Fant4stic: Reborn! - - - - - Part 39

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If I was Fox, I will ask for payment, X-Men television rights, and X-Men merchandise. That will seem like a fair trade for FF and their connected characters.


Right a fair trade for something Fox has no idea what to do with. :whatever:

FF is valueless to Fox in $ terms. It's only value is to bargain for X-Men TV rights. And if Fox tries to negotiate like that then they had better be ready to throw away tens of millions in losses every 7 years to keep the rights. You must really think the Fox execs are total morons or on serious drugs.
 
Now you know that is something Fox will NEVER give up. lol FF will be sitting on the shelves for another seven years. lol

Those rights actually do expire for Fox at one point. But Im sure Disney would like them sooner rather than later
 
I'm not piling on Trank. I don't think he was the main problem with this film.
It's inception was wrong. The focus he was told to follow was wrong. The budget and timing were wrong.
I'm sure with the right time, budget and idea behind him Trank could have made a fantastic film. Pun intended.

Pretty sure trank pitched this vision to fox... i mean he was still contractually forced to do the film under certain peramaters, but i think its been a joint effort of bad decisions from everyone
 
Thank you for the review, Keyser!

Since you've seen the film, could you confirm/refute the stuff this guy on twitter is saying?
https://***********/FB_BMB
 
Right a fair trade for something Fox has no idea what to do with. :whatever:

FF is valueless to Fox in $ terms. It's only value is to bargain for X-Men TV rights. And if Fox tries to negotiate like that then they had better be ready to throw away tens of millions in losses every 7 years to keep the rights. You must really think the Fox execs are total morons or on serious drugs.
Fox has everything to gain and nothing to lose trading FF for X-Men TV rights. And Marvel has no use for the mutants on TV. It's a win-win
 
Thank you for the review, Keyser!

Since you've seen the film, could you confirm/refute the stuff this guy on twitter is saying?
https://***********/FB_BMB

His observations about the content of the movie are accurate (and our audience groaned about no post-credits too), though I wouldn't be so harsh on it as he was.
 
I don't see a Reviews thread anywhere yet, so I hope you don't mind me posting here. I went to an advance screening in the UK tonight, and here is my Non-Spoiler review:

With all the negativity surrounding the production from the earliest stages, I went into FANTASTIC FOUR hoping for a triumph over the odds. And in a perverse way, I guess it is, but not in the manner I'd hoped. See, with all the intense negativity surrounding this production from even the early stages, if there was one thing I didn't imagine would be possible, it was that FANTASTIC FOUR could possibly disappoint me. And yet, somehow, it did.

I'll try to explain. The most disarming thing about this is that, for the first 40 minutes or so, this is a freaking GREAT movie. Like, me open-mouthed stunned, sitting in the cinema thinking, "Oh my God, they pulled it off. This ultimate underdog has managed to silence the haters." Yes, the characters are mostly a bit younger than they should be. But scrape past that, and in that opening sequence, this is a film that just *gets* the Fantastic Four and what makes their characters and the relationship, on a deeper level than the previous films managed. The actors are all top-notch, and inhabit their roles so well, bringing the humanity to each of the key figures and cementing who they are before the powers hit them. Miles Teller is just great in the film, and for the first time on the screen they managed to nail that Reed Richards is the most fascinating character of all the four, and that it's not his stretchy powers that make him special, it's his incredible mind. And science, and the power of intelligence and future-thinking, is presented as being right at the forefront here in a way that's kinda inspiring. It felt like superhero storytelling laced with an INTERSTELLAR-style awe with the might of human potential.

Even this much-dreaded interpretation of Doom is handled so well at first. There's no computer hacker/blogger Victor Domashev: he's Victor Von Doom, from Latveria. And Toby Kebbell is leagues ahead of Julian McMahon's smarmy yuppie, and totally nails the character's motivations. He's all fragile ego and simmering jealousy towards Reed, his contempt for Richards' supposed lesser intelligence hiding an insecurity that Richards may be smarter than him. And yet still he finds himself starting to admire Reed and become friends with him in spite of himself, it's all handled so well. Sue's complicated protective relationship with Johnny, Ben feeling out of his depth amongst these intellectual heavyweights but having Reed's back no matter what, it's all touched on here. Even the origin itself is handled well, a skillful display of steadily escalation, with the heroes' transformations handled in a quite jarringly horrific "body horror" fashion that gave things a fresh new angle and totally made sense. And in terms of character focused origin-telling that makes these characters feel fleshed out and relevant, I genuinely thought Fox were on course to giving us a BATMAN BEGINS for the Fantastic Four, that's how good it was.

And then it falls apart.

