Dreamworks/Paramount's Ghost In The Shell - Part 2

[MessiahDecoy123]

Without ScarJo there's no 110 m budget.

Goodbye mindblowing visuals.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Yup...cuz we all know special effects are the most important part of a movie.

 

[OutOfBoose]

It's certainly an insightful perspective on Asian Americans in US.

But I still don't think having an all-Asian cast is a must for GitS. Nor setting the film in an Asian region. GitS for me isn't about names or titles, so if Motoko becomes white and renamed into Marcy and Batou into Aaron - I'd welcome it. It's infinitely better than GitS '17 dancing on one foot.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Yup...cuz we all know special effects are the most important part of a movie.

Certain great sci fi movies typically have memorable visuals.

Dialogue and story are the other essential parts of the recipe.

Notice I didn't mention the ethnicity of a robot.

 

[DorkyFresh]

It's certainly an insightful perspective on Asian Americans in US.

But I still don't think having an all-Asian cast is a must for GitS. Nor setting the film in an Asian region. GitS for me isn't about names or titles, so if Motoko becomes white and renamed into Marcy and Batou into Aaron - I'd welcome it. It's infinitely better than GitS '17 dancing on one foot.

I don't necessarily disagree with GITS not having an Asian cast or being set in Asia and I actually think a Ghost in the Shell adaptation would have been better received by fans had some of the aesthetics and less important elements (names and appearances) been drastically changed, giving the film it's own identity. One of the things I keep seeing in reviews is that this movie certainly has the shell, but it's missing the heart, the spirit, the soul......the ghost.

If they had kept a lot of the same philosophical themes, updated it to modern times by injecting some meta into it, and changed the appearance of the Major to redheaded femme fatale named Mira Killian who operates in a dystopian New York/Chicago inspired cyberpunk city then it would've felt more like it's own thing while still maintaining it's ghost........and in THAT sense, the fact that they would've changed the 'shell' would've been even more meta since the Major's story is about lost identity through switching shells and the evolution of technology.

 

[jed]

Well even if you don't take into account the racial controversy a lot of people, including myself, are on a sort of ScarJo fatigue. She's popping up everywhere, which is great for her and she's probably in the prime of her popularity! But there IS a such thing as "too much" of a good thing.

As for her as the Major, I get that she raised the awareness of the production to another level since she's an A-lister, but I honestly would've liked to have seen someone less popular in the role. How cool would it have been to see the likes of Summer Glau, Aubrey Plaza or Jena Malone tackle the role? ScarJo as the Major feels like such obvious and vanilla casting (no pun intended) that it's hard to get excited about the prospect of her playing any kick ass women, because we know pretty much what we're gonna get.


Asian cultures are vastly different than our own, that's why. America is a melting pot of people from EVERYWHERE...Europe, Mediterranean, African, South America and of course...Asia. America has had more than 2 centuries of mixing and sharing differing cultures. It's without doubt the most diverse country on the planet and it wasn't until the last 2 or 3 decades that Hollywood movies started to reflect how ethnically diverse our country is and they can still do better.

On the other hand, East Asia has yet to galvonize the flood of cultures the way United States has and even taking into consideration the more racially diverse areas in East Asia they don't have centuries of shared culture like America does. The US is sort of the ultimate mutt of the world while East Asia is still pretty darn Asian. The ratio for Whites to Asians in East Asia is certainly smaller than the ratio of Asians to Whites in America. So since Asians are the obsolute majority over there, and will be for the foreseeable future, there's no real desire from the public to see a White person as a starring character in their movies. Sure they tried to force Matt Damon into a starring role, but that didn't come from the people. That decision came from the money, the studios.

It's basic supply and demand. There's no demand in East Asia to see a White actor in their movies so therefor no supply....and if they want that fix they can just get it from Hollywood movies. God knows we're not in short supply...we're actually pretty damn saturated right now.

And before anyone says "then why don't Asian Americans just goto East Asian films for their Asian fix". Well, first...we do. Second, it's not the same and why that is will be explained later.


America has been doing that for decades (Magnificent Seven, A Fistfull of Dollars, The Departed, The Ring, The Grudge, My Sassy Girl, Oldboy) so why is it an issue if Asia does the reverse?


Well first, they shouldn't be pandering. Pandering is when you give someone what they want in exchange for something of theirs, usually money or a vote, which is the same in most circumstances and in this case it would also mean silence from dissenters. Rather Hollywood should be ACCOMMODATING...welcoming with open arms, embracing, and celebrating. But why?

