Arrow Dinah Laurel Lance/Katie Cassidy Thread - Part 3

[godisawesome]

Just want to say how much I've enjoyed your posts/analyses. They've given me a way to think more critically about the show -- Thank you! Also I'm thinking about trying out some BC comics & so above info is very useful

I'm not entirely an expert on Black Canary comics, but from what I do know, the take-charge butt kicking Canary is most prevalent in the Chuck Dixon and Gail Simone penned Birds of Prey series, and the Dwayne McDuffie penned Justice League. BoP first started when Ollie was still officially dead and replaced by his son Connor Hawke, so Dinah (not Laurel) was very much a solo act before teaming up with Oracle, and that Justice League series featured her on the same team as Red Arrow instead of Green, and features an awesome sequence where she takes on a room full of Tornado androids.

 

[Slade W]

Quentin's death would have made the most sense, as there is not many more places to go with the character. Laurel, in comparison, had far more potential and growing to do. There are far more possibilities for the show with Laurel on it than Quentin. His death would also have had an effect on lots of people. It would have affected Oliver, Laurel, Felicity (because of the horrible effect that it would have on her mother, Donna). And while to a much lesser extent, Diggle and Thea would also have been hurt by it, as I am sure that they have grown to appreciate and respect the former police captain more over the course of the season, as he has aided them by providing an insight into Darhk's operations and risked a lot in doing so.

It also would have fit his character perfectly. His character is a tragic one. He is a man who cannot find happiness, and when he starts to come close to it, it is swiftly and cruelly taken away from him and he is put in a worse position than he was before. What makes it worse is that he is a good man, a kind person, that loves his family more than anything and who just wants to help people and make the city a better place. Despite the flaws that he has, he deserves better. If he had to be killed off the show, there would have been no ending more fitting, more appropriate, more right than him going out protecting Laurel or Sara, just when he was beginning to find happiness in his life with Donna and his relationship with Laurel being in a very good place. It would have summed up the man and his life perfectly and would have been quite beautiful in a way, if not sad too. Tragic characters normally have tragic ends. The Lance family and their lives are filled with tragedy, but one member of the family had much more tragedy to face, obstacles to overcome and grow stronger for it, while the other should have been coming closer to their tragic end. They got them mixed up though.

 

[Paradox1]

Quentin's death would have made the most sense, as there is not many more places to go with the character. Laurel, in comparison, had far more potential and growing to do. There are far more possibilities for the show with Laurel on it than Quentin. His death would also have had an effect on lots of people. It would have affected Oliver, Laurel, Felicity (because of the horrible effect that it would have on her mother, Donna). And while to a much lesser extent, Diggle and Thea would also have been hurt by it, as I am sure that they have grown to appreciate and respect the former police captain more over the course of the season, as he has aided them by providing an insight into Darhk's operations and risked a lot in doing so.

It also would have fit his character perfectly. His character is a tragic one. He is a man who cannot find happiness, and when he starts to come close to it, it is swiftly and cruelly taken away from him and he is put in a worse position than he was before. What makes it worse is that he is a good man, a kind person, that loves his family more than anything and who just wants to help people and make the city a better place. Despite the flaws that he has, he deserves better. If he had to be killed off the show, there would have been no ending more fitting, more appropriate, more right than him going out protecting Laurel or Sara, just when he was beginning to find happiness in his life with Donna and his relationship with Laurel being in a very good place. It would have summed up the man and his life perfectly and would have been quite beautiful in a way, if not sad too. Tragic characters normally have tragic ends. The Lance family and their lives are filled with tragedy, but one member of the family had much more tragedy to face, obstacles to overcome and grow stringer for it, while the other should have been coming closer to their tragic end. They got them mixed up though.

Your making too much sense dude which is why the writers didn't go that route. For example when Oliver was stabbed in the stomach, then kicked off a cliff. He recovered because of "willpower" and "herbs" instead of the Lazarua Pitt's waters which actually would of made more sense.

