Dreamworks/Paramount's Ghost In The Shell - Part 2

[MessiahDecoy123]

Her shell is not caucasian in the '95 anime.

Asians have blue eyes?

The Japanese clearly aren't obsessed with their characters being strictly considered Japanese.

Plus, do you guys really think the Japanese wouldn't use European-looking cyborg bodies in the future?

 

[OutOfBoose]

Her shell looks Caucasian in '95, but so does 95% of anime. There's nothing on her ethnicity outside of her name and spoken language.

Here's the problem with the whole thing. The manga is set in a futuristic Japan. 99% of characters have Japanese names (even pseudonyms) and speak Japanese. While some characters' origin is left ambiguous, there's no reason to think Motoko Kusanagi uses a Caucasian body. It doesn't make much sense in the context, there's just no reason for that. Why would Japan at the height of power and influence use gaijin models? The same goes for '95 film. It's not about ethnicity, it's about artificial and alive. SAC dives into Motoko's past and still leaves it somewhat ambiguous (but we still have no reason to believe she was Caucasian). But when it comes to this new film, they decided to connect "Motoko Kusanagi" name to a white star actress body. And, IMO, it's a poor and unnecessary decision. It's somewhat insulting and funny at the same time.

It can't be translated to live action the same way as anime. Japan is doesn't care about ethnicity in their art, but it's impossible to ignore in live action. Maybe GitS is a product of the whole situation. Swap bodies whatever you like. But I'm sure there are more clever ways to handle the idea.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Without going back and forth pointlessly, I'll sum it up like this. They went out of their way to needlessly justify the race flip with the plot. Regardless if it's a deep commentary on the western culture white-washing Asian properties, or deep exploration of nature of ghost in a machine. It is just tone deaf. You/they can spin it whatever they like, [BLACKOUT]it still looks like they killed an Asian girl and transformed her into a white woman[/BLACKOUT]. Maybe it's cool on paper, maybe it would work if it was done by more clever people, but it reminds me of BvS and the infamous "Martha".

Martha, lol.

Spoiler

She's a Japanese person trapped inside a fake white body. Her white owners deny her of her past and identity. She fights back and gains back her Asian family and name.

How is that not valid, social commentary regarding cultural appropriation?

I swear most critics are blind af. The movie's biggest sin is being smarter than most people realize.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Her shell looks Caucasian in '95, but so does 95% of anime. There's nothing on her ethnicity outside of her name and spoken language.

Here's the problem with the whole thing. The manga is set in a futuristic Japan. 99% of characters have Japanese names (even pseudonyms) and speak Japanese. While some characters' origin is left ambiguous, there's no reason to think Motoko Kusanagi uses a Caucasian body. It doesn't make much sense in the context, there's just no reason for that. Why would Japan at the height of power and influence use gaijin models? The same goes for '95 film. It's not about ethnicity, it's about artificial and alive. SAC dives into Motoko's past and still leaves it somewhat ambiguous (but we still have no reason to believe she was Caucasian). But when it comes to this new film, they decided to connect "Motoko Kusanagi" name to a white star actress body. And, IMO, it's a poor and unnecessary decision. It's somewhat insulting and funny at the same time.

It can't be translated to live action the same way as anime. Japan is doesn't care about ethnicity in their art, but it's impossible to ignore in live action. Maybe GitS is a product of the whole situation. Swap bodies whatever you like. But I'm sure there are less hilarious way to introduce the idea.

Why would the Japanese use blonde and blue eyed synthetic bodies in the future?

The same reason they use European looking people in much of their anime.

 

[OutOfBoose]

How is that not valid, social commentary regarding cultural appropriation?

Because they fail spectacularly with implications. [BLACKOUT]"Oh, **** happens, I'm a white woman now, but at least I know how I was born and my real name! Let's go kick some ass!" Mission complete: Motoko Kusanagi is played by Scarlett Johansson.[/BLACKOUT] The film throws in some hints at real issues with the world, like cultural self-eradication in modern Japan, immigration, multiculturalism (not an issue, but a natural progress). Futuristic issues like augment culture. And these are interesting topics to cover - but the film doesn't. It desperately feels like an attempt to justify the casting choice in the most tasteless and blunt way possible. Nothing is explored. Piece of **** dialogues aren't helping either.

And no, the film isn't smarter than most of it's critics.

Why would the Japanese use blonde and blue eyed synthetic bodies in the future?

The same reason they use European looking people in much of their anime.

As I mentioned above, cultural/ethnic self-eradication. I feel anime/manga is a part of sub-culture to make everything look Caucasian. And these topics are truly interesting, but they aren't explored at all.

 

[Legion]

Asians have blue eyes?

