Comics Enough crying, lets take our fight to Joey Q!

[Arach Knight]

Hmmm...undoing the death of Gwen Stacy by a total continuity retcon. I wouldn't be so against that if not for the fact that it would negate more than Spidey's continuity. It would ruin his interactions with those around him currently and much of what transpired. At this point, all that changed is that Peter doesn't teach, isn't married to Mary Jane, May is alive and well and Harry is resurrected. Otherwise, everything else happened. He still unmasked, but due to demon magic, nobody can remember who he was. He still sided with the registration and changed his mind. Which to that degree, means that Tony Stark should still know his true identity.

I can live with that if it means not ruining decades of prior interactions with other characters. You know, in addition to Ultimate Spider-Man they should have "Alternate Spider-Man." Pick up from where Gwen was about to be killed...save her and tell stories about 616 Peter in a non continuity format, but without introducing a new universe. It would be like an on-going "What If." I don't know how people would take that, but it would be an interesting choice. In the end though, we know it is impossible to please everyone. That is why I choose to respect these writers and editors. They make the hard decisions that try to maintain readership and please people. And sometimes that means you are bound to piss off somebody.

 

[Styleshift]

Hmmm...undoing the death of Gwen Stacy by a total continuity retcon. I wouldn't be so against that if not for the fact that it would negate more than Spidey's continuity. It would ruin his interactions with those around him currently and much of what transpired. At this point, all that changed is that Peter doesn't teach, isn't married to Mary Jane, May is alive and well and Harry is resurrected. Otherwise, everything else happened. He still unmasked, but due to demon magic, nobody can remember who he was. He still sided with the registration and changed his mind. Which to that degree, means that Tony Stark should still know his true identity.

I can live with that if it means not ruining decades of prior interactions with other characters. You know, in addition to Ultimate Spider-Man they should have "Alternate Spider-Man." Pick up from where Gwen was about to be killed...save her and tell stories about 616 Peter in a non continuity format, but without introducing a new universe. It would be like an on-going "What If." I don't know how people would take that, but it would be an interesting choice. In the end though, we know it is impossible to please everyone. That is why I choose to respect these writers and editors. They make the hard decisions that try to maintain readership and please people. And sometimes that means you are bound to piss off somebody.

Yeah.
that would have been pretty interesting...

I don't support BND. (you know this. lol)
but I don't hate Joey Q. either.

He really does love the characters. you can tell when you hear him talk about them. even willing to go on steven colbert and show his face about comics.
I don't know about all of you....but I hide the fact that I'm a comic geek. lol.

but I really think he should have left our options a bit more open. we already have a single spidey in EVERY comic version besides Amazing and there sales aren't sky rocketing. it would be nice to at least have preference....but now we're forced to read the same stuff over again...only cornier this time around.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Quesada gets +10000000 for not creating something like Countdown to Final Crisis.

Sorry, but no. I enjoyed Countdown FAR MORE than OMD.

Now, you want to play Marvel/DC fair, compare Countdown to Captain America or The Initiative. Then you have a case. The Spidey-verse is far more borked up right now than anything at DC.

 

[Norman Osborn]

Sorry, but no. I enjoyed Countdown FAR MORE than OMD.

Now, you want to play Marvel/DC fair, compare Countdown to Captain America or The Initiative. Then you have a case. The Spidey-verse is far more borked up right now than anything at DC.

That's like saying I enjoyed gonorrhea more than syphillis

 

[Doc Destruction]

Exactly. Hence, the argument was flawed to begin with.

 

[ZollyBeckerShow]

So Joey Q saved everything post ASM- 98?
JMS was going to undo Spider-man worse?
Maybe JMS was going to do that just to spite Joey Q's retcon?
Say what you will they set out to make Spider-man more relatable to prospective readers, both options render him essentially emotionally non-resonant. Spider-man grew up as we more or less did. The other thing is that When the killed MJ in V2 #13 people wanted her back, and when she left him in Anual 28 people wanted her back. Joey Q and JMS know what the fans want/ wanted. Creatively and commercially Joey Q and JMS can do what they want- but ASM has been universally dropped from everybody's pull-list.
New people especially children don't flock to Comic Books, thats established, but when your readers abandon your book your circulation is killed.
Enitially I wanted reveng on Joey Q for sandbagging Spider-man, but the OMD/BND problem eventually solves itself. The Comic must sell, Joey Q and the people above him know this- so they need to go back to post OMD/BND contiuity before cancelation gets on the table.