 

[Fincher]

I'm not entirely an expert on Black Canary comics, but from what I do know, the take-charge butt kicking Canary is most prevalent in the Chuck Dixon and Gail Simone penned Birds of Prey series, and the Dwayne McDuffie penned Justice League. BoP first started when Ollie was still officially dead and replaced by his son Connor Hawke, so Dinah (not Laurel) was very much a solo act before teaming up with Oracle, and that Justice League series featured her on the same team as Red Arrow instead of Green, and features an awesome sequence where she takes on a room full of Tornado androids.

It fits into how source accuracy can be a matter of perspective, because early Birds of Prey is what I've read of the character, and from what I've read:

- Green Arrow was only referenced as someone Dinah used to date

- Her mother wasn't mentioned at all, never mind Dinah being a legacy character

- She didn't have the canary cry (I guess she lost her power somehow), but she did have sonic emitting balls like Sara used on the show

Neither Laurel nor Sara fit the Black Canary I read terribly well, and which is closer is debatable. Sara has more of the look and is more of a well trained martial artist, but Laurel has more of the morality and the tendency to recklessly rush into danger. Neither is the fun-loving, sexuality-flaunting Black Canary of Birds of Prey.


That's not where my concern lies, though. Sara was the Canary first in the show, and the meaning of the name comes from her, and Laurel got started by pretending to be her, and Sara is a much better character, in my opinion. So for me Sara will always be the real Canary, and Laurel the imitation.

 

[Dark Raven]

Maybe Felicity will be the true Black Canary we've all been waiting for.

 

[DeadFan]

Maybe Felicity will be the true Black Canary we've all been waiting for.

Strangely enough it appears the Olicity fandom has set up a GoFundMe for the writers. The writers are going to give the money to charity which is nice.

I think the DonnaQuentin ship was some kind of fan request. And Guggenheim said he got the name "Overwatch" from fans. Let's just hope these fans don't want Felicity as Black Canary!

 

[Dark Raven]

She will be, and will also use the name Dinah. Then Guggenheim will say that Ollie did end up with Black Canary in the end and her name was Dinah, so everything worked out eventually.

 

[O'Haire]

I think the DonnaQuentin ship was some kind of fan request. And Guggenheim said he got the name "Overwatch" from fans. Let's just hope these fans don't want Felicity as Black Canary!

we've never made decisions on the show creatively because of the internet - Guggenheim

Dude is so full of ****.

 

[Guard82]

She was one of my very favourite characters since season one. I like all the characters on the show in one way or another, but I likeLaurel, along with Oliver and Diggle much more than the other Team Arrow members. I like Felicity, Thea and Roy, as well as some other characters, but they do not interest anywhere near as much as Laurel, Oliver and Diggle. I loved how Laurel was such a tough character, who suffered through so much, but came out the other side stronger. She was a very loveable character, who just wanted to help other people and would risk a lot in order to do it. Her character development from season 1 to 4 was great to watch IMO. This is so **** and it is a massive loss for the show IMO. I will always think "what could have been?". It is a disgrace when you look at some of the "characters" that they have kept on the show.

I totally agree with this. Laurel was one of my favorite characters on the show, and I truly loved her journey throughout the series. I hate seeing her character gone, and I think it was a huge mistake on the part of the people who run the show.

 

[Guard82]

I just want to give a huge thank-you to Katie Cassidy for giving us a wonderful portrayal of Laurel Lance on this show the past four years. I thought she was a great Black Canary, and I loved just how much heart and joy she brought to the role. To me, Katie was truly convincing as the courageous, compassionate Laurel who constantly fought back against so much darkness and suffering in her life and always managed to come through it all stronger and more determined than ever. It was truly inspiring to watch her fight fiercely against all forms of injustice, first as a lawyer and later as a costumed hero. Also, Katie's incredibly warm smile and touching facial expressions always managed to further highlight Laurel's compassionate, empathetic nature.

I really enjoyed Katie's layered performances in which she showed Laurel to be both a good person and a flawed person, someone who often made mistakes but who had the strength of character to rise above her mistakes and continue to bravely pursue her goals of justice and compassion. No matter how much trouble life threw at her, she constantly stayed focused on helping those in need, doing everything in her power to protect the innocent and make her world a little bit better.

