Discussion: Torture

[Addendum]

So because someone from the government says this works, you just go along with it

 

[StorminNorman]

If you can't trust the government, who can you trust?

Right?

Right?

Well government and religion.

 

[Addendum]

If you can't trust the government, who can you trust?

Right?

Right?

Well government and religion.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

As for the government and cults, neither has merited any trust from me.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I have been trying to find your plan, I remember the basic details but would enjoy looking it over again.

I am not a torture-first guy. I want the CIA to use as effective interrogation measures they can, and I DON'T think that torture is the most effective way to extract information. I just don't want it off the table. If all else fails, if all other practical forms of interrogation are proven ineffective, that's when I have little problem with the CIA bringing out the drowning.

Maybe if we didn't collect every ****ing thing on the planet and sort it out piece by piece we could actually accomplish something. Maybe if we didn't grab anyone that might be a terrorist and just start torturing them to see what falls out we could concentrate on the actual bad guys. If we're using intel from torture it's already horribably tainted and unreliable at best cause people will say anything when being tortured. You'd think we could be more clever than this. **** I'm smarter than the CIA apparently cause I'm gonna give you an example of how to extract info well and realiably:

Rather than harsh living conditions and such place these people in adequate prisons and such (the less harsh and combatative an envirnment the greater the chance people will let their guard down). Next put a few plants in the envirnment (CIA trained arab americans pretending to be terrorists). Now bug the crap out of the place. Finally, lie to the people and tell them we're giving them standard US citizen rights which include the right to an attorney. Use CIA lawyers for this. This would equal huge amounts of reliable intel and all without resorting to torture. Rather than brute force outthink your opponents and get them to defeat themselves for you. I'm a big art of war buff though.

I mean we're the United ****ing States of America we can do better than this morally, effectively, intelligently and logically.

Now if we're saying just not off the table that I agree with. For the person buried alive senario or ticking time bomb ****, by all means go all Jack Bauer. I just don't like torture as what seems like a crutch, it's lazy and hurts as much as it helps. If we torture someone it should be to stop something massive that we know about and is impending not just to gather intel.

 

[StorminNorman]

Now if we're saying just not off the table that I agree with. For the person buried alive senario or ticking time bomb ****, by all means go all Jack Bauer. I just don't like torture as what seems like a crutch, it's lazy and hurts as much as it helps. If we torture someone it should be to stop something massive that we know about and is impending not just to gather intel.

Then we are in complete agreement!

 

[moraldeficiency]

If you agree that we haven't had that yet and those people should not have been tortured then yes we are. Also after ten waterboardings if someone isn't talking give it up, being brutal just for brutality's sake is idiotic.

 

[StorminNorman]

If you agree that we haven't had that yet and those people should not have been tortured then yes we are. Also after ten waterboardings if someone isn't talking give it up, being brutal just for brutality's sake is idiotic.

I think the best use of Waterbording was KSM. I could be wrong, but I believe there was reason to believe Al Queda WAS targeting the American West Coast - KSM, again if I recall correctly, mocked his interrogators whenever they asked about such a plan. Something along the lines of "oh you will see".

In that instance, I would absolutely support waterbording the son of a *****.

 

[moraldeficiency]

If that's true I want that info released so we don't look like torture prone *****es. If there's a nuke in NY and you've got an hour and this guy won't tell you were it is (If you know he knows) then yeah torture that out of the ***** (but in those cases don't ****ing waterboard start losing digits), but when you're done tell people why.

Though, "oh you will see" isn't exactly enough of a ticking time bomb to merit those actions.

 

[Addendum]

"ticking time bomb scenarios" only exist in works of fiction: 24, Splinter Cell, Metal Gear, and others

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yeah. Ticking timebomb situations are meant to build the action, and get the reader/viewer climbing up in suspense.

Is that where the theory about being able to torture people came from? Or were they from real situations we found ourselves in?

Splinter Cell and 24 do the ticking timebomb thing pretty well.

 

[Paradyme]

Have you, or are you working for the CIA?

If you have something to prove that claim I'd like to take a look at it because I find it incredibly hard to believe there are "no ticking time-bomb" situations.

I'm being serious and in no way do I mean to sound condescending.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

W. Going after Obama?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/18/bush-breaks-silence-goes_n_217271.html

"I told you I'm not going to criticize my successor," he said. "I'll just tell you that there are people at Gitmo that will kill American people at a drop of a hat and I don't believe that persuasion isn't going to work. Therapy isn't going to cause terrorists to change their mind."

ABC News has pointed out that it was the Bush administration that sent terrorists to therapy -- a Saudi jihadi rehabilitation camp -- with "decidedly mixed success."

Bush's critique extended to Obama's domestic policy.

"Government does not create wealth," Bush said. "The major role for the government is to create an environment where people take risks to expand the job rate in the United States."

Asked during a question-and-answer session if he thought his successor's policies were "socialist," Bush began saying "depends on..." then stopped and concluded, "We'll see."

 

[Addendum]

Have you, or are you working for the CIA?

If you have something to prove that claim I'd like to take a look at it because I find it incredibly hard to believe there are "no ticking time-bomb" situations.

I'm being serious and in no way do I mean to sound condescending.

I rely on those who have handled interrogations, who have worked in the intelligence field, and none of them experienced a "ticking time bomb scenario".

I always see that in works of fiction, where the hero has to save the day, otherwise why waste time telling the story

 

[Paradyme]

I rely on those who have handled interrogations, who have worked in the intelligence field, and none of them experienced a "ticking time bomb scenario".

I always see that in works of fiction, where the hero has to save the day, otherwise why waste time telling the story

Are these people you've met? Or is there an article or some info they've written down that explains that?

