd do as they are told (they can't resist it). Spiral doesn't exactly blend in, so it shouldn't be hard to find her. Now I don't believe for a moment the residense will defeat Spiral, as there's just too many ways to get around them. What this will do is wear her down, give Wallflower her location, and will help her to blend in with the crowd for a more strategic and stealth course of action. Spiral would be fighting the crowds, or teleporting away and such, but she won't know to not breath, or to create a spell that keeps her from breathing. That's not exactly something that one would just naturally think to do. Thus, as Wallflower gets close enough to Spiral for her to get a wiff of her pheremones, Spiral is suddenly completely under Wallflower's control. She won't be able to summon a spell, or run, or teleport away... she'll have no idea what's come to get her. She won't know anything, only that she suddenly has a strong urge to let the people claim her. She won't fight and Wallflower will just watch as the people of Hells Kitchen beat her to death and shoot her with guns, stab her with her own swords, etc.

So the short of it is, Spiral is powerful, but with the vast amount of people for Wallflower to control, she uses them to keep Spiral busy until she can arrive (in the guise of a normal townsperson... since she doesn't stick out in the slightest) and get close enough to let Spiral breath her phereomones (which isn't exactly very close even). Then she will take control and allow the people to continue beating her and kill her... loving watching it every second.

Creepy... but effective.

Winner - Wallfower (HoM)

 

[Phaedrus45]

Alex Powers vs. Super Skrull:

As I already mentioned, this is an awesome match-up, considering we have two characters with the combined powers of four known heroes. (Actually, Super Skrull could be said to have five, which would include his own Skrull powers, which are formidable enough on their own.)

First, I'd like to point out an important factor about Skrulls:


Quote:
The Skrulls are known for their ability to shapeshift, and are able to assume virtually any form, be it organic (e.g., cows[20]) or inorganic (e.g., lamp[21]). As a result, the Skrulls excel at spying and infiltration. Skrulls are also able to use their shapeshifting abilities to form weapons (eg. blades and clubs) with parts of their bodies, making them dangerous hand-to-hand combatants.
Of course, as we all know, Super Skrull's abilities are far beyond this. See below:


Quote:
The Super-Skrull has a version of the Fantastic Four's superhuman abilities at the levels the team possessed when they began their careers. If the current Skrull ruler permits, a satellite can send an augmentation beam that ampliflies the Super-Skrull's abilities beyond the Fantastic Four's current levels. Kl'rt also possesses the Skrull's innate racial ability to shape-shift and the unique power of hypnosis. He is also an excellent hand-to-hand combatant and was extensively trained in warfare by the Skrull Empire. The Super-Skrull also has knowledge of and access to technology centuries ahead of conventional Earth science.
Finally:


Quote:
Kl'rt's power levels, however, exceeded the originals - he was stronger than Ben Grimm; had superior flight and greater pyrokinetic ability than the Human Torch; exercised better control of invisibility and telekinesis than Susan Richards; and maintained an ability to stretch beyond that of Mr. Fantastic. The newly-named "Super-Skrull" also retained his innate Skrullian shapeshifting abilities and strong hypnotic skills.
Alex Powers is no slouch either. To quote my opponent from a previous match, "Alex Power has all of the powers of Power Pack. That's gravity control, density control, energy absorbing and blasting, superspeed." The problem lies in the fact that Alex Power is not anywhere near as knowledgable about the use of his powers as is Super Skrull. Alex having the combined powers of all his siblings didn't last that long, and compared to the vast history of the Super Skrull, it's just a blip on the Marvel Radar.

First, Alex doesn't have the ability to really find out much about the Super Skrull. He probably can discover information regarding Skrulls; but, he's no genius in the research department. Second, Alex Power has no way to discover who the Super Skrull is when the Super Skrull can look like anybody or anything. It's quite possible that the Super Skrull can walk right up to Alex on the street, say hi while looking like a human, and hypnotize him. One Thing-style POP would end the contest quite quickly.

It sucks that this contest can be won so easily; but, it's a fact. (Also, many of Alex's powers are easily beaten by the combined powers of the Fantastic Four. Sue Storm alone can make sure that if Alex is a mist, he'd be dealt with.

Alex made it pretty far; but, he's outclassed here. Just thinking if it was Original Fantastic Four vs. Power Pack, I'd have to pick the Fantastic Four every time. Same here.

Winner = Super Skrull

 

[Harlekin]

OPENING COMMENTS: Alex Power vs Super-Skrull

First thing we need to do in this match is to look at the powers of Super-Skrull. They are varied, but pretty weak when you actually take a good look at them. They are described as follows on the site of Marvel Comics: "As a Skrull, Kl'rt is able to transform his body into any shape he wishes. In addition, he has been genetically altered to possess all the powers of the Fantastic Four. As such, he can elongate any part of his body, emit and control flames, use his control over flame to fly, become invisible, form invisible force fields, possess superhuman strength, and transform into a rocky hide/body armor. He is also capable of hypnosis."

A nuance must immediately be introduced. As Wikipedia notes, these are the powers of the Fantastic Four at their original levels, but slightly enhanced. This doesn't affect his powers of elasticity much, but the other powers are greatly affected by this. Take for example the Thing's strength and rocky hide. At best, the Thing could lift 5 to 10 tons in his original state. The Invisible Woman (or rather Girl) her powers did not extend farther than that; simple invisibility. Lastly, the Human Torch's output was considerably smaller than it is today. All in all, it is the Skrull's inventiveness and versatility that make him a formidable foe, but not necessarily his power.

Let's delve for a moment into the powers that Alex now possesses. Control of gravity (associated with the Zero-G identity), the power that Alex himself is most familiar with. It allows him to suspend his own gravity or that of others. He has used this power to lift objects that weigh many tons, including a submarine. Combined with his Destroyer powers, this makes for a lethal combination. Not only can he absorb mass amounts of energy, but he can also release it in a multitude of ways. Simply through blasts, or via small balls of energy that can detonate upon physical impact. His defensive capabilities are heightened by the ability to alter his density (Mass Master), which allow him to turn into a cloud, liquids or even throw up shields of hard air to protect himself. This power also allows him to increase his density, which has allowed him to knock powerhouses such as the Sphinx to the ground. For the record, the Sphinx's power is roughly equal to the current Thing. Lastly, there is the power of acceleration, a lesser used ability, but great in a pinch. There's also a little more obscure ability that allows Alex to heal himself.

Although there is more to it than just raw power, as you can see, Alex's powers either outclass those of the Skrull, or they are more versatile. Now, let's continue along this line of thought. Although it is true that Kl'rt is quite a bit more experienced than Alex, Alex's been in the game for a good 4 to 6 years as well by this point, so he's not exactly a rookie. A more important facet of Kl'rt's character however, is his warriors code. He's a Skrull, and a proud Skrull at that. He will be hesitant to engage a teen such as Alex in combat, but respecting Alex's right to battle, will make sure to fight him, and not just pull out the hypnosis card.

This is where Alex's advantages come in. He can literally switch between powers in the blink of an eye, and has been known to use them at the same time. The advantage of knowledge is not to be underestimated either, in fact, as Alex will know of the Super-Skrull's powers (Fantastic Four publicity pack or other such resources), he might even overestimate him, thinking they are up to snuff with the current day F4. That's when the **** hits the fan for our man Kl'rt. Alex can avoid, dodge or otherwise block anything the Skrull can throw at him. He won't hesitate to dispatch the Skrull quickly, knowing he's A) a villain and B) quite powerful. Alex, always the cleverest of the Pack, will focus his powers into either one finisher blow (which the Skrull surely cannot withstand) or he might even attempt to convert the Skrull into a liquid or gaseous state (something he can do upon physical contact).

Alex will surely have the image of the underdog in this match, but he has a better chance of beating the Skrull than many of his young compatriots, and probably a better chance than one would expect at first sight. He can do this, and he will.