Because representation matters in America. Black Lives Matter, White Lives Matter, Asian Lives Matter...and so do the lives of people in each and every race. Because America should be progressive in almost everything it does, including art and entertainment. I mean, without Asian culture America wouldn't be able to enjoy anime, manga, martial arts films, Eastern philosophy, Eastern aesthetics, Asian food or Ken Jeong.

America, as well as Hollywood, should be all inclusive, not exclusive. Hollywood shouldn't pander...but it should accommodate......because Hollywood should be a reflection and inspiration of America.


I'll leave you with this very insightful comment from Chris Stuckman's review of Ghost in the Shell...


Nailed It.

Thank you for your comment. Appreciated it.

In this movie, some of the cast are Asian and they came from all over the world.

I'm from Singapore. And there are many Caucasians born and grew up in Singapore. Yet, we don't have any shows/movies that represent them.

But I guess, according to your argument, it doesn't matter since the ratios of Caucasians to Asians is small in Singapore.

And I guess, according to your argument, it doesn't matter since here in Singapore, we don't have decades of shared cultures like America does.

So I guess according to you, that for those Caucasians born and grew up in Singapore, they just have to deal with seeing tv shows/movies that are mostly in Chinese,malay or indian.

There are a lot of Asian centered indie movies, tv shows, Asian film festivals from the US.

At least Hollywood is making an effort to step up on diversity. But for all those Asian countries, they will never make an effort to increase diversity in their tv shows/movies.


Anyway, most anime/manga is drawn to look like Caucasian.
Example: Sailor Moon.

Since when did Asian people ever have blonde hair and blue eyes?

 

[DorkyFresh]

Certain great sci fi movies typically have memorable visuals.

Oh you mean like District 9 ($30 mil), Cloverfield ($25 mil), Chronicle ($12 mil), Attack the Block ($11 mil), Moon ($5 mil), and Ex Machina ($15 mil)? It's a good thing those memorable and significant sci fi movies had huge movie stars to bring in that cash flow!

Dialogue and story are the other essential parts of the recipe.

Well I don't disagree with you there. The script is very important, but I'll take it a step further. The script is the foundation on which a piece of entertainment is built upon. You can have pretty curtains, rugs, and decor but if it's on shaky foundation then it'll more than likely fall apart...as we're seeing with the case of this movie.

Notice I didn't mention the ethnicity of a robot.

Okay? I didn't respond with anything about ethnicity........are you okay?

 

[Jekecy]

If they had kept a lot of the same philosophical themes, updated it to modern times by injecting some meta into it, and changed the appearance of the Major to redheaded femme fatale named Mira Killian who operates in a dystopian New York/Chicago inspired cyberpunk city then it would've felt more like it's own thing while still maintaining it's ghost........and in THAT sense, the fact that they would've changed the 'shell' would've been even more meta since the Major's story is about lost identity through switching shells and the evolution of technology.

You've got to be joking. Even just one of those elements would've raised riots in the anime community, but ALL of those packed into this adaptation? That would've been another level of fan backlash not seen since the internet got Abrams' Superman Flyby project burnt.

The reaction to Scarlett's casting alone has already confirmed anything resembling white/American would've been shot down immediately. This backlash has nothing to do with keeping the "essence" of GITS intact, irrespective of whether this film succeeds or not. This is every bit bitterness for Hollywood daring to take a Japanese property and westernize it. In any fashion. An all-out westernized adaptation ala THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN would've been lambasted even further.

I'm wholly surprised this iteration got made in the first place. Keeping the setting in Japan, with asian actors, some even speaking solely Japanese...is far more than an optimist like I even expected.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Oh you mean like District 9 ($30 mil), Cloverfield ($25 mil), Chronicle ($12 mil), Attack the Block ($11 mil), Moon ($5 mil), and Ex Machina ($15 mil)? It's a good thing those memorable and significant sci fi movies had huge movie stars to bring in that cash flow!

You think you could make a visually impressive GitS movie with 5-15 m?

Okie dokie! If you say so!

Well I don't disagree with you there. The script is very important, but I'll take it a step further. The script is the foundation on which a piece of entertainment is built upon. You can have pretty curtains, rugs, and decor but if it's on shaky foundation then it's more than likely to fall apart...as we're seeing with the case of this movie.

My point is that the movies short comings had nothing to do with the race of the machine.

Okay? I didn't respond with anything about ethnicity........are you okay?

You didn't write 8 to 10 paragraphs about how important it was to have Asians in these movies?

Do have Alzheimer's? Do you need medication?

 

[DorkyFresh]

Thank you for your comment. Appreciated it.

