The Dark Knight Rises Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

[milost]

Johnathan Nolan says in the screenplay book that Talia left with Bane when he was excommunicated. She was excommunicated TOO because she has the branding scar that Ra's gave her. Ya know, the one fake Ra's was going to give Bruce at his ceremony in Begins (read the screenplays). So no, I didn't infer a damn thing here. Bane and Talia weren't estranged. Hell, if you think the way you do, where was Talia at the monestary while Bruce was training there? She wasn't. If she wasn't there, where was she? Why would Bane and Talia just split when this stupid plan of theirs was clearly years in the making (atleast 3 or 4)?

Talia and Bane were together. It was clearly their brain child where Bane carried out her plans. She knew about Pavel, financed the bomb, she's at the stock exchange (waiting for all the people that look for deep meanings in the movie to tell me that's not her), she loathes Dagget, she's involved in the plan every step of the way. All Bane does is the dirty work. Captures Pavel, does that weird diamond **** for Dagget, commits the Stock Exchange hostage situation, etc. He's there so that Talia can run Wayne Enterprises and have Bruce and Fox foolishly let her own the bomb. Tell me I'm wrong here and that isn't their little plan to a T. Tate has that whole speech about her past with Bruce, you think it's conjecture that her wealth and experience wasn't used by Bane when everything else has been (father, origin, escape, training)?


Let's say Bane did all these lovely militaristic things all by himself. The fact remains that Nolan and Co. fool the audience into thinking that this character is like his comic counterpart. He's not. The prison is the biggest part of Bane's background and it's not even close in the movie. He wasn't there because of his dad, he didn't build himself up, he didn't have the strength to escape. Boom. Done. Whatever BS post-LoS training we can dream up still doesn't change the fact that the characterization in the movie is inferior to what was in those comics. Bane's background is literally twisted for a twist. Instead we got a guy wrapped in a towel, sitting on the floor a bloody mess while young Ra's leans in to bring him back to the surface. LoS even gave him that stupid mask and back wrap according to the deleted scenes! Talia has to put her friends tubes back in while he cries! This is a weak and pathetic character that he is reduced to a thug with a deathwish for a man that loathed him. No amount of speeches or backbreaking can make up for it.

 

[TheBlur]

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally, but you merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man; by then it was nothing to me but blinding! The shadows betray you, because they belong to me!"

Pretty sure Bane was also born in the Pit. I've always assumed that that's why he became Talia's protector, because she was also a child born in the Pit. He related to her, he saw himself in her; he didn't want her to turn into the monster that he did. He was trying to prevent another child from sharing his fate and becoming a ruthless person.

 

[milost]

So because he utters "I was born in the darkness", we're just meant to assume he experienced the same situation as Talia? For all we know, the Nolans and Goyer added that so people would be convinced that was him in the flashback origin stories for Talia. Why should we believe Bane when everything he says is a lie and all talk? We're even told by the pit prisoners that "Bane wouldn't want this story told". Why the hell not? His dad wasn't the mercenary. That wasn't his mom. It's the story of Talia? For all we know, Bane could have taken on Talia's experience and made it his own. Maybe for his opponents, maybe as a legend for the prisoners. One thing is for certain, that origin isn't his. He also didn't escape or build himself up to escape.

And yeah, he did a great job from protecting Talia from becoming the evil, suicidal, ruthless monster he was. A real good job.

If he had cared about innocence, he wouldn't be carrying out the atrocities he was committing and letting Talia commit. That's why he's so weak and pathetic. He has no moral code. I could see if he rebelled against Ra's and the League and wanted to be this renegade, revolutionary that valued human life, but he doesn't. He's a terrorist that wants to blow the city sky high for his girl and her father that hated him for being "a monster".

 

[BatLobster]

Jonathan Nolan said that? Really? Honestly, I didn't know that. This could change my interpretation of events. I have no recollection of hearing the Nolans or Goyer speak about Talia at ALL, so that'd be interesting to check out. Do you have a link or do you just own the book?

