Arrow Dinah Laurel Lance/Katie Cassidy Thread - Part 3

[Paradox1]

Laurel is an assistant district attorney. she has a full time job as a lawyer which means only a couple hours in her spare time to train. that is not enough to take out league of assassin fighters who dedicated themselves their whole life to get trained by Ra's Al Ghul himself. and that's not enough time to learn how to jump off rooftops and dodge bullets. they should have built her up with a slow burn as she learns and trains and then maybe in season 4 of 5 she dons the outfit and it becomes believable.

better yet, Sara should have stayed the Canary and like I said earlier leave Laurel to be their partner on the legal side of things to help the team get convictions on the bad guys they catch. that makes more sense and works better. an assistant DA sometimes spends 16+ hours working cases nonstop. Ihow does she have time to wear all those buckles and fight crime at night? how does she have time to hang at the Arrow cave all the time or go to Nanda Parbat repeatedly? none of her becoming the Black Canary makes ANY sense.

Rey learned to master the force in a matter of days, Laurel becoming the black canary over the course of months is nothing.

 

[Batsfan1]

how has she had plenty of time to train to fight LEAGUE OF ASSASSIN members? and she still does work at her job. there has been scenes (although not many) of her at the precinct as an ADA. an ADA puts in countless hours of work everyday. she put in a couple hours in her spare time for 2 maybe 3 months. no way you're skilled enough to fight assassins. maybe street level thugs who have zero training but that's it.

We have been given no indication that she works any significant hours at her job. The show spends much more time with her on the streets. It's very easy to conclude that she spent her apparently many hours of spare time training.

and why does Laurel make more sense than Sara? because that's how it is in the comics? that may be true in the comics, but they way they have written it in this show, it makes more sense for Sara to be the canary. they should have written it to where Laurel was on that boat with Oliver. then all of this would have been a moot point.

not to mention, Katie Cassidy just isn't believable at all as a crime fighter.

Neither is Colton Haynes, Caity Lotz and Willa Holland. It makes less sense for Sara to be Black Canary because she isn't the character in backstory, methods or name. Laurel should not have gotten on the boat, because that's not the character's backstory. Dinah Laurel Lance took on the identity Black Canary that was held by a relative, trained with Ted Grant and that relative died. She wasn't stranded on an island with Oliver Queen and trained by the LOA. Just like Oliver has to be stranded on an island, Clark Kent has to be sent to earth from the dying planet of Krytpon and raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent, Peter's Uncle Ben has to be shot by a mugger and Bruce Wayne's parents have to be killed in front of him, Dinah Laurel Lance has take on the Canary mantle from a relative who dies and be trained by Ted Grant, otherwise they're not the characters. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[SpideyVille]

So Katie posted a photo Willa took at a funeral, which would imply that she was filming. But one of the comments says its from Moira's funeral, and upon further inspection, that seems to be the case. So it's kinda obvious that she's being told to do some damage control to throw the fans off the trail.

 

[DeadFan]

I'm still trying to keep an open mind that maybe it won't be Laurel in the grave, (which admittedly I'm having a hard time doing...) but Katie's recent posting activities do seem highly suspicious to me

 

[action-packed]

We have been given no indication that she works any significant hours at her job. The show spends much more time with her on the streets. It's very easy to conclude that she spent her apparently many hours of spare time training.

she's an ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY! they don't just work 8 hours and go home. maybe it's the show's fault for making her an ADA. but she didn't do any intense training like Sara and and Thea did.

