Contest of Marvels II Thread 3

[Hellstormer]

BRACKET 5,

Match 17:

Shriek (AHURA MAZDA) bio



vs.

Vermin (HELLSTORMER) bio

Great Ahura, I mise well forfeit O well here goes nothing.

Now I'm not familier with Vermin but his powers are stated as: Strength Level: Super-human, but significantly less than Spider-Man.
Powers: Super-human speed and agility.
Abilities: Mental control over small animals, like rats and dogs. Enhanced smell sense.
Equipment: None
Weapons: His claws and teeth, both razor-sharp. His feral rage makes him very dangerous.
Limitations: Is not very bright in his Vermin persona, and his childhood trauma causes him a great deal of fears, most notably, fear from pain.

And Shriek has: Strength Level: Slightly above human. Enough to easily raise someone with one hand, but not enough to get rid of a straightjacket.
Powers: She fires sonic blasts from her hands.
Abilities: She is able to tap into people's minds, and bring out their inner darkness (fears, anger, hate), making them act in violent and evil manners. She can also use her powers to fly and to levitate objects/people, as if she has weak psionic abilities. In fact, that would explain her darkness powers as well.

Now Vermin's fear might've been his downfall if he didn't already act in a feral way. First off Vermin will try to take her head on and one blast of those sonics and he'll realize he's not strong enough so he'd use his animals power (not sure if this is forbidden by the roles or not because it is one of his powers) to have all kinds of unearthly animals atttack her. Once she his outnumbered and weak enough he'd go in for the kill shot by ripping out her throat. If the animal thing is illegal I'll change by debate.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Nope, using powers over people and animals that are available in your environment is allowed. In fact, if people need more research on Battleworld, The Thing's first solo series all took place on Battleworld. I'm not sure what animals are there; so, you guys would have to do the research to back up any claims. (It's one of the series I'm trying to collect. Every time it comes up on ebay, it gets a little to pricey for me. But, I have about half the issues. And, I won't give out any information I know, except that it's where you can find more info.)

 

[kytrigger]

Just for clarification, while Warpath is not "Pre-House of M," the current 12-part storyline involving "The Rise and Fall of the Shiar Empire" cannot be used.

Wait, I'm confused. I thought all mutants were pre house of M? So, he does have his knives in this battle?

 

[Phaedrus45]

Wait, I'm confused. I thought all mutants were pre house of M? So, he does have his knives in this battle?

No, most mutants are "post-house of M." Just those who lost their powers are considered "pre." It then comes as to when he got the knives. If he got the knives in the current 12-part storyline, then they cannot be used. I don't know this. I'll contact JH concerning whether Deadly Genesis is considered part of this storyline, too.

 

[Hellstormer]

Nope, using powers over people and animals that are available in your environment is allowed. In fact, if people need more research on Battleworld, The Thing's first solo series all took place on Battleworld. I'm not sure what animals are there; so, you guys would have to do the research to back up any claims. (It's one of the series I'm trying to collect. Every time it comes up on ebay, it gets a little to pricey for me. But, I have about half the issues. And, I won't give out any information I know, except that it's where you can find more info.)

Cool I'll assume there are small things from Earth and who knows maybe even teh San Fransico zoo.

 

[kytrigger]

No, most mutants are "post-house of M." Just those who lost their powers are considered "pre." It then comes as to when he got the knives. If he got the knives in the current 12-part storyline, then they cannot be used. I don't know this. I'll contact JH concerning whether Deadly Genesis is considered part of this storyline, too.

ok...I see where it's just depowered mutants. For some reason I thought it was all mutants. I'm not sure when exactly her got the knives. I know it was after M-Day, and that Storm gave them to him when he returned to the X-Mansion. I also know that he had them in Part 2 of the current storyline, so he either got them in part 1, or got them before. I'll keep looking and if I find anything that he had them before part 1, I'll edit my post.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Just so you know, this is one of the instances where you can ask for other participant's assistance. Just go in the discussion thread and say you need an understanding of your opponents weapons. Ask for when he got them; but, that's the extent of how far I'd have the question go. Make sure the person who answers you doesn't go beyond the initial question. You don't want them explaining the powers to you or how your character would be effected by them.