WINNER=ALEX POWER

 

[Phaedrus45]

OPENING COMMENTS: Alex Power vs Super-Skrull

First thing we need to do in this match is to look at the powers of Super-Skrull. They are varied, but pretty weak when you actually take a good look at them. They are described as follows on the site of Marvel Comics: "As a Skrull, Kl'rt is able to transform his body into any shape he wishes. In addition, he has been genetically altered to possess all the powers of the Fantastic Four. As such, he can elongate any part of his body, emit and control flames, use his control over flame to fly, become invisible, form invisible force fields, possess superhuman strength, and transform into a rocky hide/body armor. He is also capable of hypnosis."

Just like the Fantastic Four's powers have gotten better as time has progressed, so has the Super Skrull. As such, below explains some of these upgrades:

In addition to the usual Skrull shapechanging abilities and his own hypnotic gaze, Kl'rt also possesses the powers of the Fantastic Four: Mr. Fantastic's stretching ability, the Thing's super strength, the Human Torch's command of flame, and the Invisible Woman's manifold invisibility and force-field-generating powers. Kl'rt can also form a reasonable approximation of Danny Rand's Iron Fist by combining his Torch and Thing capabilites, hence his impersonation of Rand when he had amnesia--editor Jeanne. Initially, his powers were supposed to match those of the FF, and they came from a beam that was directed from a satellite around the Skrull sun. He has since been augmented to the point where he doesn't need the beam and his powers are actually greater than those of the FF (for example, he can flame on in space, which the Torch cannot do; of course, no one should be able to, since space is a vacuum, but it's one of those cosmic, science-defying powers that most of the cosmic beings in the Marvel Universe have that we should just sit back and accept and not question if we know what's good for us, so there, nyah, nyah).

So, while the often wrong Wikipedia might state one thing, we have to remember that the Super Skrull is forever adapting, also.

A nuance must immediately be introduced. As Wikipedia notes, these are the powers of the Fantastic Four at their original levels, but slightly enhanced. This doesn't affect his powers of elasticity much, but the other powers are greatly affected by this. Take for example the Thing's strength and rocky hide. At best, the Thing could lift 5 to 10 tons in his original state. The Invisible Woman (or rather Girl) her powers did not extend farther than that; simple invisibility. Lastly, the Human Torch's output was considerably smaller than it is today. All in all, it is the Skrull's inventiveness and versatility that make him a formidable foe, but not necessarily his power.

Some of this is clearly wrong. As noted, these abilities are actually better than described above. He possesses more than just invisibility from Sue Storm; he also possesses the ability to make force field projections. His Human Torch ability is much better than suggested above. His combining of powers make him able to duplicate Iron Fist's powers.

Let's delve for a moment into the powers that Alex now possesses. Control of gravity (associated with the Zero-G identity), the power that Alex himself is most familiar with. It allows him to suspend his own gravity or that of others. He has used this power to lift objects that weigh many tons, including a submarine. Combined with his Destroyer powers, this makes for a lethal combination. Not only can he absorb mass amounts of energy, but he can also release it in a multitude of ways. Simply through blasts, or via small balls of energy that can detonate upon physical impact. His defensive capabilities are heightened by the ability to alter his density (Mass Master), which allow him to turn into a cloud, liquids or even throw up shields of hard air to protect himself. This power also allows him to increase his density, which has allowed him to knock powerhouses such as the Sphinx to the ground. For the record, the Sphinx's power is roughly equal to the current Thing. Lastly, there is the power of acceleration, a lesser used ability, but great in a pinch. There's also a little more obscure ability that allows Alex to heal himself.

All pretty good abilities; but, ones that the powers of the Fantastic Four can easily handle. Also, as pointed out, Alex is very young and very new to having all four of these powers. It was only for a short time, his siblings sure didn't approve, and he just doesn't have the experience in using them as Super Skrull has with his powers.

Although there is more to it than just raw power, as you can see, Alex's powers either outclass those of the Skrull, or they are more versatile. Now, let's continue along this line of thought. Although it is true that Kl'rt is quite a bit more experienced than Alex, Alex's been in the game for a good 4 to 6 years as well by this point, so he's not exactly a rookie. A more important facet of Kl'rt's character however, is his warriors code. He's a Skrull, and a proud Skrull at that. He will be hesitant to engage a teen such as Alex in combat, but respecting Alex's right to battle, will make sure to fight him, and not just pull out the hypnosis card.

Super Skrull has used his disquising powers quite frequently in the past...and, as he's had a tough time with some of the matches in this contest so far, coupled with the fact he doesn't know Alex Powers really, he will go for the method that works the best. I know it sucks; but, there is no way for Alex to know who or what is approaching him, until it's too late. It's been done before, and it will be done again. For this reason, I really don't need to go further in this debate. The match is won so easily, and Alex's lack of experience in using all these powers is his downfall.

Winner = Super Skrull

 

[wiegeabo]

Spiral vs Wallflower - House of M

Prep-time does not help either. It's doubtful that Wallflower from the M Universe would know anything about Spiral. Spiral might be able to learn about the 616 version of Wallflower through Mojoverse technology (which can peer into our universe). But she won't need any kind of advanced information if this doesn't pan out.

Location favors Wallflower more than Spiral because she can expose the populace to her pheromones and build herself a nice army.

It is those pheromones that has allowed Wallflower to advance this far, giving her the ability to instantly possess her opponents. And she is not afraid to use that ability any way she wants. This means she could do things like force her opponents to submit, fall asleep, or even kill themselves.

Spiral...is immune to posession.

That's right. Spiral can't be possessed. And this doesn't just apply to telepathic possession. Rouge was unable to steal Spiral's mind. So spiral is likely immune to all types of mental control (telepathic and otherwise).

This takes away Wallflower greatest, and most effective weapon. Wallflower cannot force Spiral to do anything.

This does not mean Wallflower is helpless. Unless she and Spiral happen to be in close proximity. At which point spiral can do any number of things like hit her with an energy blast, paralyze Wallflower, put her to sleep, use her swords if she's close enough, or just take away all her powers with a flick of her (six) wrists.

Now, if Wallflower gets a chance, she'll turn the people in Hell's Kitchen against Spiral. But once Spiral sees what she's up against, like a mass of hundreds or thousands of people coming after her, she can teleport to a safe location. Or, Spiral can turn herself invisible. Then, safe from the people, she can track down Wallflower and finish the fight.


With her main advantage neutralized, Wallflower doesn't have what it takes to beat someone with Spiral's powers.


Spiral wins

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Alex Power vs Super-Skrull

Just like the Fantastic Four's powers have gotten better as time has progressed, so has the Super Skrull. As such, below explains some of these upgrades:
[...]
So, while the often wrong Wikipedia might state one thing, we have to remember that the Super Skrull is forever adapting, also.

Source? The wrongness of Wikipedia is often exaggerated, especially in the are of comics, where there are literally dozens of fans working on these articles. I've read nothing yet, but besides what you posted that shows him on the level of the current FF. Even then, Alex has still downed foes with similar power levels.

All pretty good abilities; but, ones that the powers of the Fantastic Four can easily handle. Also, as pointed out, Alex is very young and very new to having all four of these powers. It was only for a short time, his siblings sure didn't approve, and he just doesn't have the experience in using them as Super Skrull has with his powers.

Not really. Alex has had each of the powers at least once already, becoming quite proficient in them. He showed little to no stumbling blocks while mastering all four, and used them excellently. At that time, Alex didn't so much care that they didn't approve and just stole them. I'd say he was with the Warriors for at least six months, giving him enough time to become even more proficient in the abilities already known to him.

As for your hypothesis that the FF's powers blow the Power Pack's out of the water, I also humbly disagree. Alex can be as strong and as durable as the Thing, can practically become intangible, has superspeed, and has the added abilities of energy release and absorbing. Trust me, those powers are quite up to snuff with those of the FF.

