" It's telling that nearly everything that has made the show popular is taken directly from the books, while the most criticized aspects are original to the show. "
What? Yea. Hardhome and Battle of the Bastards had nothing to do with the show skyrocketing.
I agree on a lot of "book stuff is better" but it seems like you're bored and wanting to blab right as the season starts. can we wait til its all over then get into the discussion? ya know... cause the title of the thread is... uh .. ahem...
GAME OF THRONES GENERAL (NON-BOOK RELATED) DISCUSSION
Praise for the episodes you mention is specifically for the actions scenes, which almost solely are the responsibility of the director and stunt/VFX departments. Have you read the scripts for Hardhome and BotB? D&D don't go into much detail there, almost all of it was the work of Sapochnik. In terms of writing, it's relatively sparse and what is there doesn't make much sense. Those episodes are like a sporting match or any Hollywood blockbuster; the excitement comes from the kinetic energy and visual feast put on display. It's a rollercoaster, not something to analyze too deeply.
As for the thread topic, how would specifically discussing the show be appropriate for the book thread? I'm talking generally about the show, not specific book details.
How exactly were Catelyn, Robb, Margaery, Sansa, and Sam ruined by the show? I get the arguments for Littlefinger and Varys, but Margaery and Cat were an upgrade in my book on the show, with Robb and Sansa being pretty faithfully adapted (although I think Sansa is more sympathetic in the later books, and we haven't seen her "turn" yet that it seems building toward).
P.S. A number of the shows you name as better... um... I love Rome too. Have a soft spot and nostalgia for it, but the writing is far more hamfisted and "fratty" than Game of Thrones, and rushed. It's a show that works because of the production design, cast, and most of all history it is based on is so rich. The writing was actually quite messy, especially in the second season.
As for Game of Thrones feeling "rushed" compared to the book, have you thought this might be because you're comparing the scenes to the book counterparts? I'll admit I would be taken aback how quickly the show went through scenes from the books in the first two seasons, if only because the books were fresh in my mind when I watched the first two seasons. Really it was always paced pretty well until Season 7, minus the show's admitted weak points (Dorne and the Iron Islands, which they're always in a rush to get through.)
Apologies in advance for the wall of text.
How exactly were Catelyn, Robb, Margaery, Sansa, and Sam ruined by the show? I get the arguments for Littlefinger and Varys, but Margaery and Cat were an upgrade in my book on the show, with Robb and Sansa being pretty faithfully adapted (although I think Sansa is more sympathetic in the later books, and we haven't seen her "turn" yet that it seems building toward).
As for Game of Thrones feeling "rushed" compared to the book, have you thought this might be because you're comparing the scenes to the book counterparts? I'll admit I would be taken aback how quickly the show went through scenes from the books in the first two seasons, if only because the books were fresh in my mind when I watched the first two seasons. Really it was always paced pretty well until Season 7, minus the show's admitted weak points (Dorne and the Iron Islands, which they're always in a rush to get through.)
All of Cat's agency was eliminated. Instead of her being a driving force behind Robb's Rebellion, the show reduces her to a sad, worried mother whose only desire is to see her children. She has no head for tactics, no idea how to help in the fight that is literally all about her family. This somewhat comes down to personal preference, but hating Jon because he's proof of her husband's love/passion for another woman, instead of his being a constant threat to her children's legitimacy is a change for the worst.
Robb marrying for love (willfully disregarding his marriage pact) instead out of a misplace sense of honor does a disservice to the character. The age difference also doesn't help things. He should be young and inexperienced, taking on too much responsibility for someone of his age. It alters the way his rebellion and its actions are viewed, especially when you can't forgive some of his missteps due to his youth.
Margaery is a victim of the change in medium. A lot of her character is left unexplained due to her lacking a POV in the novels, and unfortunately the show makes her agenda and scheming too obvious (the same issue that plagues Littlefinger). Less is more would've been better here, we didn't need as many private scenes with her as we ended up getting. Without material from the book to fall back on, D&D are forced to create stuff from whole cloth and they simply aren't very good at it. At the very least she comes off as wildly anachronistic, especially in season two with her attempted threesome.
The problems with Sansa crop up in the later seasons (starting in the later half of season 4), but the signs were always there. She might have been naive and snobby early on in the books, but she left all of that behind after her father's death. She was always very careful to keep up her "courtesy as a shield", and never made the same mistake twice. And yet on the show, Sansa repeatedly backslides into arrogance and cruelty. It constantly amazed me that she could go through one horrible event after another and still apparently learn nothing. How was marrying the people who butchered her family and potentially giving them heirs "vengeance?" How was her losing all agency and becoming a sexual assault victim character development? Why is she mad at Jon for not listening to her about Ramsay when she really didn't tell him antyhgin he could use, especially the fact that she had an entire army at her beck and call? Why was she still falling for Littlefinger's lies at Winterfell when she already had so much dirt on him by that point? And personally, I was disgusted that she enjoyed watching Ramsay being savagely torn apart by his own dogs. It's the kind of thing Cersei would do.
Sam was never handled properly. They paid lip service to his reasons for coming to the wall, but after his intro monologue he devolved to being the show's comic relief, the sad, fat virgin whose one sole wish is to get laid. He was a convenient source of exposition when needed, but there's so much more to the character that they never even touched. Once he left Castle Black, his rom-com/soap opera narrative became excruciating to watch.
When it comes to GoT and other HBO shows, I guess it comes down to personal taste. I prefer Rome, but that's just me. There are plenty of other shows I could've mentioned, but I tried to stick to similar genre spectacles or large-scale political dramas. My point was that GoT sticks out like a sore thumb, like The Walking Dead being on the same channel as Mad Men, Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul.
Comparing translations of specific scenes is a little nitpicky on my part, I just mentioned it because it was something I noticed on my rewatch. Even when the episode was written by Martin, the adaptions lacked the gravitas and poetry of the novels. Maybe it wasn't just it's truncated form, but a shortcoming in the directing/acting. Again, not a big deal (especially when the show is so much worse when it tries something original).
As for pacing, D&D seem very keen on making everything a struggle so that there's a big payoff at the end, so they force that onto every storyline, whether or not it works. Arbitrarily deciding that episode 8/9 contains the major battle/shock of the season dictates how the rest of the season must unfold, even if certain character arcs don't fit into that mold. So much of seasons 4 & 7 were full of filler due to this nonsensical structuring. Also, for a show that obsessed with surprising the audience, this formulaic approach to storytelling is very obvious. It's why the later seasons were so predictable, even though they were filled with constant fake-outs trying to trick the audience (how many near death experiences can the characters have before you stop caring?).