Evangeline Lilly Cast as Hope Van Dyne

[Spider-Who?]

My favorite example is Batman is a Mary Sue, but no one ever says so.



I find it hard to believe that someone can be a social justice warrior and use such a loaded and sexist term as Mary Sue. I can see someone being upset at Janet not having a role in the movie (and I have no problem with that opinion), but I can't see them criticizing Hope on feminism grounds unless they accidentally saw a different movie than I did.

The great irony is that the idea behind a "Mary Sue" is NOT sexist, but the pervasive USE of it is, like shown in this thread IS sexist. By trying to be an SJW, Vile is straight up being sexist and derogatory. Here is a short, but great response to the use of the term:

http://www.ongoingworlds.com/blog/2015/01/is-the-term-mary-sue-sexist/

 

[TheVileOne]

The great irony is that the idea behind a "Mary Sue" is NOT sexist, but the pervasive USE of it is, like shown in this thread IS sexist. By trying to be an SJW, Vile is straight up being sexist and derogatory. Here is a short, but great response to the use of the term:

http://www.ongoingworlds.com/blog/2015/01/is-the-term-mary-sue-sexist/

None of that is based on fact. It's all merely opinion.

 

[Spider-Who?]

My problems with Hope don't come from feminist grounds. They come from the fact that she is a weak, poorly defined character who was shoe-horned into the narrative. And she is made as the replacement for the classic character Janet van Dyne, the true Wasp, who was marginalized in the film and the entire MCU in order to service Hope.

Hope simply fits a lot of the characteristics of a Mary Sue. Straight from TV Tropes:



Technically fits Hope to a T.

Wuhahahahahaha. THAT is what you go with? Out of the PAGES worth of analysis of the term, that is what you picked to try and justify your claim? The most generic, could-apply-to-anyone-trait? Jesus, this is getting pathetic, man. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about (a VERY common SJW trait, btw). Just stop, you're making yourself look foolish. Actually, no, I've changed my mind; please keep going - you're making me giggle.

 

[Spider-Who?]

None of that is based on fact. It's all merely opinion.

I'll take the female authors' opinions on the term over your ill informed opinion any day.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Hope simply fits a lot of the characteristics of a Mary Sue. Straight from TV Tropes:

Technically fits Hope to a T.

No it doesn't, her temper didn't benefit her at all and she wasn't proven right because of it. Her first burst of temper almost got Scott locked up which would have screwed him, his daughter and her own father over and without his ingenuity they wouldn't have pulled the job off. She also thought Scott was a useless bum who was never going to achieve what her father picked him for, she again had to admit to being wrong.

Trying to use a selective couple of character traits you can find in a multitude of characters really is a weak argument to try and justify a pothole ridden path you have started down, fueled purely by the fact you can't get over Marvel not using your preferred version of Ant-Man and Wasp. .

 

[TheVileOne]

I'll take the female authors' opinions on the term over your ill informed opinion any day.

I will take my rightfully informed opinion over that authors' ill-advised opinions.

 

[Spider-Who?]

I will take my rightfully informed opinion over that authors' ill-advised opinions.

Ignoring the fact that your opinion holds NO weight when compared to actual authors who have to deal with sexist accusations of creating Mary Sues by ill-informed people like yourself, you very clearly don't even know what a Mary Sue is. Let me enlighten you:

A "Mary Sue" is a character in fan-fiction, created by the author as an avatar and/for wish-fulfillment. These characters are so absurdly perfect in every possible way that it will defy logic; they are a captain of a star ship at age 15; every canon character is obsessed with them and seeks their love, even the villains put aside their differences to be with them. Mary Sues are so perfect and desired that it upsets the established order and inner logic of the story's universe and are utterly unbelievable in their traits and overall characterization. THAT is what a Mary Sue is. Hope may be an underwritten character (which is very much debatable) but a Mary Sue she must definitely is NOT. That is a fact.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mary+Sue
http://www.springhole.net/writing/whatisamarysue.htm

 

[TheVileOne]

A lot of those things seem to fit Hope van Dyne.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Hope is not a fan-fiction character used as an avatar for the author.
Hope is not absurdly perfect. At all. She is a flawed human being.
Outside of the kiss with Scott, none of the characters are romantically obsessed with her in outlandish/out-of-character ways.
Since she is not outrageously perfect nor desired by all, she does not upset the internal logic of the film.

Yup, she totally fits the Mary Sue bill.

 

[Gr0oT]

[YT]Cg_8knBHEyw[/YT]

 

[TheVileOne]

Hope is not a fan-fiction character used as an avatar for the author.
Hope is not absurdly perfect. At all. She is a flawed human being.

What flaws does she truly have? She's estranged from her father because of her father's own actions. She resented him because he refused to tell her the truth and ignored her for years. Dumped her into boarding school and stopped raising her. Never told her the truth about her mother. These are not real character flaws.

Since she is not outrageously perfect nor desired by all, she does not upset the internal logic of the film.

Yup, she totally fits the Mary Sue bill.

Yes she does. In terms of internal logic, there is really no reason she should not have been leading up the mission instead of Scott Lang other than her father's own misguided idiocy. Considering what happens at the end.

 

[Creo]

I wonder why Black Widow never had this backlash of being a "Mary Sue". Up until AoU, I can't really see anything less than perfection outside of her having "red in her ledger", which was just her being good at her job in the past. I'll be interested to see what people think of Carol in a few years.