Super Skrull has used his disquising powers quite frequently in the past...and, as he's had a tough time with some of the matches in this contest so far, coupled with the fact he doesn't know Alex Powers really, he will go for the method that works the best. I know it sucks; but, there is no way for Alex to know who or what is approaching him, until it's too late. It's been done before, and it will be done again. For this reason, I really don't need to go further in this debate. The match is won so easily, and Alex's lack of experience in using all these powers is his downfall.

- He has used his disguising powers for subterfuge, but I don't recall him using them for battle. Even then, as I've mentioned, he's a Skrull, a very proud Skrull at that. They're big on the honour of combat.
- I'm pretty sure the rules have stated that the characters don't know it's a tournament, and exempting rematches, forget about their other matches. So there's no feeling of a 'tough time'.
- He doesn't know Alex, true, but this doesn't mean he'll go the shapeshifting route. It simply isn't his style. He's going to see a kid, and giving him the right to battle is what he would do. He'd recognize his folly after being beaten.
- The match can be won easily, true, but that holds true for a lot of characters in this thing. Too bad that for a lot of those characters, that isn't their style. They've got a personal code that makes sure they don't make it easy for themselves, and in most cases, that's their downfall.

WINNER=ALEX POWER

 

[JewishHobbit]

Spiral vs Wallflower - House of M

Prep-time does not help either. It's doubtful that Wallflower from the M Universe would know anything about Spiral. Spiral might be able to learn about the 616 version of Wallflower through Mojoverse technology (which can peer into our universe). But she won't need any kind of advanced information if this doesn't pan out.

Location favors Wallflower more than Spiral because she can expose the populace to her pheromones and build herself a nice army.

It is those pheromones that has allowed Wallflower to advance this far, giving her the ability to instantly possess her opponents. And she is not afraid to use that ability any way she wants. This means she could do things like force her opponents to submit, fall asleep, or even kill themselves.

Spiral...is immune to posession.

That's right. Spiral can't be possessed. And this doesn't just apply to telepathic possession. Rouge was unable to steal Spiral's mind. So spiral is likely immune to all types of mental control (telepathic and otherwise).

This takes away Wallflower greatest, and most effective weapon. Wallflower cannot force Spiral to do anything.

This does not mean Wallflower is helpless. Unless she and Spiral happen to be in close proximity. At which point spiral can do any number of things like hit her with an energy blast, paralyze Wallflower, put her to sleep, use her swords if she's close enough, or just take away all her powers with a flick of her (six) wrists.

Now, if Wallflower gets a chance, she'll turn the people in Hell's Kitchen against Spiral. But once Spiral sees what she's up against, like a mass of hundreds or thousands of people coming after her, she can teleport to a safe location. Or, Spiral can turn herself invisible. Then, safe from the people, she can track down Wallflower and finish the fight.


With her main advantage neutralized, Wallflower doesn't have what it takes to beat someone with Spiral's powers.


Spiral wins

In all this, the main thing that hurts my case is the proclamation that Spiral cannot be taken over by another character. I don't recall ever haring about this and the bio provided doesn't say anything about it. The Rogue mention is some proof that this could be possible... however, there's more proof that it IS possible for me. In that same bio, toward the bottom... it states:

Nocturne had possessed her and used her powers to open a portal back to Earth

So how is it possible that Spiral cannot be taken over by others... when Nocturne took her over and opened a portal back to Earth? Granted, she couldn't hold her long, but she did hold her... showing that she can be taken advantage of, even if for just a short time. And a short time is all that Wallflower needs, as she's always been shown to kill quickly (Kid Omega, the final battle of New X-Men: House of M). For me, this is obviously proof that Wallflower can still take her out quite easily.

The only other thing in this write up that I felt needed addressed is the mention that if there's peopel coming at her, Spiral can just teleport away and hide until she can get to Wallflower herself... but if Wallflower is hiding among the people (since she is very normal looking and doesn't stick out in the slightest) then Spiral will have a major problem with that. And if she tries to jump down and root through the people while invisible, as my above statement's prove, she will be taken by the pheremones and quickly killed by Wallflower or the legions of people who would be stabbing, shooting, beating her.

Winner - Wallflower (HoM)

 

[wiegeabo]

So how is it possible that Spiral cannot be taken over by others... when Nocturne took her over and opened a portal back to Earth? Granted, she couldn't hold her long, but she did hold her... showing that she can be taken advantage of, even if for just a short time. And a short time is all that Wallflower needs, as she's always been shown to kill quickly (Kid Omega, the final battle of New X-Men: House of M). For me, this is obviously proof that Wallflower can still take her out quite easily.

According to Spiral's Wiki bio:
Nocturne was fooled by Spiral into thinking Spiral had been possessed while Spiral remained in control.

That's how Spiral was 'possessed' by Nocturne. She wasn't. She let Nocturne 'take control'. So Wallflower's greatest asset is nullified.

The only other thing in this write up that I felt needed addressed is the mention that if there's peopel coming at her, Spiral can just teleport away and hide until she can get to Wallflower herself... but if Wallflower is hiding among the people (since she is very normal looking and doesn't stick out in the slightest) then Spiral will have a major problem with that. And if she tries to jump down and root through the people while invisible, as my above statement's prove, she will be taken by the pheremones and quickly killed by Wallflower or the legions of people who would be stabbing, shooting, beating her.

While invisible, all Spiral has to do is put everyone around her asleep, then take they're powers. If they don't have powers, nothing will happen. But if Wallflower is among the group, her control over everyone will fall. Heck, once she falls asleep her control will fall and Spiral will win. And this will all happen much faster if Spiral can use her powers to locate Wallflower (by tracking anyone with a superpower).

It may take some time, but Sprial can remain safe from the people and take her opponent out.


Spiral wins

 

[JewishHobbit]

According to Spiral's Wiki bio:
Nocturne was fooled by Spiral into thinking Spiral had been possessed while Spiral remained in control.

That's how Spiral was 'possessed' by Nocturne. She wasn't. She let Nocturne 'take control'. So Wallflower's greatest asset is nullified.

And in defense against that, I head over to Marvel.com where in the powers section it states that she is immune to certain types of possession.... meaning not all!

And now there's no proof that Wallflower's powers cannot handle her. But I can imagine you saying "What proof do we have that says they will?". There really isn't any, it's up to the voters, but here's something to think about. The only two people who she's resisted that I'm aware of is Nocturne and Rogue (as that's all the bios indicate). Both have been resisted before. Colossus is also resistant to Rogue's powers, as has Magneto, as has others, showing they aren't absolute. Nocturne has been resisted in the Exiles book a few times. Wallflower has overcome everyone from Kid Omega, to Synch, to the Cuckoos. Only Mercury resisted because the pheremones can't get into her... and that's not an advantage that Spiral has. When Marvel themselves say that Spiral is only resistant to certain types of possession, that leaves a lot of room for the unusual forms of possession to fit in there and work. Wallflower's method is very much strange and I would think would fit in the criteria of what would work. Plus she has a better track record in possessions than the others so far. But really, it's up to the voters at this point, as we can't prove one way or the other.

While invisible, all Spiral has to do is put everyone around her asleep, then take they're powers. If they don't have powers, nothing will happen. But if Wallflower is among the group, her control over everyone will fall. Heck, once she falls asleep her control will fall and Spiral will win. And this will all happen much faster if Spiral can use her powers to locate Wallflower (by tracking anyone with a superpower).

It may take some time, but Sprial can remain safe from the people and take her opponent out.