In this movie, some of the cast are Asian and they came from all over the world.

I'm from Singapore. And there are many Caucasians born and grew up in Singapore. Yet, we don't have any shows/movies that represent them.

But I guess, according to your argument, it doesn't matter since the ratios of Caucasians to Asians is small in Singapore.

And I guess, according to your argument, it doesn't matter since here in Singapore, we don't have decades of shared cultures like America does.

So I guess according to you, that for those Caucasians born and grew up in Singapore, they just have to deal with seeing tv shows/movies that are mostly in Chinese,malay or indian.

That's a lot of guessing and unfortunately you guessed wrong. Again, I said representation matters so it would be great to see Caucasians given more meaningful roles in Asian films other than henchman #1, the comic relief, or the bad guy. But are White people in Asia expressing their dissent? Are the Asian studios listening to this minority? If they are, why aren't they "pandering" to them?

I empathize with the circumstances and the concerns that you've described and maybe if enough Caucasians express their concerns to the Asian entertainment industry, they'll listen...but again, that deals with simple supply and demand. Is there currently enough demand to warrant the supply? I'm not so sure about Asia, but there's plenty of demand here in America for Asian representation in Hollywood to warrant the supply.

Anyway, most anime/manga is drawn to look like Caucasian.
Example: Sailor Moon.

Since when did Asian people ever have blonde hair and blue eyes?

Have you never heard of cosplayers? And most anime characters are meant to look ambiguous, not necessarily Caucasian. I mean, if we're judging only on hair and eye color then what ethnicity is Bulma (blue hair), Rei Ayanami (blue hair), Sailor Neptune (green hair), and Sakura Haruno (pink hair)?

Anyway, your point is rendered moot since in this movie they [BLACKOUT]wrote the Major to originally be an Asian girl named Motoko Kusanagi who was mortally wounded then transplanted into a cybernetic body.[/BLACKOUT] This shows that the filmmakers recognized the Major's Japanese origins, ethnically and/or metaphorically.

 

[TheVileOne]

Spoiler

Weren't there set pics of Major visiting her grave or a family grave and it said "Motoko Kusanagi"?

 

[DorkyFresh]

You think you could make a visually impressive GitS movie with 5-15 m?

Okie dokie! If you say so!

Wait you asked me a question, then you answered without giving me a chance to answer? How rude! Anyway...visually impressive movies are a dime a dozen now. How many movies move your soul?

My point is that the movies short comings had nothing to do with the race of the machine.

I don't disagree with you. Again, it all starts with the script.

You didn't write 8 to 10 paragraphs about how important it was to have Asians in these movies?

Do have Alzheimer's? Do you need medication?

I mean, I don't have Alzheimers but I'll take the meds!

But you didn't mention race in your post about ScarJo so neither did I in my response. I was engaging you purely on GitS's budget because of ScarJo, until you mentioned how you DIDN'T mention race.

 

[Sithborg]

Spoiler

Weren't there set pics of Major visiting her grave or a family grave and it said "Motoko Kusanagi"?

Spoiler

Yes. And those are still in the film. With Motoko's mother.

I think there was potentially some room to talk about how the corporation was essentially whitewashing their products, as both the Major and Kuze where Japanese before their conversion. And some interesting questions about how much the Major is still Mira or Motoko.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I don't necessarily disagree with GITS not having an Asian cast or being set in Asia and I actually think a Ghost in the Shell adaptation would have been better received by fans had some of the aesthetics and less important elements (names and appearances) been drastically changed, giving the film it's own identity. One of the things I keep seeing in reviews is that this movie certainly has the shell, but it's missing the heart, the spirit, the soul......the ghost.

If they had kept a lot of the same philosophical themes, updated it to modern times by injecting some meta into it, and changed the appearance of the Major to redheaded femme fatale named Mira Killian who operates in a dystopian New York/Chicago inspired cyberpunk city then it would've felt more like it's own thing while still maintaining it's ghost........and in THAT sense, the fact that they would've changed the 'shell' would've been even more meta since the Major's story is about lost identity through switching shells and the evolution of technology.

To be honest, at first, after seeing the first images of this adaptation, I was really impressed how close it looked to '95 film. But later it just became apparent they're adapting superficial stuff, don't have much substance and don't have their own voice, vision.

Overall, I absolutely agree with you. Only what they needed to do (if they don't adapt Asian setting of the source) is to take manga characters and use them as prototypes for American versions. Keep intact world building elements. Post WWIII or WWIV society. Major is ex-military, hot-tempered operative of Section 9. And the rest of the crew stay the same. As for their appearance, I think they don't need to rework the look too much. Keep the violet punk hair of Motoko or flat top blonde haircut of Batou. These would be good homages to the original.