Like we said, it's a fine line, but clarification like this is important for both sides, and well within the rules.

 

[kytrigger]

Just so you know, this is one of the instances where you can ask for other participant's assistance. Just go in the discussion thread and say you need an understanding of your opponents weapons. Ask for when he got them; but, that's the extent of how far I'd have the question go. Make sure the person who answers you doesn't go beyond the initial question. You don't want them explaining the powers to you or how your character would be effected by them.

Like we said, it's a fine line, but clarification like this is important for both sides, and well within the rules.

OK. I was just about to ask you also if I am allowed to ask others for clarification on this, since I am having trouble finding the first appearance. Thanks.

 

[kytrigger]

HAHAHA...I actually have another question for you Phaedrus.

Hypothetically, IF let's say Warpath is first seen the knives in the current story arc (thus making them ineligble) but is revealed to have gotten them from Storm before the events of the story arc, can he still use them? Thanks.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

BRACKET 5,

Match 17:

Shriek (AHURA MAZDA) bio



vs.

Vermin (HELLSTORMER) bio

First of all, here is a list of Shriek's abilities:

-Ability to tap into people's minds and bring out their inner darkness (fear, anger, hate), making them act in violent manners
-Ability to shoot sonic energy blasts from her hands
-Ability to shield herself with a sonic buffer field
-Flight

So Vermin, who has maybe class 1/3 strength and control over rats will be facing off against a creature that can fly above him, shgoot blasts with destructive force and shield herself. This battle is like to be over before it starts because there is nothing that Vermin could do against shriek where is shriek could knock vermin out with a couple blasts.

I apologise that I am not writing more but I honestly feel vermin would be outclassed against an opponent he could not even reach.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Match 18:

Hercules (KYTRIGGER) bio



vs.

Warpath (AHURA MAZDA) bio

First of all, there is an inaccuracy when it comes to Hercules. He is no longer class 100 sice Zeus' punishment.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia:

Since Zeus's punishment (marked by a "lightning bolt" tattoo on Hercules's shoulder), he has reverted to his original, ancient strength level. Another result of this is that Hercules is no longer an immortal, aging just as ordinary humans do.

His strength level is actually closer to Warpath then what was previously thought. The current Hercules is somewhere in the class 75 zone as well. I am not sure exactly where he lies but in a comic with the Hulk he gets clobberred almost to death until Zeus saves him.

With regard his mace I am not sure he would have it but that I could let go. However, Warpath would have his knives.

These 2 are fairly evenly matched. Hercules or Herakles (its ironic that his name means to the glory of Hera). They should each have some knowledge on each other. However there is 2 big differences, Warpath is an expert knife fighter using 2 vibranium knives capable of cutting through anything and Warpath can fly. He is also an accomplished hunter but I doubt he willl need those skills.

Both combattants are likely to look for each other to face off and do battle honorably. The battle would be very hard fought but has the advantage of his knives and with a similar strength as Hercules should be able to use them to cut Hercules. The Mace is a powerful weapon but it is cumbersome whereas knives are not.

I will be honest but I think the battle could go either way and both are pretty evenly matched with similar powers. In this match I put forward the Warpath would win this battle between 2 honorable fighters. One thing to note also is if Warpath needed a breather he could fly away even though that is unlikely to happen.

 

[Phaedrus45]

HAHAHA...I actually have another question for you Phaedrus.

Hypothetically, IF let's say Warpath is first seen the knives in the current story arc (thus making them ineligble) but is revealed to have gotten them from Storm before the events of the story arc, can he still use them? Thanks.

If the first time he's seen with or the knives are mentioned happens to be during the current storyline (even if the current storyline has flashbacks or mention he got them before) they cannot be included. You might have to be more specific. Did this happen in another X-Men title, or is everything being referred to happening in Uncanny X-Men's current storyline?

P.S. sorry, I didn't see you asked another question; that's the reason for the delay in answering.

 

[kytrigger]

Rebuttal

First of all, there is an inaccuracy when it comes to Hercules. He is no longer class 100 sice Zeus' punishment.

