Discussion: Gay Rights II

[BlackLantern]

can I swear on a TPB of 'The Boys'?? it has become my bible

 

[Kelly]

sure......

 

[wiegeabo]

Another thing I can't stand is people using religion to justify their acts of prejudice. It's one thing to have convictions about homesexuality based on the Bible, but they are fooling themselves if they think it's ok to bash God's name.

"Hey, if you read your history, you know that god is one of the leading causes of death. Has been for thousands of years. Hindus, Moslems, Jews, Christians all taking turns killing each other, because god told them it was a good idea. The sword of god. The blood of the lamb. Vengeance is mine. Millions of dead mother****ers. All because they gave the wrong answer to the god Question:

Do you believe in god?

No.

BAM! Dead.

Do you believe in god?

Yes.

Do you believe in MY god?

No.

BAM! Dead!

My god has a bigger dick than your god."

- George Carlin

 

[Hobgoblin]

Organized religion wouldn't have to worry about people being bigoted against it if so many movements weren't responsible for many of the atrocities which occurred throughout history, though.

Many of which were committed centuries ago (not all of course, but many). Its time to move on. Besides, science, while still quite a new "belief" to appear on the scene, has done a good deal of damage itself. A lot of good, yes, but also a lot of damage has been done in its name. (Pollution, genocide, slavery, etc.)

The point is, we cant throw out the baby with the bath water. And this is the Gay Rights thread, not the Religion thread. I shouldnt even be fanning the flames.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Thats another thing that bugs me: Some people think "So many atrocities have been committed in religions name, so religion is bad." Religion is just as much a victim of the bigotry and hatred of some of its members as the people the bigots target. It gives the religion a bad name.

Religion is a great thing for those who need it. I firmly believe that religion is def a good thing, some people need it when all the chips are on the table, people need something to believe in sometimes, and i love that religion is there for them. But i do not believe in how religion has treated the uneducated in some cases (many religions over time have flocked to south america to help the poor... but end the end it's really just been about recruitment, and the poor and uneducated tend to be easily persuaded into whichever faith "helps them" the most. Such in case is what is happening with Mormonism currently down there.)

I'm fine with the good they do do, but i do not believe it should be about "hey im gonna build you a house, but you really should listen to this story i'm about to tell you", Nor do i believe in ones religious beliefs being pressured on by another. the obvious being the current situation, and to a lesser extent, i hate "recruitment" period. I can't walk down the promenade in Santa Monica without being stopped by a "recruiter" holding a card of "beliefs" and asking me to read it.

 

[The Senator]

Religious strife is also causing genocide in the Middle East and Africa and is responsible for denying billions of people human rights all across the planet. And all of this is going on right now, as we speak.

 

[wiegeabo]

Many of which were committed centuries ago (not all of course, but many). Its time to move on. Besides, science, while still quite a new "belief" to appear on the scene, has done a good deal of damage itself. A lot of good, yes, but also a lot of damage has been done in its name. (Pollution, genocide, slavery, etc.)

The point is, we cant throw out the baby with the bath water. And this is the Gay Rights thread, not the Religion thread. I shouldnt even be fanning the flames.

I don't see it as fanning the flames. A discussion of religion in this thread, at least to some degree, is a necessity because, whether the opponents admit it or not, religion is being used as a significant basis to deny gay marriage.

 

[The Senator]

I would also like to point out the most blatant hypocritical action committed by organized religion in the United States, perpetrated by none other than the Mormon church. In the late 1800s, the Mormons in Utah went to war against the United States because the federal government wanted to outlaw polygamy. Brigham Young's argument was that the government shouldn't dictate how the Mormons lead their lives, and proposed the secession of Utah from the United States in protest.

Now, less than a century and a half later, the Mormon church funded a high-profile assault against homosexuals with Proposition 8, completely refuting what their church apparently stood for under one of their glorious founding fathers.