The Japanese clearly aren't obsessed with their characters being strictly considered Japanese.

Plus, do you guys really think the Japanese wouldn't use European-looking cyborg bodies in the future?

First it's a cartoon and there are artistic choices made when designing characters. Homer and Bart Simpson are yellow. So are the majority of the characters in The Simpsons except those that depict minorities. Are we supposed to think that there are no caucasian people in the Simpsons world?

Of course not. Anyone who is yellow is caucasian.

Secondly you can use colored contact lens or change your hair color today. In the future people can augment themselves in any way they want. A different eye color would be trivial for a cyborg.

Anime is made for the people of Japan. Everyone else thinks it's made for them though. Talk about a lack of representation, we can't even let Japan's fictional heroes be Japanese.

And if the creators of manga and anime are truly intending to have caucasian characters in their stories why do they give them Japanese names and put them in Japan?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Because they fail spectacularly with implications. [BLACKOUT]"Oh, **** happens, I'm a white woman now, but at least I know how I was born and my real name! Let's go kick some ass!" Mission complete: Motoko Kusanagi is played by Scarlett Johansson.[/BLACKOUT] The film throws in some hints at real issues with the world, like cultural self-eradication in modern Japan, immigration, multiculturalism (not an issue, but a natural progress). Futuristic issues like augment culture. And these are interesting topics to cover - but the film doesn't. It desperately feels like an attempt to justify the casting choice in the most tasteless and blunt way possible. Nothing is explored. Piece of **** dialogues aren't helping either.

And no, the film isn't smarter than most of it's critics.As I mentioned above, cultural/ethnic self-eradication. I feel anime/manga is a part of sub-culture to make everything look Caucasian. And these topics are truly interesting, but they aren't explored at all.

Most of the haters fail to dissect or address how the movie does serve as an allegory for cultural appropriation. (probably because the vast majority haven't even seen the movie). This shows blindness, ignorance or idiocy.

The movie is an allegory for cultural appropriation and white washing. It brilliantly uses a white A-list actress to get the film green lit but then uses this white A-list actress as part of the narrative of lost Asian identity and family. The haters never really gave the movie a chance. If they did they would acknowledge this allegory but offer constructive criticism. Instead, they're stuck on the fact that ScarJo isn't Asian. All context is thrown out the window. It's just a sad example of a lazy, knee jerk response to controversial art.

And the movie is only an hour and 40 minutes. You want them to go into depth about immigration, cultural self-eradication, multiculturalism in addition to being an allegory for cultural appropriation, being an adaptation to a classic anime and an accessible action flick?

Let's be reasonable. They can only cram so much in there.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Ironically the movie could not serve as an allegory and criticism of cultural appropriation if the Major was played by an Asian.

 

[Teelie]

That argument is never going to be resolved and is itself completely irrelevant to why the movie is not doing well. If you somehow think her being asian would have helped the box office draw then you are completely out of touch with reality.

No matter who the Major was, how many actors were asian or any of the other nonsense that cannot be dropped, the movie would not have done better with the script it had. The best thing about it was the visuals and the technology used in that world.

Complaining over and over about Scarlett Johansen is not going to contribute anything more than it has in the past six months. They took their best shot with a high profile white actress and it still bombed. An asian actress who either no one heard of or was not ideal for the role would not have been any better.

White washing is a problem in Hollywood but all of this, this is pointless posturing over how much you want to see something that isn't going to happen (namely an adaptation of asian source material with an all asian cast in the Western Hemisphere).

 

[OutOfBoose]

Scarlett not being Asian has nothing to do with with the film's performance. If anything, the whole unexplored and unresolved self-reference on the white-washing subject put people into sleep. It just didn't have an exciting and interesting idea to lure people in. Generic plot, generic dialogues, generic action.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The movie is about an Asian woman trapped in an artificial, white body who must reclaim her Asian name, family, and identity.

The haters are clueless.

This is not a simple case of Hollywood white washing.

The creators went out of their way to use this as an opportunity to use the lore to explore lost Asian identity while still making it recognizable as Ghost in the Shell, adapting the original anime for mass consumption, and still validating multiculturalism.

Yet most white washing critisms are "ScarJo is white, movie must be bad".

 

[mikeboydus]

Why would the Japanese use blonde and blue eyed synthetic bodies in the future?

The same reason they use European looking people in much of their anime.

Ghost in the Shell in the 95 film and SAC somewhat departs from conventional anime in that they show clear physical differences between characters who appear to be Japanese and those who are not.

The major's shell has always had an ethnically ambiguous form as its exterior is based on a mass production model from Megatech.

Other characters such as Batou, who also has a full prosthetic body, has a shell that appears to not be Japanese in appearance.