I'll try not to get too much into spoilers, but I'll say there's a clear dividing line between what was a great film and what just turns into a mess: it's a black screen, with a caption reading, "ONE YEAR LATER." And everything after that, it's like a different director working from a different script. Suddenly, all that carefully built up momentum is gone. And you realise that all the stuff that was so beautifully set up in the first half of the film never gets adequately paid off. Toby Kebbell's great work is largely undone and Doom turns into a damp squib. And perhaps more unforgivably, the Fantastic Four themselves lose all their chemistry. Suddenly it's like there's no chemistry between them, to the point where they might as well have filmed their scenes separately and been green-screened together. We don't actually get to experience them becoming a team, just get told they are. The Thing in particular gets a bum deal here. Jamie Bell is actually really strong as Ben Grimm, selling his pained humanity and making his friendship with Reed the heart of the film. But he is never given a chance to really connect with anyone else in the cast or feel integral to their unit. Seriously, I think I could count the amount of dialogue exchanges between Ben/Johnny and Ben/Sue COMBINED in one hand, and have fingers left over.

Really, the back half of the film just feels so rushed, and therefore inconsequential, to the point where by the end of the film I didn't even think it was the end. As the film entered its final minutes, I was thinking maybe we'd seen a lackluster mid-film set-piece, and hoping that the film would be able to claw back its momentum for the finale after a sluggish middle. Then it just ends, and I'm like, "HUH?" I genuinely think so many people stayed waiting for an after-credits sequence (there isn't one) because of this shared feeling of, "That CAN'T be it." This is a very slender hour-and-a-half film.

Short version: FANTASTIC FOUR has a superb first act, an underwhelming second act, and no third act. Not a good structure to have at all.

So, that brings us back to the beginning, and disappointment. In a way, I'd have preferred for this to just be a steaming turd of a film. Then I could have just disengaged and laughed at how awful it was. Instead, there's so much good stuff here, and they come tantalisingly close to making a quality film. And the fact that they then spectacularly fumble the ball at the goal line makes the whole viewing experience that much more infuriating. The fact they did enough right to see the great movie they set the groundwork for but ended up not making. In the end, FANTASTIC FOUR is not a turkey, and given the hate this film has endured, that in itself is a sort of triumph. But ultimately, I'd classify FANTASTIC FOUR as a frustrating near-miss.

ugh

this is heartbreaking
 
I don't. I think they'll be afraid to touch social injustice in the X-Men properties. And that's all because of Disney.

Not too mention Wolverine would be sterilized and made into a PSA against cigars and any serious personal demons would be sanitized. Itd be Iron Man 3 except worse. Disney told Black he couldn't have Tony drinking to deal with his PTSD. Because as we all know no one with PTSD has ever used any sort of substance to cope.:o That is pretty clear indication that Marvel Studios will never be allowed to ever present their heros with "uncomfortable" issues or weaknesses. Disney is afraid to touch on any serious human psychology in their comic movie properties. It has to be perfectly palatable to delicate sheltered children.

At least Fox wont pussyfoot around alcohol, smoking, PTSD and other character flaws.
 
God damn it is tough keeping up with this forum. Waking up tomorrow & catching up is gonna be a nightmare
 
Disney told Black he couldn't have Tony drinking to deal with his PTSD. Because as we all know no one with PTSD has ever used any sort of substance to cope.:o That is pretty clear indication that Marvel Studios will never be allowed to ever present their heros with "uncomfortable" issues or weaknesses.

I was unaware of this. Where'd you hear about it?

God damn it is tough keeping up with this forum. Waking up tomorrow & catching up is gonna be a nightmare

All you need to really know is that this movie is the turd most people felt it probably would be.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the first half of the film is Trank's vision and the second half is Fox coming in saying we need to make this more comicbook-y!
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the first half of the film is Trank's vision and the second half is Fox coming in saying we need to make this more comicbook-y!

i would sure like to know the truth about the making of this film one day. i'm hoping for a trank twitter rant on a random weekday afternoon.
 
i would sure like to know the truth about the making of this film one day. i'm hoping for a trank twitter rant on a random weekday afternoon.

Oh, one more Trank explosion after the negative reviews come out would be great.
 
I was unaware of this. Where'd you hear about it?

It came out in an interview Shane Black and Guy Pierce did 2 years ago.

"In our first draft Tony was a bit more rock ‘n’ roll," Pearce said in a recent interview, on how Stark was dealing with things post-Avengers, but then Disney stepped in.