Again, this all hinges on whether or not Laurie's pheremones will work on Spiral or not. If her pheremones do not work, then it's all over and Spiral has it... if they do, then Spiral doesn't stand a chance. Especially since she will expect them not to work and would walk right into it and lose. Up to the voters to decide if Laurie's unique possession would be able to over come Spiral, being of those who Spiral isn't resistant to.

winner - Wallflower

 

[wiegeabo]

And in defense against that, I head over to Marvel.com where in the powers section it states that she is immune to certain types of possession.... meaning not all!

And now there's no proof that Wallflower's powers cannot handle her. But I can imagine you saying "What proof do we have that says they will?". There really isn't any, it's up to the voters, but here's something to think about. The only two people who she's resisted that I'm aware of is Nocturne and Rogue (as that's all the bios indicate). Both have been resisted before. Colossus is also resistant to Rogue's powers, as has Magneto, as has others, showing they aren't absolute. Nocturne has been resisted in the Exiles book a few times. Wallflower has overcome everyone from Kid Omega, to Synch, to the Cuckoos. Only Mercury resisted because the pheremones can't get into her... and that's not an advantage that Spiral has. When Marvel themselves say that Spiral is only resistant to certain types of possession, that leaves a lot of room for the unusual forms of possession to fit in there and work. Wallflower's method is very much strange and I would think would fit in the criteria of what would work. Plus she has a better track record in possessions than the others so far. But really, it's up to the voters at this point, as we can't prove one way or the other.

Colussus is immune to Rogue because of his armor. Rogue has to touch someone skin to drain them, which is why she wears gloves since she can't drain through clothing. When he's armored up, Piotr doesn't have any exposed skin.

And Magneto is immune because...he's an uber badass? I'm not sure on this one, unless he keeps a skin-tight magnetic shield around himself. Magneto's weird because he powers you wouldn't think he should have like strong telepathic resistance.

Again, this all hinges on whether or not Laurie's pheremones will work on Spiral or not. If her pheremones do not work, then it's all over and Spiral has it... if they do, then Spiral doesn't stand a chance. Especially since she will expect them not to work and would walk right into it and lose. Up to the voters to decide if Laurie's unique possession would be able to over come Spiral, being of those who Spiral isn't resistant to.

I agree that this is up to the voters. If Spiral can resist, the match is hers. Otherwise, Wallflower probably takes. Marvel.com bios are as prone to error as any other bio site. And since there is evidence that Spiral can resist possession, as well different types of possession, and none that her immunity is not total, I argue that Spiral does have total immunity. And that means the fight is hers.


Spiral wins

 

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: Alex Power vs Super-Skrull
- He doesn't know Alex, true, but this doesn't mean he'll go the shapeshifting route. It simply isn't his style. He's going to see a kid, and giving him the right to battle is what he would do. He'd recognize his folly after being beaten.
- The match can be won easily, true, but that holds true for a lot of characters in this thing. Too bad that for a lot of those characters, that isn't their style. They've got a personal code that makes sure they don't make it easy for themselves, and in most cases, that's their downfall.

I'm confident enough in my debate to let it stand as is. I'll only respond to this, especially starting tomorrow I'll set my focus on the other matches I haven't gotten to. Super Skrull has attacked before without worrying about honor. Plus, it would be idiotic for Super Skrull to go out and fight someone who he knows nothing about. Skrull's use disguise all the time, and Super Skrull's bio shows him doing this, impersonating even Danny Rand for quite some time. I know it sucks to lose in such a crappy way; but, while some matches are not beneficial for me because of the population (Tana Nile vs. Hellstrom, for example), this one is; just as any other opponent in this competition will take what they've been given, so will I.

Winner = Super Skrull

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Alex Power vs Super-Skrull

Super Skrull has attacked before without worrying about honor. Plus, it would be idiotic for Super Skrull to go out and fight someone who he knows nothing about.

Alex Power is a 14-year old kid and Super-Skrull would probably think he's got nothing to lose. Besides pride, he's also quite the arrogant little Skrull. Most of Super-Skrull's battles have been head-on, and it's his preferred tactic.

Skrull's use disguise all the time, and Super Skrull's bio shows him doing this, impersonating even Danny Rand for quite some time.

And if you would read the information preceding that, you'd find that was during a time in which Super-Skrull had first been brainwashed and formed a friendship with Iron Fist (in two other guises). Also pointed out was that the Skrull was simply doing this to use the Rand Corporation. It is not common for the Skrull to use disguises in battle.

I know it sucks to lose in such a crappy way; but, while some matches are not beneficial for me because of the population (Tana Nile vs. Hellstrom, for example), this one is; just as any other opponent in this competition will take what they've been given, so will I.

And I dig that, but it is at the cost of your character's actual personality. Super-Skrull is not known for disguising himself and take out his opponents in this manner. He's known for direct confrontations, and it's what he does best. When he does use a disguise, it is often to serve a purpose seperate from battle. And as long as he engages Alex in direct combat, there's a good seven to ten chance of him underestimating Alex and getting his butt kicked.

WINNER=ALEX POWER

 

[Phaedrus45]

Pluto Vs. Korath:

Ok, so much of what I say is a repeat of some stuff that I brought up before when Pluto faced another one of my characters. First, some points I brought up previously that shows that having this location in Hell's Kitchen greatly effects Pluto's powers.

*Pluto is actually quite screwed by having to go to leave his realm of Hades. I quote the following:

"Avengers #283- Photon blasts through all of Pluto’s war machines. Pluto offers a year of peace in Elysium for anyone who slays an Avenger. She-Hulk tries to attack Pluto. But Pluto blasts her with Hadean fire. Pluto blasts a large chunk of rock above the Avengers. Thor catches it, but is in excruciating pain doing so. Thor throws the rock into the hole in the bridge. The Avengers run over. Thor says that Pluto couldn’t do more because his power is limited outside of Hades."

In many of Pluto's appearances, he stays in Hades, and this explains it. From what Thor says, many magical properties of Olympus and most of Pluto's powers are derived from Pluto's proximity with Hades. Thus, he can be defeated when outside his realm, very likely.

*Like I said, it's very important to look at the appearances of Pluto in Marvel Comics. Voters may wonder why, if Pluto is so damn powerful, why his powers are ineffective on Earth. From one of Pluto's most recent appearances, the following explains.:

"Dr. Strange tells Pluto that he is destined to fail as his covenant with Zeus allows him to only hold sway over the dominion of the dead."

Zeus has a covenant on Pluto not allowing him dominion anywhere except Hades. And, by further looking at appearances, you will notice that Pluto is constantly using his hordes to attack, or needing assistance from other people in doing his bidding. For someone who is supposedly so powerful in the use of magic, the following really is revealing:

"Pluto says that if she is indeed Lorelei that she knows who he is because he knows that she is her sister’s superior. Pluto says that he needs a spell. He wants her, as the Enchantress has done in the past, to create a Valkyrie with the power over the dead."

If Pluto is such a powerful magic user, why does he need to constantly go to either The Enchantress or Lorelei for spells? The answer is simple; Pluto is not as powerful with magic as my opponent believes. Couple this with having to fight on Earth and not in his own realm, this battle continues to make the voters possibly rethink their original votes.

Now, of course, my opponent still will believe otherwise. But, they are in Hell's Kitchen, not Hades. He isn't going to be as powerful.

Now, Pluto still has some neat things to keep himself from being seen; but, this is Korath The Pursuer, and there is a reason he has that last name. Here is his bio:

Korath is a brilliant geneticist. After implementing the Pursuer template on himself, Korath gained enhanced strength and durability to an unknown degree, uses full body armor, uses jet propelled boots which allow him to fly, and has increased advance scanners that can pick up anomalous brain patters or power levels. He also employs the use of two "beta batons," which fire very powerful energy blasts capable of knocking out an Eternal, like Sersi. He also claims to be trained in the ways of Ancient Kree.