On the other hand Aramaki, Paz, and Ishikawa all appear to be physically Japanese.

Togusa, who is fully human, looks Japanese in the Oshii films but looks less so in SAC, but still does not have an appearance like the Major or Batou.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Wow it only opened with 19mil. It couldn't even hit 20mil opening weekend. It's doing better overseas but it is beyond dead domestically. Will be lucky to hit 50mil.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Looks like deep social commentary with white-washers as bad guys lmao really struck the audiences.

 

[LoganGambit87]

damn last airbender had a better opening weekend

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Hollywood could use more A-list Asian actors and quality roles for Asians.

But I feel the makers of GitS compromised: They cast an A-list actress who happened to be white to get the movie green lit while using the film to explore lost Asian identity and white washing itself.

It's not just another "Emma Stone cast as an Asian" situation.

On the surface, it's just another case of white washing but that's just the shell. The soul or ghost of the movie actually attacks the "loss of Asian identity/names/family".

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Looks like deep social commentary with white-washers as bad guys lmao really struck the audiences.

People didn't give the movie a chance and many who did have tunnel vision and missed any commentary on "lost Asian identity".

How many people think Spielberg's Artificial Intelligence shouldn't have had a "happy ending".

Lmao.

 

[Mysteryman]

That argument is never going to be resolved and is itself completely irrelevant to why the movie is not doing well. If you somehow think her being asian would have helped the box office draw then you are completely out of touch with reality.

No matter who the Major was, how many actors were asian or any of the other nonsense that cannot be dropped, the movie would not have done better with the script it had. The best thing about it was the visuals and the technology used in that world.

Complaining over and over about Scarlett Johansen is not going to contribute anything more than it has in the past six months. They took their best shot with a high profile white actress and it still bombed. An asian actress who either no one heard of or was not ideal for the role would not have been any better.

White washing is a problem in Hollywood but all of this, this is pointless posturing over how much you want to see something that isn't going to happen (namely an adaptation of asian source material with an all asian cast in the Western Hemisphere).

I Agree.
If its not on the page, it's not on the stage.

 

[TheVileOne]

Everyone is really reaching that this is about cultural appropriation to try and justify the movie and how badly it's bombing right now.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

The film was directed by the Snow White and the Huntsman guy and written by Ehren Kruger. It never had a chance.

 

[mikeboydus]

Looks like deep social commentary with white-washers as bad guys lmao really struck the audiences.

I don't know why they couldn't just stick with the source material. There are plenty of social statements there.

They completely missed an opportunity to use the refugee crisis in the source material as a statement on the current state of global affairs, especially with them using or rather wasting Kuze.

The film pushed an agenda that does not align with the source material. The film was anti-technology and anti-corporate, more in line with Robocop and Resident Evil. In the mythology of Ghost in the Shell, it would easily fit in with propaganda from the Human Liberation Front and New World Brigade.

Even the Major's origin in the film

Spoiler

Her and Kuze appear to have been members of something like the Human Liberation Front or New World Brigade before being abducted by Hanka. She was a runaway teenager writing Luddite manifestos about the evils of technology.

Ghost in the Shell isn't about technology or corporations being evil. Its about blurring the line between man and machine, the "Ship of Theseus", and what really defines one's self. Megatech Industries in the source material is not anything like Hanka in the film.

They wasted a major opportunity to critique our current social media collective overload, the blur between facts and propaganda, the revelation of the surveillance state, etc. etc.

Its deeply disappointing and frustrating.

 

[Sithborg]

Yeah, I enjoyed the movie, but I know where the problems are.

 

[TheVileOne]

The manga and anime are more about as we become more technological do we start to lose our humanity, and what defines our humanity when we no longer have any organic parts. Are we defined by our memories and our experiences? Other ideas presented are humans recreating things in their own image, and those things start becoming more human. In some ways the AI creations are almost just as much if not more human than we are. I'm sure you can find other basic ideas and themes but those are kind of what's been put forth.

I'm sorry guys, trying to claim this movie as some deeply relevant check or lofty commentary on whitewashing is a complete and utter failure. And it's a failure if that was the intent.

 

[DorkyFresh]

All of this makes me wish they had consulted with some of the people in charge of Black Mirror and/or Westworld.

 

[DACrowe]

Yes, it is a very visually impressive movie. But Westworld, Black Mirror, even Ex Machina from a few years ago all dealt with similar ideas in challenging and breathtaking ways. The movie though played flat and dull. I appreciate they attempted to go for the evocative melancholy of the anime. But the anime for its time played as smart and challenging. This ultimately was a dumb action movie that squandered some visual wonder.