"I think we were just told by [Disney] that we should probably paint Tony Stark as being kind of an industrialist and a crazy guy, or even a bad guy at some points, but the 'Demon in a Bottle' stuff of him being an alcoholic wouldn’t really fly," Black said in the same interview.

http://www.dailysuperhero.com/2013/04/iron-man-3-demon-in-bottle-comic-story.html
 
And for all the hard time many folks gave Michael B Jordan, Miles Teller, Kate Mara, Jamie Bell, Toby Kebbell... they're not the problem here at all. They did the absolute best they could with the material they're given. But I was left wishing they'd been given a better movie to work with.
 
And for all the hard time many folks gave Michael B Jordan, Miles Teller, Kate Mara, Jamie Bell, Toby Kebbell... they're not the problem here at all. They did the absolute best they could with the material they're given. But I was left wishing they'd been given a better movie to work with.

I can't speak for the rest of the internet, but most people around here had nice enough things to say about the cast. They were never the problem. I still am excited to see what MBJ does with the human torch. I've heard he's one of the best parts of the film.

It came out in an interview Shane Black did 2 years ago.

Interesting, thanks for the info :up:
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the first half of the film is Trank's vision and the second half is Fox coming in saying we need to make this more comicbook-y!

Possible. But it could be that the original second half really stank too and that Fox was justified for trying to salvage it. It will probably be many months if not longer before we know the truth.
 
I really would've loved to see MBJ in a good CBM. Damn shame. Hopefully he gets into another role in the future. Wouldn't it be ironic for the two guys MS has from other studios cbm's be Ex-Human Torches?
 
I really would've loved to see MBJ in a good CBM. Damn shame. Hopefully he gets into another role in the future. Wouldn't it be ironic for the two guys MS has from other studios cbm's be Ex-Human Torches?

I've really liked MBJ since Chronicle, I'd be so down for it.
 
Where are all the "this movie is gonna be great, just wait and see fanboys are always wrong" guys?

There wasn't many of those.

Most were "I hope this movie is good" rather than "this will be good"

If I was Fox, I will ask for payment, X-Men television rights, and X-Men merchandise. That will seem like a fair trade for FF and their connected characters.

Thats likely what fox will negotiate for if this movie fails at the box office. I'd wager 100% that Disney won't give up the X-Men TV & Merchandise rights (that they don't use or profit from) and so there's only two options left. Sell for cash or hold onto them until next deadline. The second wouldn't net them any money but it'd stick it to those who campaigned for the movie to fail.

I don't see a Reviews thread anywhere yet, so I hope you don't mind me posting here. I went to an advance screening in the UK tonight, and here is my Non-Spoiler review:

With all the negativity surrounding the production from the earliest stages, I went into FANTASTIC FOUR hoping for a triumph over the odds. And in a perverse way, I guess it is, but not in the manner I'd hoped. See, with all the intense negativity surrounding this production from even the early stages, if there was one thing I didn't imagine would be possible, it was that FANTASTIC FOUR could possibly disappoint me. And yet, somehow, it did.

I'll try to explain. The most disarming thing about this is that, for the first 40 minutes or so, this is a freaking GREAT movie. Like, me open-mouthed stunned, sitting in the cinema thinking, "Oh my God, they pulled it off. This ultimate underdog has managed to silence the haters." Yes, the characters are mostly a bit younger than they should be. But scrape past that, and in that opening sequence, this is a film that just *gets* the Fantastic Four and what makes their characters and the relationship, on a deeper level than the previous films managed. The actors are all top-notch, and inhabit their roles so well, bringing the humanity to each of the key figures and cementing who they are before the powers hit them. Miles Teller is just great in the film, and for the first time on the screen they managed to nail that Reed Richards is the most fascinating character of all the four, and that it's not his stretchy powers that make him special, it's his incredible mind. And science, and the power of intelligence and future-thinking, is presented as being right at the forefront here in a way that's kinda inspiring. It felt like superhero storytelling laced with an INTERSTELLAR-style awe with the might of human potential.

Even this much-dreaded interpretation of Doom is handled so well at first. There's no computer hacker/blogger Victor Domashev: he's Victor Von Doom, from Latveria. And Toby Kebbell is leagues ahead of Julian McMahon's smarmy yuppie, and totally nails the character's motivations. He's all fragile ego and simmering jealousy towards Reed, his contempt for Richards' supposed lesser intelligence hiding an insecurity that Richards may be smarter than him. And yet still he finds himself starting to admire Reed and become friends with him in spite of himself, it's all handled so well. Sue's complicated protective relationship with Johnny, Ben feeling out of his depth amongst these intellectual heavyweights but having Reed's back no matter what, it's all touched on here. Even the origin itself is handled well, a skillful display of steadily escalating tension, with the heroes' transformations handled in a quite jarringly horrific "body horror" fashion that gave things a fresh new angle and totally made sense. And in terms of character focused origin-telling that makes these characters feel fleshed out and relevant, I genuinely thought Fox were on course to giving us a BATMAN BEGINS for the Fantastic Four, that's how good it was.