But obviously Talia left the League on her own. I never said she stayed a member of the LoS all those years, obviously she was gone by the time Ra's recruited Bruce. That's different from both of them being kicked out which is what you said. It's easily possible that she stayed behind longer, while her anger towards daddy festered until she couldn't take it anymore and abandoned ship. Unless of course Jonathan Nolan says otherwise. I'll happily yield to the J-Nol.

And like you said, 3-4 years of planning. We don't even know exactly where in the timeline Ra's took Bane and Talia in. Seems like it'd be years before Begins, probably when Talia was a teenager. So I still feel like there's a big narrative gap there in terms of what they were up to prior to the death of Ra's and assuming leadership of the LoS together. That's the gray area that I'm referring to.

And if anything...if Bane and Talia were traveling the world together all those years, that just makes me think that the wealth they accumulated was all thanks to Bane's mercenary work, which makes him even more crucial to everything. If not then there's literally no reason for him to have become a mercenary in the first place, if they already had a big pile of money to play with.

And yeah, he did a great job from protecting Talia from becoming the evil, suicidal monster he was.

I happen to agree with TheBlur. He has no reason to lie to Bruce there. And I think it's tragic...he didn't know that the child's father was an extremist/terrorist. It's like both of them were children of hell, fated to becoming evil.

 

[shauner111]

Johnathan Nolan says in the screenplay book that Talia left with Bane when he was excommunicated. She was excommunicated TOO because she has the branding scar that Ra's gave her. Ya know, the one fake Ra's was going to give Bruce at his ceremony in Begins (read the screenplays). So no, I didn't infer a damn thing here. Bane and Talia weren't estranged. Hell, if you think the way you do, where was Talia at the monestary while Bruce was training there? She wasn't. If she wasn't there, where was she? Why would Bane and Talia just split when this stupid plan of theirs was clearly years in the making (atleast 3 or 4)?

Talia and Bane were together. It was clearly their brain child where Bane carried out her plans. She knew about Pavel, financed the bomb, she's at the stock exchange (waiting for all the people that look for deep meanings in the movie to tell me that's not her), she loathes Dagget, she's involved in the plan every step of the way. All Bane does is the dirty work. Captures Pavel, does that weird diamond **** for Dagget, commits the Stock Exchange hostage situation, etc. He's there so that Talia can run Wayne Enterprises and have Bruce and Fox foolishly let her own the bomb. Tell me I'm wrong here and that isn't their little plan to a T. Tate has that whole speech about her past with Bruce, you think it's conjecture that her wealth and experience wasn't used by Bane when everything else has been (father, origin, escape, training)?


Let's say Bane did all these lovely militaristic things all by himself. The fact remains that Nolan and Co. fool the audience into thinking that this character is like his comic counterpart. He's not. The prison is the biggest part of Bane's background and it's not even close in the movie. He wasn't there because of his dad, he didn't build himself up, he didn't have the strength to escape. Boom. Done. Whatever BS post-LoS training we can dream up still doesn't change the fact that the characterization in the movie is inferior to what was in those comics. Bane's background is literally twisted for a twist. Instead we got a guy wrapped in a towel, sitting on the floor a bloody mess while young Ra's leans in to bring him back to the surface. LoS even gave him that stupid mask and back wrap according to the deleted scenes! Talia has to put her friends tubes back in while he cries! This is a weak and pathetic character that he is reduced to a thug with a deathwish for a man that loathed him. No amount of speeches or backbreaking can make up for it.

How do you know he wasn't there because of his dad? He was born in the prison, and i always took it like the same things happened to him like they did in the comics. Born there, grew up in the prison and had to take care of himself. He's still a really strong dude, look at him fighting off the prisoners so Talia can escape. So i guess Bruce was taken in by the league of shadows, and THEY did all the work for him?? No, Bruce trained with them. HE trained. He was taught, but Bruce built himself up and put in the time. So did Bane.