To point out, Korath "has increased advance scanners that can pick up anomalous brain patters or power levels;" Invisibility won't matter. He's taken out Eternals. If in Hades, I'd give the battle to Pluto; but, again, he's not Hades. I stand by my assertion that Pluto's battles take place in his realm for a reason. Korath won't have a problem taking out Pluto.

Winner = Korath The Pursuer

 

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: Alex Power vs Super-Skrull

Alex Power is a 14-year old kid and Super-Skrull would probably think he's got nothing to lose. Besides pride, he's also quite the arrogant little Skrull. Most of Super-Skrull's battles have been head-on, and it's his preferred tactic.

Actually, this is incorrect. Just from my research, I've discovered two early appearances by the Super Skrull where he used deception in appearance to attack the Fantastic Four: First, he disguised himself as the Invincible Man, and second, he disguised himself as Dr. Franklin Storm.

And I dig that, but it is at the cost of your character's actual personality. Super-Skrull is not known for disguising himself and take out his opponents in this manner. He's known for direct confrontations, and it's what he does best. When he does use a disguise, it is often to serve a purpose seperate from battle. And as long as he engages Alex in direct combat, there's a good seven to ten chance of him underestimating Alex and getting his butt kicked.

This doesn't go against my character's personality. As I've shown above, he did it twice in early appearances when attacking the Fantastic Four. He's an experienced fighter, and it would be completely stupid of him to go into this match not knowing his opponent. Again, it sucks for Alex to be taken out so easily; but, it could and will happen.

Winner = Super Skrull

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Pluto Vs. Korath: - Rebuttal

I am going to do this in 2 stages because quoting you does not show me the big quote you used (at SHH not you )

Ok, so much of what I say is a repeat of some stuff that I brought up before when Pluto faced another one of my characters. First, some points I brought up previously that shows that having this location in Hell's Kitchen greatly effects Pluto's powers.

Several of your points are disputable and in the fiollowing post I will explain why. One thing to note is that He is more powerful in Hades to the point where he is invincible there. In the outside world his powers as I had listed them are still valid. He is still a class 75, controls magic blasts, can weaken with a touch, regenerates, has a magical invisible helmet, wields adamantine axes and wears body armour as well as being one of the more durable Olympians.

To point out, Korath "has increased advance scanners that can pick up anomalous brain patters or power levels;" Invisibility won't matter. He's taken out Eternals. If in Hades, I'd give the battle to Pluto; but, again, he's not Hades. I stand by my assertion that Pluto's battles take place in his realm for a reason. Korath won't have a problem taking out Pluto.

He took out Sersi with his rods and Sersi is no Pluto wearing an invisible Helmet. Plus let us not forget she got almost blind sided.

Regarding his scanners, you again are basing the invisibility on Science whereas Pluto's invisibility is completely MAGICAL. Scanners cannot detect magic especially kree scanners. Plus even if they could pick him up you are assuming he has hand held ones which he has to take the time to consult. Now this fight could be over very quickly given Pluto can still teleport himself behind Korath and touch him which will automatically weaken him. Not to mention he is much stronger then Korath, as well as being incredibly faster.

Winner = Pluto - the God of Death

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Avengers #283- Photon blasts through all of Pluto’s war machines. Pluto offers a year of peace in Elysium for anyone who slays an Avenger. She-Hulk tries to attack Pluto. But Pluto blasts her with Hadean fire. Pluto blasts a large chunk of rock above the Avengers. Thor catches it, but is in excruciating pain doing so. Thor throws the rock into the hole in the bridge. The Avengers run over. Thor says that Pluto couldn’t do more because his power is limited outside of Hades."

First off, Pluto was beating the combinned might of the Avengers there. Second he obviously downed the She-Hulk with one blast whereas Korath does not have her durability. PLus let us not forget he puts Thor in excruciating pain.

Given all that, Thor stated something like Pluto cannot hurt us more then he has done or if you have the comic please show the full page. First off, Thor is making an assumption based partly on hope because the Avengers as a group was on the rope against Pluto. Second, Thor is not known in his expertise of Olympian Gods so really what he says is not necessarily fact.

I think the most important part of that whole quote is the feats that Pluto did while on Earth.

In many of Pluto's appearances, he stays in Hades, and this explains it. From what Thor says, many magical properties of Olympus and most of Pluto's powers are derived from Pluto's proximity with Hades. Thus, he can be defeated when outside his realm, very likely.

First he stays mostly in Hades just Zeus and Apollo stay mostly in Olympia because that is their home. Second, they do not have comics with them as central characters therefore he does not appear too much. Last but not least, your last statement is your wish and not very accurate regarding this battle. Can he be defeated, yes Pluto is not the Living Tribunal but the question here is can Korath defeat him and that is highly unlikely given that the Avengers united had a hard time defeating him, and they did not even do that physically without help from other Olympians.

*Like I said, it's very important to look at the appearances of Pluto in Marvel Comics. Voters may wonder why, if Pluto is so damn powerful, why his powers are ineffective on Earth. From one of Pluto's most recent appearances, the following explains.:

"Dr. Strange tells Pluto that he is destined to fail as his covenant with Zeus allows him to only hold sway over the dominion of the dead."

Yes Dr. Strange, the powerful version of him, told him he will not conquer the whole Earth because of the convenant. Yet suprisingly, this debate is about whether Pluto can defeat Korath not the whole earth.

Zeus has a covenant on Pluto not allowing him dominion anywhere except Hades. And, by further looking at appearances, you will notice that Pluto is constantly using his hordes to attack, or needing assistance from other people in doing his bidding. For someone who is supposedly so powerful in the use of magic, the following really is revealing:

"Pluto says that if she is indeed Lorelei that she knows who he is because he knows that she is her sister’s superior. Pluto says that he needs a spell. He wants her, as the Enchantress has done in the past, to create a Valkyrie with the power over the dead."

As I stated before he does not ahve dominion over the Norse Gods and needed a Norse Goddess to help him there. What that has to do with his abilities against a Kree is next to nothing. Can he take the Kree down to Hades and punish him for eternity, he cannot unless given permission. Can he defeat Korath, easily.

If Pluto is such a powerful magic user, why does he need to constantly go to either The Enchantress or Lorelei for spells? The answer is simple; Pluto is not as powerful with magic as my opponent believes. Couple this with having to fight on Earth and not in his own realm, this battle continues to make the voters possibly rethink their original votes.

First off, my quote on Pluto's magical powers come from Marvel and not my own comments like my esteemed opponent would like to indicate. Second, the "constantly" was once in one scheme to conquer the Earth. And third, and I hope I can say this for the last time, he needed a Norse Goddess to place spells on a Norse Goddess. Olympains do not have dominion over Asgardians and vice-versa.


This whole discussion is pretty pointless.

Pluto is physically far stronger (class 75), far more durable, has regenerative abilties , wears armour, is a seasonned warrior (he fought the Titans before Korath's ancestors existed), is incredibly faster (Korath has average Kree speed which is roughly human whereas Pluto has Olympian speed), is invisible, and has adamantine axes. Of course, last but not least he has magical blasts which are powerful enough to put She Hulk down. Also note the rock throwing which Thor had a hard time with meaning Korath would be crushed.

Korath is simply outclassed in this battle.

Winner - Pluto the brother of Zeus

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Alex Power vs Super-Skrull

Actually, this is incorrect. Just from my research, I've discovered two early appearances by the Super Skrull where he used deception in appearance to attack the Fantastic Four: First, he disguised himself as the Invincible Man, and second, he disguised himself as Dr. Franklin Storm.

Those are exactly the same appearance, and after that, he only disguised himself when he was brainwashed into doing so. Since then, he's engaged his opponents directly, preferring to fight them without subterfuge.

This doesn't go against my character's personality. As I've shown above, he did it twice in early appearances when attacking the Fantastic Four. He's an experienced fighter, and it would be completely stupid of him to go into this match not knowing his opponent. Again, it sucks for Alex to be taken out so easily; but, it could and will happen.