And then it falls apart.

I'll try not to get too much into spoilers, but I'll say there's a clear dividing line between what was a great film and what just turns into a mess: it's a black screen, with a caption reading, "ONE YEAR LATER." And everything after that, it's like a different director working from a different script. Suddenly, all that carefully built up momentum is gone. And you realise that all the stuff that was so beautifully set up in the first half of the film never gets adequately paid off. Toby Kebbell's great work is largely undone and Doom turns into a damp squib. And perhaps more unforgivably, the Fantastic Four themselves lose all their chemistry. Suddenly it's like there's no chemistry between them, to the point where they might as well have filmed their scenes separately and been green-screened together. We don't actually get to experience them becoming a team, just get told they are. The Thing in particular gets a bum deal here. Jamie Bell is actually really strong as Ben Grimm, selling his pained humanity and making his friendship with Reed the heart of the film. But he is never given a chance to really connect with anyone else in the cast or feel integral to their unit. Seriously, I think I could count the amount of dialogue exchanges between Ben/Johnny and Ben/Sue COMBINED in one hand, and have fingers left over.

Really, the back half of the film just feels so rushed, and therefore inconsequential, to the point where by the end of the film I didn't even think it was the end. As the film entered its final minutes, I was thinking maybe we'd seen a lackluster mid-film set-piece, and hoping that the film would be able to claw back its momentum for the finale after a sluggish middle. Then it just ends, and I'm like, "HUH?" I genuinely think so many people stayed waiting for an after-credits sequence (there isn't one) because of this shared feeling of, "That CAN'T be it." This is a very slender hour-and-a-half film.

Short version: FANTASTIC FOUR has a superb first act, an underwhelming second act, and no third act. Not a good structure to have at all.

So, that brings us back to the beginning, and disappointment. In a way, I'd have preferred for this to just be a steaming turd of a film. Then I could have just disengaged and laughed at how awful it was. Instead, there's so much good stuff here, and they come tantalisingly close to making a quality film. And the fact that they then spectacularly fumble the ball at the goal line makes the whole viewing experience that much more infuriating. The fact they did enough right to see the great movie they set the groundwork for but ended up not making. In the end, FANTASTIC FOUR is not a turkey, and given the hate this film has endured, that in itself is a sort of triumph. But ultimately, I'd classify FANTASTIC FOUR as a frustrating near-miss.

Well balanced review. Shame that it seems to be somewhat ruined by changes. It reads like a disappointment at a mediocre level but not in league with the worst of the worst.

And for all the hard time many folks gave Michael B Jordan, Miles Teller, Kate Mara, Jamie Bell, Toby Kebbell... they're not the problem here at all. They did the absolute best they could with the material they're given. But I was left wishing they'd been given a better movie to work with.

That's happened before in CBMs, like Green Lantern & Thor 2.
 
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Because movie studios operate on petty grudges and not the bottom line.

Well the bottom line is unlikely to be hurt too much by this film. Fox is successful enough to weather this without selling the rights back to Marvel.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if the first half of the film is Trank's vision and the second half is Fox coming in saying we need to make this more comicbook-y!

Yeah, there are so many disconnects between the first half and the back half that it really does feel like the second half was the studio stepping in and, I don't know, them losing the script in a fire or something.

- In the first half, they set up a love triangle between Victor, Sue and Reed in the first half, which plays as another factor in this personal and professional jealousy Victor has simmering for Reed. In the second half, Doom regards Reed and Sue no differently than he does Johnny or Ben, they're just obstacles for him to kill, save for a token, "Sorry I have to kill you now, Susan."

- In the first half, Johnny is set up to have an inferiority complex with his sister. He apparently also has a high IQ, but never used it in the way Sue did, and resents his father supposedly preferring his adopted daughter over him. This is never really resolved or paid off, instead being replaced with this half-assed idea of Johnny wanting to be a soldier for the government against his father's wishes.

- Also, the Ben/Reed relationship is all over the place. It's the heart of the film at first, then Ben's absent for all the group-building stuff with the other four leads. Then he abruptly comes back, and they do some set-up stuff of Ben always having Reed's back and it costing him dearly. But then they do nothing to actually justify Ben's forgiveness of Reed. Literally, mid-battle, Ben's still all like "You betrayed me, I'm a monster because of you." Then after the battle, the next time they talk they're all buddy-buddy again and Ben is talking about how "fantastic" their journey has been.
 
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