Discussion: Torture

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People have been wrongly imprisoned some even sent to special countries for "extra" interrogation. That's just a fact.

If it was as cut and dry as you're making it out to be I'd be with you on this. It isn't like people have special "I'm a terrorist leader" tattooes on their foreheads.

People are wrongly imprisoned. They are not wrongly accused of being a terrorist leader.

While they don't have special tattoos, or whatever, for someone to be considered a "terrorist leader", it requires a history of terrorist works and leadership. Being caught for the first time isn't enough for the CIA or anyone to assume you are a leader.
 
People are wrongly imprisoned. They are not wrongly accused of being a terrorist leader.

While they don't have special tattoos, or whatever, for someone to be considered a "terrorist leader", it requires a history of terrorist works and leadership. Being caught for the first time isn't enough for the CIA or anyone to assume you are a leader.

But it is apparently enough for them to black bag your ass, ship you to a country without funny things like laws or rights then torture the crap out of you till they decide?

Again we go back to the witch trials. If you're torturing me in some place where I have no chance at anything approaching rights, I'll tell you I'm a terrorist leader just to make you stop. Now maybe, eventually, a few years down the road you might get around to filtering enough data to determine I'm not really a terrorist at all, but at that point it doesn't matter cause you just made me one.
 
But it is apparently enough for them to black bag your ass, ship you to a country without funny things like laws or rights then torture the crap out of you till they decide?

Again we go back to the witch trials. If you're torturing me in some place where I have no chance at anything approaching rights, I'll tell you I'm a terrorist leader just to make you stop. Now maybe, eventually, a few years down the road you might get around to filtering enough data to determine I'm not really a terrorist at all, but at that point it doesn't matter cause you just made me one.

I will return back to my previous sentiments - I am bored with this topic.
 
I will return back to my previous sentiments - I am bored with this topic.

I never understood why people say stuff like this. If you don't want to post anymore why explain that you're doing that. Wouldn't not posting be enough? Also when you inevitably post again, probably in the next five minutes or so, it just looks a little silly.

I mean, I get it, defending torture is kinda a lonely position to take with few supporters. You've got Newt, Dick, Stalin and Vlad the Impaler but that's about it. Personally I kinda like being the only one on a side, really tests your beliefs (if your actually open) but then again I've always been pretty damn weird (but so attractive I get away with it).

Good response though, excellent counter to how torture does far more harm then good and weakens us as a nation while providing enormous amounts of bad intel which not only ties up resources but gives us so much to shift through important intel is devalued to just another thing on the checklist to look into. Maybe if that plane memo wasn't with 5 billion others it would have made an impact? Maybe what we need to do in concentrate on getting good intel to begin with through reliable methods our own military hasn't already said is completely ineffective and detramental to intelligence gathering? Maybe.
 
I never understood why people say stuff like this. If you don't want to post anymore why explain that you're doing that. Wouldn't not posting be enough? Also when you inevitably post again, probably in the next five minutes or so, it just looks a little silly.

By saying "I am done" it gives closure. I know that when I am in the middle of a discussion, I get a bit peeved when I see the same poster I am trading barbs with going off and posting on other topics, leaving out discussion un-ended. By saying "I am done", I had hoped to let you know that...well...I am done.

I mean, I get it, defending torture is kinda a lonely position to take with few supporters. You've got Newt, Dick, Stalin and Vlad the Impaler but that's about it. Personally I kinda like being the only one on a side, really tests your beliefs (if your actually open) but then again I've always been pretty damn weird (but so attractive I get away with it).

I have no problem being the only one of the side, I am not done of discussing the issue out of some feeling of isolation. I just can only make the same point so many times. Once again,I feel I have explained my position on the issue as well as I can - since you had brought up a fair question to my stance, I had no problem responding. If you bring up another point I find to be valid, I will respond again.

