Game of Thrones - Book Readers' Thread - - Part 19

[Victarion]

I see Sansa as I did Jeyne - the knight that rescues the damsel in distress, the damsel being Reek. Unlike Jeyne, Sansa comes with the emotional baggage of stepping into this role while forgiving Theon for killing her siblings. It brings the theme of Theon's Reekoning - how much is too much? - full circle by giving Sansa's knight a damsel responsible for the fall of her family's home. So Sansa's got to find it in herself to forgive Theon and rescue him from Reek, and Ramsay.

Dany - For the past 2-3 episodes, I've suspected that Hizdahr and Daario are running a game on Dany with the Harpy business. I assumed she got an inkling of this as well, hence her decision to marry Hizdahr and sort of remake herself as a ruler of Meereen.

Stannis' forces - I assumed more came to his cause between episodes, since the Mormont girl's letter indicates that he sent messages to the Northern lords. I question his logic in bringing Selyse and Shireen, rather than returning them to Eastwatch.

Doran - I'm surprised at how little Dorne's been involved, and here we are at the midpoint of the season.

Jorah - Leaving your captive unattended doesn't seem all that smart. Maybe he thought it'd be easy enough to catch Tyrion if he tried to run?

I'm starting to suspect we may get Euron next season, given how they're teasing the Citadel and Dragonstone. Loras was sent to Dragonstone, if I recall right, but that doesn't look like it'll be possible in the foreseeable future.

 

[Huddsy]

I see Sansa as I did Jeyne - the knight that rescues the damsel in distress, the damsel being Reek. Unlike Jeyne, Sansa comes with the emotional baggage of stepping into this role while forgiving Theon for killing her siblings. It brings the theme of Theon's Reekoning - how much is too much? - full circle by giving Sansa's knight a damsel responsible for the fall of her family's home. So Sansa's got to find it in herself to forgive Theon and rescue him from Reek, and Ramsay.

I could get behind this -- I just worry about her being pure shock and awe.

 

[Victarion]

The risk is certainly there. I thought Talisa getting knifed in the belly was pretty shocking. It is shocking, but at the same time it gave Lord Frey tangible proof that there'd be no wolf pups to start up another rebellion.

 

[ThePhantasm]

My only conclusion that I can draw from Dany in this past episode is that the writers have decided to go ahead and make her bat**** insane. I mean Barristan warns her about becoming like her crazy father burning people alive, and so naturally in response to Barristan's death she decides to burn a random person alive.

 

[Victarion]

That's what I got from that scene (aside from a flashback to Eddie Carr's death in TLW) Though in the show she's had Daario encouraging her to take a more militant approach. "All rulers are either butchers or meat."

 

[Marvolo]

Pfft...I was cheering her on. There was nothing crazy about what she did. Not in the world she lives in and is having to operate in. She should have done that the minute the Harpies showed up. She was never going to be able to negotiate with them. They only want two things. Her gone, and slavery back. So it was either roll over or turn them into Dragon kibble. And she needed to remind he masters that she still has two very scary very deadly dragons locked up.

I know this does nothing to stop the Harpies, but putting myself in her shoes and only knowing the information she knows I don't think there was anything else she could have done after the Harpies so brazenly attacked Grey Worm and killed Selmy. As for the marriage, politically it makes sense to try it. It makes Hizdahr into a political hostage of sorts. I just hope that she runs the marriage in the show rather than Hizdahr manipulating her.

 

[ThePhantasm]

So Sansa...

- has some idea of the Bolton's military
- knows that there are a fair amount of Stark supporters in the North
- the Bolton's have a weak grip on the North
- Stannis is en route with a bigger army

And instead of getting Stark supporters to help her escape and join Stannis, she is still going with the marry-Ramsay-plan as her best option? This whole thing makes no sense. Its just so pointlessly contrived.