I don't think Talia was excommunicated. Bane was, she just left because she was disgusted. She left on her own terms. The branding is for when you become an official member of the league of shadows, once you demonstrate your faith. Bruce didn't get branded because he didn't want to execute that man. Talia has that scar because she went to that extreme, unlike Bruce. She became a member of the league of shadows.

You're not strong because you show emotions? Ok then tough guy..

 

[TheBlur]

And yeah, he did a great job from protecting Talia from becoming the evil, suicidal monster he was.

That's the tragic, ironic beauty of it; he didn't. He tried, and he failed.

 

[BatLobster]

Wait a sec...milost were you saying the branding is a sign of ex-communication? How does that work? Like shauner said, it makes way more sense for it to be a sign of initiation. The fact that she has the branding would only signify that she was once a member, nothing about whether she was ex-communicated or not.

 

[milost]

And doesn't seem to care too much about it. How beautifully complex.

 

[shauner111]

Yeah the branding is initiation. It's pretty obvious. Fake Ras will give you the scar if you commit to killing this man. It's not a "YOU DO THIS OR ILL BURN YO ASS! COME ON! DO IT OR IMA' SPANK YOU!!" lol

This is why that scene is so powerful between Bruce and Talia when he sees the scar. They all have the same scar in the league obviously, but he has never seen the scar because he chose not to participate.

 

[milost]

Wait a sec...milost were you saying the branding is a sign of ex-communication? How does that work? Like shauner said, it makes way more sense for it to be a sign of initiation. The fact that she has the branding would only signify that she was once a member, nothing about whether she was ex-communicated or not.

Then why wouldn't Bruce recognize the scar . . .

The initiation was chopping off the man's head. The consequence would have been branding (Scarlett letter) and ex-communication (which makes Bruce's action in Begins look waaaaay to extreme).

 

[shauner111]

Then why wouldn't Bruce recognize the scar . . .

The initiation was chopping off the man's head. The consequence would have been branding (Scarlett letter) and ex-communication (which makes Bruce's action in Begins look waaaaay to extreme).

wrong.

He doesn't recognize it because he never got it, never became a member.

 

[milost]

You're so wrong here. If that's an initiation branding, why does she refer to it as a "mistake" Shauner?

Wouldn't they tell Bruce, "we're gonna poke you with this if you join us bro" for ceremonial purposes?

 

[DACrowe]

You are putting two and two together and coming up with five. The only, repeat only similarity between AO's Bane and Hardy's Bane is a black jacket. Nothing more. The mask is not the same. The vest is not the same. The voice is not the same.



Apart from a black jacket he's not wearing anything Bane has not worn before pre TDKR.



Definitely not since it's not the first time the Batcave has had a waterfall covered entrance.



That's because they are so unique it would be impossible for it not to be a blatant influence.



He wasn't wearing a light colored military vest in AO. What are you talking about?



I'm not. If it were true I'd happily admit it. I made a blog about Nolan influences on comics and media: http://tdkinfluence.blogspot.ie/

I'd happily include Bane in there if I thought it was legit.



The difference is TAS admitted it was a Pfeiffer influence forced on them by WB to help promote BR. Same with the DeVito Penguin design. Neither of them were Timm's choice. WB made him do it.

To me it is blatant. As well as other posters in the video game section. Does it really have to be confirmed like when Dini and Timm did it for TAS?

It really is not anything new for the comics, cartoons, or now video games, to take from what is the most popular image of a character in the pop culture subconscious and to adapt it. This is not crazy talk. And especially the fact that B:AO is a prequel to two games that treated Bane like a joke, and then happens to star the two most popular (with mainstream non-comic readers) villains in the aftermath of a blockbuster film that came out to one year prior? That is way too on the nose to be a coincidence. Especially when Bane's followers in AO worshipped him like a demigod. Kind of like in Rises...