His strength level is actually closer to Warpath then what was previously thought. The current Hercules is somewhere in the class 75 zone as well. I am not sure exactly where he lies but in a comic with the Hulk he gets clobberred almost to death until Zeus saves him.

While he isn't as strong as he was when he was an immortal, he has been shown to still have strength well above the 75 ton class. As a mortal he has:

- Actually knocked out Abomination

- Singlehandedly taken on the Thunderbolts (and was winning until Hawkeeye convinced him not to kill and stop fighting)

- Dragged a shield helicarrier (while they unloaded all their weapons on him)

- Fought off the Wrecking Crew by himself

- And still fought Thor for a bit (they both stopped because the fight was good natured but they had to actually go do somethign important instead)

Andf yes, he did get beat by Hulk, but it's Hulk. He actually lasted quite a while showing off his skills. But you are right, he was beaten.

With regard his mace I am not sure he would have it but that I could let go. However, Warpath would have his knives.

Sicne Herc would know he was going into battle, I am sure he would then bring his mace. As for Warpath and his knives, as you can see, I am not sure he would have them. However, until I find out definately, I'll argue him with the knives.

These 2 are fairly evenly matched. Hercules or Herakles (its ironic that his name means to the glory of Hera). They should each have some knowledge on each other. However there is 2 big differences, Warpath is an expert knife fighter using 2 vibranium knives capable of cutting through anything and Warpath can fly. He is also an accomplished hunter but I doubt he willl need those skills.

True, Warpath is very good with the knives, but he is going up against someone tha tis Much better at hand-to-hand combat than he is. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Warpath to get a good slice in with the knives. Also, while he does fly, he has no long ranged attack, so he can fly away, but he still has to some within an arms length of Hercules to do any damage. Unfortunately an arm's length away from Hercules means a lot of pain for Warpath.

Both combattants are likely to look for each other to face off and do battle honorably. The battle would be very hard fought but has the advantage of his knives and with a similar strength as Hercules should be able to use them to cut Hercules. The Mace is a powerful weapon but it is cumbersome whereas knives are not.

I agree that both would just look for a straight up fight, not just because of honor, but because both just plain like to fight. The mace however has never shown to be combersome. I have never seen Hercules or Thor swing their respective weapons and miss someone because it was too slow and cumbersome. It might just be becasue Hercules has been wielding it for centuries, but he knows how to use that thing flawlessly.

I will be honest but I think the battle could go either way and both are pretty evenly matched with similar powers. In this match I put forward the Warpath would win this battle between 2 honorable fighters. One thing to note also is if Warpath needed a breather he could fly away even though that is unlikely to happen.

I agree that it would be a bloody match between two great brawlers. But even though that Herc is mortal now, he is still ridiculously powerful. He has shown feats of strength that I honestly do not believe Warpath would even have a chance of doing. Couple that with the fact that Hercules is one of teh best fighter's in Marvel and he will take down Warpath.

 

[kytrigger]

If the first time he's seen with or the knives are mentioned happens to be during the current storyline (even if the current storyline has flashbacks or mention he got them before) they cannot be included. You might have to be more specific. Did this happen in another X-Men title, or is everything being referred to happening in Uncanny X-Men's current storyline?

P.S. sorry, I didn't see you asked another question; that's the reason for the delay in answering.

I am almost positive it would be in Uncanny X-men and not another title since he got them while at the X-Mansion right around the time he joined them. The only other thing I could think of was if it happened in a Black Panther/Storm title since she gave them to him, but I highly doubt that.

Either way, I'm debating him with the knives right now until I find out that he can't use them. I figure it's better to be prepared for the argument in case it happens instead of taking it for granted.

 

[Hellstormer]

So Vermin, who has maybe class 1/3 strength and control over rats will be facing off against a creature that can fly above him, shgoot blasts with destructive force and shield herself. This battle is like to be over before it starts because there is nothing that Vermin could do against shriek where is shriek could knock vermin out with a couple blasts.