 

[Styleshift]

So Joey Q saved everything post ASM- 98?
JMS was going to undo Spider-man worse?
Maybe JMS was going to do that just to spite Joey Q's retcon?
Say what you will they set out to make Spider-man more relatable to prospective readers, both options render him essentially emotionally non-resonant. Spider-man grew up as we more or less did. The other thing is that When the killed MJ in V2 #13 people wanted her back, and when she left him in Anual 28 people wanted her back. Joey Q and JMS know what the fans want/ wanted. Creatively and commercially Joey Q and JMS can do what they want- but ASM has been universally dropped from everybody's pull-list.
New people especially children don't flock to Comic Books, thats established, but when your readers abandon your book your circulation is killed.
Enitially I wanted reveng on Joey Q for sandbagging Spider-man, but the OMD/BND problem eventually solves itself. The Comic must sell, Joey Q and the people above him know this- so they need to go back to post OMD/BND contiuity before cancelation gets on the table.

....You can take it that way...it's really on what your opinion of a better story is.

First off.
Jms went in knowing the marriage was going to be retconned. he wanted to write this story and he wanted it to be the way he exited the spidey-verse.

Originally JMS was going to have history changed. where Peter gets Harry help for his LSD addiction instead of ignoring the problem. Mj would have stayed with Harry. Gwen never would have died. or had the osborn twins.

Part 3 of OMD was moderately rewritten.
Part 4 was so heavily rewritten by editorial JMS wanted his name off the final book. he always felt he would be able to retcon the gwen twins at the end of his run. instead he got left holding the bag once again.Quesada said no this would retcon even more things. so editorial rewrote it. one thing I do agree with Quesada is about making peter the father of the gwen twins would have been upsetting to all us fans.leave that to guys like wolverine, that is not in peters character. Joey Q. did give a good answer. make it norman but gwen shouldnt have been willing. he didnt write that story for Jms.

but in the end you really have to feel sorry for the dude. he wrote good stories. and I guess when they sold well editorial said ok can you do more of this?
like his morlun arc for instance. that was a EXCELLENT arc. he left spider-mans orgin ambigious at the end. you believe what you want. which i liked. it was never forced. i still think JMS is a good writer. and we should support him.

 

[moraldeficiency]

JMS wrote the 9/11 issue. There's nothing more I need to say.

 

[carnageehw]

I can live with that if it means not ruining decades of prior interactions with other characters. You know, in addition to Ultimate Spider-Man they should have "Alternate Spider-Man." Pick up from where Gwen was about to be killed...save her and tell stories about 616 Peter in a non continuity format, but without introducing a new universe.

"Untold Tales of Spider-man: College years"

I dunno about everyone else, but "Untold Tales" was one of my favourite books when it was out.

 

[Blader5489]

Exactly. Hence, the argument was flawed to begin with.

One More Day isn't the "spine" of the Marvel universe. Countdown was. I said that Quesada gets however-many-points for not creating such a terrible piece of **** book that is critical to the whole MU. OMD only affects Spider-Man.

 

[Blader5489]

Part 3 of OMD was moderately rewritten.
Part 4 was so heavily rewritten by editorial JMS wanted his name off the final book.

JMS wanted his name off both issues because it wasn't his story. Of course, his version would have been far worse, but since his story isn't what saw print he didn't want his name associated with it.

 

[moraldeficiency]

JMS wanted his name off both issues because it wasn't his story. Of course, his version would have been far worse, but since his story isn't what saw print he didn't want his name associated with it.

I don't see how you can say that definatively since no one has ever seen his version. I can't think of too much that would have made OMD worse, save Joe's original idea to bring back gwen instead of harry. JMS' version would also have gotten rid of sin's past, which I think almost everyone agrees would be a positive thing.

 

[Blader5489]

I don't see how you can say that definatively since no one has ever seen his version.

I can say that because I know what his version of the story would entail, and what the continuity ramifications would have been (i.e. colossal ****-up).

 

[Styleshift]

JMS wanted his name off both issues because it wasn't his story. Of course, his version would have been far worse, but since his story isn't what saw print he didn't want his name associated with it.

lol...which is what I said.....

part 3 was part of his work. which is pretty much "the sins past" decision all over again. still his work. but joey q. influenced.
part 4 broke him to the point to publicly announce that he was going to do that. since those weren't his words in the page and he was taking the rap for it.