Good response though, excellent counter to how torture does far more harm then good and weakens us as a nation while providing enormous amounts of bad intel which not only ties up resources but gives us so much to shift through important intel is devalued to just another thing on the checklist to look into. Maybe if that plane memo wasn't with 5 billion others it would have made an impact? Maybe what we need to do in concentrate on getting good intel to begin with through reliable methods our own military hasn't already said is completely ineffective and detramental to intelligence gathering? Maybe.

If we could identify bad intel from good intel by simply looking at it, or sacrificing some animal or another, I would have no problem with that. But information typically needs to be analyzed before being dismissed or accepted.

The goal, the concentration, of our intelligence services is and forever has been getting good intel.
 
By saying "I am done" it gives closure. I know that when I am in the middle of a discussion, I get a bit peeved when I see the same poster I am trading barbs with going off and posting on other topics, leaving out discussion un-ended. By saying "I am done", I had hoped to let you know that...well...I am done.

the robot devil finds this ironic.

I have no problem being the only one of the side, I am not done of discussing the issue out of some feeling of isolation. I just can only make the same point so many times. Once again,I feel I have explained my position on the issue as well as I can - since you had brought up a fair question to my stance, I had no problem responding. If you bring up another point I find to be valid, I will respond again.

I just don't understand how you can justify hurting innocents along with the guilty. You might think it saves lives but how much does it cost? We are fueling terrorism with this type of ****. Now I'm not talking psycho types, cause they're crazy anyway, but it's the moderates that could be reasoned with that we lose completely with this type of thing.

If we could identify bad intel from good intel by simply looking at it, or sacrificing some animal or another, I would have no problem with that. But information typically needs to be analyzed before being dismissed or accepted.

The goal, the concentration, of our intelligence services is and forever has been getting good intel.

Maybe if we didn't collect every ****ing thing on the planet and sort it out piece by piece we could actually accomplish something. Maybe if we didn't grab anyone that might be a terrorist and just start torturing them to see what falls out we could concentrate on the actual bad guys. If we're using intel from torture it's already horribably tainted and unreliable at best cause people will say anything when being tortured. You'd think we could be more clever than this. **** I'm smarter than the CIA apparently cause I'm gonna give you an example of how to extract info well and realiably:

Rather than harsh living conditions and such place these people in adequate prisons and such (the less harsh and combatative an envirnment the greater the chance people will let their guard down). Next put a few plants in the envirnment (CIA trained arab americans pretending to be terrorists). Now bug the crap out of the place. Finally, lie to the people and tell them we're giving them standard US citizen rights which include the right to an attorney. Use CIA lawyers for this. This would equal huge amounts of reliable intel and all without resorting to torture. Rather than brute force outthink your opponents and get them to defeat themselves for you. I'm a big art of war buff though.

I mean we're the United ****ing States of America we can do better than this morally, effectively, intelligently and logically.
 
the robot devil finds this ironic.



I just don't understand how you can justify hurting innocents along with the guilty. You might think it saves lives but how much does it cost? We are fueling terrorism with this type of ****. Now I'm not talking psycho types, cause they're crazy anyway, but it's the moderates that could be reasoned with that we lose completely with this type of thing.



Maybe if we didn't collect every ****ing thing on the planet and sort it out piece by piece we could actually accomplish something. Maybe if we didn't grab anyone that might be a terrorist and just start torturing them to see what falls out we could concentrate on the actual bad guys. If we're using intel from torture it's already horribably tainted and unreliable at best cause people will say anything when being tortured. You'd think we could be more clever than this. **** I'm smarter than the CIA apparently cause I'm gonna give you an example of how to extract info well and realiably:

Rather than harsh living conditions and such place these people in adequate prisons and such (the less harsh and combatative an envirnment the greater the chance people will let their guard down). Next put a few plants in the envirnment (CIA trained arab americans pretending to be terrorists). Now bug the crap out of the place. Finally, lie to the people and tell them we're giving them standard US citizen rights which include the right to an attorney. Use CIA lawyers for this. This would equal huge amounts of reliable intel and all without resorting to torture. Rather than brute force outthink your opponents and get them to defeat themselves for you. I'm a big art of war buff though.