You're doing the same thing that Shriek, you're underestimating Vermin, I don't know what you mean by 1/3rd strength since he's suppose to be on the same level as Spider-man, who defeated Shriek. And you're also not actually reading his powers fully. I see on the wiki it says control of rats, but in the past he used rats because they were easier to control. In a situation like this where he needs to gather an army of animals and let loose the feral rage he has dwelling inside him he'll call forth everything. Shriek has no extraordinary defense against a physical assualt. She's only human flesh meaning wolf claws or eagle talons will cut right through her. In the end she'll underestimate and that will be her downfall.

Winner=Vermin

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Great Ahura, I mise well forfeit O well here goes nothing.

If you would like to forfeit I will understand

Now I'm not familier with Vermin but his powers are stated as: Strength Level: Super-human, but significantly less than Spider-Man.
Powers: Super-human speed and agility.
Abilities: Mental control over small animals, like rats and dogs. Enhanced smell sense.
Equipment: None
Weapons: His claws and teeth, both razor-sharp. His feral rage makes him very dangerous.
Limitations: Is not very bright in his Vermin persona, and his childhood trauma causes him a great deal of fears, most notably, fear from pain.

And Shriek has: Strength Level: Slightly above human. Enough to easily raise someone with one hand, but not enough to get rid of a straightjacket.
Powers: She fires sonic blasts from her hands.
Abilities: She is able to tap into people's minds, and bring out their inner darkness (fears, anger, hate), making them act in violent and evil manners. She can also use her powers to fly and to levitate objects/people, as if she has weak psionic abilities. In fact, that would explain her darkness powers as well.

No argument here

Now Vermin's fear might've been his downfall if he didn't already act in a feral way. First off Vermin will try to take her head on and one blast of those sonics and he'll realize he's not strong enough so he'd use his animals power (not sure if this is forbidden by the roles or not because it is one of his powers) to have all kinds of unearthly animals atttack her. Once she his outnumbered and weak enough he'd go in for the kill shot by ripping out her throat. If the animal thing is illegal I'll change by debate.

The thing is you are assuming he gets hit head on with her sonic blasts. So therefore he is going to be hurt...and hurt quite badly. Her sonic blasts can come with terrible force enough to knock Vermin out who is no more durable then a common rat.

You also claim that he will be approaching her.....now somebody needs to explain to me how he approaches her if she is floating above ground using her ranged blasts to knock him out. HE CANNOT FLY NOR JUMP.

The next thing is he has the ability to control small animals but these are small earthly mammals and do not include insects. Therefore you are assuming that he will control some form of some alien animal when 1. you don't know what type of animals are and 2. what species they are. From my memories of Secret War, I have no image of vermin coming to mind.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

You're doing the same thing that Shriek, you're underestimating Vermin, I don't know what you mean by 1/3rd strength since he's suppose to be on the same level as Spider-man, who defeated Shriek.

First of all and I quote you from above:

"Significantly less then Spiderman". Therefore I was making an assumption on what his strength would be given Spiderman at the time was class 10...Vermin is significantly less then class 10. To be honest I have no idea beyond that to know significantly less does not mean almost.

And you're also not actually reading his powers fully. I see on the wiki it says control of rats, but in the past he used rats because they were easier to control. In a situation like this where he needs to gather an army of animals and let loose the feral rage he has dwelling inside him he'll call forth everything.

If you read my post above you see that I address this in so far that I do not remember meany small animals and the creatures that inhabit battleworld were alien and not necessary subject to his control. It is not like he can control other species of small animals like insects. Vermin can only control small mammals. Battleworld had no mammals to the best of my recollection.

Shriek has no extraordinary defense against a physical assualt. She's only human flesh meaning wolf claws or eagle talons will cut right through her. In the end she'll underestimate and that will be her downfall.

You are wrong here because she has a sonic buffer shield and again how does he approach a flying Shriek?

Winner=Shriek

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Hey Ahura, before I start, I just want to let you know that I am going on vacation Sunday morning, so Saturday night might be the last time I get to debate. What I'll probably do is Saturday night I'll just make my closing comments in regards to all of our many points of disagreement. Obviously, you can refute them as much as you want until voting, but I just wanted to let you know that while I will try and get to a computer, there is a good chance I won't respond. And now, on with the debate!!!