Neither is Colton Haynes, Caity Lotz and Willa Holland. It makes less sense for Sara to be Black Canary because she isn't the character in backstory, methods or name. Laurel should not have gotten on the boat, because that's not the character's backstory. Dinah Laurel Lance took on the identity Black Canary that was held by a relative, trained with Ted Grant and that relative died. She wasn't stranded on an island with Oliver Queen and trained by the LOA. Just like Oliver has to be stranded on an island, Clark Kent has to be sent to earth from the dying planet of Krytpon and raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent, Peter's Uncle Ben has to be shot by a mugger and Bruce Wayne's parents have to be killed in front of him, Dinah Laurel Lance has take on the Canary mantle from a relative who dies and be trained by Ted Grant, otherwise they're not the characters. Have a very great day!

what? Caity Lotz is VERY believable as a fighter. so is Colton Haynes. Willa Holland is more believable to me. Kaity Cassidy is just too stiff and wooden as an actress imo.

and she literally only had a handful of boxing lessons. Nyssa didn't really train her that much either. maybe it's the show's fault for not highlighting it more. who knows. but every other character had some sort of rigorous training to be who they are. Laurel's transformation as the Canary was rushed. no way around that and the show (season 3 in particular) suffered because of it.

I know you guys was Laurel to be the Canary because she's the Canary in the comics. but the show has already taken plenty of liberties with the source material already anyway (Diggle and Thea didn't even exist in the comics for example and this is not the same Felicity Smoak as in the comics). they should have just kept Sara as the Canary imo.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

she's an ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY! they don't just work 8 hours and go home. maybe it's the show's fault for making her an ADA. but she didn't do any intense training like Sara and and Thea did.

what? Caity Lotz is VERY believable as a fighter. so is Colton Haynes. Willa Holland is more believable to me. Kaity Cassidy is just too stiff and wooden as an actress imo.

and she literally only had a handful of boxing lessons. Nyssa didn't really train her that much either. maybe it's the show's fault for not highlighting it more. who knows. but every other character had some sort of rigorous training to be who they are. Laurel's transformation as the Canary was rushed. no way around that and the show (season 3 in particular) suffered because of it.

I know you guys was Laurel to be the Canary because she's the Canary in the comics. but the show has already taken plenty of liberties with the source material already anyway (Diggle and Thea didn't even exist in the comics for example and this is not the same Felicity Smoak as in the comics). they should have just kept Sara as the Canary imo.

The show didn't suffer in season 3 because they didn't show Laurel training. The show suffered because they put Felicity front and center instead of showing Laurel training. Not to mention the lack of thought and care that was put into Ra's and the League. Ra's' dialogue was great, but the narrative itself was weak. Digest that.

 

[Slade W]

The show didn't suffer in season 3 because they didn't show Laurel training. The show suffered because they put Felicity front and center instead of showing Laurel training. Not to mention the lack of thought and care that was put into Ra's and the League. Ra's' dialogue was great, but the narrative itself was weak. Digest that.

The writing was much more careless and messy in season 3 too. There were times where a character would say or do something that would contradict something that happened in an earlier episode. It stood out much more when watching episodes back to back (I re-watched season 2 and 3 recently).

I agree about Ra's dialogue also. I thought it was great too. They didn't give him much scenes until it was too late on in the season IMO. Slade, Malcolm and Darhk were much more prominent.

 

[SpideyVille]

Let us not forget how many Laurel scenes were shot and cut last season.

And I know I'm going to get crap for it, but Daredevil has done a better job at showing what it's really like for a Lawyer/Vigilante. Heck, they show more character development for both sides in one character than Arrow has done for the Lawyer in Laurel and the Vigilante in Oliver in the past season in a half. The fault is not in the characters, it's in the writing, especially since Arrow has more time in a season to show more.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

Let us not forget how many Laurel scenes were shot and cut last season.

And I know I'm going to get crap for it, but Daredevil has done a better job at showing what it's really like for a Lawyer/Vigilante. Heck, they show more character development for both sides in one character than Arrow has done for the Lawyer in Laurel and the Vigilante in Oliver in the past season in a half. The fault is not in the characters, it's in the writing, especially since Arrow has more time in a season to show more.

You can't even compare Arrow to Daredevil at this point.