I appreciate your blog, but your refusal to see this really appears to me to be more out of a disdain for Nolan/Hardy's Bane. It really is as clear as day.

I think you were reading a different story. Batman didn't chase Bane's goons. He was putting away all the Arkham escapees Bane let loose on the city. To quote Batman in it, what should he do sit back and let lunatics run rampage over the city?

But you are seemingly supportive of a Batman who's 8 years out of practice with a death wish, and straps on a leg brace to face Bane. Yeah, that's such a better characterization of Batman.



I think you have some kind of revisionist history of the character in your mind or something. The character has always been treated seriously. Sure he had some stinker stories along the way, but what Batman villain hasn't? Even Joker's had his share of them. It doesn't mean DC are not treating him seriously.



So let me see if I got this straight; You prefer a Bane who's plan involved killing a whole city, and committing suicide himself for a villain who hated him, just because he cared for his daughter. A Bane who never escaped from the worst prison on earth. A Bane who never figured out Batman's identity. A Bane who had no reason to have a personal hatred against Batman. A Bane who for all intents purposes was a lackey to Talia. In other words you have a preference for a watered down version of Bane who doesn't measure up to half of what his comic book counterpart is. There is not one thing about Hardy's Bane that is more impressive than the comic book Bane.



Of course it makes him weak. In what way doesn't it make him weak? Those two acts display the true inner strength of Bane's character as well as his remarkable intelligence.

Two vital Bane traits Nolan's Bane didn't have. He was a second hand LOS reject.

1) I am kind of insulted you think just because I dislike Knightfall Vol. 1 that means I am making this up and haven't read it.

2) Yes I read Knightfall (twice), and I did not care for the first volume, because the plan of letting Arkham nut jobs out feels run of the mill for the Bat-comics, and after Robin sees Bane break Croc, they both realize it is all a set-up for Batman to be defeated. Fine, Batman has to protect Gotham, but can her seriously take no precautions if he knows this is all a master-plan by Bane to wear him out? Instead, he just goes along and seems surprised when the trap is sprung. It makes him look lame.

3) I recall Batman and Robin grappling with Bane's thugs like "Bird." Which again tips them off that Bane is watching them and this is all an elaborate trap, that they again do nothing to prevent.

4) I, like many, really do not care that Bane didn't escape or works for the LOS. In a post-Knightfall story (I apologize for forgetting its name) he works with the League of Assassins, just like in Rises. Except now he leads them, just as Ra's originally wanted in the comics. Beyond that, Bane is not a lackey in TDKR. To pretend that he is, is to overly simplify and dumb down the character to fit your narrative of hate for him.

In Rises he orchestrates a mini-French Revolution in Gotham, holds the whole city hostage, facilitates a No Man's Land scenario on his own, and brings the U.S. government to his knees. In Knightfall he...becomes a gangster. Again, yawn. We have Black Mask, Penguin, sometimes Two-Face, sometimes Joker, always the Falcones, the Maronis, the Thornes, et al. doing that.

So yes, a suicidal Bane (very fitting in the political climate of 2012) fulfilling a massively unique plan that causes social, political unrest vs. another mafioso goombah in a mask? I'll take the one with an interesting storyline. Because again, Knightfall did not work for me until Jean-Paul showed up. If you can believe I read that.

That doesn't prove a thing. If the Joker was never allowed kill anyone, or cripple Batgirl, or bash Robin's head in with a crowbar, or any of the infamous evil acts he did in the comics , then Bane is not going to be allowed break Batman's back. He was never treated as a second fiddle. He had one episode in BTAS where he was the main villain hired by Rupert Thorne to get rid of Batman.

The only other episode he featured prominently in was 'Over the Edge' and that episode was a dream.

Exactly. He only got one episode. How many did Joker get? How many did Penguin get? Hell, how many did Mad Hatter, Killer Croc, or even freaking Baby Doll get?

