Apocalypse Gambit in the Apocalypse Movie

[Majik1387]

To insist that the writers are limited to a future that may not even exist anymore for said character is small-minded.

 

[Super Jim]

^ No one is suggesting that the writers are "limited to a future that may not even exist anymore for said character".

All we're saying is if a character existed in the original timeline, and still exists in the new timeline, then they were born around the same time, to the same parents.

First, for characters that were born prior to 1973 and DOFP, this isn't even a discussion. It's absolute.

For characters born after 1973 and the events of DOFP the argument is that if they still exist then they are the same age as the were in the original timeline. We've already seen examples of this with Kitty, Bobby, Piotr and Rogue...

Now the writers are not limited to the same future, meaning once the character exists (is born) what happens to them from that moment can now be altered from the original timeline.

For examples:

- Maybe Jean, Scott and Ororo were now brought to the school sooner, since Xavier was affected by Wolverine.

- Maybe Nightcrawler is brought to the school, so he may not be used to attack the President as we saw in X-Men 2.

- Maybe Gambit meets Ororo, which possibly didn't happen in the original timeline.

- Maybe they end up awaking Apocalypse from his slumber, causing the events of the next movie.

- Maybe Warren is stolen as a baby by Apocalypse in 1983 and is aged and turned into Archangel, the Horseman Death.

- Maybe Wolverine gets his adamantium from Apocalypse, and not from Stryker.

As you can see the options are endless, as far as what happens to the characters, but all of this is after they exist (are born - effectively on the same day as they were in the original timeline)!

If you can't grasp this point then I believe you just never will...

 

[CyclopsSummers]

And in modifying events, births can be modified as well.

Original or new timeline, Scott is already born in 1973. You want to modify his DOB ? too late.

^ No, they can't, not significantly.

Yes, maybe the changes to the past causes someone to be born a day or two early or late. Or maybe the whole butterfly effect causes a premature birth or something. But generally we're talking the same egg and sperm, which means the same person, which means the same birthday, which means the same age.

This is finite and can't be affected by changing the past. If the person is still in the future, then they were born at the same time as they were in the original timeline.

Exactly.

However We will have adult Gambit and teen Cyclops as we had in X-men origins. Except we have Channing tatum and a new actor instead of Taylor Kirsch and Tim Pocock

 

[Windrider77]

well technicaly all films except First Class were erased by the time travel In
DOFP.

Besides Gambit In 1983 and Channing Tatum playing him anything goes for Gambit In this discussion.

Wolverine Origins and it's characters are not included in the continuity with the other films or the new timeline. As far as the other movies X-Men 1-3 and The Wolverine those timelines are going to change but the characters will stay true to there univurs that was previously set up in those movies. So stories may change but the major characters will remain in tact. Hard to put that all into words. Lol

 

[psylockolussus]

Wolverine Origins and it's characters are not included in the continuity with the other films.

Dofp and TW didnt ignore Origins Wolverine.

 

[marvelrobbins]

Dofp and TW didnt ignore Origins Wolverine.

There was slight retconning In dofp of rigins of having wolverine working for mob boss instead of being in vietnam and returning weapon X to singer's vision.

But,It's moot point since after time travel of DOFp Origins,the wolverine,and trilogy have been erased

After Days of future past only things cannon going into Apocalypse and future films

post credit scne of DOFP of young apocalypse building In egypt

The events of First Class

the 1973 parts of DOFp

The new future at end of DOFP

Everything else joins the future with sentinles as being erased.

 

[Loki882]

Yeah, but one of Wolverine's flashbacks was from Origins where Sabretooth stomps on his bone claws and breaks them. So I don't think that Origins was completely ignored, but it was most likely retconned out of canon by the ending of DOFP.

 

[marvelrobbins]

Yeah, but one of Wolverine's flashbacks was from Origins where Sabretooth stomps on his bone claws and breaks them. So I don't think that Origins was completely ignored, but it was most likely retconned out of canon by the ending of DOFP.

with DOFP they were picking and choosing what from Origins to honor

They had wolverine In new york instead of vietnam and they wanted to restore the weapon X to the X-Men/X2 version however they payed homage to
Origins In other ways

Wolverine was called Jimmy In hotel room
Stryker was major In DOFP same rank as In Origins when he recruited wolverine
and Sabretooth
A shot of young jason In freezer was included In weapon X flashback with footage from X-Men and X2
a shot of sabretooth cutting wolverine's claws was included when Xavier read
mind showing wolverine/Jean scenes and other painful things of logan.

It's pointless to argue about it.since time travel In DOFP has left both wolverine films,and X-Men trilogy non-Canon now.

 

[Majik1387]

Dofp and TW didnt ignore Origins Wolverine.

The Wolverine ignored Wolverine Origins.
DoFP erased Wolverine Origins.

 

[psylockolussus]

There was slight retconning In dofp of rigins of having wolverine working for mob boss instead of being in vietnam and returning weapon X to singer's vision.

But,It's moot point since after time travel of DOFp Origins,the wolverine,and trilogy have been erased

After Days of future past only things cannon going into Apocalypse and future films

post credit scne of DOFP of young apocalypse building In egypt

The events of First Class

the 1973 parts of DOFp

The new future at end of DOFP

Everything else joins the future with sentinles as being erased.