First of all I hope you have a great vacation and if you wish I am willing to say our debate finishes Saturday night.

Warpath is a very good character with many strong attributes, but unfortunately he is just outclassed by Hercules.

Warpath has Class 75 strength...Hercules Class 100 strength.

I honestly do not think he is class 100 but I will address that in your next post.

Warpath is known as a good fighter...Hercules is known as one of the best in the Marvel U. Even Thor has stated himself that Hercules is better than him at hand to hand combat.

I agree without the knives, I think warpath is toast (not like me to admit this but fair is fair) but a wrestling match is not what we have here. What we have is a knife fight and that makes a very big difference.

Hercules has his Golden Mace, which is as durable as Mjolinor...While Warpath recently has two Vibranium Knives (which he is quite good at using) he doesn't have them for this match. Those were given to him after M Day.

I do not agree because they were given before civil war and that is all that matters given he retainned his powers post-M day.

The only reason I suggest he may not have his golden mace is that I remember that being a weapon of immortal Hercules not Mortal Hercules.

The only area in which Warpath has a slight advantage over Hercules is that he can fly. Unfortunately this isn't that big of an advantage really. Warpath still needs to be in close for hand-to-hand combat because he has no long range weapons, just his hands. Also, Hercules has dealt with flyers before, and ones that fly far more often (such as Frankie Raye when she was a Herald of Galactus). So he is more than adept at facing a flying foe before.

That is why I stated the only utilty of his flight powers here would be if he needs to rest.

As for prep time, both would know who the other is. Even though this is Warpath not in X-Men, he was still with X-Corporation, which is connected to X-men so I am sure he can see their files on Hercules. even if he couldn't, it freaking Hercules, everyone knows him anyway.

Now Hercules was a former Avenger and could look at their old data files and find info on him either as Warpath, his old name Thunderbird II, or just thorugh his real name of Proudstar. Either way, both would know what they are dealing with.

I am assuming the same thing even though I am not sure WarPath would have deserved a place in the avenger's database as that would be the only way he could know Warpath. And how would Hercules know the other names if all the combattants see is a picture and one name. Not all the aliases.

When the fight goes down, it won't be pretty. Hercules owns Warpath both in strength and fighting ability, and has a ridiculously strong weapon. Warpath might get away at first and start throwing boulders at Hercules, but that won't really do any good seeing as how he could just catch them and throw them back/crush them. Eventually Hercules would get to him againand it would be lights out for Warpath.

He is stronger but not that much stronger and the only way Warpath is going to win is if this becomes a knife fight meaning Warpath could truly hurt Hercules by cutting the mortal Hercules (he has no healing powers). If this was a wrestling match, Hercules wins.

The only possibility would be for Warpath to stay above ground and throw things at Hercules on the off chance that somethings get through.

Again, however, if Warpath has use of the knives I do not see this going anyother way then a strait up street fight and it is often that those carrying knives prevail.

Warpath is good, but he can't stand up to a guy that has repeatedly taken on Namor, Thor and Hulk.

Most of those battles happenned when he was immortal but it is true he has more impressive foes or fights then Warpath.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Rebuttal

While he isn't as strong as he was when he was an immortal, he has been shown to still have strength well above the 75 ton class. As a mortal he has:

- Actually knocked out Abomination - So did Doc Sampason who is no more powerful then Warpath

- Singlehandedly taken on the Thunderbolts (and was winning until Hawkeeye convinced him not to kill and stop fighting) - he was using his fighting skills and I never said he became weak as a result of his loss of immortality


- Dragged a shield helicarrier (while they unloaded all their weapons on him) Warpath could ahve probably done the same

- Fought off the Wrecking Crew by himself - he was using his fighting skills and I never said he became weak as a result of his loss of immortality

- And still fought Thor for a bit (they both stopped because the fight was good natured but they had to actually go do somethign important instead)

Andf yes, he did get beat by Hulk, but it's Hulk. He actually lasted quite a while showing off his skills. But you are right, he was beaten.