I'm unhappy with the show's decision to kill off Laurel, and I think it's a big mistake. Arrow has again been showing problems with weaker writing and mediocre romantic subplots lately, and for me, Laurel has been one of the few things I've consistently enjoyed this season even in the more mediocre episodes. I think getting rid of her character will probably hurt the show going forward, because it is already hurting in the writing department.

But regardless, I just want to say I loved Katie Cassidy's inspiring journey as Laurel Lance and as the Black Canary in this series. I'll definitely miss her, but I'll also be extremely grateful to her for giving us an incredibly strong, tough, heroic character who fought so hard to make the world a better place.

#LongLiveLaurelLance

 

[Ryder]

A perfect summation of Laurel's arc on the show and why her death matters, written by someone who is an unapologetic Olicity shipper:
http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/1...ow-4x18-review

And before people start ranting, the point I'm trying to make is that if an Olicity shipper can see the virtue in Laurel and her journey, those of us who actually like the character ought to be able to do likewise.

Yeah now that the blogger has finished her job, of putting the character in the coffin. 5 star entombment .

 

[Slade W]

Strangely enough it appears the Olicity fandom has set up a GoFundMe for the writers. The writers are going to give the money to charity which is nice.

I think the DonnaQuentin ship was some kind of fan request. And Guggenheim said he got the name "Overwatch" from fans. Let's just hope these fans don't want Felicity as Black Canary!

I must confess that I was guilty of wanting this too (I didn't tweet the writers saying this however, so don't lynch me). I thought the relationship had the potential to be a funny one, as I found Donna to be a funny character in season 3, and I think that Quentin can be quite funny too at times, with his comments and remarks. I also thought that they were going through with it in order to give Quentin some happiness before they killed him off, as it would have been quite fitting for his tragic character. In the end, unfortunately, none of this has happened and it did not play out how I had hoped at all.

 

[DigificWriter]

Yeah now that the blogger has finished her job, of putting the character in the coffin.

The fact that the author of that article happens to be an Olicity fan has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual substantive content of it, which you would know if you actually bothered to read it.

 

[Pokkle]

we've never made decisions on the show creatively because of the internet - Guggenheim

Dude is so full of ****.

Guggenheim is clearly a liar:
http://imgur.com/a/vpgr7

The olicity on the newspaper, the OTA, the weird thing with the fern, the horrible idea of having the terrible character Donna with Lance, etc

 

[Guard82]

In addition to the tribute I wrote for Katie/Laurel above, I also wanted to add that even though I didn't like the ending to the last episode and was unhappy about it, I loved a lot of the things in the episode. I thought Laurel and Thea had some awesome fight scenes where they double-teamed against their opponents and showed off some pretty awesome moves. And in addition to their great fight scenes together, the two of them had some sweet character moments where Laurel nicely played her role of big sister to Thea. It was good to see.

 

[DeadFan]

I must confess that I was guilty of wanting this too (I didn't tweet the writers saying this however, so don't lynch me). I thought the relationship had the potential to be a funny one, as I found Donna to be a funny character in season 3, and I think that Quentin can be quite funny too at times, with his comments and remarks. I also thought that they were going through with it in order to give Quentin some happiness before they killed him off, as it would have been quite fitting for his tragic character. In the end, unfortunately, none of this has happened and it did not play out how I had hoped at all.

Oh I think everyone has the right to want to see what they want on a show! Afterall, we watch for entertainment and enjoyment, among other reasons. And I even believe fans have the right to tweet what they'd like to see if that's what they want to do

I do think it's up to the writers to figure out how to deal with social media in order to best preserve their artistic creativity & integrity, whether that means educating themselves more about the use of bots on twitter, learning how sophisticated fans can try to manipulate writers by making coordinated social media campaign appeals to egos, understanding the effects of social media feedback on our brains (I mean afterall we all like praise & flattery and it's hard not to be drawn to and bond with those who give it to us....) etc.

