Doctor Who - Regeneration 9 - Part 8

[godisawesome]

I see that but, I think exterminating your own people probably qualifies. Remember that this is a matter of The Doctor's own conscience being affected, and not a matter of Hurt being exiled by a court or anything like that.

How's this for a theoretical broken promise:

Spoiler

While the Doctor accepts responsibility for ending the Time War, before he gained the Deus Ex machina-I mean, the Moment- he was actually the most strident and powerful defender of the Time Lords, even to the point of enabling and even facilitating their fall to darkness. We know the Time Lords rescued the Master from the Eye of Harmony. Maybe the Doctor is the one who woke up Rassilon, fully aware of the Gallifreyan's true nature. Maybe he was the one who kept escalating the war to the horror we saw, all to stop the Daleks and preserve some ghost of his home world.

If the Doctor sees himself as someone who helped the Time Lords die spiritually and morally even before he finished them off physically, he could see himself as no longer even a Doctor. Instead of improving or ending the situation, he's the one made it worse. Thus, Hurt!Doctor would have fought for peace-a galaxy without the Daleks-and sanity-the continued existence of the Time Lords, who despite their corruption are a major part of the Doctor's perception of the world.

Also, an this is just something I thought of myself, maybe the Master heard a little bit about the Doctor's actions. Not enough to realize the Doctor flat out rejected a regeneration, or even the full scope of his powers under the Time Lord military, but enough to gain a healthy fear of an all-powerful Doctor. He was never really afraid of him before his regeneration, but is scared ****less upon seeing a psychicly-charged Doctor in Ten's stories. If the Master thinks Doctor+power=massive, mind altering changes to your past and complete, surgical, and meticulous eradication, a healthy fear of the Doctor makes a lot more sense than it originally did.

 

[Manic]

I don't see the Doctor enabling his own people to that extent. He was never the biggest fan of the Gallifreyan government, even during the times he was their president. If he wanted to wage an all-out war against the Daleks, I imagine he'd try to keep them out of it.

 

[regwec]

As a huge fan of John Hurt, I cannot 'effing' wait to see his...whatever it is.

 

[Matt]

As it is now I think:

The Silence want to kill the Doctor at Lake Silencio so he can't go to Trenzalore and open the tomb using his name thereby allowing somebody like the Great Intelligence to go and disrupt the timeline resulting in most of the galaxy going sideways as a result.

He didn't go to Trenzalore to avert his death, he went because the Great Intelligence had taken Strax, Jenny and Vastra hostage. That event would have happened regardless of whether or not the Silence had intervened.

If they killed him, he would've never gone to Trenzalore. If the Doctor were dead, the Great Intelligence would not have been able to use Strax, Jenny and Vastra to blackmail the Doctor into opening the tomb. The event would NOT have happened if the Silence were successful. Therefore their plain kind of makes sense.

In regards to the season I still think it has some pretty deep flaws which we have all gone on quite a bit about but I think starting with Hide it pulled itself out of a tail spin and ended on a pretty good note. It doesn't hit the highs of s6's the Doctor's Wife but it doesn't hit the lows of the Wedding of River Song and A Good Man Goes to War. The Rings of Akhaten was definitely the worst episode of the lot.

Maybe between 6 and 7 I'll call it a draw with an edge to 7 for ending on a solid episode and a tease for the future that left me cursing that we have to wait so long for the 50th.

I don't think I've ever met anyone who dislikes A Good Man Goes to War before today.

 

[regwec]

This girly-man from The Guardian disliked it...except for River Song...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2011/jun/04/doctor-who-a-good-man-goes-to-war

 

[Primal Slayer]

Every time I see some white faced alien on DW I always wish they could use the Gentlemen.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

If they killed him, he would've never gone to Trenzalore. If the Doctor were dead, the Great Intelligence would not have been able to use Strax, Jenny and Vastra to blackmail the Doctor into opening the tomb. The event would NOT have happened if the Silence were successful. Therefore their plain kind of makes sense.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, that's what I meant - I agree that their plan throughout S6 in light of the events of this finale mostly makes sense.

Just pointing out that even if the Silence had never intervened the events of this episode still would have unfolded more or less so its not really a paradox or some such.

I don't think I've ever met anyone who dislikes A Good Man Goes to War before today.

I pretty much didn't like any of the major arc episodes in S6 outside of the two part opener.

 

[Matt]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, that's what I meant - I agree that their plan throughout S6 in light of the events of this finale mostly makes sense.

Just pointing out that even if the Silence had never intervened the events of this episode still would have unfolded more or less so its not really a paradox or some such.

Ah, I see.

I pretty much didn't like any of the major arc episodes in S6 outside of the two part opener.

Really? I enjoyed it quite a bit. I don't expect much from Doctor Who. Just some escapist fun and basically each arc of the Moffat years have provided that. A big part is Smith's natural charm and chemistry with his co-stars making it fun, IMO. I think season 6 is even better now that we know what the Silence were trying to avoid. It adds a new level of depth.

 

[Hyde]

Speaking of the Silence, did we ever find out what "Silence Will Fall" meant? Even though they're done with we never got to see why they would fall when the question was asked at Trenzalore

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

It looked like a ton of star systems were winking out of existence after the Intelligence messed up the Doctor's timeline, I imagine it was in reference to that.