He's said "if his story is good or crap he'll take credit for it." and thats very respectable.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I can say that because I know what his version of the story would entail, and what the continuity ramifications would have been (i.e. colossal ****-up).

Hey they could just do what they're doing now and pretend continuity is the same even with the glaring inconsistancies, global mindwiping and massive plot holes. See problem solved in a Joey Q approved manner.

 

[Styleshift]

I don't see how you can say that definatively since no one has ever seen his version. I can't think of too much that would have made OMD worse, save Joe's original idea to bring back gwen instead of harry. JMS' version would also have gotten rid of sin's past, which I think almost everyone agrees would be a positive thing.

True. and it wouldn't have torn continuity up as much. and Harry's death not happening would of made sense.

With Gwen being alive it would of made sense as to why Peter isn't with Mj anymore.

Would have been so much better. STILL with that said there still would be fan outcry since anyway you slice it. continuity would be stirred up.

after already having JMS make chances to fit in black in black between one more day to cash in on the black suit in the movie.

They changed his story at the last minute. to match there Brand new day vision. and he didn't like that. I wouldn't either if they kept screwing with my work.

 

[farmernudie]

Blader: I can say that because I know what his version of the story would entail, and what the continuity ramifications would have been (i.e. colossal ****-up).

His version of the REBOOT may have been way better...impossible to know since we don't get to read it out there, right now.

The thing is, THIS reboot has horrible continuity ramifications just the same, if you don't choose to ignore them.

MY humble opinion is, that if you feel you REALLY HAVE TO REBOOT a book....go all the way and reboot, JQ did a half hearted mumbo jumbo reboot that doesn't follow and rule of logic. This happened, this didn't, this changed and is alternate, but didn't change anything, this happened but no one remembers it....it is a very lazy haphazard reboot thrown together randomly. There is no follow thru or logic to it. Not a single person in the marvel universe, as just one example, has commented about their minds being swiss chessed and altered and played with.

So, I'd have rather seen a full reboot (NOT THAT WE NEEDED ONE) than a messed up pick and choose partial reboot.

20 year alternate history vs 30 year alternate history.

Once you go into a multi-decade, alternate history reboot, does it really matter if they shaved it down to 20 from 30? It is REBOOTED AND ALTERNATE none the less. It is a COLOSSAL MESS either way, although it sounds like JMS version would have been more thought out.

 

[Styleshift]

Hey they could just do what they're doing now and pretend continuity is the same even with the glaring inconsistancies, global mindwiping and massive plot holes. See problem solved in a Joey Q approved manner.

continuity shouldn't stop you from telling a BAD story! t:

 

[Blader5489]

Hey they could just do what they're doing now and pretend continuity is the same even with the glaring inconsistancies, global mindwiping and massive plot holes. See problem solved in a Joey Q approved manner.

You're not getting it, and I'm tired of repeating it, so I'm going to put this as succinctly as possible: Quesada's OMD altered the last 20 years, changing the status of Peter and MJ's relationship and moving Harry to Europe instead of the afterlife; JMS' ending would have wiped out and completely redone the last 30+ years, to the point where he needed to construct an entirely new timeline (which isn't exactly something I'd trust JMS with).

 

[farmernudie]

^ We have a new timeline NOW with this reboot...no real difference when you get down to it. 20 or 30.

 

[Styleshift]

If they aren't even acknowledging the new timeline they already screwed up than it wouldn't have made a difference. cept for gwen being alive.

...it's understandable if he didn't marry Mj if gwen was still alive.

but even than the whole plot to begin with was screwed up. I'd rather Mj got shot. THAT would have made the difference.

that it was his fault that she was in danger.
instead of bringing back a woman that WANTS to be left alone. and whom was already written out in a better story that got retconned.

 

[moraldeficiency]

You're not getting it, and I'm tired of repeating it, so I'm going to put this as succinctly as possible: Quesada's OMD altered the last 20 years, changing the status of Peter and MJ's relationship and moving Harry to Europe instead of the afterlife; JMS' ending would have wiped out and completely redone the last 30+ years, to the point where he needed to construct an entirely new timeline (which isn't exactly something I'd trust JMS with).