I agree that he is still strong but he considerably weaker making this more of a fair contest. Given however, Warpath will be using his knives strength comes into play in so far that he can use those knives with great efficiency. This would not be a weightlifting competition

Sicne Herc would know he was going into battle, I am sure he would then bring his mace. As for Warpath and his knives, as you can see, I am not sure he would have them. However, until I find out definately, I'll argue him with the knives.

I have not seen many images of the mortal Hercules with the golden mace so I am not sure he would have it but I could be wrong.

True, Warpath is very good with the knives, but he is going up against someone tha tis Much better at hand-to-hand combat than he is. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Warpath to get a good slice in with the knives. Also, while he does fly, he has no long ranged attack, so he can fly away, but he still has to some within an arms length of Hercules to do any damage. Unfortunately an arm's length away from Hercules means a lot of pain for Warpath.

Again, if he uses his knives he will be fighting close range. The mace is more cumbersome then the knives which was my point not that it is overcumbersome itself. If Hercules was to take a swing with the mace he would leave himself open to being sliced. It is very difficult to avoid knives when you have none, and when both combattants do battles (fights) generally end very quickly as no one can really prevent the knives os it becomes a question of who strikes first.

A knife is slashing damage which causes blood seepage and a weakness thereafater. A Mace is a blunt instrument that can also be used, but not very well, for defence. However, if Hercules goes on the offensive he leaves himself open to the knives.

I agree that both would just look for a straight up fight, not just because of honor, but because both just plain like to fight. The mace however has never shown to be combersome. I have never seen Hercules or Thor swing their respective weapons and miss someone because it was too slow and cumbersome. It might just be becasue Hercules has been wielding it for centuries, but he knows how to use that thing flawlessly.

He does know how to use it well but there is a reason why sword were considerred superiour to maces. And that guns became superiour to swords. A knife fight places Hercules at a disadvantage and the mace would be more cumbersome then the knives.

I agree that it would be a bloody match between two great brawlers. But even though that Herc is mortal now, he is still ridiculously powerful. He has shown feats of strength that I honestly do not believe Warpath would even have a chance of doing. Couple that with the fact that Hercules is one of teh best fighter's in Marvel and he will take down Warpath.

I will agree that Hercules is probably the stronger here but not by so much that Warpath has no chance against him. If he has use of his knives it may place him at an advantage. He will get cuts in and the cuts will weaken Hercules. He may even mortally wound Hercules.

I will point out for the record if Warpath does not have use of his knives, at best the fight could only end at a standstill with Warpath hovering out of range and throwing rocks which may due to some freak occurence knock out Hercules. Yes....you are right it would be unlikely.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Well given I think the final ruling is Warpath does not have use of his knives; unless he finds some type of weaponry on Battleworld or gets very lucky he will not be able to match Hercules in a wrestling match.

 

[kytrigger]

Well given I think the final ruling is Warpath does not have use of his knives; unless he finds some type of weaponry on Battleworld or gets very lucky he will not be able to match Hercules in a wrestling match.

Yeah I just read that too. It's a tough draw. But, like you admitted, without the knives, Warpath has a very slim chanceof winning.

I will point out that you are correct that their strength are definately more even now than if this was old Hercules. The thing that's tough about judging their powers is that we haven't seen much of what the newer version of Warpath can actually do, making it hard to judge.

With the knives, this would be a very interesting match, unfortunately without them, Warpath is outclassed int eh fighting department by Hercules and would go down eventually.

Winner- Hercules



P.S.- Thanks Ahura for saying that you would end the debate tonight since I am leaving town, but you don't have to. If you find any info that would help, then I say use it (I would). Either way though, thanks.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Yeah I just read that too. It's a tough draw. But, like you admitted, without the knives, Warpath has a very slim chanceof winning.

I will point out that you are correct that their strength are definately more even now than if this was old Hercules. The thing that's tough about judging their powers is that we haven't seen much of what the newer version of Warpath can actually do, making it hard to judge.

With the knives, this would be a very interesting match, unfortunately without them, Warpath is outclassed int eh fighting department by Hercules and would go down eventually.