 

[Drz]

It's really stupid to show Daenerys kill random people who might be innocent because in the 2nd episode we establish that all people deserve a fair trial and Barristan Selmy wouldn't have approved of the Dragon torture either.

Then the show tries to make Daenerys seem like a badass by her making the proposal of marriage and keeping the man under her thumb. She's essentially a tyrant, not the democratic peace keeper fans want her to be.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Pfft...I was cheering her on. There was nothing crazy about what she did. Not in the world she lives in and is having to operate in. She should have done that the minute the Harpies showed up. She was never going to be able to negotiate with them. They only want two things. Her gone, and slavery back. So it was either roll over or turn them into Dragon kibble. And she needed to remind he masters that she still has two very scary very deadly dragons locked up.

Yes, she reminded the masters that she has two locked up dragons that she cannot control or command (hence their chains). In other words, in her desperation she reminded them of her own ineptitude.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Then the show tries to make Daenerys seem like a badass by her making the proposal of marriage and keeping the man under her thumb. She's essentially a tyrant, not the democratic peace keeper fans want her to be.

Not even a clever or intelligent tyrant. I can only imagine that Varys is going to flip his **** when he actually meets her.

 

[Victarion]

...I wonder what Varys is doing at the moment. Tyrion's certainly got his work cut out for him. Aside from the diplomatic situation brewing, or burning, in Meereen...there's the fact that his father was one of the Usurper's dogs.

Littlefinger married Sansa to Ramsay Bolton in order to join the Vale's power with that of Bolton's. It reminded me of the Manderly situation in the books. As far as we know in ADWD, Stannis has no idea that there's an anti-Bolton presence in Winterfell. Similarly, it seems that the show scenario uses the Vale forces like those of Manderly in that they're not truly allied to the Bolton cause. As with Manderly's forces, Stannis is unaware of their allegiance.

 

[Marvolo]

Yes, she reminded the masters that she has two locked up dragons that she cannot control or command (hence their chains). In other words, in her desperation she reminded them of her own ineptitude.

Yeah im sure thats exactly what they were thinking while watching their buddy being roasted and eaten alive.

Even if they werent paralyzed with fear which they were and even if they werent still locked up in her dungeon which they probably are the chains dont guarantee she cant control them. To the hostages all it would mean is that she doesnt wont them roaming free. They are still full grown dragons who will roam and eat out of instinct and Dany cant be with them 24/7. Chains are a logical precaution.

So given the Masters current predicament those chains mean **** all to them.

I mean, if a person owns a bear that he keeps chained in his basement are you going to be any less afraid of the guy after he feeds your buddy to the bear while you watch? Do the chains really make the guy and his bear any less frightening? I doubt it.

Dany is in a precarious situation. One she has admittedly stepped in herself. But her actions in this past episode was about all she could do at this point. She tried mercy. The Masters repaid her with murder and sedition.

The logical next move would be to take hostages. Its what kings to do to ensure rebellions dont take place or to at least discourage them. Dany is doing the same here. She took the most important family members from the Master families and demonstrated that she will kill another one if any future attacks happen.

And yall need to remember that she is currently alone. Selmy is dead. Jorah is gone. Dario isnt exactly helping her. She is young. She is scared. She is operating based on information which is probably half lies. And someone in the Pyramid is no doubt behind this whole thing. The deck is stacked against Dany and she is doing the best she can do at the moment.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah im sure thats exactly what they were thinking while watching their buddy being roasted and eaten alive.

No, in that moment they were scared. When that moment wears off however...

A great deal of Dany's power comes from supposedly being in command of the dragons. That illusion is quickly wearing off, thus so many are quick to oppose her.