"Slight" retcon doesn't mean they totally ignored the film. They kept some parts and retconned or ignore some things. Just like with the other X-films. Remember "when I was a 17 year old".

Yeah, but one of Wolverine's flashbacks was from Origins where Sabretooth stomps on his bone claws and breaks them. So I don't think that Origins was completely ignored, but it was most likely retconned out of canon by the ending of DOFP.

Not only that, the shot of WOlverine lying down when he was about to get the adamantium was from Origins. They also listed the movie's title at the credits. So how is that ignoring Origins: Wolverine?

The Wolverine ignored Wolverine Origins.

Did you miss the part where Wolverine yelled Kayla's name?

 

[Dead Man Dann]

Not only that, the shot of WOlverine lying down when he was about to get the adamantium was from Origins. They also listed the movie's title at the credits. So how is that ignoring Origins: Wolverine?

Lets face it-- it's likely that they included that footage to be respectful. There were a couple of shots of Logan in the tank, but only ones that didn't contradict the X2 flashbacks. Then there were the claws breaking-- big deal, Creed wasn't even visible. Pretty generic. I'm almost sure there was no shot of Huston's Stryker, even though people on here have claimed otherwise (I remember rewatching the flashbacks on some bootleg specifically to see if Huston was there, and I didn't notice a single shot).

 

[Octoberist]

I'm not too sure why anyone would aggressively defend X-Men Origins' continuity. Even the friends I know who I liked it think it's a weaker entry. Something that's not worth fight for or against, it's just there.

 

[psylockolussus]

I'm not aggressively defending Origins, but IMO is DOFP/The Wolverine didn't ignore it as much as some people like to believe that. Its part of the original continuity despite the other films retconning/ignoring some parts of it.

 

[marvelrobbins]

Lets face it-- it's likely that they included that footage to be respectful. There were a couple of shots of Logan in the tank, but only ones that didn't contradict the X2 flashbacks. Then there were the claws breaking-- big deal, Creed wasn't even visible. Pretty generic. I'm almost sure there was no shot of Huston's Stryker, even though people on here have claimed otherwise (I remember rewatching the flashbacks on some bootleg specifically to see if Huston was there, and I didn't notice a single shot).

when It hits DVD I will have to study the flashes more carefully but about the only things I could make out from origins were shot of Jason In freezer and wolverine reacting to bone claws being cutoff.

Bryan Singer wanted audences to remember his version of Weapon X project
and Brain Cox as Stryker.He included shot of Josh helman with the weapon X flashbacks so everyone knew he was suspose to be the young Brian Cox.

 

[Dead Man Dann]

Jason In freezer

Are you sure that was there? Don't remember it-- and Logan never even saw Jason in Origins, so that would be a strange shot to include.

 

[Super Jim]

Origins wasn't completely ignored, but I think I understand what some are saying. The whole really bad Deadpool, and the Scott and Emma that didn't make sense, are more often than not just assumed as not accepted.

And I'm ok with that. To make this movie-verse work, after everything they've done to it, just conviently forgetting about these things is fine with me. At the same time they should really try to limit the stupid timeline inconsistencies going forward...

Also, I kind of remember seeing Jason in DOFP.

 

[psylockolussus]

Are you sure that was there? Don't remember it-- and Logan never even saw Jason in Origins, so that would be a strange shot to include.

I didn't spot that too.

 

[Super Jim]

Ok, with Kinberg's recent statements I think we need to get back on track with this Gambit thread.

So, IF they decide to use Gambit in the Apocalypse movie, which I believe is by far they're best option, introducing him first in the team film, then how to use him.

I'll start off with my idea, which I explained at the start of this thread...

We know that they main chcracters in this film will be Jean, Scott and Ororo. Yes, of course, Professor X, likely Beast, Wolverine, Mystique, Magneto, etc., will all be there as well. But my point is that however they use Gambit he can't take away from the main three, but will need to enhance the story.

So what do we know about Gambit from the comics, and how can that be tied into a story focused around these main three characters?

- Originally a professional thief
- Member of the New Orleans Thieves Guild
- Had connections to Mister Sinister
- Ladies man
- He was an orphan before being taken in by the head of the Thieves Guild
- As a teen Dr. Nathaniel Essex used him to steal back his diaries from the Weapon X Program
- He witnessed Wolverine escaping from the adamantium process and then stole the diaries
- He burned the diaries as he felt them too dangerous to give to Essex
- He married Bella Donna Boudreaux, the Granddaughter of the Head Assasssin of the Assassin's Guild
- He killed her brother Julien when he challenged him, and was exiled
- He went to Mr. Sinister for help since he had too much kinetic energy coursing through his body. Sinister de-powered him.
- In return Gambit had to perform 3 mission for Sinister, including bringing together the Marauders and leading them against the Morlocks
- He saved Sarah, who grew up to become Marrow
- First involvement with the X-Men was when he met a de-aged Storm and saved her from the Shadow King.
- In the possible future of Bishop Gambit is known as "the Witness", the last person to see the X-Men alive before they were killed by "one of their own"
- Bishop first thought that Gambit was the one who betrayed the X-Men, until it was found out that it was Onslaught
- He served as Apocalypse's Horseman Death, in an attempt to protect the X-Men, which backfired.
- Became a member of the Maruaders in order to have Sinister release him from Apocalypse's control
- Destroyed Destiny's Diaries so Sinister wouldn't have them
- Involved in the Messiah Complex, aligned with Mystique

So these are the main ones. There seems to be two things that would apply to Gambit and to the main three X-Men (Jean, Scott and Ororo). These are him working for Sinister and the whole Mutant Massacre thing, and him meeting and protecting Ororo when she was de-aged.