Winner- Hercules

Well this is how I will leave it, if people can beleive he finds some type of weaponry that allows him to fight Hercules such as knives, then he has a chance and a good chance at that. However, if you do not then with the knowledge I have of Hercules I beleive he would win in hand to hand combat where no weaponry may be involved.

 

[Hellstormer]

Rebuttal

The thing is you are assuming he gets hit head on with her sonic blasts. So therefore he is going to be hurt...and hurt quite badly. Her sonic blasts can come with terrible force enough to knock Vermin out who is no more durable then a common rat. You also claim that he will be approaching her.....now somebody needs to explain to me how he approaches her if she is floating above ground using her ranged blasts to knock him out. HE CANNOT FLY NOR JUMP. The next thing is he has the ability to control small animals but these are small earthly mammals and do not include insects. Therefore you are assuming that he will control some form of some alien animal when 1. you don't know what type of animals are and 2. what species they are. From my memories of Secret War, I have no image of vermin coming to mind.

Didn't you see Willard, rat's can jump and considering that Shriek needs to breath she can only go so high. Also rats can climb anything high off the ground he can scurry up and launch himself at Shrieak then getting hit and scurrying away like a rat would to gather an army of mammals. Let's face it Earth has a vermin probaly meaning all the small earthly parts can be used my Vermin to gather an army, and who knows maybe his power will effect alien animals. And just so you know his power doesn't go specifically with mammals, he called a pigeon once.

"Significantly less then Spiderman". Therefore I was making an assumption on what his strength would be given Spiderman at the time was class 10...Vermin is significantly less then class 10. To be honest I have no idea beyond that to know significantly less does not mean almost.

How bout we round it off to say class 6....and a half.

Winner=Vermin

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Rebuttal
Didn't you see Willard, rat's can jump and considering that Shriek needs to breath she can only go so high. Also rats can climb anything high off the ground he can scurry up and launch himself at Shrieak then getting hit and scurrying away like a rat would to gather an army of mammals.

When I was saying he cannot jump I did not mean he could not jump normally just that he could not jump high enough to reach her. The atmosphere by the way goes quite high up, certainly high enough for her to be in range to blast him but yet out of range of his jumps.

Let's face it Earth has a vermin probaly meaning all the small earthly parts can be used my Vermin to gather an army, and who knows maybe his power will effect alien animals. And just so you know his power doesn't go specifically with mammals, he called a pigeon once.

This was Battleworld...there were no Earth parts if I remember Secret War (I read it over 15 years ago). This is in another Galaxy. Him calling a pigeon is still not evidence he could call on other alien creatures.

How bout we round it off to say class 6....and a half.

How about 5...you know it would not make a difference in this fight because he could not penetrate her sonic buffer zone whereas she could knock him out with her blasts. Lets also not forget he his going to be very afraid here.

Winner=Shriek

 

[Hellstormer]

Rebbutal

When I was saying he cannot jump I did not mean he could not jump normally just that he could not jump high enough to reach her. The atmosphere by the way goes quite high up, certainly high enough for her to be in range to blast him but yet out of range of his jumps.

Yes but the higher she goes up, the thinner the air, the harder is is to breathe, meaning once she gets so high she'll need to concentrate to stay causcience.

This was Battleworld...there were no Earth parts if I remember Secret War (I read it over 15 years ago). This is in another Galaxy. Him calling a pigeon is still not evidence he could call on other alien creatures.

Phaed would beg to differ

Battleworld was an artificial planet created by the extradimensional Beyonder for his contest of good and evil in the Marvel Comics Secret Wars crossover. Merged together from dozens of fragments taken from as many planets (including Denver, Colorado from Earth), Battleworld was designed to provide an unfamiliar environment which nevertheless allowed all contestants to use their powers to the fullest.

And besides I wasn't tryig to say that the pigeon means he can call aliens I was using it against you statement that he can only summon mammals.

How about 5...you know it would not make a difference in this fight because he could not penetrate her sonic buffer zone whereas she could knock him out with her blasts. Lets also not forget he his going to be very afraid here.

5 1/2 and not 1000 pounds lower.

Winner=Vermin