One of the shows is The Wire and the other is 90210. I'll let you decide which is which.

 

[AspieXLDS]

she's an ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY! they don't just work 8 hours and go home. maybe it's the show's fault for making her an ADA. but she didn't do any intense training like Sara and and Thea did.

what? Caity Lotz is VERY believable as a fighter. so is Colton Haynes. Willa Holland is more believable to me. Kaity Cassidy is just too stiff and wooden as an actress imo.

and she literally only had a handful of boxing lessons. Nyssa didn't really train her that much either. maybe it's the show's fault for not highlighting it more. who knows. but every other character had some sort of rigorous training to be who they are. Laurel's transformation as the Canary was rushed. no way around that and the show (season 3 in particular) suffered because of it.

I know you guys was Laurel to be the Canary because she's the Canary in the comics. but the show has already taken plenty of liberties with the source material already anyway (Diggle and Thea didn't even exist in the comics for example and this is not the same Felicity Smoak as in the comics). they should have just kept Sara as the Canary imo.

We didn't see her do any intense training like Sara. But seeing as the primary focus of the show since Season 3 is the Olicity melodrama, followed by the supposed main story for each Season (League of Assassins/HIVE), then sub-stories for Thea, Dig, Quentin, and finally Laurel (so any story aspect for her is Tier 6 as far as story importance goes), we didn't get the focus that it should have had for those who wanted to see her training like Sara. But we know she trained with both Ted and Nyssa.

Oh, and since you are apparently lacking in information: Katie Cassidy is an actual martial artist, like Caity Lotz. The showrunners chose not to let her use her skills, and told her to actively hold back.

Finally: after Suzette or whoever she was got poisoned in the Season 4 premiere, Laurel became the acting District Attorney. Until a new mayor appoints someone over her, she is the DA, not an ADA. She's calling the shots. As for if its unrealistic: the show has become unrealistic since Season 2. Do keep up with the times.

On another note:

You said you thought this was a discussion forum in one of your 'ranting' posts. Seems to me you want people to accept that KC is a worthless actress, Laurel is a worthless character, and that Caity Lotz/Sara Lance should have been kept in play as the Canary; my guess is it has less to do with her qualifications (she pretty much has the same ones as Katie Cassidy does) and more to do with the fact that she is a bi-sexual with stronger leanings towards women, whereas Katie Cassidy plays a straight character who is considered a canon love interest for Oliver Queen, even though they barely have screen time together in comparison to Oliver/Felicity.

Which leads me to my next point of discussion, which is more general than the last few points, which were in answer to your posts:

I find it rather interesting that despite the assurances from showrunners and actors alike that there is no plan to put Oliver and Laurel back into the same hemisphere as far as romantic interest is concerned, that the fans of the Oliver/Felicity pairing still feel so threatened that they want the character killed off. I have been all over the Internet and the only ones who are calling for the character to die are hardcore Olicity/Felicity fans who despite claims to the contrary, still perceive Dinah Laurel Lance as a threat to their OTP.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Rey learned to master the force in a matter of days, Laurel becoming the black canary over the course of months is nothing.

Did you just compare the Force to martial arts? Like really?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

We have been given no indication that she works any significant hours at her job. The show spends much more time with her on the streets. It's very easy to conclude that she spent her apparently many hours of spare time training.Neither is Colton Haynes, Caity Lotz and Willa Holland. It makes less sense for Sara to be Black Canary because she isn't the character in backstory, methods or name. Laurel should not have gotten on the boat, because that's not the character's backstory. Dinah Laurel Lance took on the identity Black Canary that was held by a relative, trained with Ted Grant and that relative died. She wasn't stranded on an island with Oliver Queen and trained by the LOA. Just like Oliver has to be stranded on an island, Clark Kent has to be sent to earth from the dying planet of Krytpon and raised by Jonathan and Martha Kent, Peter's Uncle Ben has to be shot by a mugger and Bruce Wayne's parents have to be killed in front of him, Dinah Laurel Lance has take on the Canary mantle from a relative who dies and be trained by Ted Grant, otherwise they're not the characters. Have a very great day!

