Dr. Lecter Invites you to Dinner. The ''Hannibal'' Thread - Part 4

[Roose Bolton]

Apparently DeLaurentiis Co is going to be uploading their own preview sometime soon, due to NBC not doing one.

 

[Schlosser85]

The Red Dragon movie almost completely waters down Will having any mental problems at all. He comes off as a pretty normal guy.

 

[James]

On one hand, sure. On the other, that Devil's advocate kind of reasoning is a slippery slope. At first, it's "Well, why should they air the show on a decent night if it's already cancelled?" Then it's "Well, why should they bother with promos if it's already cancelled?"

Finally it will be "Well, why even bother airing the last 3-4 episodes at all?"

I imagine (I don't know for sure) the expectation is that people who are already watching the show will continue to watch it, while attracting new viewers with promotional material is no longer a priority after the cancellation. Perhaps they're contractually obligated to air them, or it's money they've already spent, something like that.

Call me Lucifer.

 

[Matt]

The Red Dragon movie almost completely waters down Will having any mental problems at all. He comes off as a pretty normal guy.

In fairness though, the show overplays it. In the book, Graham's only real mental illness is a psychiatric breakdown after he kills Garrett Hobbs (and it is more related to him being haunted by killing another person than him being " by his powers," or anything like that). On the show, he is portrayed as borderline autistic and the degree of being haunted by his own mind is WAY overplayed. Honestly, Norton's portrayal of Graham is far closer to the source material than Dancy's, although I'd argue that Petersen's is probably the most accurate portrayal of the three (and ironically the least known and most under-appreciated).

 

[Smilodon]

This episode was probably my favorite of the entire season thus far. Moved at a brisk pace and the dream sequences actually serve to advance the plot like earlier on in the show rather than to just ruminate as we have in the first half of this season.

I absolutely love the dialogue in Red Dragon so I loved how Fuller used them. It's fun to see how each interpretation of Red Dragon handles these conversations, paricularly that of Will/Hannibal's reunion. In a sense, it's Hannibal Lecter as we understand him from the books, rather than the Hannibal that we see from Fuller's perspective. Not that we haven't had lines lifted from the source material before, but seeing Hannibal say stuff like, "That's the atrocious aftershave you wore in court" as he picks apart Will...Mads was on point today.

I also love how the lit Mads this episode. It helps that his facial features are so well-defined, but in one scene near the beginning he straight up doesn't look like he has eyes and it's frightening.

Armitage was great this episode. Compared to Fiennes I think he's got a lot more of that body movement down, and I think Fuller's decision to somewhat limit Dolarhyde's speaking roles in the early parts of this arc just forces Armitage to really just convey Dolarhyde's personality and madness through body language. Everything is so deliberate and I love it.

Alana is so gonna bite it. It's actually kinda horrifying how she knows that if Hannibal escapes she is a dead man, and after all these years Hannibal still promises to kill her.

I loved the Abigail flashbacks as well. It's great how they can keep fleshing out different aspects of her and her relationship to the characters of the show, even after she's gone. I think she compliments the story incredible well, in terms of giving Hannibal's mind some perspective as well as mirroring the growth of the Red Dragon in a sense.

Hopefully the rest of the season will continue at this brisk pace!

 

[Doctor Jones]

I personally really love Cox's Lecter who in some way in terms of book accuracy, is the most like the book's Lecter. Cox's casualness and looks combined with Hopkins refined gentleman and cadence is really the Lecter I have in my head when I'm reading the books.

Mikkelson is an excellent Lecter and Lecter in a different way but he fits more in Fuller's vision of this Lucifer like being, which I'm perfectly find with because it's really one of the best ways to differentiate from Hopkins iconic performance.

 

[Smilodon]

What I meant by Hannibal from the books is that we're getting into more established and familiar material and therefore the dialogue and the actions of the character to me are more familiar than say, some of the more omniscent and god-like things Hannibal has done in times when Fuller isn't following source material. Which I'm enjoying a lot because we finally get to see what Mads/Fuller would do when given the same lines/scenarios as Hopkins and Cox, and seeing the new spin on things is what I love about the show.

Cox's Lecter is by far the most realistic of the three Lecters in terms of closeness to a real-life serial killer. From looks to his mannerisms, a lot of what makes Mann's Lecter scary is how he could really be there. What's crazy is about reading Harris's books is that I can honestly imagine all three actors' voices in my head, depending on how I interpret the dialogue. From casual, to formal, to demonic - all three Lecters work for me that way.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Cox's Lecter was true to the way Lecter had been written in Red Dragon, who at that point wasn't really quite established as a man capable of having empathy for another person. He was vaguely a polite, intelligent psychopath who was still very sadistic in a lot of ways.

One of the show writers pointed it out in an interview, but Mads is based more on the way the character is portrayed in the novel Hannibal than he is in the other two novels. In that same novel he is compared to the devil by various characters, and has that same "renaissance man" air to him.

