Arrow Dinah Laurel Lance/Katie Cassidy Thread - Part 1

[Matt.S99]

I hope so. She has been pretty boring. But always had those few moments where I was like ," yes!!! More of this!" And it looks like they're continuing with that route.

 

[raisethe3]

I never really understood the Laurel hate. People take things way too seriously. I mean, come on, its just a tv show. Geez. There are other important things in life than worrying about proper casting for your favorite character.

 

[luis4u]

I hope everyone on the show refuses to appear on his after show now out of respect for Katie.

John Campea's anti-Laurel rant continues.



She wasn't even in Episode 7 yet, John Campea spend about the first 5-7 minutes of the Arrow After Show about episode expressing nothing but his hatred for Laurel. You've got to be kidding me.



[YT]EHdONel-xtA[/YT]

 

[SpideyVille]

I mentioned this in the episode thread, but I kinda feel bad for Laurel because she's already being hated on because "Sara was the better Canary" and in the future, it's very possible that she'll be hated again if she ends up with Oliver because "she's not Felicity." It's kinda sad but I really hope people warm up to her character because I really believe they're finally giving her great stories and arcs.

 

[Matt.S99]

This^. All of this

 

[Nathan]

John Campea's anti-Laurel rant continues.



She wasn't even in Episode 7 yet, John Campea spend about the first 5-7 minutes of the Arrow After Show about episode expressing nothing but his hatred for Laurel. You've got to be kidding me.



[YT]EHdONel-xtA[/YT]

Well, that is kinda dickish. He should be happy that he didn't have to endure her this episode.

 

[Matt.S99]

Ugh.
Okay, this is my thing with the Laurel situation.
We are only on season 3. We are still pretty much at the beginning of a lot of things.
Laurel was kinda crappy for the first two seasons. (More so the second. She was fine in the first I thought, but that's besides the point)
We are only in season 3 and they're already trying to redeem her and give her a purpose.
It's not like we are in season 5 or something and she's still crappy.
So, what's the big deal? Assuming they continue to write her better, I'm sure there will be more seasons where she is good/decent than bad.
Yeah, it's a little later on into the series thus far, but better late than never.
In the first season, she was the typical girlfriend type role. They hadn't really found their footing with a lot of the characters at that time.
Season 2 was a matter of too many (much more interesting) cooks in the kitchen and she was pushed aside. They clearly didnt know what to do with her.
But now they're trying to fix that and I find that awesome.
I'm gonna say that this show will have at least 3 more seasons. Maybe 4. And maybe even another spin off. Who knows.
I say keep an open mind with Laurel.

 

[luis4u]

Surprised no one mentioned the "Sherwood Florist"

 

[Sterling Archer]

I mentioned this in the episode thread, but I kinda feel bad for Laurel because she's already being hated on because "Sara was the better Canary" and in the future, it's very possible that she'll be hated again if she ends up with Oliver because "she's not Felicity." It's kinda sad but I really hope people warm up to her character because I really believe they're finally giving her great stories and arcs.

Neither of these things are the reasons why I dislike her. I find her to be poorly written, dull, irritating and poorly acted and she makes me want to turn it off every time she is on screen. It has nothing to do with other characters being better than her. I'm not a Tumblr "shipper", I don't care who Ollie ends up with so long as it makes an entertaining show. I just think shoving Laurel into the foreground is not going to achieve that.

 

[Human Torch]

John Campea's anti-Laurel rant continues.



She wasn't even in Episode 7 yet, John Campea spend about the first 5-7 minutes of the Arrow After Show about episode expressing nothing but his hatred for Laurel. You've got to be kidding me.



[YT]EHdONel-xtA[/YT]

Well,there goes the theory that the Laurel detractors are a vocal minority.

Campea acquitted himself well.I don't see the outrage here.He didn't criticize Katie Cassidy and he didn't accuse Laurel fans of being brain dead idiots.He gave a very concise explanation of why "haters" feel as they do.I agreed with every word.

Personally,it'll take a lot for me to except her as BC.Hopefully,the show lasts for 8 more years and I get comfortable with her in the role (time heals all wounds after all), but it's not going to stop me from thinking how much a waste killing Sara was, when this remarkable transformation takes place.