Did you actually use character backstory as an excuse? Because this is Arrow, where that clearly doesn't matter.

There is literally one "believable" fighter in the shows history. It was Sara. Everyone else is varying degrees of good to horrible. Laurel is clearly the worst. Which wouldn't be a big deal if she could act, but I don't think she can at all.

The show didn't suffer in season 3 because they didn't show Laurel training. The show suffered because they put Felicity front and center instead of showing Laurel training. Not to mention the lack of thought and care that was put into Ra's and the League. Ra's' dialogue was great, but the narrative itself was weak. Digest that.

Having recently binge watched season 3, Laurel training would not have helped a thing. Felicity is front and center because the actress is actually compelling. We can talk about writing, but Laurel was the main female character for season 1 and 2, and did nothing for me. Once Sara showed up, it was made abundantly clear how lacking the character was in terms of writing and performance. I don't like where they took season 3 at all, but focusing on Laurel would not have made anything better. If anything, worse.

 

[Paradox1]

Did you just compare the Force to martial arts? Like really?

Why not? Unless I've misunderstood Anakin and Luke having to leave their parents as a sacrifice. The weeks Luke spent on dagobah running,jumping and mediating as hard work.Then yeah mastering martial arts, and the force are nothing alike I mean it's not like George Lucas based any of the force on martial arts.

 

[regnak]

Did you just compare the Force to martial arts? Like really?

The point is that based on the first two trilogies Rey reduced the amount of time to learn really advanced force techniques ala the Jedi Mind Trick by about 99%. If you are good with that then you cannot complain about Laurel's training which was reduced by a good deal less than 99% ... unless of course you are a hypocrite.


And of course the great Rey had no training whereas Laurel had some.


Another thing that bugged me was that Rey took punches from thugs early in the movie not with the force or martial arts skill but just because. it was jarring to see that since normally characters without super strength either block/avoid such blows are knocked down or hurt by them.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

Having recently binge watched season 3, Laurel training would not have helped a thing. Felicity is front and center because the actress is actually compelling. We can talk about writing, but Laurel was the main female character for season 1 and 2, and did nothing for me. Once Sara showed up, it was made abundantly clear how lacking the character was in terms of writing and performance. I don't like where they took season 3 at all, but focusing on Laurel would not have made anything better. If anything, worse.

Stopped reading at the bolded. Your opinion is worthy of ridicule and there shall be no more dialogue between us. Enjoy 90210 with a DC paint job.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Stopped reading at the bolded. Your opinion is worthy of ridicule and there shall be no more dialogue between us. Enjoy 90210 with a DC paint job.

You do realize how contradictory your post is right? No one is more CW then Katie Cassidy. She is always wide-eyed, mouth slightly open. Like she has difficulty thinking. I get that you are a fan, but your own point shows a lack of awareness.

By the way, I wouldn't use 90210 as an example of crap television. After all, the original series is a bit of a classic that laid the ground work for what came next.

 

[Batsfan1]

she's an ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY! they don't just work 8 hours and go home. maybe it's the show's fault for making her an ADA. but she didn't do any intense training like Sara and and Thea did.

Yes. And we've been given no indication that that's a job she does for that amount of time.

what? Caity Lotz is VERY believable as a fighter. so is Colton Haynes. Willa Holland is more believable to me. Kaity Cassidy is just too stiff and wooden as an actress imo.

That's an opinion, not a fact. But we weren't talking about acting. Of course, as far as I understand, both Caity and Katie had the same stunt double. But a better character isn't about how believable or good of a fighter they are.

and she literally only had a handful of boxing lessons. Nyssa didn't really train her that much either. maybe it's the show's fault for not highlighting it more. who knows. but every other character had some sort of rigorous training to be who they are. Laurel's transformation as the Canary was rushed. no way around that and the show (season 3 in particular) suffered because of it.