I mean we're the United ****ing States of America we can do better than this morally, effectively, intelligently and logically.

well said....
 
the robot devil finds this ironic.



I just don't understand how you can justify hurting innocents along with the guilty. You might think it saves lives but how much does it cost? We are fueling terrorism with this type of ****. Now I'm not talking psycho types, cause they're crazy anyway, but it's the moderates that could be reasoned with that we lose completely with this type of thing.



Maybe if we didn't collect every ****ing thing on the planet and sort it out piece by piece we could actually accomplish something. Maybe if we didn't grab anyone that might be a terrorist and just start torturing them to see what falls out we could concentrate on the actual bad guys. If we're using intel from torture it's already horribably tainted and unreliable at best cause people will say anything when being tortured. You'd think we could be more clever than this. **** I'm smarter than the CIA apparently cause I'm gonna give you an example of how to extract info well and realiably:

Rather than harsh living conditions and such place these people in adequate prisons and such (the less harsh and combatative an envirnment the greater the chance people will let their guard down). Next put a few plants in the envirnment (CIA trained arab americans pretending to be terrorists). Now bug the crap out of the place. Finally, lie to the people and tell them we're giving them standard US citizen rights which include the right to an attorney. Use CIA lawyers for this. This would equal huge amounts of reliable intel and all without resorting to torture. Rather than brute force outthink your opponents and get them to defeat themselves for you. I'm a big art of war buff though.

I mean we're the United ****ing States of America we can do better than this morally, effectively, intelligently and logically.

Great retort to the typical Red brick wall, man! Bravo.
 
the robot devil finds this ironic.

The Robot Devil's appreciation of irony is well known.

I just don't understand how you can justify hurting innocents along with the guilty. You might think it saves lives but how much does it cost? We are fueling terrorism with this type of ****. Now I'm not talking psycho types, cause they're crazy anyway, but it's the moderates that could be reasoned with that we lose completely with this type of thing.

Very easily.

I mean we're the United ****ing States of America we can do better than this morally, effectively, intelligently and logically.

See, I don't buy into this. I love this country because of what it is, not because of some painted idealistic vision that never existed. The United States is the beacon of the free world, but it has done some bad things to become that beacon. And that's okay. The world is nasty and unfair and cruel. Sometimes you have to do bad things to protect the good.
 
Wars will happen even without your support, nor do they need your support to be won
 
And whether you consider "the ends justifies the means" to be a myth or not, that rational is going to be employed by leaders all around the world.
 
So in the end nothing changes. I see nothing to respect in any leader, and the leaders don't give a **** about anything except making a legacy.
 
See, I don't buy into this. I love this country because of what it is, not because of some painted idealistic vision that never existed. The United States is the beacon of the free world, but it has done some bad things to become that beacon. And that's okay. The world is nasty and unfair and cruel. Sometimes you have to do bad things to protect the good.

I laid out a plan that cops have used for a damn long time very effectively, which would have provided more intel reliably and would have allowed us to keep that moral high ground. What's more once the terrorists found out what we had done it would have fostered a level of distrust and discord amongst themselves which would have inhibited them from planning much in the future without mass paranoia and infighting. What's more we wouldn't have to ****ing torture anyone. Win, win, win, ****ing win. How is torture better than that in anyway?
 
I laid out a plan that cops have used for a damn long time very effectively, which would have provided more intel reliably and would have allowed us to keep that moral high ground. What's more once the terrorists found out what we had done it would have fostered a level of distrust and discord amongst themselves which would have inhibited them from planning much in the future without mass paranoia and infighting. What's more we wouldn't have to ****ing torture anyone. Win, win, win, ****ing win. How is torture better than that in anyway?

I would rather have BOTH options on the table.
 