If that isn't the spitting image of hypocrisy, I honestly don't know what is. And frankly, based on the Mormon church's history, homosexuals and gay allies have every right to act intolerant of the church's behavior.

 

[Kelly]

Mormon's voted...
Black's voted...
White's voted...
Hispanics voted...
Protestants voted...
Catholics voted...
Men voted...
Women voted...
Gay...
Straight...

They all did what they had the right to do....
IMO, that is not how to deal with this issue, it is a legislative issue at the national level...not a state's issue.

I find it hard to believe that the Mormon church changed people's minds...I still hold to the opinion that it was the black vote that changed those few percentage points, only because they voted for the first time in their lives, and many in the black community are very much in the order of "traditional family" for the most part.

I can assure you, the Mormon church did not change the minds of Protestants, because for the most part, they don't see the Mormon church as a viable Christian church...

So maybe the Mormon church, got the Mormon's out to vote....but whatever the reason, they voted and its their right to do so.

NOW, if someone can prove that the Mormon church paid for advertising, then that's a whole other thing, that is not about opinion, its about the law. If that can be proven, that's a whole other issue.

 

[The Senator]

Considering the Mormons were the ones who poured millions of dollars on ridiculous ad campaigns comparing homosexuality to polygamy-- of all arguments they could make-- I would assume that the Mormons indeed hold a heavy hand in this. They just did it legally, by funneling their money through the proper channels to assure that it funded the "Yes on 8" movement. And, even if they did break any laws, they wouldn't be charged for it... because organized religion can literally get away with murder in this country...

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Mormon's voted...
Black's voted...
White's voted...
Hispanics voted...

I find it hard to believe that the Mormon church changed people's minds...I still hold to the opinion that it was the black vote that changed those few percentage points, only because they voted for the first time in their lives, and many in the black community are very much in the order of "traditional family" for the most part.

I can assure you, the Mormon church did not change the minds of Protestants, because for the most part, they don't see the Mormon church as a viable Christian church...

So maybe the Mormon church, got the Mormon's out to vote....but whatever the reason, they voted and its their right to do so.

NOW, if someone can prove that the Mormon church paid for advertising, then that's a whole other thing, that is not about opinion, its about the law. If that can be proven, that's a whole other issue.

The mormon church donated gobs and gobs amounts of money, and alot of people didn't even care either way, till the mormon church, helped push the lie of Children being taught about gay marriage in elementary school (which was a complete bogus accusation, and it's what hurt the NO campaign the most. You can ask any of us here in cali who was leading the campaign in the beginning due to hard hitting adds, and it was us. The polls even showed it, it wasn't until the lie about the kids hit, that people suddenly got offended and took action.

tech the Mormon church did not donate money, but i consider a church who it is made up of, and it's followers donated a hell of alot, and pressed these adds.

 

[Kelly]

Well, taken care of at the legislative level, in Washington D.C. just like Women's Suffrage and Civil Rights.....then those types of influences will have less of an impact.

Kept, at the state level, Mormon's or not, there are many state's that it will never be made legal taking the road of popular vote.

 

[wiegeabo]

Living in California I can tell you that there were a few ads for Prop 8 before the Mormon church started throwing their funding in. And even though there were really no ads against Prop 8, polls showed the No vote had a lead.

Then, suddenly, there was a flood of Prop 8 commercials whose only argument was fear, and the polls started shifting.

The Mormon church provided 43% of the Prop 8 funding. So I think it's safe to say they had a distinct effect on the outcome of the vote.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Well, taken care of at the legislative level, in Washington D.C. just like Women's Suffrage and Civil Rights.....then those types of influences will have less of an impact.

Kept, at the state level, Mormon's or not, there are many state's that it will never be made legal taking the road of popular vote.

O part of me really hopes it goes to DC to help other states out, but it most likely will just get overturned in CA and then take a hault

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Living in California I can tell you that there were a few ads for Prop 8 before the Mormon church started throwing their funding in. And even though there were really no ads against Prop 8, polls showed the No vote had a lead.