 

[squeekness]

Cox's Lecter was so great it took me a while to appreciate Hopkins. The fact that this is an alternate reality Lecter in the show made accepting Mads easy. But now that we are treading more familiar ground, the fact that Manhunter is one of my all time favorite movies is taking something away from the show for me right now. It just seems odd to hear the old familiar lines coming from Mads, and for me Armitage isn't close to Noonan's towering, wounded shy giant, serial killer. I'll keep watching and this will always be a favorite show overall for me, I'm just not liking this second half of the season as much as the first.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Cox's Lecter was true to the way Lecter had been written in Red Dragon, who at that point wasn't really quite established as a man capable of having empathy for another person. He was vaguely a polite, intelligent psychopath who was still very sadistic in a lot of ways.

One of the show writers pointed it out in an interview, but Mads is based more on the way the character is portrayed in the novel Hannibal than he is in the other two novels. In that same novel he is compared to the devil by various characters, and has that same "renaissance man" air to him.

That's a very good point. I never considered that given I haven't read Hannibal. But it certainly fits from what I've heard and read of what's described of Hannibal in that book.

 

[Matt]

Lecter has that vibe in SOTL also. He just doesn't get to indulge it much, due to him being incarcerated. In Red Dragon, on the other hand...well...we get a very rough draft of Lecter in that book (although he is only in a few chapters, so that may explain it).

 

[Matt]

As for this week's episode, I gotta say, I am loving the Will/Molly dynamic. Neither of the adaptations have really captured it, but this one is effortlessly. It is going to make it all the more tragic when their marriage is ultimately destroyed by the Dolarhyde investigation. I hope Fuller doesn't back down on that...neither of the other adaptations have shown...it is so subtly done in the books. They seem to be setting up and building toward the complete and tragic destruction of Will. So hopefully they carry through.

The Dolarhyde sequences are great.

I didn't care for the Abigail scenes. They were well done enough, but ultimately just unnecessary. We gained nothing new from them, no new insight on any character of importance. It just didn't feel necessary. It felt like a waste of time.

Same with the Alana scenes. They really aren't all that necessary. Hannibal is going to kill her. We get it. It is just laying it on so thick. Red Dragon is such an amazing story. We don't need filler with Abigail and Alana. I get that the writers want to incorporate the title character into the show, but I really feel like less is more for this arc.

 

[Tron Bonne]

The funny thing is that I became a fan of the Hannibal world thanks to Red Dragon. I saw them in order. I really like Red Dragon, but after watching Dancy's Will Graham, I see Norton's Graham as a PG version of the character. He doesn't sell the whole "I have serious mental issues thanks to Hannibal".

Well in the book and film, he didn't have the relationship he did with Hannibal in this show. In the book, they didn't have any kind of friendship, and in the movie I think it was mentioned they had worked together before Hannibal was caught but weren't close friends.

But anyway, I don't think Red Dragon or Manhunter are particularly good films. They're alright, I guess, but I never had much fondness for either.

 

[Matt]

Well in the book and film, he didn't have the relationship he did with Hannibal in this show. In the book, they didn't have any kind of friendship, and in the movie I think it was mentioned they had worked together before Hannibal was caught but weren't close friends.

But anyway, I don't think Red Dragon or Manhunter are particularly good films. They're alright, I guess, but I never had much fondness for either.

Both get things right and wrong. Petersen has played Graham better than anyone else. I actually think Manhunter is quite good (though it is TERRIBLY dated), until the last 15 minutes when it shifts into a cliche, 80s action movie.

Red Dragon explores Dolarhyde well. Philip Seymour Hoffman steals the show as Freddie Lounds (it is really like he was born to play that role, the character just jumps off the page). But in the end, it is too focused on being another Hannibal Lecter movie (and doesn't even do that particularly well).

Its sad that Red Dragon has yet to get a true to form adaptation. Hannibal is no where close, for a slew of reasons. It really is the best book Harris has written, yet it has been fairly short changed.

 

[Broseph44]

Both get things right and wrong. Petersen has played Graham better than anyone else. I actually think Manhunter is quite good (though it is TERRIBLY dated), until the last 15 minutes when it shifts into a cliche, 80s action movie.

Red Dragon explores Dolarhyde well. Philip Seymour Hoffman steals the show as Freddie Lounds (it is really like he was born to play that role, the character just jumps off the page). But in the end, it is too focused on being another Hannibal Lecter movie (and doesn't even do that particularly well).

Its sad that Red Dragon has yet to get a true to form adaptation. Hannibal is no where close, for a slew of reasons. It really is the best book Harris has written, yet it has been fairly short changed.

All of course according to you. Your word isn't the gospel as you do so make it seem to be a lot of the time. I'm surprised you even watch this show. Seems you're very picky about all of this when it comes to the show and films and the books. As if there is only one right way to do things, which would be your way.

 

[Matt]

All of course according to you. Your word isn't the gospel as you do so make it seem to be a lot of the time. I'm surprised you even watch this show. Seems you're very picky about all of this when it comes to the show and films and the books. As if there is only one right way to do things, which would be your way.