I'm just interested.

I meant in general not necessarily towards reasonings for interrogations. I doubt the CIA torture these people every day past a certain point but maybe I'm being naive. I'd imagine your (terrorists) intel or knowledge of what is going on in a terrorist camp lasts for very long. I would hope, and maybe this is a perfect world view, that if they had credible intel that something was going down, they would use torture of some crazy sort to get their information. Stuff like Moral stated.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I think whenever we hear ticking timebomb situation...we automatically think about the situations in movies, games and books. Because that's all we got to come up with.

I wonder if ticking timebomb situations are just as fast and of the moment...which I would imagine everything is on the table for.

Forget torture. In a real life ticking timebomb like in fiction, I think it'd go way further than torture.

 

[Paradyme]

I really don't know if there are or not. When I think of ticking timebomb situations I think of an imminent attack within a week. I don't really want to say this because frankly I don't know but I doubt its ever down to a 24 hour period. In that case we employ Mr. Bauer.

 

[Nivek]

If that's true I want that info released so we don't look like torture prone *****es. If there's a nuke in NY and you've got an hour and this guy won't tell you were it is (If you know he knows) then yeah torture that out of the ***** (but in those cases don't ****ing waterboard start losing digits), but when you're done tell people why.

Though, "oh you will see" isn't exactly enough of a ticking time bomb to merit those actions.

This is exactly how I feel about this. There are times for extreme measures, but everything the Bush Administration did was the wrong way of going about it.

I think the people defending it's use in these cases got too much Jack Bauer fiction on the brain to really grasp how seriously messed up Torture really is. If your trying to debate with someone who cannot process the reality of the situation, you are not going to get through to them, they are far too deluded and for the most part need to be tortured themselves in order to process it (Like that Mancow chump). It's not a prank, it's trying to kill you without killing you, to bring you to that point that your survival instinct overrides your willpower. But most Red's just see fictional Jack Bauer saving the day, and not noticing the fictional character is a psychopath with a paper thin moral code.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

The example I've heard a hundred times is what if they've kidnapped you wife and kids and are going to kill them in a few hours, then would torture them??

 

[Nivek]

Most people think they would, but you have to be missing something that a lot of people have in them in order to do that kind of thing. All kind of people talk the talk, but only a small percentage would carry through.

Seeing elected officials mention Jack Bauer style interrogation makes me wonder why no one has mentioned Batman style hanging off the side of a building style interrogations as well? Your bringing up fictional character solving real life problems, c'mon, let's skip to the chase! I know I'll take Batman effecting real world human rights policy than Jack any day.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, I'm pretty sure I'd kill hundreds of people to save my family.

Innocent or guilty.

And just because I'm willing to do it...doesn't mean I'm right. Some say that's the thing about justice and the law, not having people use they're emotion but they're brains.

I think using the "save your family" theory kinda makes it all like Jigsaw is pulling strings or something.

 

[kytrigger]

Are these people you've met? Or is there an article or some info they've written down that explains that?

I'm just interested.

I meant in general not necessarily towards reasonings for interrogations. I doubt the CIA torture these people every day past a certain point but maybe I'm being naive. I'd imagine your (terrorists) intel or knowledge of what is going on in a terrorist camp lasts for very long. I would hope, and maybe this is a perfect world view, that if they had credible intel that something was going down, they would use torture of some crazy sort to get their information. Stuff like Moral stated.

When you say "ticking time bomb" are your being more literal, or just want something against the clock? I know for a fact there have been times where while there was no bomb, we had had a limited amount of time to accomplish a mission. usually it involved credible intelligence that a Taliban commander or a major negative influencer was in a specific place for only a short amount of time. We know these people were orchestrated attacks against both US and NATO troops along with teh Afghan government itself.

While no literal ticking time bomb, there are plenty of times I have seen time sensitive missions.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I think literal ticking time bomb, but it might depend on who's speaking though.

But, I think the premise is usually that there's a bomb somewhere in the U.S., and it's going to go off...and someone knows where it is.

And that someone should get tortured.

I think that's the premise, but I've seen people use the term for time sensitive situations overall. It's a pretty wide open term I think.

But, again it depends on who's speaking.

 

[Bathead]

Well, I'm pretty sure I'd kill hundreds of people to save my family.

Innocent or guilty.

And just because I'm willing to do it...doesn't mean I'm right. Some say that's the thing about justice and the law, not having people use they're emotion but they're brains.

I think using the "save your family" theory kinda makes it all like Jigsaw is pulling strings or something.

True enough. The main flaw with the "save your family" theory is yes, of course, most would be willing to do anything to save their family, the problem lies in that after you act, under American law, you would be promptly arrested, prosecuted, and if found guilty, would be sent to prison. No excuses. The prosecutors would no doubt be sympathetic, but would, under the law, have no choice but to bust you for it, because it's illegal.

 

[Paradyme]

When you say "ticking time bomb" are your being more literal, or just want something against the clock? I know for a fact there have been times where while there was no bomb, we had had a limited amount of time to accomplish a mission. usually it involved credible intelligence that a Taliban commander or a major negative influencer was in a specific place for only a short amount of time. We know these people were orchestrated attacks against both US and NATO troops along with teh Afghan government itself.

While no literal ticking time bomb, there are plenty of times I have seen time sensitive missions.

I meant it more in the sense of time sensitive missions. Thats weird I must've dreamt or thought of responding to this but never did.

 

[kytrigger]

I meant it more in the sense of time sensitive missions. Thats weird I must've dreamt or thought of responding to this but never did.

In that case, there are plenty of time sensitive missions. Many of them can also either directly or indirectly save lives, although never on the scale that you see on tv.