You've got to be joking. Even just one of those elements would've raised riots in the anime community, but ALL of those packed into this adaptation? That would've been another level of fan backlash not seen since the internet got Abrams' Superman Flyby project burnt.

Everything raises riots these days. We're talking not about pandering, but about adapting the property properly.

The reaction to Scarlett's casting alone has already confirmed anything resembling white/American would've been shot down immediately. This backlash has nothing to do with keeping the "essence" of GITS intact, irrespective of whether this film succeeds or not. This is every bit bitterness for Hollywood daring to take a Japanese property and westernize it. In any fashion. An all-out westernized adaptation ala THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN would've been lambasted even further.

What they did just isn't smart. They neither adapted the source, nor created an American adaptation. Of course there would be usual *****ing, but if the end result is great, everything is forgiven. Which isn't the case here. There's only two ways to do it right - make the film in Asia, with legit Asian actors and let everyone watch the film with subtitles OR full-on western adaptation of the material.

I'm wholly surprised this iteration got made in the first place. Keeping the setting in Japan, with asian actors, some even speaking solely Japanese...is far more than an optimist like I even expected.

Yeah, dancing on one foot. Everyone is Asian, but main heroes.

 

[Sithborg]

Yeah, I enjoyed the film, but it seemed that the script was written in order to get certain key visual scenes into the plot. I kinda wish Sanders had done his own thing.

 

[mikeboydus]

Spoiler

Yes. And those are still in the film. With Motoko's mother.

I think there was potentially some room to talk about how the corporation was essentially whitewashing their products, as both the Major and Kuze where Japanese before their conversion. And some interesting questions about how much the Major is still Mira or Motoko.

Another reason why this film strays dramatically away from the source material.

The name is a pseudonym, referencing basically the Japanese version of Excalibur.

The Major's origins are supposed to be ambiguous, her age, race, name, etc. At times she even questions if she is human, while those around her question if she is female.

This film is so far off its as if someone made a Spiderman film that had the look of Spiderman, but the character instead of being a genius high school student who was bitten by a spider, was a junkie prostitute who experimented with a designer drug made from spider venom and then sought revenge against their abusive pimp.

 

[DorkyFresh]

You've got to be joking. Even just one of those elements would've raised riots in the anime community, but ALL of those packed into this adaptation?

Oh...kinda like how the Matrix was lambasted for borrowing a lot of GitS's aesthetic and philosophical themes while setting it in a modern, Westernized setting complete with a Black main character and Motoko Kusanagi lookalike? Lots of otaku, including myself, ate that sh** up!

The reaction to Scarlett's casting alone has already confirmed anything resembling white/American would've been shot down immediately. This backlash has nothing to do with keeping the "essence" of GITS intact, irrespective of whether this film succeeds or not. This is every bit bitterness for Hollywood daring to take a Japanese property and westernize it.

There are 2 main types of backlash for this movie. The racial controversy and the dumbing down of Eastern philosophy in order to appeal to the Western audience. They each have very little to do with each other, but only one of those problems will cause this movie to fade into obscurity.

An all-out westernized adaptation ala THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN would've been lambasted even further.

The Departed went through a similar controversy, yet it was wildly successful and critically acclaimed. There will always be controversy in ANY adaptation whether it be western comics or manga, but most people are willing to look past the shell if the ghost is kept in tact.

I'm wholly surprised this iteration got made in the first place. Keeping the setting in Japan, with asian actors, some even speaking solely Japanese...is far more than an optimist like I even expected.

The surrounding settings and characters being Asian-centric is a step in the right direction and a noble effort.

 

[lime]

So...it's bad when this movie has worst RT score than Power Rangers.

 

[OutOfBoose]

This film is so far off its as if someone made a Spiderman film that had the look of Spiderman, but the character instead of being a genius high school student who was bitten by a spider, was a junkie prostitute who experimented with a designer drug made from spider venom and then sought revenge against their abusive pimp.

Pretty much.

 

[Sithborg]

Another reason why this film strays dramatically away from the source material.

The name is a pseudonym, referencing basically the Japanese version of Excalibur.

The Major's origins are supposed to be ambiguous, her age, race, name, etc. At times she even questions if she is human, while those around her question if she is female.

This film is so far off its as if someone made a Spiderman film that had the look of Spiderman, but the character instead of being a genius high school student who was bitten by a spider, was a junkie prostitute who experimented with a designer drug made from spider venom and then sought revenge against their abusive pimp.