He was depicted well in Over the Edge (one of my favorite episodes). But its a dream, so it does not really count, does it?

He is not presented as a steroid addicted jock. You never even read the story have you?

What Knightfall or New 52?

Batman and Robin doesn't count. It was an abomination of a movie that pissed all over every Batman character in it, save for Alfred.

The third one was BTAS, where he was written as a credible threat and villain. Self sufficient who was hired because he was the best.

DaCrowe, whip out your BTAS DVDs and watch that episode again. Thorne's assistant does not hire Bane to impress her boss. She hires him because Thorne is having trouble with Batman and to quote her "They say your help is the best money can buy".

In his episode he beats the snot out of Croc, studies Batman, kidnaps Robin, and beats seven shades out of Batman before being defeated. In what way isn't that an impressive display of Bane's character for a Saturday morning cartoon under censorship restraints?

Like I said you have a revisionist memory for Bane it seems.

See above. And the point is still valid about that episode. Bane is invited into Gotham as a hired gun. So you prefer the mercenary who gets defeated once and that's it as opposed to one who breaks Batman and brings Gotham to his knees? Oh, but he worked with Talia, so it doesn't count. I guess I forget that makes him weak...save didn't he work FOR a woman in TAS? I do not see why you are okay with that if you make such a stink of it for the movie.

 

[BatLobster]

Huh, this just got interesting. I just figured Bruce wouldn't recognize the scar because he never received one himself and probably never even knew they branded people at all until his initiation "ceremony".

I'm not ruling it out as a possibility but it really doesn't make much sense to me. By the time they were giving Bruce his initiation I think it was pretty cut and dry. Kill the prisoner or be killed. He knew way too much at that point to just "stamp him and kick him out". There was no way they were gonna let him out of that temple alive if he didn't pass his initiation. That's why Ra's pleads with him and tells him there's no turning back.

I just figured they brand you once you join 'cuz they're hardcore and devoted and stuff. I never really thought about it much beyond that.

Oh and milost, how about that J-Nol quote? I'm genuinely interested.

 

[milost]

And yet so did Bane! They were even going to show him in the same obstacles/training Bruce was in!

That's the thing, whatever Begins originally intended to happen to Bruce when he refuses is thrown out the window in TDKR. It clearly makes Bruce's actions (blowing up the monestary and killing), look too extreme.

Unless we're gonna play the "Bane and Talia didn't know as much" card.

 

[DACrowe]

Joker, you killed it. Great post.

DACrowe, might I suggest reading Vengeance of Bane, KnightFall either for your first time or again. You clearly have a misunderstanding or prejudice against a characterization you're not familiar with. The character depicted in those stories is brilliant and a self made man. A far cry from what Schumacher and Nolan created.

Again I have read Knightfall and Vengeance. I read Knightfall for the first time about 15 years ago. Didn't like Vol. 1 then.

I re-read it in 2012 in hype for Rises. Still didn't like it. It is nothing but a generic "villain of the issue" set-up that is a lot of padding until the last issue where Bane breaks Batman. I have always felt this way.

Vengeance is an excellent story.

 

[shauner111]

You're so wrong here. If that's an initiation branding, why does she refer to it as a "mistake" Shauner?

Wouldn't they tell Bruce, "we're gonna poke you with this if you join us bro" for ceremonial purposes?

She sees the fact that she joined the league of shadows as an old mistake. She was disgusted and left, she was not excommunicated, Bane was. Why would a trained ninja who doesn't want to be a part of the cult, just stand there and let them brand him/her? They're leaving, Bane or Talia would just decide to whoop some ass. Branding is their form of a tattoo to show their loyalty to an organization. It's a cult. Bane was most likely just thrown out and Talia said f' it im leaving..goodbye.