You can't torture and use the method I outlined, one or the other. Either the CIA is as smart as standard police detectives or they're brutish tormentors. What I laid out cannot work under harsh conditions it involves deception and trickery which can only be accomplished by giving the terrorists an envirnment in which they let their guard down and talk amongst themselves. The lawyer thing would be paticularly effective, but lying about giving them civil rights doesn't hold water when you just got done being tortured. Which would you prefer a smart isolated strategy that allows the terrorists to give us what we need while at the same time sewing paranoia and disention in their ranks or torture which our military says hurts intel gathering but tarnishes our image, helps recruit more terrorists and gives them something to unify themselves with?
 
You can't torture and use the method I outlined, one or the other. Either the CIA is as smart as standard police detectives or they're brutish tormentors. What I laid out cannot work under harsh conditions it involves deception and trickery which can only be accomplished by giving the terrorists an envirnment in which they let their guard down and talk amongst themselves. The lawyer thing would be paticularly effective, but lying about giving them civil rights doesn't hold water when you just got done being tortured. Which would you prefer a smart isolated strategy that allows the terrorists to give us what we need while at the same time sewing paranoia and disention in their ranks or torture which our military says hurts intel gathering but tarnishes our image, helps recruit more terrorists and gives them something to unify themselves with?

We have only waterbording three detainees. Torture is not common practice...at all.
 
You think we've only waterboarded three detaniees based on what the CIA has released. Common sense speaks otherwise. Plus those doubtful figures only applied to Gitmo, what about those people we transfered to other countries to get around our own laws? Think they were just taken out for tea? Think being transfered to Turkey and being dealt with there might have even been more unpleasant? I do.

But it's beside the point and the point being I laid out a damn good stategy which would have the terrorist just ****ing tell us what we need to know, but I can only work if they think we're *****es that are all about giving them the same rights and respect as a standard US citizen and that can't work if even one person isn't treated that way. Lull them into false confidence, make them drop their guard and reveal themselves then exploit that while telling them how stupid they were.

^this is the basic strategy used by every military genius throughout history. Don't use brute force when you can make the enemy defeat themselves. Don't give them something to rally behind, make them seperate and grow suspecious of each other. Sew disillusionment amongst their followers but don't give them something they can use against you. The greatest victory, and the only perfect victory, is to defeat the enemy without losing anything but taking everything from them. Every single leader in government should be required to read the art of war every ****ing year.
 
You think we've only waterboarded three detaniees based on what the CIA has released. Common sense speaks otherwise. Plus those doubtful figures only applied to Gitmo, what about those people we transfered to other countries to get around our own laws? Think they were just taken out for tea? Think being transfered to Turkey and being dealt with there might have even been more unpleasant? I do.

But it's beside the point and the point being I laid out a damn good stategy which would have the terrorist just ****ing tell us what we need to know, but I can only work if they think we're *****es that are all about giving them the same rights and respect as a standard US citizen and that can't work if even one person isn't treated that way. Lull them into false confidence, make them drop their guard and reveal themselves then exploit that while telling them how stupid they were.

^this is the basic strategy used by every military genius throughout history. Don't use brute force when you can make the enemy defeat themselves. Don't give them something to rally behind, make them seperate and grow suspecious of each other. Sew disillusionment amongst their followers but don't give them something they can use against you. The greatest victory, and the only perfect victory, is to defeat the enemy without losing anything but taking everything from them. Every single leader in government should be required to read the art of war every ****ing year.

I have been trying to find your plan, I remember the basic details but would enjoy looking it over again.

I am not a torture-first guy. I want the CIA to use as effective interrogation measures they can, and I DON'T think that torture is the most effective way to extract information. I just don't want it off the table. If all else fails, if all other practical forms of interrogation are proven ineffective, that's when I have little problem with the CIA bringing out the drowning.
 
Despite the evidence that information obtained through torture is unreliable and torture itself is illegal.

I do not give the CIA or any government organization the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I don't think I've ever come across any person or other entity that has earned the benefit of the doubt.
 
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