Then, suddenly, there was a flood of Prop 8 commercials whose only argument was fear, and the polls started shifting.

The Mormon church provided 43% of the Prop 8 funding. So I think it's safe to say the had a distinct effect on the outcome of the vote.

This played quite frequently for a long time, before all the Yes on 8 stuff came rolling in...
[YT]BkhhD6Gqz34[/YT]

 

[wiegeabo]

Never saw that ad. Don't think I saw a single No ad until sometime in October.

At which point I was getting quite fed up with all the Yes crap.

 

[Kelly]

I would also be mad at the people who have money, who support gay rights, yet spent no money for this campaign...

I saw a few celebrities speaking up, where was the voice of the others, where was their money?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Never saw that ad. Don't think I saw a single No ad until sometime in October.

At which point I was getting quite fed up with all the Yes crap.

that add started playing during the olympics, and was pretty much on channels like NBC/ABC/CW/etc... during prime time, and mornings

 

[wiegeabo]

that add started playing during the olympics, and was pretty much on channels like NBC/ABC/CW/etc... during prime time, and mornings

That says something to me. I could watch pretty much any channel, anytime during the day, and see multiple Prop 8 ads. But I didn't start seeing No ads until just a few weeks before the vote.


Both sides put $38 million into this campaign. A campaign to deny people equal rights. I wonder what else that money could have been used for. Apparently, there was nothing more pressing going on for the churches to spend their money. Like charities or anything.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I would also be mad at the people who have money, who support gay rights, yet spent no money for this campaign...

I saw a few celebrities speaking up, where was the voice of the others, where was their money?

that upset me as well.. alot did speak up, and alot have marched with us, but i felt more, especially the gay ones. I felt like Ellen should have done alot more, but then again shes more then just herself... she's also a corporation. I would have loved to see Oprah speak out though.. (though shes strait)

 

[Marx]

I would also like to point out the most blatant hypocritical action committed by organized religion in the United States, perpetrated by none other than the Mormon church. In the late 1800s, the Mormons in Utah went to war against the United States because the federal government wanted to outlaw polygamy. Brigham Young's argument was that the government shouldn't dictate how the Mormons lead their lives, and proposed the secession of Utah from the United States in protest.

Now, less than a century and a half later, the Mormon church funded a high-profile assault against homosexuals with Proposition 8, completely refuting what their church apparently stood for under one of their glorious founding fathers.

If that isn't the spitting image of hypocrisy, I honestly don't know what is. And frankly, based on the Mormon church's history, homosexuals and gay allies have every right to act intolerant of the church's behavior.

Interesting. Isn't it?

 

[Hobgoblin]

I'll say that the major problem in the world isnt religion or science. Its greed, self centeredness (general "my way is better than your way" thinking) and bigotry.

I'm not big on Bible quotes, but I always liked "Look not for the splinter in your neighbor's eye. Look for the log in your own."

 

[The Mighty Wind]

Gays should have the right to marry, and the right to adopt. Numerous studies have shown that there's no effect, negative or positive, from homosexual parents.

That this is still an issue is just silly.

 

[Matt]

my thoughts on gay marriage and adoption

why the hell not? most people cant keep their own damn marriages in order or raise their kids properly so who the hell are they to judge how other people do it? Are homosexuals not human? Are they not entitled to the same rights granted to all in the constitution are all men not created equal? The fact that we are treating these people as less than human makes me disgusted to be an American. We are supposd to be the greatest country on earth! The land of opportunity yet we are depriving people the basic right to have their union with the person they love recognized to ensure they get the same rights as everyone else! We are treating them like second class citizens...not even...second class citizens can marry. We are establishing an institutionalized discrimination and treating these poor people like animals and it is wrong!

 

[Kelly]

Gays should have the right to marry, and the right to adopt. Numerous studies have shown that there's no effect, negative or positive, from homosexual parents.

That this is still an issue is just silly.

See, I would rather the right to adopt be passed FIRST......NATIONWIDE.