No need to get hostile. I am simply pointing out that there hasn't been a straight adaptation of Red Dragon in the way that Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal were adapted (well, arguably Hannibal, though it is a very long book and some of the stuff would be difficult to fit into a 2 to 3 hour film). Hell, Fueller himself has said it is not a straight adaptation.

To be honest, I'm not even sure why you would get hostile over that point. I don't even think it is debatable.

Manhunter doesn't include Dolarhyde as a character at all (he is simply a force, acting on others, with little to no development or characterization) and just cuts the book's climax at Will's home.

Red Dragon under-characterizes Will, ignores most of Dolarhyde's backstory, changes the ending significantly, and over-uses Hannibal.

And Hannibal has fundamentally changed the character of Will, the nature of his relationship with Will and Jack, is including subplots regarding Alana, Lecter, etc. As I said, Fueller openly admits he is telling a different story and not traditionally adapting Red Dragon.

Again, I really don't see how that point is a matter of hostility or really anything but fact. There has not been a straight, faithful adaptation of Red Dragon.

 

[Broseph44]

No need to get hostile. I am simply pointing out that there hasn't been a straight adaptation of Red Dragon in the way that Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal were adapted (well, arguably Hannibal, though it is a very long book and some of the stuff would be difficult to fit into a 2 to 3 hour film). Hell, Fueller himself has said it is not a straight adaptation.

To be honest, I'm not even sure why you would get hostile over that point. I don't even think it is debatable.

Manhunter doesn't include Dolarhyde as a character at all (he is simply a force, acting on others, with little to no development or characterization) and just cuts the book's climax at Will's home.

Red Dragon under-characterizes Will, ignores most of Dolarhyde's backstory, changes the ending significantly, and over-uses Hannibal.

And Hannibal has fundamentally changed the character of Will, the nature of his relationship with Will and Jack, is including subplots regarding Alana, Lecter, etc. As I said, Fueller openly admits he is telling a different story and not traditionally adapting Red Dragon.

Again, I really don't see how that point is a matter of hostility or really anything but fact. There has not been a straight, faithful adaptation of Red Dragon.

It's all a matter of opinion thought especially if you read the books. I don't read the books so to me none of that matters. What we have gotten on the films and on the show to me is all great and enjoyable so to me it doesn't HAVE to be a faithful adaption. There are a lot who don't read the books who probably just enjoy the show or films just as much as I do without worrying about the books being adapted.

 

[Matt]

It's all a matter of opinion thought especially if you read the books. I don't read the books so to me none of that matters. What we have gotten on the films and on the show to me is all great and enjoyable so to me it doesn't HAVE to be a faithful adaption. There are a lot who don't read the books who probably just enjoy the show or films just as much as I do without worrying about the books being adapted.

People were talking about the books and adaptations. If you haven't read the books (and as such cannot even really comment on the substance of the conversation that was being had), I really do not see why you even felt the need to insert yourself into that conversation and try to prove me wrong? Seems rather petty, if you ask me.

 

[Eddie Dean]

I really love Dolarhyde in Manhunter. Tom Noonan does so much with the littlest things, the way he looks like an overgrown baby, the awkwardness he has with Reba, I don't really need to known much about him. I think cutting him coming back at Will's home is a smart move, too. It always felt a little tacked in the book to me. One climax only please!

 

[Broseph44]

How many more episodes are left for this season by the way?

 

[Matt]

I really love Dolarhyde in Manhunter. Tom Noonan does so much with the littlest things, the way he looks like an overgrown baby, the awkwardness he has with Reba, I don't really need to known much about him. I think cutting him coming back at Will's home is a smart move, too. It always felt a little tacked in the book to me. One climax only please!

Oh, Noonan undoubtedly works well with what he has. It is more a writing problem than an acting one. They just don't give him much to work with.

As for Dolarhyde coming to Will's home, I always liked it. It is the first, subtle glimpse that Harris gives the reader of Lecter's ability to manipulate situations, even from behind bars.

Dolarhyde was such an insecure character and Lecter picked up on it instantly. His approval became paramount to Dolarhyde, more important than his "becoming," more important than Reba, more important than anything. It was the approval that he so desperately sought from his grandmother. And Lecter was able to pick up on it, play it, and changes his focus into the singular goal of killing Will (and finally extracting Lecter's revenge).

One curiosity I have with Fueller's story, is why Lecter would send Dolarhyde after Will. On Hannibal, the good doctor seems to have no real ill will towards Will at this point. In fact, it feels like he loves him. In the book and the previous adaptations, it has been about revenge for apprehending him. But this Lecter willingly turned himself in. I am curious as to what the WHY will be.

 

[Eddie Dean]

I think Noonan has really ruined either Ralph Fiennes or Armitage as Dolarhyde for me. Too attractive! Be uglier!

 

[Sawyer]

Always miss these things when I'm watching because I only understand like 65% of what Mads is saying.

 

[slimshady247]

I mean, after maiming/almost killing Will multiple times, he still refers to him as family so... I guess scarring him (again) may be par for the course when it comes to his kind of love, lol.

 

[squeekness]

How many more episodes are left for this season by the way?

Pretty sure there's four left.