Actually I think this "problem" (where writers are encouraged to interact with fans) is just going to get bigger so I think the TV studios (or whoever appropriate) could start helping these writers by having psychologists and sociologists etc who are experts in social media and how it influences us and our brains (there are studies that show the addictive tendencies to positive feedback from social media...) provide workshops and guidance for these writers & producers in the future.

If they are educated about what effects social media could have on them, then maybe they can be forewarned and be sure to use it wisely so that it works for them, the writers, instead of the writers working for the social media fans. Also would make sure they understand how bots can be used to generate buzz and make it appear that something is more "popular" than it really is. There are a lot of sophisticated social media user-fans out there and I think they can run circles around a lot of writers

 

[Verick808]

In Japan mangaka are taught to ignore requests made through fan mail because it isn't necessarily an accurate representation of their reader demographics. In fact it's generally from mainly female readers. Plus fans don't generally know what they want anyway.

 

[SpideyVille]

I initially thought the Donna/Lance relationship was there to give us another reason to feel bad once he died.

One thing I will say though, is that the only thing the writers have been consistent about throughout the series is their unpredictability. Every thought Tommy was going to be the Dark Archer, only for it to be revealed that it was his father, and then everyone expected him to pull a Harry Osborn, and instead, he was killed while Malcolm was ultimately alive. They brought back Sara, when we all thought Laurel would be the first time we saw a Canary, and they didn't kill her off in the Finale as expected. They had Shado and Moira both killed without any last minute intervention from someone.

So them choosing to kill Laurel, when we all expected Lance to die, was definitely in line with the type of shocking surprises they've done. One of the bigger issues is that the death was clearly spoiled a month before it aired. But the fact that they handled it the way that they did clearly shows a level of incompetence and disrespect towards a certain group of fans. I feel like there are much more believable cases to be made why killing Felicity at any point in this series makes more creative sense than killing Laurel. Not because it opens the door to a Lauriver ship, but because the opposite, because their relationship with each other was so non-existent in the past year and so full of disagreements that it doesn't seem like enough for him to feel compelled to go over the edge.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Even if the death hadn't been spoiled, they telegraphed the HELL out of it in the episode. They tried to wrap every single thread. I still laughed at how Laurels picture was originally about giving Oliver strength and hope in S1 and now it was what made him weak so he had to "let it go". So now he comes off as even worse in S1 to me.

 

[Primal Slayer]

 

[godisawesome]

That seems like a nice cover statement, but they kind of shot themselves in "Anyone can die because there are real consequences" foot with certain characters shaking off utterly impossible wounds without even remotely strong enough damage later. Laurel succumbing to normal wounds feels cheap after Merlyn and Oliver both shake off seemingly fatal chest wounds, and the latter getting another chest wound and plunging down a cliff.

 

[Paradox1]

That seems like a nice cover statement, but they kind of shot themselves in "Anyone can die because there are real consequences" foot with certain characters shaking off utterly impossible wounds without even remotely strong enough damage later. Laurel succumbing to normal wounds feels cheap after Merlyn and Oliver both shake off seemingly fatal chest wounds, and the latter getting another chest wound and plunging down a cliff.

Pretty much, they created rules for their universe in season one which was gritty and real. Then in the seasons to follow they kept breaking them and suddenly they want reinstitute those rules.

 

[DeadFan]

That seems like a nice cover statement, but they kind of shot themselves in "Anyone can die because there are real consequences" foot with certain characters shaking off utterly impossible wounds without even remotely strong enough damage later. Laurel succumbing to normal wounds feels cheap after Merlyn and Oliver both shake off seemingly fatal chest wounds, and the latter getting another chest wound and plunging down a cliff.

Yeah, Kreisberg may be sincere but there's no credibility for me in that statement when he starts dishing out the there have to be "real consequences" story line. No, there only have to be real consequences whenever Uncle Guggie decides there are going to be. Just glad I read online items or I'd have no idea just based on the show that suddenly now injuries and death are SERIOUS!

 

[aNarcHy2day]

Real consequences?

He remembers the time where Darhk's men basically riddled a car with bullets with Oliver and Felicity inside, right?

 

[Primal Slayer]

Go figure Laurel had one of her best fight scenes in her last episode alive