It didn't. Out of all the things that's the least negative thing out of all the bad writing in season 3. We never got any real indication that Roy got more training than Laurel. We've never been given any real indication of Oliver's training either so far in flashbacks.

I know you guys was Laurel to be the Canary because she's the Canary in the comics. but the show has already taken plenty of liberties with the source material already anyway (Diggle and Thea didn't even exist in the comics for example and this is not the same Felicity Smoak as in the comics). they should have just kept Sara as the Canary imo.

The comics are literally the only thing that matter when adapting a comic book. Without them there wouldn't be a show. By this logic Oliver doesn't even need to be on the show or be the main character, because the only reason he is is because he's Green Arrow in the comics.

Did you actually use character backstory as an excuse? Because this is Arrow, where that clearly doesn't matter.

Oliver Queen is Green Arrow, who was stranded on an island and forced to learn how to survive. Backstory and M.O. is all there is in the show or it isn't the character.

There is literally one "believable" fighter in the shows history. It was Sara. Everyone else is varying degrees of good to horrible. Laurel is clearly the worst. Which wouldn't be a big deal if she could act, but I don't think she can at all.

I disagree. It's not a confirmation of something.

Having recently binge watched season 3, Laurel training would not have helped a thing. Felicity is front and center because the actress is actually compelling.

I don't agree. Not that it matters. What we find compelling is an opinion. I don't find Felicity compelling or Oliver much anymore. Whose right there? No one.

We can talk about writing, but Laurel was the main female character for season 1 and 2, and did nothing for me.

That isn't what matters. None of us are right if we define whether we like a character by anything than their writing.

Once Sara showed up, it was made abundantly clear how lacking the character was in terms of writing and performance. I don't like where they took season 3 at all, but focusing on Laurel would not have made anything better. If anything, worse.

How? The Laurel part of the middle-season is more compelling than anything Felicity based and some of Oliver's stuff. Have a very great day both of you!

God bless you both! God bless everyone!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

First, you should really break up your sentences into paragraphs.

Oliver Queen is Green Arrow, who was stranded on an island and forced to learn how to survive. Backstory and M.O. is all there is in the show or it isn't the character.

Thea Queen as Speedy.

I disagree. It's not a confirmation of something.

The confirmation on how they feel about Katie Cassidy as an actress was made when they shifted the lead female role to Felicity. You can agree or disagree on whether they are right, but that doesn't happen if they find Laurel to be a strong lead character that vast majority of people are enjoying.

If everything was going fine, why did they make the switch?

I don't agree. Not that it matters. What we find compelling is an opinion. I don't find Felicity compelling or Oliver much anymore. Whose right there? No one.

It is a question of what the creative finds compelling. Not that they are always right. I find Arrow crew to be shoddy at best in their decision making. But a random supporting character doesn't suddenly become one of the two leads because the original female lead was working out.

That isn't what matters. None of us are right if we define whether we like a character by anything than their writing.

This is in fact wrong as they do hand out statues for people's acting ability. Which very much defines a character. One could say performance matters more then writing. It is why lackluster scripts still produce acting nominations.

If Cassidy was a compelling actress, she'd rise above the material. You see this on Flash quite a bit actually.

How? The Laurel part of the middle-season is more compelling than anything Felicity based and some of Oliver's stuff.

And I disagree. It wasn't even that much of a writing thing, though it was pretty dumb, but because of how unconvincing Kate Cassidy is in the role. I honestly don't know if she is less convincing as a DA or a fighter.

 

[SpideyVille]

You can't even compare Arrow to Daredevil at this point.

One of the shows is The Wire and the other is 90210. I'll let you decide which is which.