As I've pointed out, he hasn't used disguises since, except for the short time he was brainwashed, and the time in which he impersonated Danny Rand only to gain control of the Rand Corporation (for money). In the multitude of his appearances, he fights his opponent in his normal form, whether he knows them or not.

WINNER=ALEX POWER

 

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: Alex Power vs Super-Skrull

Those are exactly the same appearance, and after that, he only disguised himself when he was brainwashed into doing so. Since then, he's engaged his opponents directly, preferring to fight them without subterfuge.


As I've pointed out, he hasn't used disguises since, except for the short time he was brainwashed, and the time in which he impersonated Danny Rand only to gain control of the Rand Corporation (for money). In the multitude of his appearances, he fights his opponent in his normal form, whether he knows them or not.

WINNER=ALEX POWER

For me, I've shown him disguising himself as two different people on two different occassions. I'll let this match rest now. It will be just repeating myself.

 

[Phaedrus45]

First off, Pluto was beating the combinned might of the Avengers there. Second he obviously downed the She-Hulk with one blast whereas Korath does not have her durability. PLus let us not forget he puts Thor in excruciating pain.

Given all that, Thor stated something like Pluto cannot hurt us more then he has done or if you have the comic please show the full page. First off, Thor is making an assumption based partly on hope because the Avengers as a group was on the rope against Pluto. Second, Thor is not known in his expertise of Olympian Gods so really what he says is not necessarily fact.

History doesn't show Pluto being on Earth exerting great power. Thor would be pretty knowledgable about various Gods, even Olympic gods. After all, he's faced Hercules enough times, and there is a rivalry between both. I believe what Thor said. Even you bio states he's less powerful, thus backing up Thor's statement.

First he stays mostly in Hades just Zeus and Apollo stay mostly in Olympia because that is their home. Second, they do not have comics with them as central characters therefore he does not appear too much. Last but not least, your last statement is your wish and not very accurate regarding this battle. Can he be defeated, yes Pluto is not the Living Tribunal but the question here is can Korath defeat him and that is highly unlikely given that the Avengers united had a hard time defeating him, and they did not even do that physically without help from other Olympians.

Pluto stays in Hades for a reason. We know he'd love to take control of Midgard; he tried to have his realm invade it once before. (Also showing he need Hades on Midgard in order to be powerful.) Pluto doesn't stay in Hades because he wants to.

Yes Dr. Strange, the powerful version of him, told him he will not conquer the whole Earth because of the convenant. Yet suprisingly, this debate is about whether Pluto can defeat Korath not the whole earth.

But, that covenant keeps him from being absolutely powerful, like he is in Hades. If this tournament was in Hades, Pluto would probably win the entire thing. It's not, and for that reason I believe the vast majority of heroes left in this contest can defeat him when the match is away from that location.

As I stated before he does not ahve dominion over the Norse Gods and needed a Norse Goddess to help him there. What that has to do with his abilities against a Kree is next to nothing. Can he take the Kree down to Hades and punish him for eternity, he cannot unless given permission. Can he defeat Korath, easily.

And, from what I read, he needed to get spells from the Enchantress. Is he so not powerful that his Oympian spells don't work on Norse folk? Nope...he's just not all that in the spell department.

First off, my quote on Pluto's magical powers come from Marvel and not my own comments like my esteemed opponent would like to indicate. Second, the "constantly" was once in one scheme to conquer the Earth. And third, and I hope I can say this for the last time, he needed a Norse Goddess to place spells on a Norse Goddess. Olympains do not have dominion over Asgardians and vice-versa.

That just seems silly to me. Would Dr. Strange need special Norse spells to work on a Norse god?

Pluto is physically far stronger (class 75), far more durable, has regenerative abilties , wears armour, is a seasonned warrior (he fought the Titans before Korath's ancestors existed), is incredibly faster (Korath has average Kree speed which is roughly human whereas Pluto has Olympian speed), is invisible, and has adamantine axes. Of course, last but not least he has magical blasts which are powerful enough to put She Hulk down. Also note the rock throwing which Thor had a hard time with meaning Korath would be crushed.

Korath is simply outclassed in this battle.

If it was in Hades, I'd agree. It's not, so (of course) I don't. As I've said, from my research, I would venture a majority of the characters remaining have a good chance of defeating Pluto when Pluto isn't in his home base. Location sometimes determines a battle, and Pluto isn't how he appears in the bio when out of his home.


That said, go ahead and rebutt. For me, we'll just go around and around and bore the readers at this point. Good luck.

Winner = Korath

 

[Ahura Mazda]

History doesn't show Pluto being on Earth exerting great power. Thor would be pretty knowledgable about various Gods, even Olympic gods. After all, he's faced Hercules enough times, and there is a rivalry between both. I believe what Thor said. Even you bio states he's less powerful, thus backing up Thor's statement.

My bio says he is more powerful in Hades. He did do all those feats you stated on Earth.

Pluto stays in Hades for a reason. We know he'd love to take control of Midgard; he tried to have his realm invade it once before. (Also showing he need Hades on Midgard in order to be powerful.) Pluto doesn't stay in Hades because he wants to.

There is a difference between more powerful and not powerful. Pluto is more powerful in Hades but remains powerful on Earth which is underlined by the feats YOU stated whereas he knocked out the She Hulk with one blast, threw a rock to cover all of the Avengers which Caused Thor allot of pain.

But, that covenant keeps him from being absolutely powerful, like he is in Hades. If this tournament was in Hades, Pluto would probably win the entire thing. It's not, and for that reason I believe the vast majority of heroes left in this contest can defeat him when the match is away from that location.

Again there is a big difference between absolute power which would mean Pluto is like the Living Tribunal as he would be in hades and what he is on Earth, which is just very powerful. Enough that for the Avengers as a group he was a handful.

And, from what I read, he needed to get spells from the Enchantress. Is he so not powerful that his Oympian spells don't work on Norse folk? Nope...he's just not all that in the spell department.

OK lets look at this again. Olympians cannot affect other deities the same way as they could affect Earthlings. You have different pantheons all with one skyfather. Each one is effectiovely equal in power more or less yet they cannot spell each other. In a similar way , Hela is prevalent over Norse gods and Pluto is prevalent over Olympians.

That just seems silly to me. Would Dr. Strange need special Norse spells to work on a Norse god?

That is a good question. Lets look at Loki battling Strange. Funnily enough Strange was never able to spell Loki even though they had it out many times. Also, lets not forget in the reigning we see Loki wearing the eye of agomento indicating he had defeated Strange. Therfore maybe the answer to your question is yes.

If it was in Hades, I'd agree. It's not, so (of course) I don't. As I've said, from my research, I would venture a majority of the characters remaining have a good chance of defeating Pluto when Pluto isn't in his home base. Location sometimes determines a battle, and Pluto isn't how he appears in the bio when out of his home.

You say from your research which leads everybody to believe you, yet from your research you talk about feats which show Pluto decimating the Avengers on Earth.

Plus in this whole debate almost nothing is said about Korath and pretty much this whole battle is centerred around Pluto.

Pluto remains a class 75, he still can shoot magical blasts, he can still weaken with a touch, he can generate shields, he can regenerate, he still has a helmet, he still has adamantine axes, he remains immortal, he is still an Olympian and the brother of Zeus.

There is not much more to be said but I will end this that Pluto remains an Olympian wherever he is and he is a first generation Olympian, and among the three most powerful (with Neptune and Zeus). Nothing changes that. Korath is a an improved Kree and nothing more.

Winner = Pluto

 

[Phaedrus45]

My bio says he is more powerful in Hades. He did do all those feats you stated on Earth.

I do have to respond again, it seems. First, you underline MORE in the bio. This does not mean he's MORE powerful than your stats say; it means simply that Pluto is more powerful in Hades than in other realms. The stress on MORE is key to note here in how you use it.