Both of these could be applied to a movie that focuses on Apocalypse. First, Sinister has often been involved with Sinister, and the Mutant Massacre could be interwoven into this movie's storyline. Next, instead of a de-aged Ororo, due to this X-Men Movie-verse and the difficulties with ages and such, they could just go with Gambit meeting Ororo when he was in say his mid-20's (a role Tatum could pull off) while she was say in her mid to late teens.

Let's explore each of these...

Friendship with Ororo

So what do we know about Ororo?

- Her mother was a princess of a tribe in Kenya
- Her father was a photo journalist from America
- Ororo was born in Harlem, New York
- They moved to Egypt where Ororo is orphaned
- She developed claustrophobia in the attack where her parents were killed
- She became a skilled thief in Cairo
- She once pickpocketed Charles Xavier
- She wandered into the Serengeti, where her powers manifested and she was worshipped as a Goddess.
- That's where Professor X found her and recruited her.

I believe we have to assume (and hope) that part of this movie will be Professor Xavier finding and bringing these students back to the school.

Makes sense that he can find Ororo in either Egypt or being worshipped in the Serengeti. Both have their positives.

The fact that Ororo was a thief, and so is Gambit, seems to be an obvious way to bring them together. So what if it was Gambit that she tried to steal from instead of Xavier? What a great way to bring them together and start that friendship?

What I could see is a basic storyline like this...

- Ororo is an orphan on the streets of Cairo.
- Growing up in this way she has become a skilled thief.
- Gambit is in Cairo (we find out later that he was sent by Sinister)
- Ororo tries to steal from Gambit and a chase ensues
- Maybe Ororo gets away, or Gambit uses his powers to stop her, but doesn't harm her. he could give her some sage advice, like "always have your escape planned chere'".
- Ororo, realizing what Gambit is, how he's like her, follows him.
- Gambit goes to this pyramid, with the appearance of stealing from it (this was what he was sent to do)
- He uses his powers to get into the pyramid, and/or through some traps/obstacles. Ororo follows him.
- Gambit (and Ororo) find themselves in the treasure room, or crypt room. Gambit goes to take whatever it is he was hired/directed to steal and in doing so (or Ororo does something) they disturb the large crypt up on the dias, which ends up being one of Apocalypse's regeneration chambers. The energy causes the pyramid to shake and Gambit (and Ororo) flee before they can see Apocalypse emerge.
- Over in Germany, Professor X, Beast, Jean and Scott (who have already been recruited), along with Nightcrawler, who was just recruited, are in the jet when Professor X sesnes the energy. They divert to Egypt to investigate.
- While escaping there is a collapse, maybe caused by Gambit (maybe they are attacked/chased by a Horseman?). This is where Ororo develops her claustrophobia, if they want to use that in the movies.
- Professor X and all show up and save Gambit and Ororo (maybe both are unconscious). Either they just leave, since there is no continued threat (Apocalypse et al have departed), or they are attacked and forced to flee (maybe someone gets hurt - maybe Xavier can't handle the presence), or Ororo is hurt and they must flee.
- They go to the mansion.

So, would you like this way of tying Gambit into the story?

Would you use, and if so, how, the whole Morlock Massacre storyline?

 

[HIA]

your posts are too long, lol
I like reading new comments, but we I see a post that large, Im like.... too much to me right now

 

[Super Jim]

I know, that's always been an issue of mine. It's why I now try to use bullets.

But I've always found that those who are willing to read them are most often happy that they did.

 

[Super Jim]

So to summarize, the question is which of these do you want:

1. A mid-20's Gambit (cause with tatum that's what we'll have to get) just part of the team.

2. A "big brother" type relationship with one of the characters, and if so, which one?

3. Not a member of the X-Men and used solely as a "villain" who turns to the good side at the climax/finale.

4. Something else?

 

[squeekness]

So to summarize, the question is which of these do you want:

1. A mid-20's Gambit (cause with tatum that's what we'll have to get) just part of the team.

2. A "big brother" type relationship with one of the characters, and if so, which one?

3. Not a member of the X-Men and used solely as a "villain" who turns to the good side at the climax/finale.

4. Something else?

I'd like a #1, just without Tatum. I'd settle for #2.

 

[Duran Man]

I like #3.

 

[Dr. Remy Lebeau]

#3 seems the most likely... and I would want it.

 

[scatterax]

maybe he's like quicksilver and shows up for a badass extended cameo...and then leaves right after.