Straying from the source material isn't necessarily a bad thing. Hell, the last two Godzilla films have pretty much tossed out the original 54 film, which is pretty much sacrilege to Godzilla lore. And yet, they got pretty good responses. And it looks like Monster Planet is also going to ignore the 54 film.

There were some good basics for a good western adaptation. Taking [BLACKOUT]Motoko and essentially having the corporation literally turn her white for a new product[/BLACKOUT] is pretty much a great basis for a Westernized take of the source material. It is frankly something that Japan can't really tackle. It is also why, if you make a Westernized Death Note, Light pretty much has to be white, if you think about it.

 

[Jekecy]

Oh...kinda like the Matrix was lambasted for borrowing a lot of GitS's aesthetic and philosophical themes while setting it in a modern, Westernized setting complete with a Black main character and Motoko Kusanagi lookalike? Lots of otaku ate that sh** up!

Big difference with an original IP inspired (albeit heavily) by a pre-existing work. There were no expectations for Matrix. Just being titled and acknowledged as an adaptation of a property with a sizeable fanbase and a fairly long legacy carries an extra baggage that you simply cannot compare to an "original" film which shares similarities.

There are 2 main types of backlash for this movie. The racial controversy and the dumbing down of Eastern philosophy in order to appeal to the Western audience. They each have very little to do with each other, but only one of those problems will cause this movie to fade into obscurity.

And only one of them continues to linger as controversy regardless of what the film depicts. Scarlett could have given the best female leading performance of the decade, the race debate would still race on forever. That alone is telling about the heart of this discussion. Again, not really about GiTS.

The Departed went through a similar controversy, yet it was wildly successful and critically acclaimed. There will always be controversy in ANY adaptation whether it be western comics or manga, but most people are willing to look past the shell if the ghost is kept in tact.

Infernal Affairs doesn't have a worldwide audience. Nor the legacy.

We don't even need to speak in hypotheticals. Just peruse through all the various remarks and commentary on the Akira project which keeps popping up every few years. Any details that get revealed, unsurprisingly describing westernized elements, are immediately derided by the fanbase for ignoring the cultural identity tied to that anime/manga.

I'm one of the few people who absolutely believes an Americanized take on Akira can work, change in setting and characters included. So believe me I'm all for the notion of keeping the spirit as opposed to direct translations. What I don't have any faith in is the rigid anime fanbase notorious for their inability to waver on artistic license. 99% of these big anime adaptations are expected to be Japanese-starred, set in Japan, and probably spoken strictly in Japanese. Oh, and of course carrying the price tag to match the average Hollywood blockbuster. It's damn ridiculous.

 

[mikeboydus]

The recent American Godzilla film and even Evazilla still respected core aspects of the source material.

This Ghost in the Shell adaption is more like the 1998 Roland Emmerich film if Emmerich had kept the traditional design but still had Godzilla as an iguana who gave birth to Zillaraptors in the NYC subway.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I've been pondering the situation and I like the tactic Death Note took. The film is set in America which is majority white (for now) and thus has a white lead. I don't object to that tactic, I don't see it as white washing because I just see it as an American version of that story. Same with The Departed.

I just don't like the idea of talking everything from Asian culture and setting it in Asia but have it star a white person thing. I just think that's super uncool. So yeah if they had to make a Ghost in the Shell movie and wanted it to star a white lady then I would have preferred it be set in America.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I've been pondering the situation and I like the tactic Death Note took. The film is set in America which is majority white (for now) and thus has a white lead. I don't object to that tactic, I don't see it as white washing because I just see it as an American version of that story. Same with The Departed. I just don't like the idea of talking everything from Asian culture and setting it in Asia but have it star a white person thing. I just think that's super uncool.

 

[Jekecy]

I've been pondering the situation and I like the tactic Death Note took. The film is set in America which is majority white (for now) and thus has a white lead. I don't object to that tactic, I don't see it as white washing because I just see it as an American version of that story. Same with The Departed.

I just don't like the idea of talking everything from Asian culture and setting it in Asia but have it star a white person thing. I just think that's super uncool. So yeah if they had to make a Ghost in the Shell movie and wanted it to star a white lady then I would have preferred it be set in America.

I can understand that sentiment, but this move would've also guaranteed no asian or Japanese representation at all. Not just with the cast, but with the Japanese cyberpunk culture that's absolutely essential to the spiritual and visual identity of GiTS. I'm not certain that's a tradeoff that would've been any less harshly criticized.

This movie's aesthetic owes a large part to that alone, and that's one of the few things universally praised.