 

[Lord Valumart]

Spoiler

Hang on, if Hurt is some kind of Doctor 8.5 that ended the Time War by doing something so horrible that The Doctor refuses to beleive that he's a version of himself, then why was 9 perfectly willing to pull the exact same crap on the Daleks in S1? He's still counting 9 as being The Doctor. He built the thing, failed to use it, then let Rose turn the Daleks to dust and break Jack.

Eh? EH?!

 

[Hyde]

It looked like a ton of star systems were winking out of existence after the Intelligence messed up the Doctor's timeline, I imagine it was in reference to that.

Ahh right, makes sense - cheers. As you guys said it puts a new perspective on the Silence' actions now

 

[regwec]

His own people, perchance? Are you reading the thread, or just in soliloquy?

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

Hang on, if Hurt is some kind of Doctor 8.5 that ended the Time War by doing something so horrible that The Doctor refuses to beleive that he's a version of himself, then why was 9 perfectly willing to pull the exact same crap on the Daleks in S1? He's still counting 9 as being The Doctor. He built the thing, failed to use it, then let Rose turn the Daleks to dust and break Jack.

Eh? EH?!

Like I said:

Spoiler

The Hurt Doctor needs to have done something worse than just being the Time War Doctor for this to work. It has to be more than just killing a lot of Daleks and Time Lords (who let's not forget had gone insane) he needs to have crossed some deeper more terrible line. I can buy the Doctor choosing to forget a incarnation but the crime/guilt needs to fit the punishment.

Maybe the Hurt Doctor willingly sacrificed a companion against their will in the name of winning the war. I could see that shattering him.

 

[Lord Valumart]

Like I said:

Spoiler

The Hurt Doctor needs to have done something worse than just being the Time War Doctor for this to work. It has to be more than just killing a lot of Daleks and Time Lords (who let's not forget had gone insane) he needs to have crossed some deeper more terrible line. I can buy the Doctor choosing to forget a incarnation but the crime/guilt needs to fit the punishment.

Maybe the Hurt Doctor willingly sacrificed a companion against their will in the name of winning the war. I could see that shattering him.

Nope, I'm still running with [BLACKOUT]Valeyard or royally pissed.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

I would love it to be the [blackout] Valeyard [/blackout] but I just don't see it happening, especially with some of the dialogue we got.

 

[jonathancrane]

Spoiler

The Hurt Doctor has to done something extremely evil; in the relaunched Who, we've seen the Doctor (or his doppleganger or proxy) wipe out entire fleets/legions of Cybermen and Daleks, in addition to the Time Lords. The bar has to be considerably lowered...

 

[chamber-music]

Not to mention that time the doctor choked a b****

 

[jonathancrane]

Well, to be fair, if it is the incident I am thinking of, it was regenerative trauma.

 

[regwec]

Are you talking about 6 and Peri? Because she was not a *****.

 

[stillanerd]

Spoiler

Hang on, if Hurt is some kind of Doctor 8.5 that ended the Time War by doing something so horrible that The Doctor refuses to beleive that he's a version of himself, then why was 9 perfectly willing to pull the exact same crap on the Daleks in S1? He's still counting 9 as being The Doctor. He built the thing, failed to use it, then let Rose turn the Daleks to dust and break Jack.

Eh? EH?!

Like I said:

Spoiler

The Hurt Doctor needs to have done something worse than just being the Time War Doctor for this to work. It has to be more than just killing a lot of Daleks and Time Lords (who let's not forget had gone insane) he needs to have crossed some deeper more terrible line. I can buy the Doctor choosing to forget a incarnation but the crime/guilt needs to fit the punishment.

Maybe the Hurt Doctor willingly sacrificed a companion against their will in the name of winning the war. I could see that shattering him.

Yeah, the more I think about it

Spoiler

the more it's not having to do with his wiping out the Time Lords along with the Daleks. Because as you said Upset Spideyfan, the Time Lords went insane. I'd forgotten that The End of Time showed that the Time Lord, under Rassilon, had all become fanatics who planned on committing mass suicide and destroying all of creation in order to "ascend" into "gods," essentially becoming as crazy and evil as the Dalek's themselves. The Doctor would have felt regret but not guilt over having to wipe them out along with the Daleks if only to save the Universe.

Now in "The Beast Below" when the Doctor decides he has no choice by to euthanizethe Space Whale before Amy is able to prevent it, he says that by doing so "he won't be the Doctor anymore and will have to find a new name." Which means, in light of this episode, the promise of the Doctor's name is that he will save lives but not at the expense of killing innocent people or creatures. So if John Hurt is playing the Time War Doctor (and I definitely believe he is), it would have to mean that, during one of those battles, he was forced to kill an innocent person or persons in order to save countless others. Which makes me think the following...

What if the Time War Doctor, in order to stop say "The Skarro Degregations" "The Horde of Travesties" or the "The Could've Been King and his Army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres" or some such, was forced to kill his own granddaughter, Susan?

 

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

Are you talking about 6 and Peri? Because she was not a *****.

just a majorly whiny, constantly complaining and annoying b***h...

 

[regwec]

Oh, that's fighting talk, young pirate.

 

[THUNDERSTRIKE]

and if I were King Yrcanos, I'D choke her too, just on general principle...

the line has been drawn... LOL... t:

 

[Lord Valumart]

and if I were King Yrcanos, I'D choke her too, just on general principle...

the line has been drawn... LOL... t:

Yeh, but he's into that.