What pisses me off is Arrow basically started the revolution with comic book TV shows. Smallville was too cheesy, the Aquaman and Wonder Woman shows never made it past the pilot, and Agents of Shield did not start off too hot. But now it's regressed so far. Yes, Daredevil has more going for it with the budget and shooting schedule, but Arrow was just as compelling for a while there, and they can't even compete with themselves at this point.

Stopped reading at the bolded. Your opinion is worthy of ridicule and there shall be no more dialogue between us. Enjoy 90210 with a DC paint job.

It's funny because when I first heard about Olicity in season 2, I thought, there's no way that would ever happen. Story wise it makes no sense for this version of Oliver to fall for a Felicity type, and even if it did happen, it would never work. And in the episode or two that they had Felicity as the focus in the first couple of seasons, it didn't really go well with the exception of her natural charm. But last season completely stripped that from her, and it seems like they're going back in the same direction which proves that if you can turn a character that was loved by all into a hated character now, without her actually doing evil things, it goes to show where the flaws are really at.

 

[AspieXLDS]

Actually, the rather amusing thing is that unless its due to contractual issues (which is a possibility with the CW since KC has been one of their big names for a while), then the billing given at the beginning of each episode would show that KC is still the female co-lead. It would also fit with Guggenheim's claims that the writing for KC/Laurel Lance has no problems.

The thing about billing is its in order of importance. Male lead/co-lead, female lead/co-lead, then supporting regulars, then guest stars and special guest stars. To this day, KC remains in the second billing. And unlike Smallville or other shows that do the billing during an intro sequence, they only put the billing during the show itself since the intro sequence for Arrow is short.

So if this isn't due to contractual obligation from the CW towards Katie Cassidy, than the showrunners themselves are either morons for not changing the billing after they decided to shift the focus, or she is still considered the female co-lead.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What pisses me off is Arrow basically started the revolution with comic book TV shows. Smallville was too cheesy, the Aquaman and Wonder Woman shows never made it past the pilot, and Agents of Shield did not start off too hot. But now it's regressed so far. Yes, Daredevil has more going for it with the budget and shooting schedule, but Arrow was just as compelling for a while there, and they can't even compete with themselves at this point.

All Daredevil shows is how far behind Arrow really was. It was getting a lot of credit for not being Smallville bad. People would tell me how good the Arrow fight scenes were, talking about them being major motion picture level, but that clearly was never the case. Daredevil of course makes that obvious now. With Daredevil, iZombie Jessica Jones, Agent Carter, and Flash around, it doesn't get that pass anymore.

We can talk about shooting schedule and budget, but just look at iZombie. It is a procedural and yet is fantastic do to creative writing and a very strong cast.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Actually, the rather amusing thing is that unless its due to contractual issues (which is a possibility with the CW since KC has been one of their big names for a while), then the billing given at the beginning of each episode would show that KC is still the female co-lead. It would also fit with Guggenheim's claims that the writing for KC/Laurel Lance has no problems.

The thing about billing is its in order of importance. Male lead/co-lead, female lead/co-lead, then supporting regulars, then guest stars and special guest stars. To this day, KC remains in the second billing. And unlike Smallville or other shows that do the billing during an intro sequence, they only put the billing during the show itself since the intro sequence for Arrow is short.

So if this isn't due to contractual obligation from the CW towards Katie Cassidy, than the showrunners themselves are either morons for not changing the billing after they decided to shift the focus, or she is still considered the female co-lead.

Billing is never do to importance. It is always do to contracts. Katie gets it because she signed on as the female lead. On the show she has lost that status, but still retains it in the billing.

 

[Arrowshieldfan]

is this Arrow bashing going to stop? or is it because olicity stuff people will trash now.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

is this Arrow bashing going to stop? or is it because olicity stuff people will trash now.

In what way is this bashing?

 

[Paradox1]

Well you are attempting to compare Daredevil to Arrow as if it's some fair comparison. It's like trying to compare Gotham to the Wire.