No, you're not getting it. By having everyone on earth magically forget who Peter Parker really is but still remember an unmasking and the many speeches he gave you've got holes in the minds of virtually everyone on earth. Now I'm sure people like Tony, Reed, Stephen Strange, Norman Osborn wouldn't at all be curious why that happened or who screwed with their memories and certianly wouldn't care enough to fill in the blanks. But you also have other people like the Felicia, Mary Jane and Eddie Brock that cannot in any reasonable way explain what's happened and why for the last several years.

So I agree JMS' explination probably would have effected more stories but you should admit at least it wouldn't have this pink elephant staring you in the face whenever you pick up an issue of ASM. (just don't look at it and maybe in time it will just go away. You also have a story where peter's life was fixed by the devil so he had a mystical abortion (at least one, two if you count the kid in the story) and liferaped his aunt back against her will.

So there you have it. Personally I'd rather have JMS' version (I think) but I'd preferably not have any of this nonsense and just use the same writers to make ASM the best it could be with a Peter Parker I actually respect and look up to rather than am kinda ashamed to be associated with.

 

[Doc Destruction]

He's never going to get it...just give up.

 

[Blader5489]

No, you're not getting it. By having everyone on earth magically forget who Peter Parker really is but still remember an unmasking and the many speeches he gave you've got holes in the minds of virtually everyone on earth. Now I'm sure people like Tony, Reed, Stephen Strange, Norman Osborn wouldn't at all be curious why that happened or who screwed with their memories and certianly wouldn't care enough to fill in the blanks. But you also have other people like the Felicia, Mary Jane and Eddie Brock that cannot in any reasonable way explain what's happened and why for the last several years.

The "mindwipe" is irrelevant to my point as that would have happened in either version of the story. I wasn't even talking about that to begin with, so I don't know why you are.

I'd also like to point out that nobody remembers things in the way you're implying; that's not how memory works. You don't map out every one of your memories since birth onto a piece of paper and then look at what's missing and try to investigate how/why that memory was erased. Memory is such a subconscious impulse that you wouldn't even realize it if your memories had been tampered with.

Now, the unmasking was a big deal and the fact that nobody remembers it will need explaining (which, if I've heard correctly, will be one of those "missing time gap" stories). Hell, the "New Ways to Die" story is said to highlight Norman, Eddie, and Gargan's reactions to not knowing Spider-Man's identity, so there's that.

So there you have it. Personally I'd rather have JMS' version (I think)

No, you really wouldn't have. Everything since ASM #98 would have changed in such a dramatic and radical way that you couldn't cover it up with excuses like "Harry has been in Europe" or "Peter and MJ still lived together."

 

[Themanofbat]

I'm not sure why everybody is getting so uptight about...

The reality of the JMS version would mean that EVERY Spider-Man comic since ASM #99 would have never really happened the way it did... not at all... because Gwen would still be alive, neither Norman nor Harry would have died, Harry would have hooked up with MJ, possibly getting married, meaning Lil'Normie would have never existed, Gwen being alive would have meant a potential "Peter/Gwen" marriage, because the relationship was heading there, but the fact remains that the JMS version would have really given us 37 years of "meaningless" Spider-Man stories... I believe that Styleshift mentions that this version wouldn't have messed up continuity that much, but I fail to see how this version couldn't have done anything BUT mess up continuity.

The JQ version, while not much better, at least acknowlegdes the fact that the stories of the last 20 years DID occur, with the exception that the marriage did not happen, and that Harry survived the ambulance ride to the hospital.

I agree that the JQ version has left people with holes in their memories and other such things, but as time comes around, maybe we'll get to see a glimpse as to "how" and "why" such things have gotten by some of the most intelligent and powerful people in the Marvel Universe. And as already been told, Harry's ressurection has a part to play when making "deals with the devil"... perhaps a Harry/MJ reunion (which would certainly break Peter's heart even more, don't ya think).

And the bottom line is that the new BND creative teams had about a year's worth of stories being plotted/written/drawn based on how Marvel Comics Inc. wanted OMD to conclude, and not to how JMS had wanted to make it end. Unfortunately, in a business sense, JMS' work had to be edited in order for us to maintain a proper schedule with the book.

I can't say that I was a fan of OMD, but truth be told, I'd rather have a slighty edited version of the last 20 years somewhat still count for something as opposed to having 37 years of meaningless "what-if" stories that wouldn't have mattered.