There is a difference between more powerful and not powerful. Pluto is more powerful in Hades but remains powerful on Earth which is underlined by the feats YOU stated whereas he knocked out the She Hulk with one blast, threw a rock to cover all of the Avengers which Caused Thor allot of pain.

The thing is when you look at the appearances of Pluto outside of the realm of Hades, you don't see the vast powers of which you speak. When fighting starts, he darts out of the area. The only exception is when he brought Hades to Midgard.

Again there is a big difference between absolute power which would mean Pluto is like the Living Tribunal as he would be in hades and what he is on Earth, which is just very powerful. Enough that for the Avengers as a group he was a handful.

Again, I'm going to believe Thor and what I've seen in his various appearances on Earth.

OK lets look at this again. Olympians cannot affect other deities the same way as they could affect Earthlings. You have different pantheons all with one skyfather. Each one is effectiovely equal in power more or less yet they cannot spell each other. In a similar way , Hela is prevalent over Norse gods and Pluto is prevalent over Olympians.

Show me where it says that Norse Gods are effected by magic from an Olympian then I might believe this. Otherwise, this is just your idea of why he has to get spells from other gods, and I simply don't by that theory.

That is a good question. Lets look at Loki battling Strange. Funnily enough Strange was never able to spell Loki even though they had it out many times. Also, lets not forget in the reigning we see Loki wearing the eye of agomento indicating he had defeated Strange. Therfore maybe the answer to your question is yes.

Loki's near defeats of Strange aren't because Dr. Strange's magic doesn't work on Norse Gods...it's because in the few times they've fought, it's that Loki is the stronger of the two when it comes to magic use. Again, I looked this over throughout and nobody has said Strange looses because his spells don't work on a Norse God.

You say from your research which leads everybody to believe you, yet from your research you talk about feats which show Pluto decimating the Avengers on Earth.

I've looked at the appearances. The only time I've seen him with great power on Earth is when he brought Hades to Midgard. As you say, the best proof is the actual comics. For this reason, I ask for what you've seen that disproves that.

Plus in this whole debate almost nothing is said about Korath and pretty much this whole battle is centerred around Pluto.

That's because much of the argument always stems on how great and powerful Pluto is. I don't buy it. He's greatly diminished outside his realm, and Korath is powerful in his own right. As his bio states:

After implementing the Pursuer template on himself, Korath gained enhanced strength and durability to an unknown degree, uses full body armor, uses jet propelled boots which allow him to fly, and has increased advance scanners that can pick up anomalous brain patters or power levels. He also employs the use of two "beta batons," which fire very powerful energy blasts capable of knocking out an Eternal, like Sersi. He also claims to be trained in the ways of Ancient Kree

If Korath can knock out an Eternal, like Sersi, with his powerful batons, he can keep out of Pluto's reach and hurt him severely, especially since he's weakened being on Midgard.

I believe this enough in my research on Pluto's character that it greatly effects my votes, if Pluto gets someone to debate against him. I might not get the votes to sway others to my side of thinking, as I barely missed defeating him before. But, if I lose, which is a good possibility, then the next opponent can very likely win my vote if they are strong enough; for, I believe in this that much and I'm not trying to just win a match to win the match. I 100% believe he doesn't have the powers he has in Hades, and that includes powers and other abilities.

Winner = Korath

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I do have to respond again, it seems. First, you underline MORE in the bio. This does not mean he's MORE powerful than your stats say; it means simply that Pluto is more powerful in Hades than in other realms. The stress on MORE is key to note here in how you use it.

But take that exactly. He is more powerful meaning greater then what is stated. It does not say that his powers are only effective in Hades.

The thing is when you look at the appearances of Pluto outside of the realm of Hades, you don't see the vast powers of which you speak. When fighting starts, he darts out of the area. The only exception is when he brought Hades to Midgard.

Let me use your quote:

Avengers #283- Photon blasts through all of Pluto’s war machines. Pluto offers a year of peace in Elysium for anyone who slays an Avenger. She-Hulk tries to attack Pluto. But Pluto blasts her with Hadean fire. Pluto blasts a large chunk of rock above the Avengers. Thor catches it, but is in excruciating pain doing so. Thor throws the rock into the hole in the bridge. The Avengers run over. Thor says that Pluto couldn’t do more because his power is limited outside of Hades."

Now all the above happenned on Earth. Therefore it means he can do those things stated in his power ratings even when his is not in Hades.

Pluto is an Olympian. He is the son of Cronus and Rhea. He is the brother of Zeus. He was all these things before he was the ruler of the Underworld. He fought the Titans before he was the ruler of the Underworld. He had his helmet before he was the ruler of the Underworld. He was a class 75 before he was the ruler of the Underworld. etc., etc.

This is his bio on the marvel directory website. the same as is in your favorite handbooks:

Strength Level: Pluto is one of the strongest of the Olympian gods, and can lift (press) 70 tens. Among the Olympian gods, his level of strength is matched only by those of Neptune and Ares, and exceeded only by those of Zeus and Hercules.

Known Superhuman Powers:Pluto possesses the conventional physical attributes of an Olympian god. Like all Olympians he is immortal he has not aged since reaching adulthood and cannot die by any conventional means. He is immune to all Earthly diseases and is resistant to conventional injury. If wounded, his godly life force would enable him to recover with superhuman speed; it would take an injury of such magnitude that it dispersed a major portion of his bodily molecules to cause him physical death. Even then, it may be possible for Zeus or a god of equal power to revive him. Pluto possesses superhuman strength and his Olympian metabolism gives him far greater than human endurance at all physical activities. (Olympian flesh and bone is about three times as dense as similar human tissue, contributing to the Olympians' superhuman strength and weight.)

Pluto's extraordinary energy-wielding abilities are equaled among the Olympians only by those of Neptune, and surpassed only by those of Zeus. Only a few of Pluto's many energy-wielding powers have as yet been depicted. Pluto can fire powerful force belts from his hands, erect powerful, nearly impenetrable force fields, and nearly impenetrable force fields, and create interdimensional apertures to enable him to transport himself from one dimension to another. He can weaken an opponent's strength with his touch. Pluto can create mystical flame and sheathe himself with such flame while himself remaining unharmed. Pluto can create weapons of mystical flame, such as a spear or sword of fire, which can paralyze an opponent, it has been alleged that Pluto is less powerful on Earth than he is in his own realm of Hades.

Weapons: Pluto has a helmet of invisibility made for him by the Cyclopes, one-eyed giants who were trapped in Tartarus along with Pluto by Cronus. Using it, Pluto can make himself magically invisible even to other Olympians.

Pluto wields a large battleaxe through which he can project and focus his force bolts (although he is fully capable of projecting the bolts without it). The battleaxe is made of enchanted adamantine and is virtually indestructible. One of the axes was smashed by a spell of the Norns in recent years but Pluto has others. All of them were constructed for Pluto by the Cyclopes.

Again, I'm going to believe Thor and what I've seen in his various appearances on Earth.

This was the same Thor who was put in "excruciating pain".

Show me where it says that Norse Gods are effected by magic from an Olympian then I might believe this. Otherwise, this is just your idea of why he has to get spells from other gods, and I simply don't by that theory.

You know what I was wrong but luckily I came across an excerpt of what actually happenned in the Defender's comic.

"Lorlei bonded a mortal (after Pluto asked her to), Samantha Parrington, who had previously been bonded to a valkyrie, to become the valkyrie once again, and to obey Pluto and Lorelei's orders. Pluto wielded the residual magic to trap Lorelei in a seperate Valkyrie form, with no memory and unable to speak.."

Just to note, Pluto was not defeated by the Defenders. Strange was not able to defeat him, fighting him directly. Pluto fled when Zeus' head appeared above him and then he and Lorelei TELEPORTED away. It was his fear of Zeus, the skyfather that made him flee the scene.