BTW,I say this not as one of Campea's biggest fans.I probably disagree with him 50% of the time.But I always enjoy his opinions,and I do admire him for calling it as he sees it,which is my outlook in life.

 

[Nathan]

So, I bothered to actually listen to his rant, and I agree, he actually made many valid points. And he stresses the point just because he doesn't like Laurel, doesn't mean that no one else can like Laurel. If you like Laurel, keep liking her. And he also makes a good point about how becoming a superhero is suddenly a piece of cake on this show.

So Ollie still gets the crap kicked out of him, after 2 1/2 years passed. Yet it only took 5 months for Roy and Thea to turn into Ninjas. And Laurel is taking Boxing lessons. Yeah, yeah, obviously Ted will teach her more than just boxing, but she'll probably suit up faster than even Roy did. The show started out great, but in Season 3, it's starting to get silly.

 

[Human Torch]

The thing about the "5 months to superhero status" for me comes down to a few factors:

Ollie learned a lot and suffered a lot to get where he is.But,having gotten through all that from different teachers/situations,he should be able to impart those lessons to Roy without it taking him 5 years to learn.

It also helps if the student is adept at some form of athletics. (Roy's "parkour" advantage makes him not unlike Batman's students- i.e,Dick was in the circus,Barbara a gymnast,etc) That puts him slightly ahead of the game than Ollie was when he started.

It also is important to have a "student isn't greater than the master" outlook though.Ollie should be able to beat Slade,because he "paid his dues".Having Roy,Laurel or Thea being able to beat Slade because they have "equal" training wouldn't cut it.

 

[b_boy]

I don't think they are getting to good too fast. They are suiting up fast but every episode we can see that Roy still has a lot to learn (he didn't jump out of the window with Oliver on the Komodo episode, Cupid took him down, on Corto Maltese during the fire Diggle and Oliver did the job, he couldn't shoot, took them hand to hand after Diggle and Oliver did a lot of things) and lots of things he does is "flip" based or parkour based wich we know he already has a background. Thea we know she has had a very intense training for the past five months and is still doing every morning but we haven't really seen her in combat, so it's not like she's taking down everybody. Laurel we know had a bit of a fighting background, she's being driving and training morning and day lately, she'll suit up after somemonths of hard training with Wildcat BUT the producers already said that she'll learn that suiting up it's not enough to be a hero and Stephen said she will not be Sara's level when she suits up, so it's like ppl are hating a lot on her for things they think will happen with her, not with what is actually happening. This season so far she basicaly didn't do anything (except for episode five) that she used to do that ppl complained, she's been writting better and acted better, but ppl still complain about what was done on the second season.

 

[Paradox1]

So, I bothered to actually listen to his rant, and I agree, he actually made many valid points. And he stresses the point just because he doesn't like Laurel, doesn't mean that no one else can like Laurel. If you like Laurel, keep liking her. And he also makes a good point about how becoming a superhero is suddenly a piece of cake on this show.

So Ollie still gets the crap kicked out of him, after 2 1/2 years passed. Yet it only took 5 months for Roy and Thea to turn into Ninjas. And Laurel is taking Boxing lessons. Yeah, yeah, obviously Ted will teach her more than just boxing, but she'll probably suit up faster than even Roy did. The show started out great, but in Season 3, it's starting to get silly.

This is my point, suiting up in hero garb doesn't make you a superhero. When one enters the army, police force, or whatever the first thing they do is give you a suit. It's part of the indoctrination into this mindset of putting your life on the line for others. A police uniform does not mean a rookie cop is ready to lead a swat team. A private in the army doesn't get to make command decisions on the battlefield. So 5mos or 5years doesn't mean much when it's just about putting on the suit.

 

[Nathan]

Let's hope they remember that when the League returns.