 

[shauner111]

Huh, this just got interesting. I just figured Bruce wouldn't recognize the scar because he never received one himself and probably never even knew they branded people at all until his initiation "ceremony".

I'm not ruling it out as a possibility but it really doesn't make much sense to me. By the time they were giving Bruce his initiation I think it was pretty cut and dry. Kill the prisoner or be killed. He knew way too much at that point to just "stamp him and kick him out". There was no way they were gonna let him out of that temple alive if he didn't pass his initiation. That's why Ra's pleads with him and tells him there's no turning back.

I just figured they brand you once you join 'cuz they're hardcore and devoted and stuff. I never really thought about it much beyond that.

Oh and milost, how about that J-Nol quote? I'm genuinely interested.

They're not going to kick you out and leave you with a burning boo-boo on your back! It's like a tattoo to show your devotion.

 

[milost]

She sees the fact that she joined the league of shadows as an old mistake. She was disgusted and left, she was not excommunicated, Bane was. Why would a trained ninja who doesn't want to be a part of the cult, just stand there and let them brand him/her? They're leaving, Bane or Talia would just decide to whoop some ass. Branding is their form of a tattoo to show their loyalty to an organization. It's a cult. Bane was most likely just thrown out and Talia said f' it im leaving..goodbye.

So, being initiated into the LoS was an "old mistake" . . . . . yet Talia runs the organization and wants to achieve what her father wanted and kill Batman because she felt bad and wanted to apologize to her father?


Wow, now Bane and Talia's motivations just got even stranger than they were before.


Yeah, these two are great guys. This is a fantastic story. You win.

 

[BLobo]

Why do you say the movie is underrated? Close to 90% of the people who watched it, liked it, and it has a rating above 8 on most sites. There is nothing underrated about this film. It´s an amazing film and people liked it. Plus, it made a lot of money.

 

[shauner111]

So, being initiated into the LoS was an "old mistake" . . . . . yet Talia runs the organization and wants to achieve what her father wanted and kill Batman because she felt bad and wanted to apologize to her father?


Wow, now Bane and Talia's motivations just got even stranger than they were before.


Yeah, these two are great guys. This is a fantastic story. You win.

Let's do a poll on who thinks it's for initiation or excommunication.

She said it herself, Bane was excommunicated. She couldn't forgive her father so she left. Becoming a member of the league of shadows under her fathers wing was a mistake because it amounted to nothing since Bane was thrown out and she felt disgusted by the organization and left. This is why Bane and Talia run their own version of the league. It's their own group, their rules. When she heard that her father was murdered (not just a natural death in her mind), she forgave him because it's still her father, the only family she has. Her blood. They finish the job of destroying Gotham but it's still their own rules, new group, they're not doing anything else that Ras would have done. Only this one job because Batman killed her father.

 

[milost]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was "a mistake" to be a part of the organization that her father ran, but it's totally appropriate to try and achieve the same plan/goals under the same organization (according to Bane, they were Ra's and the League). That, that right there is good stuff.




Now this is villain reasoning I can get behind. It makes Electro's from ASM 2 look tame and reasonable.

 

[BatLobster]

...Still waiting on that J-Nol quote. This is your chance milost, I'm giving you a bite...reel me in dammit!

The "old mistake" line? She's a manipulative, mysterious femme fatale talking about her mysterious past and she's trying to draw Bruce's attention away from the scar and get him in the sack again. Also why would she be referring to it as an old mistake if leaving the LoS wasn't something she did on her own accord? If there's a double meaning in that line, it's probably simply that it's a reminder of the past. I take it that she has some guilt over leaving and not getting to set things right with daddy al Ghul.

 

[shauner111]

It's even a possibility that she doesn't look at her time in the league of shadows as an old mistake and she's just telling Bruce that so he doesn't ask more questions about the scar. Watch the scene again, she says it like she just wants to get him off her back. Like saying "meh it's nothing, dont worry about it".

 

[Travesty]

What's the Joker pic from?