An obedient animal doesn't have to be chained. And she admitted explicitly that she can't control them when she said "they may eat you anyway, regardless of what I say" (paraphrasing). Anyone can lock an animal in a dungeon to frighten people with. Dany could be killed and her replacement could do that much, and threaten people in the same way.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Prediction:

Spoiler

Stannis and Jon will die at the end of episode 9. In episode 10, Melisandre will attempt to resurrect Stannis. During her ritual, she will only refer to him as "the Lord's chosen." During the ritual, it will cut to the NW putting Jon's body in an ice storeroom. Melisandre completes the ritual, but nothing happens to Stannis. Screen cuts to Jon opening his eyes and raising from the dead. End credits.

 

[Drz]

Not to sound like a grumpy nerd or anything, but it it also really silly of Stannis who's strategic mind has been praised this season to bring his only heir alongside with him to the siege.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah, why didn't Stannis send her to Eastwatch or someplace else? Its not like the only two options are "march with us or stay here."

 

[Roose Bolton]

I can't believe I'm saying it, but out of everyone in Meereen it seems like Daario of all people is the only one making any sense.

 

[dude stannis]

I was suspecting that Dany would slowly take on more of The Mad Kings traits, seems like the show is less subtle about it.

Also I want Maester Walken to sit the Iron Throne.

 

[Greens]

I wonder why the **** they had to give Jorah grey scale.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Littlefinger married Sansa to Ramsay Bolton in order to join the Vale's power with that of Bolton's. It reminded me of the Manderly situation in the books. As far as we know in ADWD, Stannis has no idea that there's an anti-Bolton presence in Winterfell. Similarly, it seems that the show scenario uses the Vale forces like those of Manderly in that they're not truly allied to the Bolton cause. As with Manderly's forces, Stannis is unaware of their allegiance.

There are no Vale forces at Winterfell. There's just Sansa, who isn't planning to do anything; she's just expecting Stannis to win on his own.

 

[Roose Bolton]

If anyone's going to fill Manderly's role it's GreatJon Umber, that actor was reportedly back for this season and he'll be damned if he's called an OATHBREAKER.

 

[CaptainCanada]

If anyone's going to fill Manderly's role it's GreatJon Umber, that actor was reportedly back for this season and he'll be damned if he's called an OATHBREAKER.

That report was based on a miscommunication, as I recall.

 

[Roose Bolton]

The person in question said it was a mistake, but it seemed to me that she was just backtracking to cover her ass for spoiling Clive Mantle was back. It was a rather lazy attempt too.

 

[Victarion]

There are no Vale forces at Winterfell. There's just Sansa, who isn't planning to do anything; she's just expecting Stannis to win on his own.

Oh, I was thinking of that scene where those Vale knights ride into Winterfell with LF and Sansa. I wasn't sure if they stayed behind or left with LF.

While speaking with Lord Bolton, LF mentions that an alliance between the Vale and the North proved incredibly strong in the past. So joining Sansa to Ramsay seems like it's done with the intent of LF having a fallback in the event that Stannis fails.

In regards to the Clive Mantle thing, didn't she tweet something like "Great to be working with Clive again?"

More theories for the show: Dany's letting that Targ madness take hold. So it seems her next big arc is going to be mastering that madness. Jon's going a different direction on the show, currently, trying to play politician in a more peaceful way. Post stabbing, I wonder if he won't come back a bit harder, a bit less lenient. If you've read the Elric saga by Michael Moorcock, think back to Elric before Yrkoon betrayed him. Elric tried to play the role of moderate ruler, and was still betrayed by Yrkoon. After being rescued by the sea king and returning to his nation, Elric has Yrkoon's men butchered living and fed to Yrkoon at the evening's feast. And begins ruling in a more draconian style in accordance with the traditions of their race. I think Jon's going to be the one in need of Danaerys's guidance once he's resurrected.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Yeah, why didn't Stannis send her to Eastwatch or someplace else? Its not like the only two options are "march with us or stay here."

Would you want your wife and child to stay at a decrepit castle with 50 men, half of whom are criminals (including rape) with winter approaching and an army of ice demons and zombies?

Or bring them south to a battle which you believe you will win and claim one of the strongest fortifications in the region?