Loki's near defeats of Strange aren't because Dr. Strange's magic doesn't work on Norse Gods...it's because in the few times they've fought, it's that Loki is the stronger of the two when it comes to magic use. Again, I looked this over throughout and nobody has said Strange looses because his spells don't work on a Norse God.

As I stated earlier I was wrong about that and it looks more like Pluto went to Lorelei in order to trick her and make her his slave as well. Lets not forget she was powerful in her own right.

I've looked at the appearances. The only time I've seen him with great power on Earth is when he brought Hades to Midgard. As you say, the best proof is the actual comics. For this reason, I ask for what you've seen that disproves that.

Given his battle against the Avenger's happenned while on earth and that he was still able to knock out the She Hulk and cause excruciating pain to Thor, I still beleive he is powerful. No matter what he is a first generation Olympian and among the three most powerful ones, albeit a step below Zeus.

Plus I have even quoted the Marvel Directory which is what is written in the handbooks. Why do you not take a look yourself and then quote it here as you do this often for all your other matches.

That's because much of the argument always stems on how great and powerful Pluto is. I don't buy it. He's greatly diminished outside his realm, and Korath is powerful in his own right. As his bio states:

After implementing the Pursuer template on himself, Korath gained enhanced strength and durability to an unknown degree, uses full body armor, uses jet propelled boots which allow him to fly, and has increased advance scanners that can pick up anomalous brain patters or power levels. He also employs the use of two "beta batons," which fire very powerful energy blasts capable of knocking out an Eternal, like Sersi. He also claims to be trained in the ways of Ancient Kree

If Korath can knock out an Eternal, like Sersi, with his powerful batons, he can keep out of Pluto's reach and hurt him severely, especially since he's weakened being on Midgard.

Just one thing, Midgard is called that by the Asgardians not the Olympians. And Sersi was blind sidede and after a full blast she was knocked out. She was not invisible, she is not as durable, she is not as strong, she is not as fast, and she is not the Olympian God of Death.

I believe this enough in my research on Pluto's character that it greatly effects my votes, if Pluto gets someone to debate against him. I might not get the votes to sway others to my side of thinking, as I barely missed defeating him before. But, if I lose, which is a good possibility, then the next opponent can very likely win my vote if they are strong enough; for, I believe in this that much and I'm not trying to just win a match to win the match. I 100% believe he doesn't have the powers he has in Hades, and that includes powers and other abilities.

You know I really believe that your research is highly lacking and I know stating that is not going to help me win votes to my side. I would love to scan all the appearances of Pluto and do the same for Korath and put them here but I cannot do that.

I would also hope that people would take the time to read the bios and actually look at Pluto's appearances, if not the actual comic, in the excerpts that can be found on sites like Marvunapp. They can make up their own mind as to how powerful Pluto is.

I would also like to refer to the Marvel directory which was published in comic books in order to refer to his powers.

Last, lets just use plain logic.

Pluto is the brother of Zeus, a skyfather. His father was Cronus and Rhea, 2 titaness. His granmother was Gaea and Uranus (the Earth and the sky). He does not become a human when travelling on Earth, and remains what he is, the Olympian God of Death.


One other thing i would like to note, that:

In one of Hercules's sojourns on Earth, Pluto appeared on Earth the guise of Hayden P. Hellman (nicknamed "Mr. Pluto"), a movie producer at California's Stardust Studio. Thus disguised, Pluto had the naive Hercules sign a contract that Hercules believed was for appearing in a project film. But in fact, it was an Olympian contract binding Hercules to become Pluto's successor as ruler of Hades.

He was able to trick his own nephew while in disguise, and this being a poulated area will make it even more difficult for Korath. Not to mention he will be magically invisible.


Winner = Pluto

 

[Phaedrus45]

But take that exactly. He is more powerful meaning greater then what is stated. It does not say that his powers are only effective in Hades.

Again, I'll just point out his stats will be Hades stats, especially that is where the vast majority of his time is spent. For clarification, they say he is more powerful in Hades, not MORE powerful in Hades.

Let me use your quote:

Avengers #283- Photon blasts through all of Pluto’s war machines. Pluto offers a year of peace in Elysium for anyone who slays an Avenger. She-Hulk tries to attack Pluto. But Pluto blasts her with Hadean fire. Pluto blasts a large chunk of rock above the Avengers. Thor catches it, but is in excruciating pain doing so. Thor throws the rock into the hole in the bridge. The Avengers run over. Thor says that Pluto couldn’t do more because his power is limited outside of Hades."

Now all the above happenned on Earth. Therefore it means he can do those things stated in his power ratings even when his is not in Hades.

This didn't happen on Earth. This happened in Pluto's realm. I see where the confusion is now. Check out Avengers 283. The reason the Avengers escaped was because Pluto couldn't follow them past the bridge to Olympus, as Pluto wasn't allowed to get that close to the city.


That's all I'm going to refer to. It's a pretty busy day, and I still have to debate my final match. Right now, I'll just be going around and round about this match. I just wanted to make sure you realized that Avengers 283 wasn't on Earth.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Beta Ray Bill vs. Belasco:

Beta Ray Bill's Bio:

Even without Stormbreaker, Beta Ray Bill is immeasurably powerful: he fought Thor to a standstill upon their first encounter, even managing to separate the Norse god from his awesome hammer. He possesses vast strength, is nearly invulnerable, immune to disease, and is virtually immortal. When he wields Stormbreaker, Bill can also fly; manipulate weather; and absorb, channel, and detect various energies. With Stormbreaker, his power is on par with a Herald of Galactus, having fought Stardust to a virtual stalemate. He could also turn into his pre-cyborg Korbinite form by stamping the hammer, which then turns into a cane. Currently stamping his hammer transforms him into the human form of Simon Walters, to turn back, he has only to slam his fist, there's no cane involved anymore.

Belasco's Bio:

Belasco is one of the most powerful sorcerers on Earth and possesses a wide knowledge of spells, allowing him to shoot mystical rays, control the minds of humans and animals, and transform himself and others, among other things.
He was also endowed by the Elder Gods with immortality and apparent invulnerability. The exception to this is his own sword, which was forged by the Elder Gods themselves. It was this which cut off his right arm under unrevealed circumstances.
He has also come to possess a wide knowledge of the advanced technology left by the Atlanteans in Pangea.
Additional skills: He is an exceptional swordsman and battle tactician and recently seen wielding a battle axe with great skill.



A great battle between two powerhouses; but, there is nothing in Beta Ray Bill's bio that states he cannot be controlled by someone with the ability to control his mind, especially since there is a part of Bill that's human now. Even if Beta Ray Bill got off a swing on Belasco, just as he did in Magik #2, he can easily have the blow pass through him and he could teleport to another location in Hell's Kitchen.

Beta Ray Bill would be tough to knock out. But, taking control of Bill's mind, making him turn human, and then easily knocking him out wouldn't be too much of a problem. If he didn't do this, the spells available would take care of Bill, too.

Winner = Belasco

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Again, I'll just point out his stats will be Hades stats, especially that is where the vast majority of his time is spent. For clarification, they say he is more powerful in Hades, not MORE powerful in Hades.






This didn't happen on Earth. This happened in Pluto's realm. I see where the confusion is now. Check out Avengers 283. The reason the Avengers escaped was because Pluto couldn't follow them past the bridge to Olympus, as Pluto wasn't allowed to get that close to the city.


That's all I'm going to refer to. It's a pretty busy day, and I still have to debate my final match. Right now, I'll just be going around and round about this match. I just wanted to make sure you realized that Avengers 283 wasn't on Earth.

I would like to point out it still was not in Hades if Thor is saying he cannot do more outside of Hades and the only reason he cannot go into the city is that Zeus does not allow him to.

And his battle against the defenders was on Earth!

Good luck in your other matches.