 

[TheVileOne]

I wonder why Black Widow never had this backlash of being a "Mary Sue". Up until AoU, I can't really see anything less than perfection outside of her having "red in her ledger", which was just her being good at her job in the past. I'll be interested to see what people think of Carol in a few years.

Well for starters her whole background with the Red Room and being a trained assassin and killer. Killing innocent people and all that. Plus all of her shady dealings with Fury and SHIELD, keeping Cap in the dark, etc.

 

[Creo]

Red Room wasn't until AoU, as I've stated. Her killing innocent people is something literally never mentioned in the films. Shady dealings like Hope being shady with her employer and planning on stealing his technology? It makes sense for a spy to do what she's told and not tell anyone else, that actually makes her good at her job. Hope is planning on ruining billions of dollars of business (albeit for a good reason) by stealing technology from her employer.

 

[Spider-Who?]

What flaws does she truly have? She's estranged from her father because of her father's own actions. She resented him because he refused to tell her the truth and ignored her for years. Dumped her into boarding school and stopped raising her. Never told her the truth about her mother. These are not real character flaws.

Her emotional baggage is a character flaw. She is also stubborn and aggressive to a fault, perfectly illustrated by getting Scott jailed and risking the mission.

Yes she does. In terms of internal logic, there is really no reason she should not have been leading up the mission instead of Scott Lang other than her father's own misguided idiocy. Considering what happens at the end.

No, they pretty clearly covered why she wasn't leading the mission; it was a huge point for TWO characters. If she was a Mary Sue, Scott Lang (the hero and lead of the film), AND her father would be begging her to take the lead without hesitation, she'd don the suit and they would watch with complete amazement and devotion as she single handedly saved the day.

You REALLY don't understand this Mary Sue thing.

 

[TheVileOne]

Her emotional baggage is a character flaw. She is also stubborn and aggressive to a fault, perfectly illustrated by getting Scott jailed and risking the mission.

Those characteristics are frequently exhibited by Mary Sues.

No, they pretty clearly covered why she wasn't leading the mission; it was a huge point for TWO characters. If she was a Mary Sue, Scott Lang (the hero and lead of the film), AND her father would be begging her to take the lead without hesitation, she'd don the suit and they would watch with complete amazement and devotion as she single handedly saved the day.

You REALLY don't understand this Mary Sue thing.

Yes I do. I really understand it better than you. There wasn't a logical reason why should couldn't lead the mission other than her over-protective father harboring lies and half-truths he was always unwilling to tell her. Once he tells her, there is really still no logical reason why she shouldn't be leading the mission.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Holy. Crap. Hahaha. I've come to the conclusion that you are a troll. Nobody is this astonishingly clueless.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The last thing Vile is is a troll. But I do find it odd that when ever these subjects come up, someone is almost always branded a SJW and that any consideration that a female character might have been written poorly is brushed aside by a bunch of males.

Here is the thing. If you write a female character as a classic trope, chances the character will probably have some sexist undertones, and at least will be a sad shadow of a character.

 

[Creo]

You can plug and chug in this thing and see what it turns out. It's made from TV Tropes based off of three other MS tests.

http://www.unc.edu/~jemarti/marysuetest/

 

[Silvermoth]

Urgh so over Mary Sue as an insult especially against women. Wasp was amazing. Can't wait to see more of her. I can't wait to see her blast someone

 

[Guard82]

Urgh so over Mary Sue as an insult especially against women. Wasp was amazing. Can't wait to see more of her. I can't wait to see her blast someone

Agreed, I thought Evangeline was great in the role. It will be awesome when she dons the Wasp suit and starts blasting bad guys. She's already a good fighter on her own.

 

[Voltron]

Agreed, I thought Evangeline was great in the role. It will be awesome when she dons the Wasp suit and starts blasting bad guys. She's already a good fighter on her own.

I was impressed with Lilly's fighting physique and her physicalities. She had guns on her. It was so believable that she could actually woop the men's asses and that she wasn't vogue fighting like Scarlett's Black Widow where it was so obvious that SJo wasn't doing the stunts.

 

[The_Manhunter]

Lilly did a great job in this. Made me almost totally forget about her Tauriel character from The Hobbit that I was not a fan of while watching this.

 

[Mike Murdock]

The great irony is that the idea behind a "Mary Sue" is NOT sexist, but the pervasive USE of it is, like shown in this thread IS sexist. By trying to be an SJW, Vile is straight up being sexist and derogatory.

Well, he admitted his motivation is not feminism. So, unless I'm badly misunderstanding the term Social Justice Warrior, I don't think he really is one. We can stop throwing around that label and make the discussion far less personal. While I strongly disagree about his opinion on Hope, we should focus the discussion on Hope, not personal attacks.

 

[Hunter Rider]

The last thing Vile is is a troll. But I do find it odd that when ever these subjects come up, someone is almost always branded a SJW and that any consideration that a female character might have been written poorly is brushed aside by a bunch of males.

Here is the thing. If you write a female character as a classic trope, chances the character will probably have some sexist undertones, and at least will be a sad shadow of a character.

Here's the thing Darth, that isn't why I've taken issue here, hell until the Ghostbusters thread the other week I'd never even heard the SJW term, that and using alley as an adjective are things the Hype has revealed to me in the last couple of weeks.

No, this is based purely on the fact he's trying to complain about a character by using a term incorrectly purely because he wanted a different character to be used, and as is typical with this board at times, the issue is now that she's too good at things, not that she needs saving, it's a no win for the filmmakers IMO.