 

[Verick808]

It's a comic book show, people learn things faster than they should be able to. Most people who become masters of a single martial art train most of their lives, if not all. Batman mastered 127 martial arts while picking up genius deductive skills, genius level knowledge in electrical, mechanical, and civic engineering. Never mind he's also one of the top chemist, top biologist, top physicist, top etc... in the world.
Superheroes learn fast. Do you think Ollie spent even a tenth of the amount of time training that Nyssa has? Who came out on top there? If you compare the difference between Roy's time spent training and Oliver's time training and compare that to the difference Oliver spent training as opposed to Slade, Nyssa, and Bronze Tiger where do you think you will find the larger gap. Same with Thea, who was actually a trophy winning archer before Ollie was even shipwrecked.
It's a trait of the superhero genre and it's just hard for me to fathom why people are seem so surprised or taken aback by it. Do we really want to wait four years until all these side characters can actually do something useful? I would like to see the result of Diggle's training though. Two years of training under Ollie and occasionally with Sara combined with his military training and he should be at or near Ollie's level to be honest.

 

[Human Torch]

It's a comic book show, people learn things faster than they should be able to. Most people who become masters of a single martial art train most of their lives, if not all. Batman mastered 127 martial arts while picking up genius deductive skills, genius level knowledge in electrical, mechanical, and civic engineering. Never mind he's also one of the top chemist, top biologist, top physicist, top etc... in the world.
Superheroes learn fast. Do you think Ollie spent even a tenth of the amount of time training that Nyssa has? Who came out on top there? If you compare the difference between Roy's time spent training and Oliver's time training and compare that to the difference Oliver spent training as opposed to Slade, Nyssa, and Bronze Tiger where do you think you will find the larger gap. Same with Thea, who was actually a trophy winning archer before Ollie was even shipwrecked.
It's a trait of the superhero genre and it's just hard for me to fathom why people are seem so surprised or taken aback by it. Do we really want to wait four years until all these side characters can actually do something useful? I would like to see the result of Diggle's training though. Two years of training under Ollie and occasionally with Sara combined with his military training and he should be at or near Ollie's level to be honest.

 

[Boy Scout]

The writers are the ones who emphasized how long it took for Oliver to become such an accomplished fighter. It made perfect sense and worked well with the grounded universe they'd established. To see others becoming similarly (even if not exactly) accomplished in a fraction of the time is inconsistent with that, and should be discussed. I don'thold the show to the same standard I did at the beginning because the writers have chosen to take shortcuts, but it honestly doesn't bother me too much. It is what it is.

 

[Norek]

The writers are the ones who emphasized how long it took for Oliver to become such an accomplished fighter. It made perfect sense and worked well with the grounded universe they'd established. To see others becoming similarly (even if not exactly) accomplished in a fraction of the time is inconsistent with that, and should be discussed.

Absolutely.

I have to say, I'm not a fan of the idea of introducing big characters (like Black Canary, Deathstroke, Vertigo, etc.) and then later on just have someone else "take the mantle" and kinda dish off the previous one like "Oh, that wasn't the real Canary, THIS is the real Canary".

For Slade, it really worked, and I think it'll work for Vertigo (the first one was terrible), but for Canary... Ehh... I know it kinda gives a reason for Laurel to become a vigilante and honor her sister in a way, but still, it seems a bit too forced and inconsistent.

 

[SpideyVille]

Wasn't the Post-Crisis comic version of Dinah Lance taking up the "mantle" of her mother's Black Canary? If they decided to bring Sara back and make her become that influence for Laurel, I don't mind since it would make much more sense in the context of the show for Laurel to be inspired by someone younger than her who is still connected to her, since vigilantes did not exist in the past, or st least did not have a record of existing prior to Wildcat from what we've seen so far.

 

[Human Torch]

I've always hated "legacy" characters to begin with.DC does that way too often.(Yeah,I know Marvel has done it too,but they will usually revert back to the original before long.DC takes decades) I hate the idea that someone just puts on somebody else's costume and suddenly they're the best version of that character.

 

[Boy Scout]

What?! I love legacy characters!

 

[KillerMcQueen]

What?! I love legacy characters!

Indeed, some characters really thrive on the idea of their name/costume being a legacy not restricted to one character..

 

[luis4u]

http://j-skipper.deviantart.com/art/Black-Canary-494502470

 

[Nathan]

Indeed, some characters really thrive on the idea of their name/costume being a legacy not restricted to one character..

Man, I'm already looking forward to Canary #3.